Rape Is In Fact Sex!!!!!

[meisje]

Clearly it is wrong, but the dictionary defines rape as the following:

rape1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rp)
n.
The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

1. Sex Is A Part Of Rape. That's A Fact, Yes. They Aren't Interchangeable

though, but Sex, or some form of it, is within the very definition of rape simply a part of it. That much all but fools could agree on.

[tatertop]

3. I love arguments like this:

"That much all but fools could agree on."

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

10. So Do I.

I love facts too...


Only fools shun facts and place opinions as more legitimate. That isn't an inaccurate statement, it's just the way it is.

[DrunkenMaster]

81. congratulations

This is the third post of yours that I have read in 24 for hours that is both ridiculous and offensive. The first was when you claimed that eating meat and driving an SUV are "rights" on par with our Constitutionally protected freedoms to speech, assembly, petition, religion and the press; now this post where you arrogantly use a ridiculous logical fallacy (the either/or fallacy, or the excluded middle, look it up) to make an argument that has, at its foundation, a truly offensive basis.

You are the first DUer to make my ignore list. Congrats.

By the way? Queensryche sucks.

[Ron Mexico]

94. Completely off topic, but

Queensryche does NOT suck. :hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

95. What Do You Expect From Someone Who Says I Have No Right To Eat Meat LOL

:rofl:

Inaccurate declarations appear to be a trend with that one.

[Vidar]

92. Right. All rape is sex. All sex is not rape. Venn diagrams next.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Well this is a silly argument.

Let's spend all our time on this.

[Monk06]

5. I've spent some time thinking about this issue>>>>>>>>

:yoiks: I've decided it's time to get outta here.

[niyad]

4. and your point?

[tuvor]

9. I'm waiting for one, too.

Someone wants to generate heat instead of light.

[meisje]

12. Many here make decisions based on emotion, not fact

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. Fact, schmact

This is a definitional dispute, and has nothing to do with fact. At least be honest about the level of argument. Is it a question of fact? Is it a question of definition? Is it a question of value? Is it a question of policy?

The reduction of all statements into the two camps of "fact" and "emotion" is the game of simpletons, primarily because the so-called "facts" rarely, if ever, speak for themselves. People have to do that, with arguments, and even Aristotle understood that arguments, inherently social, necessarily imply "emotion" (what he called pathos. So let's get off the high horse, shall we. If you want to discuss the question, at least be serious about it.

[tuvor]

29. You could have said that in the first place.

Although you're not clear as to what "decisions" you're referring to.

[niyad]

38. I repeat, what is your point? to what, or whom, does your post refer, and

why isn't it in whatever thread seems to have set you off? explain, please, and skip the judgmental, in absentia, attacks.

[Imagevision]

35. meisje, and your point is go out and rape someone because it's sex?

[Cone10]

6. Rape

Rape is sex but the act of rape is not about sex but about power over somebody else.

[Jigarotta]

20. it's twisted sex in a violent brain.

alone and forced upon someone who DOES NOT CONSIDER IT SEX, but an assault.

he said /she said.

he said it was SEX, she said it was NOT.

[dysfunctional press]

31. sometimes it's about sex, not power over someone else-

obviously not in the mind of the victim- but in many cases of "date rape" in particular- to the guy, it IS about the sex.
i don't understand why it's so hard for some people to grasp that concept.

we are animals, and it's a natural drive, particularly strong in some, to procreate, even in contradiction to artifical social standards. that's not to say that it's right, permissible or justified- just that it is.

some 20-yeqr old guy with a few drinks in him and a hard-on isn't thinking about how he can control and demean the woman in the passenger seat- he's just trying to get his rocks off, and feels that she's just playing "hard to get". and yes, it's WRONG nad it's a crime, and it should be-

but honestly- sometimes, a lot of times- rape IS DEFINITELY about the SEX.

[niyad]

41. tell that to the unwilling victim. I hope to hell that no woman you know

is ever that victim, because you aren't going to have a f****** clue about what she is going through.

[dysfunctional press]

46. sex has NOTHING to do with consent.

it is merely a physical act.
why is that such a difficult concept for some people to grasp?

the puritanical roots of this country are still causing A LOT of people to have SERIOUS hang-ups when it comes to sex.

it really is amazing.

[niyad]

50. your attitude is appalling and I hope to hell you are never in a

relationship EVER, if you cannot tell the difference between consent and rape. and please don't try the "you don't understand" crap on ME, because I very clearly understand the difference.
get thee to a monastery at once.

[dysfunctional press]

53. i'm in a fantastic relationship- and my wife agrees with me.

she gets just as many chuckles as i out of the dimwits on this board who can't seem to figure out that there's a huge difference between "love" and "sex".

are there really that many people in this country who don't own a dictionary?

[Lindacooks]

51. Sex has EVERYTHING to do with consent.

If one if the parties doesn't consent, it's rape.

Sheesh.

[dysfunctional press]

52. and it's also sex.

as in SEXual assault.

[greyl]

54. May I draw a conclusion based on you ignoring that men get raped

and that women commit rape?

edit: The conclusion I'd draw is that you may not be looking at the issue in a... holistic manner.

[Mandate My Ass]

80. He has a hand that would get rid of that hard-on quite nicely

If he decides "no" means maybe, and forces himself on someone despite her refusal, he has issues that need to be dealt with that have nothing to do with the strength of his sex drive. I don't care how many drinks he's had. Alcohol ingestion by the perp or the victim has nothing to do with it either. It doesn't exonerate him or inculpate her.

[KittyWampus]

73. Then how do you classify sado-mashochists? Is that about sex?

[uppityperson]

7. Poor logic and an incomplete sentence:Rape is sex used as violence.

Rape is sex used as violence.

[KittyWampus]

74. Sado-masochists use sex as violence too. When it's 2 consenting adults

engaging in violent sexual behavior, is it still rape?

[uppityperson]

91. still poor logic, no and cats are animals

an animal is not nec a cat. Rape IS sex used as violence, but not all violent sex is rape. "rape is sex used as violencs"needs "without the consent of both parties" added to it to semantically further clarify.

[BuyingThyme]

8. Semantics.

[aquart]

11. You've misread.

Rape is not sex.

Rape is "the crime of forcing...."

"The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction."

"Abusive or improper treatment; violation; a rape of justice."

And all you saw was rape equals sex?

[greyl]

55. Yes, sharp point.

:thumbsup:

[KittyWampus]

76. And you cut short the sentence. Rape is the crime of forcing SEX.

It does imply physical contact involving sexual organs.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. Thank goodness! I feel better now!

[WilliamPitt]

14. I make in my pants sometimes.

[meisje]

16. try "Oops I Crapped My Pants" similar to Depends

[sendero]

15. All this semantic..

... bullshit about rape is damned amusing.

If rape isn't sex, tell me how many men don't "finish" during a rape.

If rape is about power not sex, I suppose mugging is not about the money, it's just about the power. We should see a rash of muggings where the wallet is not taken any time now.

People try to spin semantics to enforce there view of things on others. Some people are uncomfortable with "rape" being "sex" because they are afraid some will see it as some kind of excuse. Rape is definitely about power, it's also about sex some of the time, if not most, becuase power over another could just as easily be expressed with violence.

[NashVegas]

19. It's Amazing and Bewildering

That those of us who refuse to deny the sexual aspect of rape are being accused of blaming the victims.

Nothing could be further from the truth! Every poster I've seen get up and say that sex is indeed a part of rape has also said it's WRONG.

[sendero]

22. Exactly..

... as if "she was so hot I couldn't help myself!" is some kind of defense. Spin is spin and I don't like it coming from the left or from the right.

[omega minimo]

30. Interesting point

"Rape is definitely about power, it's also about sex some of the time, if not most, becuase power over another could just as easily be expressed with violence."

There's a disconnect there, if it's not understood that rape IS violence. Physical assault on the body is continued INSIDE by the rapist.

[sendero]

61. Of course it..

... is violence. So is a mugging. But the salient feature of a mugging is stealing the money, and the salient feature of a rape is penetration.

To act like sex is not a major component of a rape is twisting reality to the point that it is no longer real, and spin is spin, who needs it.

You, and those making your argument, are trying to take an act that has two main components, sex and violence, and acting as though the sex part doesn't exist. It does, otherwise it would not be rape.

[omega minimo]

63. I simply

pointed out a blind spot in that post.

Do not assume "your argument" or project whatever argument you're having ON ME. WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME GENERIC PERSON POSTING HERE THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

This projecting bullshit is why these "discussions" go nowhere but in circles.

HOMEY DON'T PLAY DAT.

[sendero]

64. Fair enough..

... if you are not claiming that "rape is not sex", then please exclude yourself from my generalization :)

[omega minimo]

65. Oversimplification only leads to simpleminded arguing

[undergroundpanther]

17. rape is using sex

as a WEAPON. A crime of POWER.
As for rapists I say Disarm them.

Cut it off.

[Oversea Visitor]

18. Rubbish it is like

The crime of forcing another person to submit to sucide acts. especially taking one one life

is called sucide.

Just because word use there is sex does not mean it is sex
look at word like forcing

By my example the definition using sucide is call murder, manslaughter etc....
Then murder is sucide ??????

Come on lets not try put head in sand x(

[porphyrian]

79. You're just making up your own definitions.

You can't define existing language in whatever way suits you and expect everyone else to understand or to use your meaning over the accepted one in the dictionary.

No one is saying "rape is sex." However, rape has sexual components, by definition.

[Solly Mack]

21. Sex is the weapon - but rape is about power/violence/control/anger

[omega minimo]

23. As your dicktionary shows, Rape Is In Fact FORCE

"The crime of forcing another person...The act of seizing and carrying off by force....violation"

[dysfunctional press]

32. and sex.

force without sex isn't rape.

[mondo joe]

44. Yes. Without both force AND sex it's not rape.

I don't see what is so distressing to so many.

[dysfunctional press]

48. a lot of people seem to confuse sex with love.

and that's where their distress comes from.

it's a puritanical american thing.

[omega minimo]

68. and yet "rape" is used generically i.e. "rape the land," "rape the ___"

"I don't see what is so distressing to so many."

Communications problems here may be repeating IF males are only looking at this from a male perspective
and not LISTENING.

It appears from some comments that different points of view are being dismissed and shouted down, rather than considered.

So what else is new?

:hi:

[mondo joe]

77. That's metaphor. I'm addressing definition and law.

And there isn't one male and one female perspective.

[omega minimo]

83. I said

"A male perspective" not "THE male perspective."

Surely you can comprehend what that means.

[mondo joe]

85. You said...

"Communications problems here may be repeating IF males are only looking at this from a male perspective and not LISTENING."

There isn't a MALE perspective and a FEMALE perspective here. The fact that males and females fall on all sides of the matter is evidence of that.

There are individual perspectives.

[omega minimo]

88. You are mssing the point on purpose

I said IF and even made it BIGGER so it would be HARDER to miss the point.

That encompasses "individual perspectives." :thumbsup:

[mondo joe]

90. To the contrary. I disagree with your point. -eom-

[omega minimo]

93. You disagree

because you misunderstand

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. What's at stake in this question?

I'm asking seriously. Why has this definitional dispute occasioned so much vitriol? What is it that the different parties take to be at stake here? And don't give me a silly answer like "intellectual honesty." That's a fancy way of saying argument for argument's sake. If we can't answer this question: what is at stake in the differing definitions, then all this noise is just that.

[walldude]

27. Exactly... the only point to these threads I can see is

to give the freeps and pundits something else to make fun of us for.

[Neil Lisst]

56. It's all about power and control ...

... of this message board.

You asked

Why has this definitional dispute occasioned so much vitriol?

Isn't it obvious that there are DU members who have a very rigid view of not only rape, but the LANGUAGE of rape and sexual violence? For them, the battle begins with words, and they fight over the words used because it gives them a sense of power, of control. This argument is about one group here wanting to beat down dissent on a point, and their trying to overpower that other viewpoint with condemnation and word fights.

[Cats Against Frist]

62. What's at stake is this:

If we all come to a consensus about whether or not rape has a sexual element, it will cause certain posters to not be able to launch the insane strawmen that I've seen. Very few people who are arguing that rape has a sexual component are outright arguing things like "the stripper was a temptress," or "she deserved it," or "she enjoyed it," or "women can enjoy rape, because it's sex," or that somehow the man is excused because he "lost control." However, to some people, implicit in the claim that rape sometimes has to do with sex is a lessening of the victimhood factor. I don't think that this is the case at all -- I think one can believe the crime is brutal, on one hand, and realize sociological elements that accompany this issues. The salient issue for me is that rape is eroticized, in both pornography and in erotica, and is a common sexual fantasy for both men and women. Power and subordination are inextricably bound up with sex through BDSM and role playing. This fact does not lessen the crime, but I think it points to the fact that there is a lot more going on with rape than simply a quest for power and dominance.

[tigereye]

96. yes, thank you

where are all these people with bizarre ideas coming from? Thank for being the voice of reason. (as you often seem to be!)

OP drops the bomb and surprisingly disappears....

[bettyellen]

87. people have referred to rape as sex- used the words interchangably and

refused to back down when corrected that rape does not equal "having sex".
trust me, i pretty much started this whole thing, unfortunately.

since then, dozens of people have put their own spin on it. including the disturbing one that sometimes rape is only about sex. some people take real issue with the experts' contention that a desire to dominate and control always takes a part in it.
of course a thousand other tangents have been travelled since then, but that's the genesis.

[helderheid]

25. Rape includes sex - it isn't sex.

[Mr_Spock]

28. Uggh

This is getting FUCKING RIDICULOUS!!!

Can't you people control yourselves?

Hide thread initiated.

[0rganism]

33. ..if one were to engage in a gross misreading of the dictionary definition

Let's look at that first meaning in a way that actually reflects the grammar in question.

"The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse."

Rape is:
1) The crime...
What distinguishes the crime from, say, vandalism or fraud?

2) ...of forcing another person to submit...
So immediately we see this is a crime of forcing one's way on another, like extortion or kidnapping.

3) ...to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
Sex is involved, but it is involved in the sense that it distinguishes rape from other crimes of forced submission.

Rape is first and foremost a criminal act. Furthermore, it is a criminal act of domination by force. Specifically, it is the criminal act of forcing another person to submit to sex.

It is not, in itself, sex.

[tuvor]

34. Pearls before swine.

Thanks all the same.

[goodhue]

36. That is not what I learned in law school

Encarta encyclopedia explains . . .

I. Introduction

Rape (law), sexual intercourse against a person’s will. Most experts believe the primary cause of rape is an aggressive desire to dominate the victim rather than an attempt to achieve sexual fulfillment. They consider rape an act of violence rather than principally a sexual encounter.

In the United States, rape is the most serious form of sexual assault punishable by law, but the definition of what constitutes rape varies from state to state. In all states, if a man forcibly subjects a woman who is not his wife to sexual intercourse against her will, he has committed the crime of rape. Recently, an increasing number of states have extended the definition of rape to include certain nonconsensual incidents of intercourse—even if force was not involved—and the rape of one’s spouse. In other states, rape remains narrowly defined as forcible sexual intercourse, but separate statutes address other forms of sexual assault, including nonconsensual (but unforced) sexual intercourse and unwanted sexual activity other than intercourse.

Many other countries also provide legal redress for women who are raped. However, some countries expect that women will be protected by sexual taboos (social prohibitions) rather than by criminal law. National military codes and international agreements such as the Geneva Convention (1949) prohibit rape by soldiers during times of war or civil conflict. However, in some instances military leaders have actually tolerated and even encouraged rape, either as a “reward” for soldiers or as part of a campaign of terror. Recently, human rights organizations have sought to protect women around the world from sexual violence and to hold those who victimize women, even during wartime, accountable.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Contributed By:
Susan N. Herman, B.A., J.D.
Professor of Law, Brooklyn Law School. Author of Crime Control and Civil Liberties in Criminology: A Contemporary Handbook.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761564013/Rape_(law).html

[lukasahero]

59. Thank you for this information

As horrifying as some of it is.

"Most experts believe the primary cause of rape is an aggressive desire to dominate the victim rather than an attempt to achieve sexual fulfillment."

"They consider rape an act of violence rather than principally a sexual encounter."

"if a man forcibly subjects a woman who is not his wife" - That caveat of "not his wife" is particularly horrifying as is "in some instances military leaders have actually tolerated and even encouraged rape, either as a “reward” for soldiers"

Can I go cry now?

[mmonk]

37. If so, then the definition of sex

should include rape.

[Fleshdancer]

39. I'll try to keep that in mind if a man decides to rape me

:eyes:

[Lars39]

42. ...

so you could "lay back and enjoy it", right? :sarcasm:
These threads have really been 'enlightening', haven't they?

[Fleshdancer]

43. lol...EXACTLY.

oh so VERY enlightening indeed. ;)

[Left Is Write]

40. Sex is merely the means for the rapist to exert power and control.

It's the vehicle, not the purpose.

[onenote]

45. true, but then again sometimes consensual sex is just a vehicle

for expressing an emotional bond...so does that mean sex isn't sex?

Silly semantic games. The crime of rape by defiition involves sexual intercourse. If its forcible rape, the sex is engaged in against the will of one of the parties. If its statutory rape, the law presumes an absence of ability to consent to the sex.

onenote

[Left Is Write]

47. However, the problem with saying "rape is sex" takes the focus

off the violence and puts it on the sex. People think rape is ABOUT sex, and it's not about sex at all.

[Bluebear]

49. And this is important to report why? nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

57. It's *because* it's sex that rape is such a serious crime

If the victim were forced, with violence or the threat of violence, to do something non-sexual, it would not be thought of as being so immoral.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. well intercourse is a part of rape....but rape and sex are different thing

[npincus]

60. NO, for the victim it's an ASSAULT of a sexual nature

a CRIMINAL assault (per definition above: "the CRIME of forcing another person to sex act...").

Sex is the REUSULT of the assault, as well as any other injuries suffered by the victim as a result of the assault, physical and psychological.

Rape is NOT sex. By "wrong",. you must mean "unlawful". That is not a moral judgement, it is a crime.

[Misunderestimator]

66. Murder Is In Fact Death!!!!

But there's a enormous difference between dying at the hands of a murderer and dying of a disease or an accident or old age.

What an asinine statement to make, especially in light of current events. What's your point?

[lukasahero]

72. Thank you

This is the most apt comparison I've seen. I may use it, if you don't mind.

[Misunderestimator]

84. Be my guest!

:hi:

[jukes]

89. EXCELLENT POINT!

i concur. y suspect the intent of this OP.

[insane_cratic_gal]

67. Force, force, force, is all I see in that statement

[npincus]

69. I have to say I find the whole debate dopey

[omega minimo]

70. That's it

too simple, i guess :shrug:

[insane_cratic_gal]

71. I think it is

Sex is chosen by two consenting adults.

Rape is forced act of violence upon an unwilling person.

Someone said above Murder is death in an attempt at humor. Oddly, it proves again beautifully the difference between force vs natural act; that is: force is force. Both Murder and Rape are committed without the express consent of the recipient.

I don't understand why this is an argument at all? Call me naive, but I assumed most people understood the simplicity of force used against another is an act of violence. It does not matter if it's War, Rape, Assault, or Murder.

It can not be an act of sex any more then pointing a gun at someone can be an act of peace.
It can not be an act of sex anymore then using your fists in anger is an act of greeting.

[baby_mouse]

75. Stealing Is In Fact Possession!

Soory, copycat, I know... B-)

[Squeech]

78. No, I think this is how it works

Rape is to sex as burglary is to visiting, or as invasion is to tourism.

[jukes]

82. ENOUGH!

can we move on please, and let the moles find some other topic to try y divide us?

[Sugar Smack]

86. So, where'd you go? Aren't you going to reply?

That's what I thought. :eyes:

[jukes]

97. back to his den

the light gets too painful after a bit.