Just to Clear Up Matter About Sex and Rape (Because I am Confused)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

Poll question: Just to Clear Up Matter About Sex and Rape (Because I am Confused)

Are we going over and over is rape sex? and sex rape? and other such semantic issues because if infact sex is rape then women have a duty not to titillate men? Or is there any other reason we are debating this? I do not understand this debate...

There is intercourse during rape...no one doubts that...so what is with all the rape is sex questions?

[aikoaiko]

1. some people think to admit that sex is a part of rape is to open the door

to blaming the victim as it was prior to the movement of 1970s feminists who referred to rape as an act of power/violence.

I think we should be able to move beyond that false dichotomy by now.

eta: not that I don't think rape victims are still blamed but because to deny the sexuality involved with rape is to diminish the special nature of rape itself.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. intercourse is a part of rape

and sex is a tool for the rapist...

[aikoaiko]

10. I agree, Rape is sexual violence. nt.

[undeterred]

2. sex is part of some child abuse

some adults find children titillating

[LaurenG]

4. Oh boy

"if sex is rape then women have a duty not to titillate men"? What, MEN have no self control? I must say whoever voted for that has decided that men don't have to be held accountable for their urges. It's a womans fault if a man can't control himself? :(

I could say so much more but why bother.

Hi lioness :hi:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

7. i didnt mean to imply i think so...but it seems to be where these

rape is sex threads are heading right? else why even having this stupid ridiculous debate?

[LaurenG]

9. I didn't think that you thought so, I think you are

so far ahead of that mindset that it didn't occur to me to think you thought that. I understood where you were coming from.

[realisticphish]

5. rape is sex, yes

but so is regular sex :shrug:
We can't blame the bad extreme on the base action; anything taken to the extreme will usually turn out negatively.

And, "titillation" isn't like a switch that can be turned on or off. Every woman will, more than likely, be attractive to some men, somewhere, just by existing.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. Rape isn't about sex, it is about power

namely complete power over another human being. The sexual aspect of the act always confuses things.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. rape is an easy way to inflict humiliation and subjugation

and sex is merely the tool used

[havocmom]

18. Yep

And calling it anything else is rationalization to one degree or another.

Another question:
Re prison rape, is it about sex or about power/who is top dog? Shoe on other foot for the gents.

[aikoaiko]

11. There are different kinds of rapes with different motivations.

I don't have the article handy to cite, but researchers find that rapists are generally motivated by both sex and power/humiliation in different amounts depending on the rapist type.

[William769]

12. Rape is sex.

But it is to seize and take it away by force.

[Strong Atheist]

13. Rape is a type of violence that involves sex, just like a shooting is

a type of violence that involves guns, and a beating is a type of violence that involves fists/feet...

IMO....

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. imo you are correct

[johnnie]

15. There are too many aspects of rape

That anyone thinks they will define rape on this site with a few debates is laughable. Ultimately I think that rape is about power, but there are many types of rapes and I think sometimes it would be considered more about sex than power being the ultimate motive. For example, stories of men raping women that are in a coma. I'm sure that there is a certain amount of a power issue involved there, but how much power can the attacker be feeling?

In the cases that we have been seeing of the teachers who have hooked up with their 12 year old students, do people consider that rape? Technically I would think of that as some form of rape, but I'm sure some would disagree with me. If it is rape, is the woman brutally over-powering the boy?

I have read a few of the heated threads on here the last few days and have just stayed out of the debates. Here are some statistics I found:

Key Facts

* Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted.
* One in six American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape, and 10% of sexual assault victims are men.
* In 2003-2004, there were an average annual 204,370 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault.
* About 44% of rape victims are under age 18, and 80% are under age 30.
* Since 1993, rape/sexual assault has fallen by over 64%.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/

This Duke case seems to have really sparked off some heated discussions here at DU, but I think the debates go deeper than the rape issue here. Just look at that first statistic.. that's fucking beyond belief. If the people here were as passionate in the real world about this issue as they are on a message board, things might be a little different. Arguing back and forth on here does nothing. In the years I have been here I have yet to see a response to a post stating something like "Hey, you know.. you just changed my mind. All those years of thinking the way I have and in a matter of one post, I think the opposite..thank you!"

Sorry for the long post.

[Atman]

16. Gosh, and the mods moved my YIP-YIP thread to the Lounge

I think we need a new forum..."The Loony Bin."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5048315

[La Lioness Priyanka]

21. i dont think my thread is loony really...

my point was... Why are we debating what rape is? I think the reason we are doing this is solely to blame the victim...

[Atman]

26. See, I never saw that angle at all

I mean the "soley blame the victim" angle. I think some people are trying to hammer the issue, over and over and over until they can get EVERYBODY TO AGREE, and they're freaked that some neanderthals are still posting replies indicating blame for the victim. It's a vile conceit, and the thread-posters don't seem to want to stop talking about it until EVERYONE agrees.

DU...Trying to build utopia one post at a time!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. ok, maybe solely was pushing it...

but its this idea that the victim-rapist both share some responsibility...and this is where i disagree...

[Ravenseye]

17. Seems simple to me

I don't know what all the hoopla is about.

What two CONSENTING adults want to do to each other sexually is between them.

If one person forces themselves against a NON-CONSENTING person sexually, it's either harrassment or rape depending on the severity.

Arguing the semantic definitions of sex versus intercourse versus rape is a strawman. The whole issue is consent, not whether rape is about sex or violence.

[Dissent Is Patriotic]

19. Agreed. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. i agree

my point was...are we debating whether or not this is sex...only to then come to the conclusion that since rape is about sex...we can now start blaming the victim?

[Ravenseye]

27. Well I don't think most people understand what it's about

If people get into a debate about whether or not rape is sex, they're missing the entire point of why it's wrong. Why it's a crime.

Some consenting adults like to tie each other up, and slap each other around. Some put bags on their partners heads, or choke them, to cause asphyxiation while having an orgasm. Personally I could never take part in these activities as they turn me off far more than turning me on, but the point is that there are plenty of people in this country who CHOOSE to do these activites to each other. The same physical reconstructions of a rape. The difference between them is not anything that physically happens, but the consent of those involved. It simply doesn't matter whether or not Joe Schmoe wants to define rape as sex, or not. It doesn't matter. Rape may involve sex, but Rape isn't about the action, it's about whether or not both people are consenting to the action.

The argument that Rape=Violence versus Rape=Sex misses the point entirely, and anyone who blames the victim should be ashamed of themselves. It doesn't matter if a girl strips naked and then passes out drunk of her own accord (ie say she wasnt' even drugged) in the middle of 10 guys. If they have sex with her unconsious body it's rape. If you are in that situation and you are a man, and it's your sister or daughter who passes out like that what would you do? Would you let the other guys have sex with her because obviously she 'wants it', or would you cover her up and take her upstairs to sleep it off?

How you answer that question answers the question of whether you should blame the victim.

[Atman]

23. Thank you!

Can we end these incessant rape threads now?

[mondo joe]

22. I think some people attach meanings and values to "sex" that some people

don't.

For those in the first group, "sex" means it is a shared or pleasurable or approved experience.

For those in the second group, "sex" is a value neutral term that just means associated w sexual intercourse.

[Atman]

24. That is because the word itself has multiple meanings

And in fact, the "mutual shared pleasurable experience" isn't really one of the actual definitions. "Sex" is much more of a "scientific" term, and that is where a lot of the confusion emanates.

[mondo joe]

25. I happen to agree with you - I'd use the more scientific or at least legal

definition for this purpose. But I think the discrepency I described is the issue.