Can You Be A Completely Moral Person Without Organized Religion?

[ruggerson]

IMHO, that's one of the crucial distinctions between Republicans and Democrats.

Democrats believe, by and large, that of course you can.

Republicans, believe, by and large, that you need an external, ordered belief system to serve as a crutch.

(Note that there is a big difference between organized religion and private spirituality.)

[madmunchie]

1. YES

[muntrv]

2. YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[madeline_con]

3. Yes, without a doubt. No question about it. eom

[XanaDUer]

4. Yes.

Eom.

[China_cat]

5. Not a crutch

A club. As I said to someone else here...god's punishment after you're dead is the ultimate 'wait till your father gets home' threat.

[msgadget]

9. Good way to put it! LOL!

[H2O Man]

6. Yep.

It's possible with organized religion, too.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. Very well said, my friend

Sometimes organized religion is the cup which holds the wine of one's individual spirituality.

[H2O Man]

26. Right.

This weekend, five friends will travel from distant places to my home. We will walk through my woods, to a small clearing, where we will participate in a sweat lodge ceremony. I'm not sure how many people it takes to qualify as "organized" .... but people should do what works for them, and respect other's right to do the same.

"Knowing ignorance
is strength;
Ignoring knowledge
is sickness."
-- Lao Tse

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

44. Ho Metaquiatsun

I will be at the inipi in spirit with you, and join in the sacred chants.

[H2O Man]

51. Great!

[Left Below]

7. Religion is a handicap

it teaches Bullshit like "stone the adultress" and "cut off the hands that steal"... and "kill non-believers"


Religion is pure garbage.

[cain_7777]

113. yes, fellow freethinker.

Not only is reiligion pure garbage, but it is the bane of humanity that has done much more harm than good since man created god.

[Hardrada]

8. And then there are people like KKK Rove who are

completely organized but totally immoral!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

10. I daresay

the membership in an "organized religion" would render a member far less moral/ethical/compassionate than someone who relies on the courage of his/her own spiritual beliefs and convictions without the need for the intervention of a corporate structure.

[Hardrada]

15. I think a person is also braver, knowing there is no reward

in the sky and nothing after death, to go on with an ethical life anyway. Braver and totally clear-eyed and undeluded but knowing that sometimes your good name could live on after you.

[ruggerson]

20. It's also a far more altruistic motivation

Person A: Does what he/she believes is right because there is a reward waiting.

Person B: Does what he believes is right, because he/she believes it is right and good.

[ruggerson]

38. Although I will amend that

slightly, as there are some organized religions that do not directly link "good" behaviour with the promise of a reward in the afterlife.

[madokie]

30. I resemble that comment :-)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

66. Bingo, my friend

It's called "taking responsibility for who and what you are, for all that you do."

Copout weasels are too cravenly immoral to do anything like that, preferring to ascribe their shortcomings and cheatings to "God's will."

[cain_7777]

114. Yes!

who is the better person, someone who leads a moral life only to get into heaven, or someone who leads a moral life for no reward at all?

[HuckleB]

128. I suppose.

Alas, no less judgmental, however, as your post proves.

[LeftyMom]

11. Of course

Children behave because they wish to avoid externally imposed consequences. Acting morally for one's own internal reasons is a sign that one has matured to adulthood.

[Rabrrrrrr]

12. Of course. It's a stupid question.

Depends on what you mean by "completely moral", though.

But if you mean it in the general, non-technical sense of someone who doesn't kill, doesn't steal, tried to make other people's lives better, doesn't inflict their bullshit on others, takes care of their children and parents and family and friends, treats people with respect and dignity, and blah blah, then yeah, that can be done totally without the rubric of a religion.

Religion, when used properly, can help people stay in the rubric, as well as motivate them to live morally (in terms of the previous, non-technical generic non-definition), but it is absolutely and totally and completely not essential.

I know many non-religious people who are very moral, and put most "religious" people to shame with the righteousness of their living.

[marbuc]

13. You don't need religion to have a belief system

I might argue that organized religion weakens the individual belief system, because you are told how to think and act rather than learning how to apply personal values on your own.

[jedr]

37. But, can you have a moral belief system,

without being exposed at some point to religion, seeing that that is what our moral beliefs are based upon. However, you have been given intelligence and free will to look objectively at the "organized" part of a religion. I understand that being a part of the organization helps some to full fill their beliefs. I ,however, view the message as being terribly twisted over the centuries as to control the masses. I do believe that you need the knowledge of religion to form moral beliefs . If not, an moral anarchy would be a natural result.

[H2O Man]

45. Interesting.

Gandhi said, "If parents behave themselves while the child is growing, the child will instinctively obey the law of truth and the law of love. ... From my experience of hundreds of children, I know they have a finer sense of honor than you or I have .... Jesus never uttered a loftier or grander truth than when he said that wisdom cometh out of the mouth of babes. I believe it."

[marbuc]

46. I know people that have had limited exposure to religion

and they have functioning moral compasses. I do believe moral beliefs are formed according to how one is raised, but parenting and personal experience can be just as effective.

[jedr]

52. I don't think that anyone can be totally insulated from religion;

But the debate as to weather man is naturally good or bad is a great topic for debate.

[marbuc]

59. I will tell you this:

I think that belief that man is born with sin is absolute BS. We are born a blank slate, with some predispositions based on genetics.

[antigone382]

79. Unless your moral system is based on logic...

...as mine is. I find that, since I will not live forever, it is illogical to waste my life trying to obtain things and pleasures that will one day have no meaning for me. It is far more logical to work towards the survival and quality of life of the human race and of the entire planet, since that has the potential to exist indefinitely.

Now, I was exposed to a religious system (various denominations of protestant Christianity) for most of my life; but it never really satisfied my sense of moral reasoning. I preferred to find a reason to do good that rested on more than the will of an intangible creator. That doesn't make organized religion any less valuable to those who find it gives them meaning and purpose; it just wasn't right for me.

[ruggerson]

84. So, for example,

you think it's only religion (or the awareness of it in human civilization) that prevents people from killing each other?

You don't think a human, unexposed to organized religion, but with full senses and intelligence intact, might know innately that it's wrong to take another's life?

[jedr]

98. late post , hope you get to read it;

I don't know. It raises the "raised by wolves" question of what is innate and what is environmental. Most cultures develop some sort of moral code. But some seem to fall into chaos such as the Romans or the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. As a liberal I believe that people tend to be good to each other, but if that is innate or environmental is the question. Once again, I don't know.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

125. not true.

religion is nothing but supersticious claptrap, based on ancient fears of the unknown.
Today's morals are reflected in our social laws. Not the commandments or crap like that, but in the legal requirements which precisely tell us what is right or wrong. A knowledge of religion - one which is accurate would not lead people to form moral beliefs. Instead, it would lead them to write best sellers in comedy, tragedy and ficton.

[jody]

14. Yes. nt

[SnoopDog]

17. I am living proof....!

[suziedemocrat]

18. Absolutely!!!!!

Religion creates it own "market/demand" by convincing people they need it. It's a brilliant marketing scheme!!

[Ezlivin]

19. Does the Pope shit in the woods?

:evilgrin:

[marbuc]

54. You can ask...

when you're in Hell! ;-)

[DIKB]

95. I love that comment, lol

I'm ashamed to say, it took me a while to figure out it was a disjoined result of two sayings. I'm glad I figured it out and no one explained it to me though.

[Xeric]

21. Yes, and maybe the opposite is more true

I think that organized religion in many ways keeps people from being "moral" (I think a better term would be "ethical") by not allowing them to think for themselves and coming to the logical conclusion- that ethics are necessary for society to exist. It's not something that came from on high. It was what we as humans developed to allow ourselves to have a community. If people simply are scared into being good, they don't ever develop for themselves the idea that there is a reason to be a good person.
Republicans, of course, exploit religion for their own purposes. Notice how liquid their moral reality is. They can become hysterical about gay rights or abortion while dropping bombs on women and children.

[Blue Belle]

154. Your post reminds me of a Mark Twain Quote:

"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing."

- Autobiography of Mark Twain

:)

[Mr_Spock]

22. I've always thought of this as one of my big strengths

I know what's moral and right without having some authoritarian figure tell me.

You know why?

Because

I

have

a

conscience

Do you know what so many republicans are missing and why they need someone to tell them right from wrong?

I think you guessed it.

[maxsolomon]

no

you need a reason to be good.

fear works, as evidenced by the millenia of peace that surrounds all 3 monotheisms.

[karlrschneider]

27. Urm, did you perchance neglect to include a

:sarcasm: :evilgrin:

[maxsolomon]

145. i'm sick of the sarcasm simile!

i know how to do it: :sarcasm:, but i grow weary of telegraphing all humor & irony.

this entire thread is preaching to the choir.

[SofaKingLiberal]

92. Do you know what a conscience is?

No, it must be like the poster above says:

You just forgot the :sarcasm:,right?

[rman]

116. Hello Machiavelli, Leo Strauss,

and certain sympathizers of their philosophies.

Or maybe you just forgot the sarcasm tag...

[corkhead]

153. I thought it was LEVI Strauss

[rman]

155. definitely Leo Strauss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss

"He is widely considered to be one of the leading intellectual sources of neoconservatism."

[gollygee]

140. LOL

I don't think other people picked up the satire.

"as evidenced by the millenia of peace that surrounds all 3 monotheisms"

ROFL

[karlrschneider]

23. There really is not much need of any "moral code" beyond what's

generally called the "golden rule" which concept predates any known religion and is essentially understood, if not verbalized, by most animals; not just the human variety. Perhaps one difficulty is that our own species seems to be less committed to it.

[Botany]

24. Call on me ....... call on me.

Hello ah ...... ummmmm ..... ah.

How about Jesus?

[ixion]

25. absolutely

:woohoo:

[Lost-in-FL]

28. Republicans solve every issue with "Fear"

That is why religion works so well for their believes.

[hobbit709]

29. YES!!!!!!

A fundie one day asked if I was a Christian. I told him I have higher standards than that.

[Lost-in-FL]

31. Ouch

[porphyrian]

32. Absolutely yes. - n/t

[paparush]

33. Oh My God...YES!! Absolutely. Wingnuts are religious..not spiratual.

[sam sarrha]

34. Buddhism has been around for 2,600 years, it isn't a religion..

the Republicans simply need a structured belief system to try to prove they to other that they have one.. which they dont, they are scavengers/opportunists, feeding on the those they disenfranchise and oppress. by definition they are Fascists, they would not exist except for the bribes from the rich and big corporations.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

106. For some reason sam sarrha, when I have mentioned that Buddhism isn't

a religion but a belief system, many people don't get that.

[sam sarrha]

151. everybody has to start where they are.. i see it as a psychology, untill

after enough practace and one has trained to mind to understand 'emptyness', the union of subject and object.

that is why when you bring up the 'subject' of Buddhism some can only attach an 'object' to it. that is that it is the same or simular to a church, I had a revelation in a group meditation once that Buddhism is actually very simular or the same as and A.A. meeting for people addicted to conventional thought. they, the layman Sanga meet regularly to reinforce the process, Path, to Liberation.. just like A.A. from an addictive and habitual view, the cause of the effect...samsara

it is counter productive to argue with them, i just state my view.. and listen. if you dont contenue the conversation ends politely and peacefully. keeping in mind that 'Nothing Enherantly Exists' not even your view.. . as Johnny Appleseed said, 'what ever we believe, we will all be supprised when we get to the other side'

the Noble Eight Fold Path is simply a method of living, while we practace training the mind, in order not to aquire anymore nevative karma untill we are Liberated form Samsara.

have you seen the movie, 'The Little Buddha' ...it is at a lot of video rental stores..

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

156. Thank you for your excellent explanation.

I came to appreciate Buddhism after doing a no mind meditation a few years ago that led me to see Buddha sitting on the Lotus Flower. I never thought to really explore it until then. What I did find out, after talking about it with several people and doing some reading, that I have been walking on a Buddhist path most of my life.

As to Little Buddha.. I once caught a good part of it till the end and have been waiting to see it in its entirety. In fact one of the cable networks was showing it last week and I missed the beginning Again, so I decided to wait until it comes on again. I really did EnJoy what I watched/listened to, a great deal.

[understandinglife]

35. Comprehensively.

Peace.

[cynatnite]

36. It would be nice if more people wouldn't tie spirituality to it. n/t

[GreenInNC]

39. yep

[Perky]

40. Of course you can but you misunderstand the value of faith

if you think its primary purpose is morality,

In my view is is just one of the byproducts of life with God. To say nothing of the fact that morality extends to your response to people in desperate straits such as poverty, sickness, hunger. Faith in Action is the moral response by people of faith whether organizes or not. Faith without action is immoral. Morality with neither action or faith is what the Religions Right practices.

They don't care about the poor or the sick, or the power of God tor transform lives or circumstances... They just care about power. It is not about Jesus...it is about power and money and blaming the other guys.

[BlueEyedSon]

41. Can you be a completely moral person and go to your job tomorrow?

Is the business model of your company pure and guilt-free? Or does it prey on its customers, pollute, offshore, etc....

[Submariner]

42. I was raised Catholic, thus racist, sexist, and destructive

when I was about 26 and just finishing college (science ed) it was like an epiphany when I realized there never was a god, or any gods for that matter. Since then I have become a more moral individual realizing that WE alone control our attitudes and fates, and not some imaginary sky person or deity that must be looked up to for guidance in such matters. And in such matters the religions inherently teach hate in order to out-do each other. It's sickening.

[seabeyond]

43. not only can i be completely moral, in todays times and religion

it might be the only mean of morality. religion seems bent on creating the opposite of their desired goal. i am very much a christian, but church and religion over three four years has totally given me the negative

[EST]

47. Depends.

Religion is, for many, an impediment. For some, it is essential. Without threats, there are many people who would be a lot worse than they are, thus the need for laws and punishments. It has been proven over and over that a huge percentage of humans would do a lot more horrendous things, if they were sure they would not get caught.
The need for "making a list and checking it twice" helps with some children and a grown up version has proven necessary.
For the rest of us, the suggestion that we would need a santa in the sky to regulate our behavior is insulting and reflects the mind set of the person selling religion, not the moral suasion of his victim.

[TechBear_Seattle]

48. We know that people can be highly immoral with religion, so...

It seems logical to conclude that morality has little to do with religion. From that, it is logical that people can be moral without religion.

[W_HAMILTON]

49. Of course

Hell, with all the religious fanaticism in the world today, there's probably a better chance of you being a "moral" person if you don't buy into all that stuff.

"Live and let live" is all you need. As long as someone isn't hurting me, or hurting someone else, let them do as they please. I don't feel the need to enforce my morals on everyone else, but at the same time, I don't think anyone else should be forcing their personal morals on me either.

[kurth]

50. Nope. You gotta have a building and a preacher and a schedule

to pray and pay. Unless you watch the preacher on TV and send in the money.

[Just Me]

53. Well, of course.

Geez, :rofl: I've known far more "religious" people who have engaged in immoral behavior than non-religious. That's a fact.

I don't mean to discriminate against the "religious-oriented". I'm just stating the facts of my experience. I'll add that, the "religious-oriented" who have engaged in immoral behavior have ALWAYS used their religion to excuse it rather than take responsbility and compensate for that behavior. ALWAYS!

It's sad,...and un-helpful to both those bound to their religion and the victims of their actions.

Oh, well. :shrug:

[Yollam]

55. What a strange question.

A more relevant question would be: "Can you be a completely moral person and still participate in organized religion"?

I know lots of atheists and they are all highly moral and ethical people. I cannot say the same of many of the religious folks I've known. First off, participation in organized religion indicates a high susceptibility to groupthink, which is very easily used to make people behave in unethical and immoral ways.

[GeorgeGist]

56. Of course

[KansDem]

57. Of course! I know atheists who are more Christian that Christians.

Really! Their sense of morality would put many Christians to shame.

[PretzelzRule]

58. TOTALLY!

n/t

[mandyky]

60. Depends what one's definition of morality is

To the RWers, abortion and being gay (to name a few) are immoral.

I think people are more moral when it is their individual choice to be, rather than it being forced externally by guilt, shame, and fear based belief systems.

[sinkingfeeling]

61. About 110% more moral than a significant number of the religious.

[Occulus]

62. Yes, yes, one thousand times, YES.

Religion is merely a control put upon us by a hierarchy of "people who know better".

Well, guess what? I'm done obeying my 'betters'.

Organized religion is about nothing more than power over us and control of us. No religion can even come close to the ultimate truths in the first place- although I do also believe all religions contain parts of the truth.

I can't associate myself with any one religion because I understand that simple fact. I hold in contempt those who recruit or even worse force in the name of their CHOSEN religion. That sickens me to the core; no sect of Christianity or any other religion is in possession of the 'one true way', yet many behave as if they are.

Hubris.

Flame on, but one's religionfaith is limited by one's own understanding of the concept of God, the full understanding of which no human can approach. To say another's religion- or lack thereof- 'violates the precepts of God' is to limit that same God to doctrines and dogmas one himself understands and is comfortable with- an act which by its very nature violates the concept of that same God.

Organized religion is, in short, illogical. We should be able to grow beyond it, but it appears that will require some grand Event of some sort to truly take root in the human psyche.

That 'E' is capitalized intentionally, by the way.

[dysfunctional press]

63. can you be a completely moral person WITH organized religion?

in the words of gandhi: "I like your christ, but i do not like your christians- they are not at all like your christ."

i tend to find much more real morality among my fellow athiests than in any organized religoid i've ever come across.

[Cleita]

64. I don't think the mainstream religions cover much morality at

all. What they do is have a narrow definition of right and wrong that usually is short of addressing societal ills and often based on keeping one segment of the population, like women, responsible for most of the sinning.

[bklyncowgirl]

65. Absolutely. nt

[melody]

67. These Republicans DO need a fundamentalist structure

Their backgrounds are filled with illegal and unethical activities, to a one. They need a fascist state to tell them what to do, because they are borderline or full blown sociopaths. Unfortunately, they want to tell the more responsible people what to do also.

[AlCzervik]

68. Do people assume that religious people are moral? I don't, i take each

person as an individual.

[demosincebirth]

73. Thats what we all should do and not

paint all, religious or not, with a wide brush as many do.

[twenty2strings]

69. Organized religion's influence is inescapable ...

Like pop culture assimilation, you cannot escape the subconscious marination that occurs when it is all around you. Racism,sexism,cultural identification....Think you're free? Nah."you're soaking in it." (As Madge would say.) See. But we can try.:crazy:

[jukes]

70. yes

but i'm strong enough emotionally to set my own moral code, and live by it!

how often republican's spout their god-given code,y violate it!

[grannylib]

71. Of course. I know a number of atheists who are among the most decent,

honest, loving, honorable, family-oriented, ethical, caring, hard-working people I know.

[RebelOne]

117. I'm one of those decent, etc., atheists.

[SPKrazy]

72. It Depends On Whose Morals You Consider

If I look at fundies morals, (do what I say not what I do, kill people but not fetuses, attack countries that didn't attack you, harrass and even condone attacks against people based on sexual orientation, and on and on. These people have their own code of morals, it isn't mine, and I doubt it is a supreme being's morals either)

My liberal and Christian morals don't follow these morals either.

I've known people that had no formal religious views who had what I consider good morals, but I'm sure they had bad or no morals to the fundie crowd.

Morals are not universal, they are culturally defined.

There are some that are common, but essentially they are specific to the culture.

I don't believe in fundie morals, but they have morals, just not ones that conform to what I believe.

[Solly Mack]

74. I long for the day when the bias swings the other way

and people ask ,"Can you be a completely moral person WITH organized religion?"

It is a bias (prejudice, in fact) - the assumption being: that without religion the ability for a person to be moral is questionable.

Religion didn't invent morals. Religion didn't invent goodness or decency or integrity...and it's for damn sure that religion does not - and never has - and never will - hold any sort of monopoly on morals.

I know you know this, ruggerson...I'm just pondering

[ruggerson]

88. Of course

and I agree with you. But I phrased the question the way I did deliberately. I think a sizable amount of religious folk need to understand that religion is not a prerequisite for morality and goodness. Folks who don't belong to an organized religious faith already know that. :)

[DanCa]

75. Morality has nothing to do with religion.

Some of the most noble people I know are athesiest. Like wise some of the most immoral people I know are the ones who practice conservative dogma religion. Is Fred Phelps being moral when he protests a soldiers funeral? Is Sean Hannity being moral when he shoots a show from a hospice and exploits a woman on her death bed.
Are prolifes being moral when they force a rape victim to give birth to her attackers child. And is it moral that these conservative dogma pushers keep me aflicted with young onset parkinsos because it's against their religious views.
Okay rant over but to answer your question yes a person can be moral without believing in a higher power.

[NoSheep]

76. Easier without it. Much easier. I want to hurt people in church.

:freak:

[Hardrada]

77. Orthodox pious LIEberman is OK with

possibly nuking Iran. He is a great case in point.

[UTUSN]

78. Well DUH-hhhhuuuhhhhh n/t

[kestrel91316]

80. Well, yes, given that NOBODY is perfect.......

BTW, I happen to think that people who NEED organized religion to keep them honest have got something seriously wrong with them (and religion is a mere bandaid, won't fix the problem, just cover it up).

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ladjf]

82. A very silly question. It would have been better had the question

asked "Can You Be A Completely Moral Person With Organized Religion"?

Religious dogma is an impediment to ethical behavior.

[Hissyspit]

86. Bing, bing, bing! Answer of the Day.

Award: :toast:

[dansolo]

83. Can you be a completely moral person WITH organized religion?

Are people truly moral if their actions are only guided by a fear of punishment (i.e. Hell) or promise of a reward (i.e. Heaven). And don't get me started on the whole notion of being completely absolved of sin by merely "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour", which I think of as a get-out-of-hell-free card.

[Lindacooks]

85. More so. I was raised in a fundie church and school.

The number of kids who sat piously in church every single day and then were some of the meanest, most rotten little creeps and bullies to everybody the rest of the time was mind-blowing.

[newspeak]

90. reminds me of a part in the movie "Saved"

when the pastor tells the students, he wanted them to be warriors for God and to help Mary. And, one of the girls says, "Oh, you want us to kill her." Some individual's conscience goes as far as what they are told to believe or do. There were laws before the creation of Christianity--in Greece, Egypt, Mesopotamia. There were laws against murdering, stealing.

[Neil Lisst]

87. Yes. I'm not sure you can be a completely moral person WITH religion.

[greyl]

89. Strong Yes. nt

[saltpoint]

91. I vote Yes. But the tag sales are better in organized religion.

Jesus was smart enough to walk right by every temple in town and went out to party down with John and the Essenes in the desert.

[fleabert]

93. yeppers.

[Karenca]

94. yes... ...NT

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

96. Yes! I am more Christian than most who claim they are..and I was born

a Jew, and have ecclectic beliefs. All unorganized.

[katinmn]

97. Yes, and I understand eclectic, too!

I have studied many different religions and choose to focus on the universal themes.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

104. Same here katinmn. :) eom

[0007]

110. Do you mean

Selecting and employing individual elements from a variety of sources, such as systems, and styles?

[niallmac]

99. If organized religion e.g. as manifested by Christian churches

were more moral than agnostic 'ol me..then I would expect once in a while at least the whole
of church attending Christianity would be on the streets demanding an end to an immoral,
anti gospel, illegal killing machine like our present government.
Instead it is I on the streets and the churches seem ever so quiet and orderly.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

100. you can be a perfectly moral person without god or religion

personal responsibility is a big deal with some people who dont have god to blame the worlds problems on

[aikoaiko]

101. I don;t think anyone can be COMPLETELY moral regardless of rel.

[riona]

102. Yes you can be moral without organized religion

and, from what I've seen, you can be a member of organized religion and be immoral.

[sendero]

103. Of course...

... the "average" atheist I've known over the years had a lot more integrity than the average "Christian".

It is not the fear of divine punishment that makes sane people want to behave, it is the fact that our world cannot function unless we all do.

[tlsmith1963]

105. Yes

I don't think that being religious is the only way to have morals. And some religious people are far from being moral, especially the ones who do bad things & then claim that God made them do it.

Tammy

[Avalux]

107. Absolutely.

And I would submit that organized religion is an impediment to becoming a 'moral' person. By labeling oneself as being part of a select group, a person's mind automatically becomes exclusionary to those who aren't part of it. Hence wars and fighting over whose religion is best. Killing in the name of religion is the most immoral act I can imagine.

We must all learn to accept each other and tear down the barriers that separate us to become 'enlightened' to human existence and make it better. I haven't touched on private spirituality and believing in a higher power in general - but I will say that you don't have to believe in something else to live a moral life - the key component being respect for all others. And, let's change that word moral to ethical. :hi:

[truckin]

127. I totally agree that religion can be used this way but I believe

that instead of retreating from religion it is important to find a religion that does not practice this type of hate. I was a member of the Catholic church for most of 46 years and started to sour on it as I got more involved in it and saw the political direction it was heading. One year ago I walked out for good after one of our priests gave a passionate sermon about why we should go to the state capital to protest a civil union law that was about to pass.

Instead of leaving religion, I found an Episcopal parish that has services with clergy from other religions, encourages public service and does not discriminate against gays. I am very happy in this parish and have met many great people. Sure this may be a crutch, but this crutch helps me lead a better life and brings me more peace and happiness.

Anyway, it starting to sound like I am trying to recruit and I don't mean to do that. Many evil people have used religion for war and other terrible things and this is disgusting and should be exposed for what it is. The movement to tear down the separation between church and state is also very scary and we, as Democrats, should do everything possible to stop this.

[hexola]

108. No religion has an exclusive on morality...

...although many will claim to...

[Tesha]

109. More likely, I'd say. (NT)

[ehrnst]

111. Don't know anyone who is "completely moral."

Given that "moral" is a relative term...I don't believe that morality is the exclusive property of organized religion.

Is that Unitarian enough for you?

[cain_7777]

112. Nonbelievers are much more moral than religious people!

"Republicans, believe, by and large, that you need an external, ordered belief system to serve as a crutch." Yeah, religion is a crutch for people who can't think for themselves.

[rman]

115. Can You Be A Completely Immoral Person With Organized Religion?

Rhetorical question, of course.

[michiganbuckeye1970]

118. morality is in the eye of the beholder

Hemingway wrote that morality is what you feel good after. The problem is that too many Enron types feel good about fucking people over. I would imagine many of these types show up at their local Baptist watering hole on Sundays and crawl up to the pulpit while bawling like a baby to declare themselves sinners before god.

I think to be moral you have to have a sense of fairness, while at the same time realizing that life is never going to be fair.

What I tell my mocking Christian friends (I just can't believe in a god, even though I've tried) is that I try to go forward with the idea that life is tough and if we can at some level try to help each other out when need be, we can make life just a little less tough.

I also think we make our own meaning. That is a huge responsibility.

[SunDrop23]

119. Yes you can.

[Buns_of_Fire]

120. "And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good --

need we ask anyone to tell us these things?" -- Robert Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

[truckin]

121. No, no one is completely moral with or without religion. However,

a person can be as moral a person without religion as with religion. I do believe, though, that it is more difficult to be moral without legitimate religions that truly teach the golden rule.

[Avalux]

123. Why is it more difficult?

Please read my post #107. I state the opposite. :hi:

[truckin]

124. In my case I have found that I have led a better, less selfish life

when I was involved in organized religion. I have spent time when I ignored religion and I did not live as good a life. Attending church on a weekly basis helps me live a better life and keeps me more grounded.

Now this does not mean that everyone is the same as me and needs to do this but I suspect being involved with a religion that closely mirrors people's moral views would help many. Also, I'm sure that many people live more moral lives than I do that never attend church but it helps me and might help others that do not value it.

[Avalux]

137. Thanks for responding.

I suppose our conclusions about this difficult question are in a lot of ways molded by personal experience and how one was raised. I too was brought up in the Catholic Church and as a child and young adult was quite happy with being part of it. My personal experience of marriage (which I thought would be forever) to a man who was gay (neither of us knew) and then the ramifications of divorce and attempted annullment within the Church left a very bitter taste in my mouth. I have no room for religion that isn't accepting and I have decided I do not need to go to church to have a relationship with a higher power or to be a better person. The way I see it; everyone on this planet deserves to be treated with respect and dignity - EVERYONE. So much about organized religion is in opposition to this concept :hi:

[truckin]

144. I agree that everyone should be treated with respect but I do

believe there are religions that do this.

The Catholic Church's position on gay issues is one of the main reasons that I left and the policy on annulment where the only way to get one is to pay outrageous sums of money is crazy.

We all have to find the way that works best for each of us. Best of luck to you in your journey!

[Hardrada]

159. The annulment thing didn't woork out for Henry VIII either.

He made himself the head of a church and was still immoral!

[Lorien]

164. Nonsense. I was raised by atheists and have never attended a

church, yet my sense of right and wrong is very strong. I cannot lie, steal, or intentionally cause another pain; I have a very strong sense of morality-stronger than most of the fundies that I know (who only seem to worry about other people's morality, not their own). I think that many people use organized religion to excuse their immoral actions e.g.;"I'm not perfect, just saved".

[elehhhhna]

122. My sister is agnostic-leaning towards atheistic and leads a more Christian

life than 99% of the population.

Lots of charitable work, money, and volunteering, etc.

Plus she looks like Cybill Shepard the lucky girl.

[Joe Fields]

126. Absolutely! n/t

[DoYouEverWonder]

129. I think it's much harder to be a moral person

and be an active participant in organized religion.

[APPLE314]

130. yes

You won't make the final cut though.

[progressoid]

131. Only if you sing hymns

That's the problem atheists and agnostics have...no hymns.

[dalaigh lllama]

135. You got it!

That's the one thing I do like about the Christian Church. There's some kick ass music. I'm talking Classical music here, not the contemporary pablum. I just loves a good Handel's Messiah at Christmas, and Verdi's Requiem is good all year round.

[The2ndWheel]

132. You can?

Well that takes the fun out of atheism. Goddamn it, goddamn it all to hell!

[dalaigh lllama]

133. I would also add

from purely anecdotal experience, that those who have questioned their birth "faith" and either changed their religion or left religion entirely, tend to be more committed to morality. I'm even including the fundies -- the ones at the bottom of the fundie totem pole here, not their feckless leaders. I am diametrically opposed to the "morality" system of the fundies, but I think they are committed to living a "Christian" life in their strange little way. I'm more in tune with atheists with a humanist approach to morality, because they seem to approach their world view with more logic and less reliance on others' pronouncements. In my own family of five siblings raised Catholic, we have one non-church-goer, one Lutheran, two Unitarian Universalists, and one fundie. Go figure. During a period of spiritual crisis in my own life, I found the following saying to be most apropos:

Religion is for folks who are afraid of going to hell. Spirituality is for folks who have already been there.

[Carni]

134. Yes, absolutely eom

[Triana]

136. morality hasn't a damn thing to do with religion (n/t)

[newportdadde]

138. Not if your going to run for office it seems.

All of our politicians are required to proclaim their devotion to religion. To say otherwise would be political suicide.

Personally in my experience my two best friends who are both regular church goers are also big hypocrites. One slept with a married women, the other is a womanizer(had sex with one girl for a nooner, then another that night).

Just follow the golden rule. Too often church is used as a get of jail free car. Its okay to screw people in my job or steal etc because I go to church and say I'm sorry or just by going to church I show how nice I am.

[SmokingJacket]

139. Perhaps even more so.

No one's going to forgive us agnostics, so we have to be careful.

[soleft]

141. All you need is mental health and compassion, Bush clearly lacking

[BiggJawn]

142. Of course not.

Why, I ate 2 babies for breakfast, planning on having some high school cheerleaders for a "nooner" after I rob a few banks and devour half a virgin for lunch.

:sarcasm:

[Marr]

143. I don't think it's possible to be a completely moral person either way.

We all have faults and none of us sticks to any code with complete perfection, no matter what that code is. I see alot of self-professed moral agnostics in this very thread who are being awfully judgemental and self-righteous, in my personal opinion.

I'm not a religious person myself, but I do believe there are many paths to spirituality, and for some- organized religion is that path.

[nini]

146. Yes of course... Also, you can be very immoral with religion

It all comes down to how you live your life. Some of the most moral people I know are non believers. I've also known church goers that think because they go to church once a week they can do whatever they want the rest of the week.

[wryter2000]

147. IMHO ethics and morality are independent from religious observation

There are plenty of good and bad people in both camps. My theory is that ethics develop before religious orientation. In other words, we learn to share and not hit BEFORE we're exposed to organized religion. For those of us who adopt a religion, we overlay that on the ethics we've already learned.

In any case, it seems to me that you're more likely to behave ethically if you've internalized a responsibility to others than if you're only afraid of an external source of punishment.

[PATRICK]

148. People do not dictate morality

to other people since being completely moral or holy or whatever the proud term is would hardly ever be accepted by the best individuals you would automatically place in that category. It is worse for the "believer" to presume he is perfectly moral and righteous even to pass it off as some sort of blanket coverage by the Redeemer, because it is a double presumption about oneself and what one terms God.

The term crutch implies some heroic individuals don't need props which shows a technical superiority for the decent atheist who does not have the danger, thank God, of lying both about himself and his God in the safe assuring breath. the reason we are in big trouble is because the best of humans are not good enough, perhaps not good enough to overcome and survive. At least not based on our false presumptions and lack of real effort. Thinking a historical pattern or past outcome will automatically rescue us- without effort- is a bizarre departure from the virtue needed to stave off total destruction.

People who think in terms of needing a title and organization debase what ethical religion is right at the start and veer from there toward immoral judgment and judgment of any sort in Christianity is cautioned against and the sole prerogative of God mostly for the Great Sorting Out when this mess is over. Yet the GOP must have power and judgment and especially punishment now and so the divergence from Christianity and morality itself in energy required to propel this split profoundly repels ordinary logic and non-religious mammalian decency. Thew Kingdom that Jesus brought to earth- NOW- was not that type of moral pose at all, but one one the perfect love and service that a perfect world would have- without power, angels, torture, glamor or the material bounty of prosperous mammon. And sadly a cross to bear for all our decent efforts thanks to the "moral minority" of hypocrites.

Organized religion need be no better or worse, than civil government or any human organization for the common good and the highest values with compassion for the least individual. organization itself can be diseased. The libertarian concept of killing the idea of organization easily becomes contradictory and vain in creating a lazier form of moral contradiction. This easy way out that also ends up with the destruction of the moral community and the isolation of all of us imperfect people.

In two thousand checkered years that would only have surprised Jesus with their endurance and longevity in the face of countless aberrations and missing the point the Christian organization has experienced just about everything except the best for the most. If the organization has not so much to brag about then the saints would concur that individuals are neither so hot individually or collectively whatever revolts or changes occur.

[ceile]

149. Yes, of course!

My mom said to me once that I have no morals because I'm not a believer. I just looked at her and said "I got my morals from you, Mom". My mother is a strong, pro-choice, feet-firmly-planted kind of woman. Raised 4 kids practically on her own. When I said that, she shut up. I had my mom to teach me, I didn't need religion.

[baby_mouse]

150. Of course you can. NT

[Blue Belle]

152. Some of the most Immoral people in the World are "religious"

History has shown that over and over again. In my opinion, the question of morality lies in interpretation - a moral person will base his deeds out of compassion, where as an immoral one will base his deeds out of self. The reason that immoral people cling to the structure of religion, is similar to how a lawyer clings to precedented law - they can manipulate the system to win their case. They can take a religious artifact like the bible that is very contradictory in it's teachings and simply pick and choose the stanzas they need to make their case. We've seen time and time again the religious right whip out old standards such as "an eye for an eye" to justify hate forgetting the "love thy neighbor" volumes of the book that encourage the practice of compassion and tolerance. Religion is not by itself immoral by any means. There are plenty of moral, loving, compassionate, people who do a world of good and who are deeply religious... its just that the lions share of the public's perception of how religion is supposed to be viewed has been manipulated by those that work the system for their own agenda.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

157. Yes.

And you can be religious and completely immoral.

[eppur_se_muova]

158. It's all academic ... I wasn't planning on being completely moral anyway.

Especially not on my "Crazy Thursdays".:evilgrin:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

160. No.

But then, that's only because I firmly beleive that NO human being is 'completely' moral.

As far as any less or moreso than anyone else? Of course. Morals have nothing to do with religion, and all to do with simple self decency.

[Hardrada]

161. I want one of those get out of jail free cars

someone was mentioning above. Sin freely that grace may abound out there on Highway 61!

[DemGirl7]

162. YES....

I consider myself not "belonging" to an organized religion, and I'm more of moral person than alot of those who profess that they belong to a religion.

[Lorien]

163. I'm a very moral atheist

I believe that I alone am responsible for my actions and the consequences of those actions. I don't believe that I was "born sinful", or that if I say I believe that Jesus died for my "sins" (why would I want anyone to die for my actions?)that such a belief will wipe away any nasty or destructive thing that I've ever done. Talk about passing the buck!

[JerseygirlCT]

165. Sure. But one can also participate in organized religion

without it being a "crutch".

You can't side-step your disdain with a disclaimer about spirituality. Many very wonderful people get a great deal from organized religion. You're simply going to have to learn to paint with a much finer brush, you know?

[LearnedHand]

166. Please excuse a bit of cynacism,

but why do these two concepts even need to be linked? Isn't that like asking if you can swim without being a fish? Morality is SO not the provenance of religion.