Your independence means nothing without uniting against a common enemy.

[Just Me]

Pragmatically speaking, all those who cling to "independent" ideals will NEVER have relevance if we fail to unite against those who seek to squash those ideals.

Listen to me. There is a clear and defined and united enemy against our independent ideals, our freedom to pursue basic human and environmental interests. That united enemy is OBVIOUS, I repeat, OBVIOUS, and that enemy's evil cannot POSSIBLY be shifted to all Democrats or the Democratic party,....unless you are delusional and are incapable of accepting the obvious.

It's INSANE to suggest rejection of the Democratic party, at this time. If you don't comprehend that insanity,...it's because you ARE insane with your own ideology or beliefs. Trust me on this. I have some advance education in psychology.

What I suggest, for ALL OUR BEST INTERESTS, is to defeat a common and OBVIOUS enemy. That enemy is the neocons and the Republican party that tags on their temporary (hopefully) dominance over this nation.

Think, act, succeed. Emote, act, fail.

Understand? If not, why?

[BIgJohn83]

1. amen...

a third party will still do nothing but dilute the votes of the two major parties... Vote Dem and get rid of the Repukes! Even if you consider yourself to be a Greenie, or a Libertarian, or a little space man from Mars!!! VOTE DEMOCRATIC, Send them the biggest landslide in history!

[Time for change]

2. I certainly agree

I believe that we are now facing the greatest threat to our democracy since the 1776, and a more ruthless enemy at that.

[Just Me]

12. Sometimes, I think,....

,...our society's push to be "independent" has hurt us all. I also believe there is a blind faith in our "individual" power that is simply,...false. That "blind faith" is evident not only in those who pursue the myth of the "American Dream" but also shows itself in the advocates for humanity and democracy and equality.

WE CAN'T ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING,...ALONE!!!! WE CAN ACCOMPLISH GREAT THINGS,...TOGETHER!!!!

Our country has lost that sense of power because our society focuses too damn much on delusions of self-satisfaction, even in pursuing noble causes.

[bemildred]

3. I intend to cling to critical thinking, no matter what. nt

[Just Me]

8. I know. I am thankful.

:hug:

Now, to help others to apply that "critical thinking" as best we can.

That's the challenge.

[bemildred]

26. I thought you were "Just Me"?

Why the advocacy for lemming like behavior?

[Just Me]

29. Huh?

:shrug:

OH!!!!

:rofl:

oops

[Selatius]

4. I'd love to reject the Democratic Party, but I can't.

To suggest otherwise is to suggest the unlikely. Why? Because the system was set up to punish a population for voting 3rd party. This is the nature of our two-party system.

I never did like it. Saying the two-party system is adequate to represent the diverse views of a population is saying the Titanic was a success because there were enough lifeboats for half the people on board.

Having said that, though, all I am left with is the Democratic Party. I am in the party not by choice but by necessity. I can say that if we lived in a multi-party representative democracy, I would've left the Democratic Party a long time ago.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. The "enemy" is the system. The one-party/two-branches that we have.

I'll be voting issues, not the "good cop, bad cop" choices we are given by the capitalists/nationalists.

[Selatius]

6. You hit the nail on the head n/t

[Just Me]

9. I have ALWAYS been oriented on issues.

Issues don't matter, either,...if our common enemy isn't defeated.

That is just the way it is, right now.

Once that common enemy is defeated (and I mean DEFEATED not by mere elections,...once they are defeated, politically, we HAVE to demand they face JUSTICE),...THEN, only then will some sense of true democracy and justice take hold.

Please, don't impose the "good cop, bad cop" thingy on a pragmatic line of thought. It doesn't fit.

:hug: thanks

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. The issues "don't matter"?

Then, why the hell vote at all? Why bother with politics whatsoever if the issues "don't matter"?

The last I checked, issues are what politics are all about. Or, is just winning the point of politics?

Your "pragmatic line of thought", pragmatically insures that the system of "good cop, bad cop" bosses will continue.

[Just Me]

16. Issues don't matter if the party in charge which doesn't give a damn,...

,...about those issues remain in power.

Does that make sense to you?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Not when the "party in power" is the same party despite the brand name.

[Just Me]

20. You fail to acknowledge the members who are fighting for our rights.

Why?

Why do you doom ALL those who have taken a stand on our behalf to the party.

You simultaneously empower the party that doesn't give a fuck about you or us.

Why?

Why do you conquer hope and advance destruction?

Why?

It's not rational.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. I'm not "dooming" anybody. What in the hell are you talking about?

Nobody's telling you not to vote the way you want to. You're the one advocating that everybody march lockstep to support the oligarchy.

You "hope" that the Dems will be better than the Repugs. So do I. And, I'll be voting for the Dems that best represent the issues that I believe in.

I won't be voting for anyone that supports things like war, discrimination, racism, or curbs on the rights of human beings.

No matter what letter( ) they put behind their name.

[Just Me]

24. I am advocating that we unite against a common enemy. That's not "bad".

I am not asking anyone to sacrifice, anything, but rather protect their freedom to advocate their positions.

Throwing out that "march lockstep" shit,....really pisses me off,....as if it is a BAD THING!!!

Civil and human rights accomplished to date would NEVER HAVE HAPPENED without solidarity and unity!!! I hope like hell you recognize that FACT!!!!

If you are against uniting with others, fine. Be by your damn self and see what you accomplish by yourself.

Meanwhile, there are many who NEED the solidarity and unity of "like-minded" basic human advocates TO DEFEAT A COMMON ENEMY, A PARTY THAT ACTS AGAINST HUMAN INTERESTS!!!!

You,...do as you will. You reject solidarity and unity against a common enemy, so be it.

[Selatius]

18. Would you sacrifice gay rights and women's rights for victory?

Where does one balance the need to win with the need to stand up for firmly held beliefs?

[Just Me]

22. I am sacrificing nothing. Those who guarantee a party-of-hate/destruction

,...power over this nation sacrifices everything by pulling support for a party-of-variety.

It's not about balance. It's about reality.

Do as you wish. I simply ask that you deal with reality and join against our common enemy such that a window of hope can be created to pursue, meaningfully, your ideals,...my ideals.

But, you will do as you please, and I accept that.

[Selatius]

23. I deal with reality every day I think about joining the Greens, but...

you know what? I can't join them because the second I do, I get railed by folks like you for splitting the vote. That's the nature of the beast.

So when I went to vote for Kerry back in '04 even though he supports free trade and voted for NAFTA and voted for the IWR, I understand why so many people don't vote anymore.

How the hell you think we can win by voting for people who stab America's working class in the back by enabling the corporate agenda to destroy the working class by outsourcing and bringing down wages by hiring illegal immigrants (i.e. Wal-Mart getting busted for using illegal immigrants) is beyond me.

[Just Me]

25. You do as you please, serving your interests at your will.

I am not going to fight you as it's useless to do so.

I'm sorry we can't stand, together, against this power, in order to battle for our ideals thereafter. At this point, we can't even battle for our ideals.

But, I accept you will do as you please. I just can't go down your path,...with no hope in sight.

[Selatius]

28. I stand with the people regardless of I'm dealing with an R or a D

I always stand with the people, the workers and the poor and homeless, and if that means I call out somebody like John Kerry for what he did or George W. Bush for what he did or Bill Clinton for what he did or George HW Bush for what he did and so on, I will do so until the end of time.

[Cats Against Frist]

7. I agree

If I'm to listen to my fan-base of flamers, I have some of the most out-there, radical left-wing-almost-right-wing ideals on this board. I'm a libertarian, a social constructionist and a postmodernist whack job. That said, I've been voting for the Democratic Party, or making sure my parents voted for the Democratic Party for the last 22 years. And I'm not going to stop, now.

[TechBear_Seattle]

10. Give me a reason to vote Dem WITHOUT referencing the Repugs in any way

On the issues that are most important to me -- preserving the enviornment, peace, equal marriage, the right to be an atheist and not have my morals or patriotism called in to question as a result -- the Dems have shown themselves to be just as bad as the GOP. If you can explain to me without referencing the GOP or any other group in any way I will reconsider my position.

[Selatius]

11. Clinton and Kerry support free-trade, as opposed to Kucinich's "fair trade

Work harder! Your job is going to Mexico and China! What's good for the corporation is good for you!

[Just Me]

15. The GOP is in charge and you want me to PRETEND they aren't?

:shrug:

PROVE that ALL DEMS have proven themselves as bad as the GOP and we can begin to have a discussion because I have a long list of Democrats WHO ACTUALLY DO CARE AND ADVOCATE your issues. I expect you to provide a list of those GOPers who have CARED and ADVOCATED your issues, in comparison.

Let's do it!!!! :bounce:

[TechBear_Seattle]

31. I want

Someone... ANYone... to make a self-referencing argument that the Democratic Party, as a whole, deserves my unwavering support. To say that it is less wicked and hatefilled than some other party is not a self-referencing argument.

I already know why I should vote against the Republicans; tell me why I should vote for the Democrats.

[GeorgeGist]

13. Does not compute...

1] Your subject line is ambiguous. If there were no common enemy, my independence would still be meaningful. And much more peaceful.

2] Think, act, succeed is not a logical progression. Thinking and acting on thoughts does guarantee success.

3] Emote, act, fail is not a logical progression. Emoting and acting on those emotions does not guarantee failure.

[Just Me]

19. Define "independence","freedom", and "exploitation".

We'll talk from there.

[jukes]

27. advanced?

advanced naivite. the democrats piddle themselves if their boss speaks harshly.

i vote straight democrat, as the lesser of 2 evils. i don't believe most of them give a rat's ass.

BTW, i have an advanced degree in deviating the septum of pretentious twits. try not to patronize, please. it weakens your credibility.

[Just Me]

30. Okay. Sorry I included my studies of human behavior in the OP.

Don't mean to offend anyone by that. At least I don't use it to exploit them but rather seek to empower,...something our common enemy HATES.

[jukes]

32. i also apologize

for my rough talk.

it had been a long day in GD, y things get heated.

i hear and understand your stance, but feel it's important not to emphasize the sexual components of rape, but rather to concentrate on the hatred and cruelty of the crime.

as i've mentioned earlier, men are also frequently raped, and not necessarily in a prison setting. the perpetrators of the offense are NOT homosexuals and are not seeking sexual gratification; rather they are using the sexual assault as a means of degrading their victim and reducing him to a weak, sexual object.

sex is the MEANS of the assault in rape, but it is not the object of the encounter. it is the degradation that is important.

[genie_weenie]

33. What you are advocating is "the lesser of two evils"

if I understand you correctly. The classic horns of the dilemma. You state choose the D-horn to be gored upon instead of the R-horn. Some responses have focused on the 3rd option of throwing "sand in the eyes of the bull", or simply refusing to enter the ring.

But, I think you have correctly pointed out that since so many are still caught up in the system and don't acknowledge the 3rd, 4th or n+1 options, they should choose the Democrats.

I would prefer voluntary association of free individuals because Government is Organized Force and all it's power, despite whatever documents or divine right the persons reference, is derived from the barrel of a gun.

That being said I will vote Democratic.

And hopefully Gandhi or Jesus won't strike me down for going against my conscience...

peace :hi: