After reading just 1 thread on the Duke rape thing, I've realized that...

[FormerRepublican]

...we humans are still just animals.

I lived through child sexual abuse. I hid from my father, and tried to fight him off and was overpowered. I live with the consequences of this every day of my life. I have severe PTSD, have suffered severe depression, have attempted suicide multiple times... I still have nightmares all the time, even now, almost 30 years later. My father, before he died, used to say that he never hurt me at all. Or worse, that I wanted what he was doing. He denied it ever happened to everyone, and everyone believed him, despite the fact that he had done it before. That's the delusion of a rapist - I fought him to the point that he went away with severe bruising, but I still "wanted" what he was doing to me. Yeah, right.

In the vast majority of cases, a woman (or a child) has a huge uphill battle in trying to get any kind of justice for what she went through. The deck is stacked against her from the moment she tells anyone what happened. The rapist merely has to deny everything, and everyone believes HIM and not her. Consequently, I personally have more sympathy for those who believe the victim and look toward the accused in askance. Especially since the rape statistics are so horrifying. Yes, I am irrationally inclined toward the viewpoint of a victim - not because I want to deny justice to men, but because I know what a terrible uphill battle ANY victim has in trying to find justice. The deck is stacked for men - why wouldn't I stand up for the underdog who isn't likely to find justice?

In the very little I've read in a DU thread on this issue, I realize that even here, the chances that a victim can find justice is very slim. The deck will always be stacked against her. She will always "want" it, cause it, be somehow to blame for what happened so that we can continue to believe in male innocence and indemnity. I find this so disturbing that I have no words.

For anyone who has any doubts, murder is a far kinder crime than rape or incest. Rape and incest set a victim up for a lifetime of torture and pain, an unending endurance of the brutal knowledge that life is not safe, our body is not wholly our own, and even the most trusted among us can't really be trusted. The world is never the same, nor is a victim.

And what we have to look forward to is endless blame and scorn to protect the myth of male benevolence that all too often is proven to be the myth that it is.

My fear is that all the excuses and finger pointing that I find even here is a reflection of the secret desires of the quantity among us who are more than willing to live out a rape fantasy if they could only get the chance...

I am fortunate to have known men in my life to whom rape is a totally alien concept. I honor these men because they give me hope. I also have known far too many who justify, who automatically blame the victim, who make every excuse for why she was as fault for what happened, and why a man has every right and a woman no rights to her own body. Because of those, I despair for our future. It is a reminder that even here on DU, there are those lurking who are probably rapists, molesters, violent men who are hiding their inclination in average, every day activity. They will continue to play out their denial and delusion, just as my father did until the day he died. And their victims will continue to suffer the lives of the damned, just as I do.

I guess all I really have to say here is think! Think beyond the emotion of a moment, think about the unending suffering a victim endures, think about the horrifying task she would inevitably face to find any kind of justice in a world that really doesn't want to know about her pain and suffering. After all, who wants to be reminded of the monster that lurks within...? Especially if that monster is your husband, brother, father, neighbor, man down the street, priest, the one you trusted the most, maybe even you yourself... It couldn't be him - could it? Life is always safest when the bad man is the outsider, the weirdo that anyone can recognize. But for those of us who have been victimized, we know that the bad man is the regular guy whom no one could ever believe is guilty, so it must be our fault...

Yeah, tell it to a kid who fought for all she's worth to escape the most vile experience a female can endure. Tell it to all the victims, most of whom will never see justice. Even here on DU.

[bloom]

1. Excellent post. Sad though. A lot of truths. nt

[ixion]

2. and pretty lousy animals, at that

we can run fast, we can't fly, we can't see far, we've got no natural protection -- heart and genitals exposed, no fur, no claws, no teeth (to speak of), but the topper is our ability to be cruel to any living thing.

Our conception of cruelty seems to know no bounds. While 'some' {read: very few} people might be good humans, most humans are cruel, evil, dishonest and unethical, IMO.

[Poll_Blind]

9. That literally gave me goosebumps. Tellin' it like it is.

Most of society or civilization, in my opinion, evaporates once resources become scarce. Certianly in present-day America.

PB

[ixion]

54. yep, agreed.

and not just in the US.

I would really like to think humans will one day rise to a level of collective enlightenment (right now, collectively speaking, we've got the disposition of a disturbed third-grader), but if history is any indication, that's just not going to happen. :-(

[RandomKoolzip]

116. Oh, and a fucking dog could invent a light bulb?

Fuck that, I love humanity.

[ronnykmarshall]

120. My cats can perform surgery.

Well not real surgery, but they can draw blood by running across your face.

[HockeyMom]

3. Rich kids

Newsday had article on two of the perps. Both are graduates of New York Catholic Prep schools. One of their fathers is a Wall Street tycoon. Newsday printed a picture of the kid's house, er, MANSION, in Garden City. Geesch. At today's prices, it has to be worth over $5M.

[timber84]

81. And the point of your post is what?

[wakeme2008]

4. that drunken stripper lied...

why are you supporting her.

[KC21304]

11. Are you for real ? Did you even read her post ?

[wakeme2008]

23. I read her post

but that stripper being raped it right up with Saddam's WMD.

[DrunkenMaster]

27. it is difficult for me to put into words

the amount of disgust and horror your two short posts have added to my day. I bet you're a blast at parties.

[IndyOp]

44. Click the 'little person' symbol next to the poster's name - the red one..

And they go away forever.

Ignore is a fine, fine DU option. The DU community is great - there will always be a few who are 'off'. Denial about sexual violence and sexual abuse is a HUGE part of why it is passed on from one generation to the next to the next to the...

:cry:

[wakeme2008]

53. And some ppl still believe Saddam had WMD even after all the

evidence has come out.

Not even ONE piece of evidence supports her claim.

[laheina]

64. I think that you will find that

they would never had issued arrest warrants if there were absolutely no evidence. To think otherwise is illogical. :eyes:

[IndyOp]

78. Actually, there were means to develop WMDs in Iraq, said Chomsky

At 100's of sites that were systematically looted after the US invaded and failed to guard the sites.

AMY GOODMAN: In this first broadcast interview upon publication of his book, Professor Noam Chomsky joins us today from Boston for the hour. We welcome you to Democracy Now!, Noam.

<snip>

JUAN GONZALEZ: Well, Professor Chomsky, in the early parts of the book, especially on the issue of the one characteristic of a failed state, which is its increasing failure to protect its own citizens, you lay out a pretty comprehensive look at what the, especially in the Bush years, the war on terrorism has meant in terms of protecting the American people. And you lay out clearly, especially since the war, the invasion of Iraq, that terrorist, major terrorist action and activity around the world has increased substantially. And also, you talk about the dangers of a possible nuclear -- nuclear weapons being used against the United States. Could you expand on that a little bit?

NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, there has been a very serious threat of nuclear war. It's not -- unfortunately, it's not much discussed among the public. <snip>

And Bush administration policies have, again, consciously been carried out in a way, which they know is likely to increase the threat of terror. The most obvious example is the Iraq invasion. That was undertaken with the anticipation that it would be very likely to increase the threat of terror and also nuclear proliferation. And, in fact, that's exactly what happened, according to the judgment of the C.I.A., National Intelligence Council, foreign intelligence agencies, independent specialists. They all point out that, yes, as anticipated, it increased the threat of terror. In fact, it did so in ways well beyond what was anticipated.

To mention just one, we commonly read that there were no weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq. Well, it's not totally accurate. There were means to develop weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and known to be in Iraq. They were under guard by U.N. inspectors, who were dismantling them. When Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and the rest sent in their troops, they neglected to instruct them to guard these sites. The U.N. inspectors were expelled, the sites were left unguarded. The inspectors continued their work by satellite and reported that over a hundred sites had been looted, in fact, systematically looted, not just somebody walking in, but careful looting. That included dangerous biotoxins, means to hide precision equipment to be used to develop nuclear weapons and missiles, means to develop chemical weapons and so on. All of this has disappeared. One hates to imagine where it's disappeared to, but it could end up in New York.

Friday, March 31st, 2006
EXCLUSIVE...Noam Chomsky on Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy
<http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/31/148254>

Monday, April 3rd, 2006
Noam Chomsky on Iraq Troop Withdrawal, Haiti, Democracy in Latin America and the Israeli Elections

<http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/03/1319200>

[crispini]

69. Thank you for your suggestion.

I can't BELIEVE those two posts. :puke:

[FormerRepublican]

28. I believe that I was supporting victims.

Beyond that, I don't think I have anything to say to you except welcome to my ignore file.

[LostinVA]

80. They are on my Ignore, so I didn't see whatever disgusting posts

They wrote, or who they were. Before the rape threads, I have three people on IGnore. Now... it's unbelievable.

I am so sorry you and other survivors have to read this garbage on her. Garbage written by cowards and bullies.

[DIKB]

47. Evidence?

To support your claims that she lied that is.

I have been falsely accused of sexually assaulting a woman. I had witnesses, and evidence of her lies, the moment she wanted things to stop they did. Until then, she was willing. She lied and said she had been locked in the room, the door had no lock. Based on what she said, what the witnesses saw, her history as a pathological liar, etc. she had no support. People who are guilty, I would assume, want to leave the story in the past, and not hear about it. I know my innocence, and I'm not afraid of talking about it.

Even given my history though, I give people who claim to be rape victims the benefit of the doubt. I've no opinion on the "Duke rape" matter, yet there are a lot of people who have one. I suggest you compile the evidence and make a well-thought out post as to why you believe she lied. If the facts back up your claims, I guarantee you I will kick and vote for your thread, but these snide remarks help no one, and only serve to inflame.

[China_cat]

49. And if there is credible evidence that she lied

I will be one of the first to be yelling about it. Because false accusations hurt the women (and men) who have really been raped like nothing else does.

So far, the only evidence seems to be a bunch of frat boys and their lawyers sneering at what she does in order to raise her kids and try to get an education so she won't have to continue in that profession. Add in that the frat boys are white and she is black and it's pretty plain to see where this is going to go.

[wakeme2008]

51. self deleted I miss read your post

...

[Iris]

67. So, you don't think there should even be a trial?

Because, I may be wrong, but I think that's how they figure out these things in this country. By having a trial.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

77. Not exactly.

A trial is only justified if there's sufficient evidence to make a conviction seem not unlikely.

I don't know whether or not there is in this case - the fact that they've indicted two of the men implies that there probably is - but it's by no means always an inherently absurd position to say that an alleged offence shouldn't even go to trial, because there's insufficient evidence.

[stepnw1f]

100. self deleted

[DrunkenMaster]

15. repulsive

But you do a fine (if unintentional) job of proving the original poster's point. Nice work, genius.

[TorchTheWitch]

18. Exactly what I thought

God, I could vomit.

[lildreamer316]

22. This stripper; and the other one on this thread; thank you--NOT. n/t

[Nobody]

30. Let me ask you a question

Suppose you are a computer technician. You make about a good rate for your company fixing software problems. You drive around the city going to people's homes and businesses fixing their software problems.

You're a popular person with a lot of friends and a close family. Suppose you allow your friends and family to tell you their computer-related problems and then you offer to fix some of the ones you can control for free. They don't abuse your generosity and some of them with plumbing skills or carpentry skills help you with simple house repairs in exchange.

Now suppose you are driving down the road in your clearly-marked Computer Repair Tech vehicle and a carjacker jumps into the passenger seat, whips out a gun, and orders you to drive to a specified location. It's the carjacker's home and the carjacker has a computer software problem. At gunpoint you are ordered to fix the computer and not allowed to leave until the computer works to the satisfaction of the carjacker.

Did the carjacker commit a crime? Why or why not?

[dalaigh lllama]

61. Good analogy

Thank you for the thought-provoking and most clarifying post.

[file83]

What, dare I ask, is your point?

If you are trying to relate this to the rape case, I think you are lurking in dangerous territory. And if I need to explain why, you need to think harder.

[Greyhound]

40. We are so fortunate that we cannot physically reach each other here

or we would be going at it right now, you ass.

I have no opinion yet as to the guilt of innocence or the players as I believe in the foundation of our legal system, but to post this tripe in response to this gut-wrenching thread is proof that you are an utter waste of protoplasm.

[tatertop]

42. How often have I thought that

At any rate, thank you

[wakeme2008]

55. What IF

the races were changed, and it was a white stripper and black college men, and all the evidence (DNA/Photo/etc) pointed to the black men being innocent. IMHO they would be the ones getting the support of DU....

[Connie_Corleone]

63. "all the evidence"

We haven't heard all the evidence in this case. We've only been hearing from the defense attorney. It's pretty ignorant to come to a conclusion that the college student who was working her way through college as an exotic dancer is lying based on hearing from one side.

You do know that "all the evidence" doesn't come out until a trial don't you?

Time for the ignore button.

[wakeme2008]

73. true I do not have time for stupid ppl

ignore button is good.

[LittleClarkie]

72. Judge and jury now, are we?

You have no idea unless you were there.

Why do you prejudge?

[Bridget Burke]

97. "It is a reminder that even here on DU,....

...there are those lurking who are probably rapists, molesters, violent men who are hiding their inclination in average, every day activity."

Unfortunately, all too true.

[KingFlorez]

104. You were there?

I didn't realize you were there and saw what happened. I'm sick of people blaming the victim when it's obvious something happened.

[smacky44]

114. "Drunken stripper?" It's NOT easy for any woman to report being raped.

So, in my mind, to make up a story about being raped (although I know it happens) would be a really difficult thing especially knowing the profession and circumstances that put you in the situation. So for this reason, I do believe the allegation of rape or some kind of brutal sexual attack.

Because the victim may have tested positive for alcohol does not mean that it was ingested voluntarily or that some other drug was not involved. We seem to find it pretty easy to believe that a "nice, young white college girl" was slipped something in her drink and that she was the victim of "date rape" than it is to believe that such a thing could happen to a black "stripper" or exotic dancer. I do hope that the truth will be sorted out in this case and guilty parties punished. But whatever happens, this young girls life is going to be really tougher on her than we can imagine.

[BIgJohn83]

5. Thanks for your post... how terribly true...n/t

[MuseRider]

6. Me too

and it is often the reason I stay out of these threads. I am 52 years old and have never felt safe a day in my life. My father has been dead for 33 years and I still jump when I hear something behind me. Back then there was nothing you could do, you were stuck. I don't think it is often much better now. It does tend to make one strong and self reliant as you age but still, to feel safe and cherished without fear is something that many of us will never know.

Thank you for your post, it takes courage to stick yourself out there even here.

[xmas74]

7. I wish my friend had lived to speak to someone like you.

She committed suicide at the age of 19. We found out from her brother (who had been institutionalized for a number of years) that their father had been molesting them both since before they entered kindergarten.

She never told anyone and she felt that there was no way out. If there had been someone out there that she felt she could tell, that would understand, maybe things would be different and she'd still be here today.

[Bobbieo]

8. That drunken stripper lied!

How do you know she lied. WERE YOU THERE?????

[Lars39]

10. In your hurry to smear a mother of 2 children,

you posted in the wrong place.:eyes:

[TorchTheWitch]

13. Um, speaking of posting in a hurry

maybe it would be a good idea to actually read someone's post before determing if anyone's being smeared?

Just a thought.

[Lars39]

26. I did read his post (#8).

Describing her as a 'drunken stripper' *is* smearing her.

[TorchTheWitch]

36. no, I mean READ the post

Not just the header...

Post number 8 reads...

That drunken stripper lied! (header)
How do you know she lied. WERE YOU THERE????? (post)


See?

[salin]

33. I think it is a case of responding to the wrong post

the content of the post seems to challenge a different post (starting with the same or a similar heading) on the thread - but linked to the wrong one.

[TorchTheWitch]

38. it's a case of only reading the header

That drunken stripper lied! (header)
How do you know she lied. WERE YOU THERE????? (post)

See? He/she was responding to the right post (#8) but apparently didn't read past the header. I see that a lot at DU. I find it to be good practice to read an ENTIRE post before responding to it... you know, so you know what it is you're responding to.

[Lars39]

50. Sorry, I'm trying to also cook supper. :^)

There also should have been a sarcasm smiley.

second edit: looks like he/she was responding to Post #4. Maybe they're cooking supper, too. :)

[TorchTheWitch]

57. Are you cooking enough for me?

I hope so. :)

[Lars39]

60. There's plenty, but it's simple fare...

In my best Granpa Jones' voice: We're havin' scrambled eggs, baked potatoes and the best ham this side of the county line! :hi:

[ronnykmarshall]

121. Yuuuuuum YUM!

[xmas74]

14. If you are referring to my friend,

she was not a mother and she was not a dancer. She was a 19 year old chemistry major and worked in the cafeteria as her workstudy.

[salin]

34. I think the poster wasn't responding to your post

but to the 'wakemeup...' post that brought the Duke story onto this thread - victim of mis-linking, I think.

[xmas74]

39. I'd say so too.

But maybe it will bring attention to making sure of what you are linking to before you post.

[salin]

45. I *hate it* when I find I have done that.

does make one more careful, via the experience.

[xmas74]

48. I did it once

and experienced the flamewar of the century. Now I'm much more careful.

Nothing like getting flamed as a noob to make posting a bad experience!

[guinivere]

12. Oh my. I don't know what to say.

:hug: I wish you and other victims peace.

[cali]

16. I appreciate your post

and the courage it took to write it. I also agree with most of what you said, but I can't sign on to this:

"For anyone who has any doubts, murder is a far kinder crime than rape or incest"

Death is final. You don't get the opportunity to heal from it. Murder is worse.

[Cerridwen]

19. For some rape survivors

each day is a death by inches. Not all. But some.

[FormerRepublican]

21. Having lived through the experiences I have, I have to say that you're...

...wrong on that. It's because murder is quickly over that makes it kinder.

I think anyone who's been subjected to that kind of thing would tell you that murder is kinder. And the impossibility of enduring torture is why so many prisoners of war and concentration camp inhabitants end up dying before they're freed, even if the conditions they're subjected to are not in themselves life threatening. Humans are simply not psychologically designed to endure torture. Inevitably, we choose death as a viable alternative. Which is why so many victims turn to suicide when they feel they can endure no more...

[cali]

31. Sorry, I can't agree..

Not every woman who's been subject to sexual abuse by her father or an uncle or brother, believes that murder is kinder. And yes I do know enough to make that statement. Also regarding your statement about prisoners of war and concentration victims, please provide evidence that what you're claiming is accurate. Humans are more resilient than you're giving them credit for, and wide number of variables figure into any given victim's situation and what ensues.

[FormerRepublican]

41. Views formed through different experiences. And different brain...

...chemistries. Walk a mile in my shoes, and all that, my friend. I agree that there is a wide disparity in the way that people respond to these circumstances, since humans are not all the same. Just as not all victims end up with PTSD, while others get severe cases.

Here's some info on prisoners of war:

""I would like to emphasize that the Fukuokan camp was without question, excepting the hell ships, the worst experience of all which was probably partly due to the fact that we arrived in a very distressful physical and mental condition after having been bombed and sunk on two ships and having narrowly escaped being torpedoed on the third ship, and without food or water sufficient to sustain life for many days. Contrary to expectation, we did not receive adequate food or medical attention and I personally had approximately 23 streptococcic infections on my legs and body which were running with pus and blood and I was refused any form of gauze or cloth to cover them. There is no question but what many who died here, died from mental distress in a defeated attitude, as we had about reached our rope's end in hopes. There was no excuse whatsoever for our buildings not being heated as there were coal mines nearby and we were willing even to mine the coal if necessary, that is, those of us who were able to provide such fuel. Unsanitary conditions and body lice, added to the discomfort and ultimate death of many of the prisoners there. I feel that the Camp Commander of this camp is directly responsible for not having taken action to save the lives of these men. I feel sure that their lives could have definitely been saved by just a little effort. Many men left this camp who were hardly strong enough to stand alone."

http://home.comcast.net/~winjerd/Page02.htm

[cali]

46. That's not evidence

it's an anecdote. And, again let me point out that you don't know what my experience is. I don't want to bicker about this. We agree that different people respond differently, and I still maintain that murder is a worse crime.

[Sal Minella]

25. You think you can "heal" from incest? Think again. It's more like

being murdered over and over, again and again, day after day, year after year. Murder only happens once, and it's over with. Much easier.

[cali]

29. Um

You don't know what I've been through, and i'm not about to spell it out. Let''s just leave it at yes, I believe you can heal from incest and torture and nearly anything but death. Obviously that isn't to say that all victims of such crimes heal, or that those that do don't carry terrible scars, but they're alive. I's not like being murdered every day for obivious reasons. And I am NOT minimizing the suffering of incest victims. To be utterly corny about it'; where there's life, there's hope. Dead is dead.

[FormerRepublican]

35. My point was that sometimes death is easier.

It's why people who are suffering from terminal illnesses or severe disabilities choose suicide - they feel death is a better alternative than constant suffering. It's hard to value life when life is just so freaking HARD!

It's that alternative that a victim has to fight against to have any kind of life, and it's not easy when you have constant reminders, such as PTSD flashbacks.

It's a matter of endurance - and easier said than done. Hope is something victims struggle for but can't always find. It's the constant struggle with the beast that makes death (and murder) seem like an easier alternative. You get tired of fighting for life.

Many victims struggle for life every day of their life.

Maybe this is something that only victims who go through it can really understand. And it's counterbalanced by an overwhelming desire to live and have a decent life, which is the ultimate irony. You get two sides of the coin fighting each other. Some days one side is on top, some days the other...

Unfortunately, treatment doesn't always fix it. Even if treatment is "successful", life stresses can bring it all back in full blown color...

[H3Dakota]

74. Might I suggest...

you leave it at "let's agree that we disagree on this one aspect".

Each person is unique; each person's experiences in life are unique. How one recovers from these life experiences is also unique. For some, yes - death may have been kinder. For others, including yourself, that is not the case. Simply because it is not the case for you does not mean that is the case for everyone.

I grew up with an alcoholic parent - I do not drink, I don't care for it outside of a glass of wine on special occasions. I have a friend who also grew up with an alcoholic friend - he is an alcoholic today. Same experiences, totally different outcomes. We each of us came out of the experience with totally different beliefs, just as you & the OP came out of your experiences with differing beliefs. My beliefs & feelings are different from my friend - but I have no right telling him that how he lives his life or how he feels is wrong. It is HIS life, HIS feelings and I have no right trying to argue him into feeling the same way that I do - I would be wasting my breath if I were to try, anyway. His beliefs are right for him and mine are right for me.

Same applies here - your beliefs are right for you and the OP's beliefs are right for her.

Peace...

[Ariana Celeste]

106. Speak for yourself.

Not all of us are the same yanno. :eyes:

I refuse to be a victim for the rest of my life. I have a good life now, regardless of whatever happened in my past. Some of us are lucky and can heal and move on and live normal healthy lives.

I'm sorry that it isn't the case for you; I hope that you can heal someday.

[0007]

17. Very good post. But in reality nothing has changed in the last

2000 years. People are just as greedy, just as vicious and just as ignorance. Money still rules the world.

[TorchTheWitch]

20. I just have no words

This is probably the most moving and powerful posts I've ever read here.

:hug:

[China_cat]

24. I believe we saw the end of any gains women

might have made in bringing rapists to justice when the judge in the Kobe Bryant case allowed the victim's name to be published (could even say he managed it since the leak came out of his office) and they made her sexual history a major part of the case. That gave the signal that it's ok once again to give a wink and a nudge because 'boys will be boys' and girls really mean yes when they say no...and if they aren't virgins they don't have a right to say no in the first place.

[marions ghost]

43. yes

anyone who thinks these high profile cases don't have an impact on local cases is dreaming.

[seabeyond]

58. there was a lot of horrible in jsutice system with rape, but that.....

was so very very over the top in disgusting and we the people allowed it to happen

[LostinVA]

88. I agree -- what was done to that young women was medieval and

very, very cruel.

[DrunkenMaster]

32. thank you for the insightful comments

but I'm going back to my original stance and will stay away from all these threads. There are so many really horrible commentaries posted that I can feel them polluting my emotional environment like a toxic oil slick.

[Moosepoop]

37. Polluting your emotional environment????

These "horrible commentaries" are like a "toxic oil slick" to your "emotional environment"?

By all means, go back to your original stance, go anywhere -- just go.

We wouldn't want you to "waste your beautiful mind". :wow:

[WildEyedLiberal]

52. I think he's talking about a particular reply to this thread

Somehow, rape threads always bring out the worst dregs of humanity, the evil woman-hating slime.

[LostinVA]

90. self delete

[Moosepoop]

75. Oh, my! DrunkenMaster, I sincerely apologize!!!

You linked your response to the OP, so I thought the horrible commentaries you were referring to were the personal histories of rape, such as the OP's. I thought you were saying that these first-hand accounts were a source of pollution!! That's why I responded the way I did. My misunderstanding, and I truly do apologize. :blush:


Thanks, WildEyedLiberal, for pointing out my mistake! :thumbsup:

[WildEyedLiberal]

107. No prob.

We ALL do that sometimes. Especially in huge long unwieldy threads like this one, it's easy to lose track of who is saying what to whom and to what a post is referring. :thumbsup:

[KitchenWitch]

56. Excellent post - thank you for sharing your experience

I was molested by an adult relative when I was eight. Yeah, it was my fault :sarcasm:

[treestar]

59. It is not worse than murder.

Claiming that is trolling for sympathy to an absurd degree.

Those who have lost their lives are to be grateful they did and weren't raped? Please.

And not every charge is true, that doesn't mean every charge is false.

What is it with rape accusations? They can't all be true. Why do we have to accept them all as true or be considered evil? It's no different from the witch hunt.

I suppose I can't point out it is better to come out alive than to be dead without being accused of approving of rape somehow?

What is it about this that causes people to abandon all reason? If it must be personal and you can see it no other way, then what if some man you loved were accused of rape? And you didn't believe he did it? Why not? Shouldn't you, if all accusations are true?

There are many ways people suffer, too. I can feel much sorrier for the cancer victim who won't make it than a healthy person who was raped. I feel much worse for those who are starving than for a person who lives in a wealthy country who was raped. And this has to mean I approve of rape? No, I don't think so.

[FormerRepublican]

62. So speaks someone who has no experience with the issue.

Perhaps you should wander around a mental hospital where patients who suffer from the after-effects of rape and incest are attempting to deal with the psychological consequences before you make judgements. Perhaps you should read up on one of my particular curse - complex post traumatic stress disorder:

http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/facts/specific/fs_complex_ptsd.html
http://suicideandmentalhealthassociationinternational.org/commptsdsym.html

Perhaps you should look up the suicide rates for victims to understand the effects of severe trauma.

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/Readings/attemptedSuicide.html

And while you're at it, read up on what doctors have to say about it:

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic527.htm
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/463959?mpid=21519

Welcome to my ignore file.

[marions ghost]

65. just being able to write

your story tells me you are so much stronger now, and can be an inspiration to others. PTSD from this kind of trauma is very real, but people who have never experienced it find it very hard to understand. They don't understand the fear of every shadow, the jump at every little visual reminder. Even memories can trigger panic. In my experience at universities I have known of many rapes, including several in which the college student victim was raped and killed. So I have a feel for what you have gone through, though yours involves the betrayal of family, which is especially hard at an early age.

This is a fantasy, but I wish there was a place where victims of this kind of abuse could go, away from the world, sort of a retreat...where they could experience being completely safe for awhile --there are spiritual retreat places that serve this purpose, but I'm talking more just a women's haven. A place of renewal for those who have been traumatized (for any reason). Wouldn't be a place for talking about the past, just a place to be yourself --free of that particular kind of fear of predation. The experience of being in a place where you feel completely safe from any form of human aggression is so rare, it's almost a religious experience in itself (I had this experience only once). There is a wonderful renewal that comes from this. This is a place that is different than even one's own home, which may feel safe but you still don't have the freedom to be out in nature and it's more like a prison. There is something about feeling safe in a place away from home that is healing.

[Iris]

68. You know, rape used to be a capital crime.

And there's lots of ways of killing someone besides, er, actually killing them.

And you're a sick one if you think a woman (or man or child) who has been raped should be able to move on simply by saying, "Ah, well! At least I don't have terminal cancer."

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FormerRepublican]

84. Lord, what an ignorant fool you are. Welcome to my ignore file.

[raccoon]

87. It was very courageous of you to post what you did.

Your response to that poster was great.

Don't let them get you down! The world is full of insensitive people, and there are also kind, sensitive people out there.

[LostinVA]

92. What a nasty, cruel, ignorant statement

How dare you. Seriously. Shame.

Ignore.

What nasty, nasty responses to this brave poster. I hope no one you love ever gets raped...

[qanda]

96. You have to be kidding!!!!!!!!

I haven't said anything up to this point, but this is so over the line that I can't believe it hasn't been deleted. Simply unbelievable.

[Bridget Burke]

99. How can one be "empowered" to remain bitter & broken?

The OP was at least able to recount her experience. She is getting on with her life as best she can.

Do you regard "tea & sympathy" as a Liberal failing?

[PetraPooh]

113. No ma'am, I didn't and don't attach any label like "liberal" nor

"conservative" to this sympathy seeking pathology; it seems to cross all party affiliations, genders, races, sexual orientations, and so on.

[Bridget Burke]

115. Well, then you will be happy to hear that I have no sympathy...

For your opinions.

[PetraPooh]

117. Don't need nor want any so we're good.

[WildEyedLiberal]

108. What an utterly disgusting thing to say.

"Tea and sympathy?"

Wow, I hope I get raped, too, so that everyone will feel sorry for me and bring me tea! Sounds like a good deal to me! :sarcasm:

Is that what you really think this is about? Really? Repulsive.

It's appalling to me that this comment has not been deleted.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FormerRepublican]

86. Your compassion overwhelms me!

:sarcasm:

I think the whole point of my post is that this type of experience screws you up in the head. And you prove my point about revictimization quite well.

Welcome to my ignore file.

[Cats Against Frist]

89. There is a grand canyon of difference between saying that

"rape screws up your head," or that it is a painful and traumatic experience, and proclaiming, outright, that rape is "worse than death."

[LostinVA]

93. Seriously -- don't respond to them -- they are getting off on it

Let us take care of it. Put them on Ignore. The hell with their nastiness.

[Cats Against Frist]

102. An ignore list only works if you USE it

Can you PLEASE put me on your ignore list, instead of continuing to show up at my posts and ramp up animosity toward me?

[PetraPooh]

118. Well, it can, but many people experience "this type of experience"

and manage to NOT be screwed up in the head. Me, for example. I have had certainly much worse situations in my life than the numerous rapes that occurred on me. Some by my own carelessness and promiscuity, some by familial/friend of family types which is probably what led to my carelessness and promiscuity. I am not screwed up in the head, I instead became smarter and learned to defend myself. There are so many scary and harmful things that happen in ones life, it seems to me odd that rape is so focused on as a non-recoverable issue. For example, upon climbing up on a chair, I fell, caught my leg in the rungs and totally destroyed my knee. The recovery much longer and much more painful that rape (which in my earliest case was actually quite gentle) or being beaten by my father to the point of blood and bruises; yet I still use chairs to reach what I need. Same thing when I slid down a shale hill while hiking; lots of damage, panic, and fear but I still go hiking across the same shale hill. I don't fear chairs or hills, or freak out from any related PTSD. With that in mind, I refuse to let other physical issues become emotional, long term hardships; and rape and beatings are primarily physical unless one equates sex with love and I don't. BUT you are sure welcome to connect your emotional well being to rape if you choose, and I will compare it to my experience and find it the victim's choice, not the survivors choice. I wish for you the strength to not feel that way as soon as you can muster it, though, because feeling like you do about any negative issues from the past must suck.

[jeanarrett]

123. Oh, wow, just wow.

Well, good on you. So you learned to wall it all off as a "physical" experience. Yes, it certainly was that, in the most basic of ways. I think your head is screwed on sideways, but that's just my opinion. You need psychotherapy. Obviously, if you believe that your promiscuity and whatever other rotten things happened to you because of the sexual things that happened to you, "made you smarter" then you haven't really gotten there yet have you? And for God's sake, the chair didn't ram it up your ass and demand that you take it and that you loved it anyway did it? What an incredibly stupid analogy. AND! It has nothing to do with 'EQUATING SEX WITH LOVE." Most little kids don't even know about sex, so how could they equate the two in the first place? It's about TRUST and SECURITY AS A SMALL CHILD when you have NO VOICE! They are bigger, stronger, meaner. They feed you. You are at their mercy. I'm positive the OP would love to base her emotional reality on something else, but guess what? It happened. So did yours. You chose to get mean and defend yourself, and frankly, buy into denial. Good for you. Hope it works out for you.

[LostinVA]

91. What right do you have to insult this poster???

She was brave enough to open up and give her POV. She isn't "trolling for sympathy." Isn't that rather judgmental? And, for some, rape and incest IS worse than being murdered. What right have you to say a rape survivor doesn't suffer as much as someone else? What right? NONE. 2% of rape claims are false. TWO. And it's a horribly unreported crime.

Why do you only focus on the 2%, not the 98% of victims? Why do you insult and judge a rape survivor? Why do you think you have a right to attack Simeon like that? Seriously, I want to know -- why? It is uncalled for.

[Bridget Burke]

98. The OP was not "trolling for sympathy"

She was just recounting her own experience. In her opinion, rape is worse than murder. It may not be everyone's opinion but I see no reason to attack her over it. Grown women with a good support system may be more able to deal with the aftermath of rape than someone who has suffered repeated child abuse. Still, I would not tell any rape victim to "get over it."

Do you have a limited store of compassion? That is, if you empathize with a survivor of child abuse--you can't care for a cancer victim? The more compassion you show, the more you have.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

66. Very well said. Beware the loons who come out in response to

this kind of honesty, those who would hurt you and the rest of us again by denying your reality or perpetuating other dumb ideas.

Intentionally or not.

Bullies sniff out vulnerability and intensify attacks.

Read "A Fractured Mind" by Robert Oxnam for a well written story by a minor celebrity, not a really huge celebrity. But still someone well known to a lot of famous folks.

[LostinVA]

94. They are already out

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

105. This is true.

[williesgirl]

70. I know what you've gone through. My 1st husband abused our daughter and

she's living the same nightmare you've described. Proving something 20 years later (she's now 23) against a "wealthy, pillar of the community" is not just uphill, it's probably not going to happen. Like you, she's attempted suicide numerous times - the last time she almost succeeded.

There's a little light at the end of our tunnel. She's got a great psychiatrist now (for over 5 years). Sees her twice weekly. I'm happy to say the last suicide attempt was over 2 years ago, thank God.

Her abuse occurred when I left my first husband. He naturally had visitation rights. Luckily for her, I remarried some years later. My husband was able to show her that not all men are evil. She loved him and he showed her what paternal love really is. Unfortunately, we lost him suddenly to a heart attack at only 53 almost 6 years ago.

She is a beautiful, sensitive, troubled young woman. She trusts no man but went through a period in adolescence where she equated sex with affection. Almost destroyed her. She still fears that tendency and has cowered from any real relationship because of it.

I'll keep you in my prayers and hope you'll do the same for us. Good luck.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

76. Wait till the jury come back.

You, like about 70-80% of the posters I've seen on the subject, seem to be (it's not quite clear that you are - if you're not I apologise - but that's certainly the impression your post gave me) assuming that the woman is certainly telling the truth and her alleged attackers are certainly guilty.

Nearly all the remaining 20/30% of the posts I've read have been assuming that she's certainly lying, which I have even less sympathy for.

Virtually no-one has been saying what needs to be said, which is that we don't, and can't, know, and that it's none of our business. We don't have enough evidence, and even if we did our pontificating could only make things worse.

I agree that rape is never, in any circumstances justifiable. I think that cases of women making up allegations of rape are very rare indeed, but not completely unknown, and that *on the evidence publically available* we certainly can't be sure that this isn't one of them. I think that whether or not this woman was raped, publicising her case further will a) make it harder for her to go back to a normal life, and b) discourage other women from coming forwards with claims of rape: even supportive comments are worse than none, I suspect.

They will also further blacken the name of the accused; we *don't* know enough to be certain that they're guilty yet. I've seen lots of posts to the effect that this proves that they (or in some cases all/most men/sportsmen) are all animals; the time to draw that conclusion will be *after* they're convicted, *if* they are.

Until then, the least said about this sorry mess, the better for all concerned in it, I think.

[LostinVA]

95. She was raped -- the SANE's medical exam shows that

So, regardless of who the rapists are, she is a rape victim, and that is what we are responding to: rape victims being treated like garbage. I want the true rapists to be convicted and off the street, and am hoping atrial will show who they are.

[LostinVA]

79. Thanks for your post -- I have been fighting for you

and all the women I know (thank the gods not me) who have been molested and/or raped.

Some of the people on these threads literally make me sick. Excusing certain types of rape, blaming a woman for her rape, etc. I am convinced that SOME of these posters know this subject as a primary source... I am also appalled some of these posts have been allowed to stand, as they are the most cruel, misogynistic, sociopathic things I have ever read... let alone on DU.

Cyber hugs and peace.

83. I hope you find healing 100% n/t

[Evergreen Emerald]

85. Thank you

You opened your heart for us to have an opportunity to better understand our societal failings and the life-long consequences of those failings.

I am so sorry that you had to endure those horrible acts by someone who was supposed to risk his life to protect you. My heart goes out to you.

I work with victims of sexual assault, and I know that they could use support and guidance from someone who completely understands what they are going through. You should consider joining a victim's advocacy group.

I am also sorry you have had to endure the ugliness of some of these posts on DU. I am constantly amazed that people still have such hostility for victims.

take care

[stepnw1f]

101. Peace

Thank you for sharing. I know it helps others. And ignore the sociopaths here...

[helderheid]

103. Thank you so much for this post.

One of the things that has occurred from my abuse is my constant paranoia for my own children. There's nothing more that I could say that you've already touched upon. :hug:

[Mythsaje]

109. This is SUCH a hot-button issue...

And I think those people who usually post on such threads are caught in something of a trap. The women to whom it's happened have a personal emotional investment in the case, while some men draw back and say "God, I hope it's for real, and if it isn't, that I'm never falsely accused."

I honestly think that is what motivates some men to respond so negatively to the whole scenario. They're scared to death of being falsely accused... I think it's as difficult for the average guy to understand the whole rape scenario and its aftermath as it is for the average woman (esp. rape survivors) to understand why this fear resonates so strongly in many men. Rape can destroy a person. But, for all intents and purposes, a false accusation can destroy a person as well. Different kind of destruction, yes, but still something to consider. It may be an irrational fear, but as an arachnaphobe with social anxiety, I'm pretty familiar with the dynamics of irrational fear.

I don't think ALL of these guys are trying to be offensive. Some probably are. But one has to recognize that there's a certain element of fear in their denials...if ANYONE can be falsely accused and dragged through the mud, it could happen to them as well. This isn't anything any guy wants to happen to him. Not only would he have to go through the humiliation of a public trial, he'd be sure to be castigated (if not verbally castrated) here at DU. A fate worse than debt.

Now I definitely tend to believe the woman in this particular instance. Her being a stripper doesn't count against her (though that whole industry is as corrupt as any, as far as I'm concerned--it exploits both men and women, in my view), but those accused being rich white frat boy types DOES, I'm afraid, count against them.

Ironic, but I'm more prejudiced against spoiled rich brats than I am strippers. This said, I have to take into consideration my own prejudices in this case and realize I know very little about it. Was she raped? According to the report, she was. Do I know who's responsible? Hell, no. I just hope a court of law will actually serve justice in this case and make the culprit pay.

I THINK this comment is diplomatic enough to be flameproof, but I've been surprised before.

edited to fix typos. Twice.

[FormerRepublican]

110. Please do not respond to this thread. I have requested that the admins

delete it. Thank you.

[Ksec]

111. I disagree

In other words Dems are much more likely to not blame the victim.

Myself, I try to be openminded. I wont convict anyone, but I wont defend them either. A fair shake is all I ask. I see lots of people willing to convict without seeing the evidence. I see lots of people willing to give the accused the benefit of the doubt but thats human nature.

[Miss Chybil]

112. I'll wait for a verdict before I say anything.

Actually, I probably won't say anything then. I only hope the truth prevails, whatever it is.

[Frank Cannon]

119. You are wise beyond your years

I haven't posted anything about this case, because I know as much about it as you and everybody else: NOTHING.

Seems like we have a court system in this country that's supposed to sort that stuff out. At least...in the country I ONCE knew.

[jeanarrett]

122. Oh. My. God. I am so totally WITH YOU.

I have never been raped. Your post was powerful and right on.

We are hearing every day more about how child pornography is the BIGGEST industry in the world today and the most profitable because the cost to manufacture it is so low-- even infants, toddlers, boys and girls, it is SICK, SICK, SICK.

This kind of knowledge makes me almost suicidal to hear and read about it because I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT!!! It makes one feel so hopeless and helpless.

There are evil, vile people in this world and for child pornographers, molesters, rapists, etc., I hope there is some special kind of hell for them somewhere.

Bless you, FR - for your pain and your story.