I am not a wedding gift

[WindRavenX]

I am not some object to be "given" to a man.
If I chose to remain a virgin, it should be my choice, not my father's, my brother's, or my mother's. It is my choice.
If I want to not remain a virgin, it should bemy choice, not my father's, my brother's, or my mother's. It is my choice.
I am not some object to be opened. I am a woman.

I cannot even begin to describe how fucking creepy it is for a father to "give" his daughter's chastity as a gift to a man.
I'm not bashing the religions or cultures that practice this; I'm bashing the practice.It's a big distinction.
But I am not an object, and I won't let myself or my daughters become one.

[wtmusic]

1. The religions and culture are part and parcel of the practice

and are best regarded as quaint historical relics.

[madokie]

2. Right on, as us old hippies are sometimes inclined to say

[Ravenseye]

3. Ok, but how far do you take it?

If your daughters get married, would you let their father walk them down the aisle?

Also, though i'm not disagreeing with what you're saying, I think it's interesting that you talk about how you aren't an object to be given away (and you're not), but then close the post with "i won't let myself or my daughters".

What's the difference between a father giving it, and you holding it back?

[benburch]

4. My parter and I walked each other down the aisle.

There seemed to be nobody else with the right to do it!

[WindRavenX]

7. that's what my partner and I intend to do as well

I'm lucky my partner is a big feminist as well. I love him.

[central scrutinizer]

27. aisle? we didn't need no stinking aisle

We got married at home in our living room - paid the justice of the peace's clerk $35 (plus a $20 tip) to come over. We sat around and chatted for a while, had a couple of friends and family members for witnesses, stood up, the clerk read her part, we said the I do's, she signed and notarized the wedding license, done. The clerk brought her young daughter along and she really enjoyed it.

[Ravenseye]

29. That's cool

I couldn't have done that. I would have needed some sort of ritualism to the event, and had it be outside the living room. Like in a park, or forest, or somewhere with a good view. Someplace special to remember. My wife and I still, to this day, when we drive past the chapel where we got married comment on it.

In fairness it's a kick ass non-denominational chapel.

[teenagebambam]

31. Where is that?

[Tesha]

40. The image URL suggests it's the Heinz chapel in Pittsburgh, PA. (NT)

[Ravenseye]

48. bingo

Heinz Chapel in Pittsburgh. You have to be a University of Pittsburgh Alumni or member of the Heinz family to get married there.

[central scrutinizer]

44. we would have done it outside but it was the middle of winter

in Oregon and raining cats and dogs. We got married on January 1. That made it really easy to remember our anniversary day, but I have to think hard to remember what the year was. Was it between 1985 and 1986 or 1986 and 1987? Pretty sure it was Jan. 1, 1987.

[WindRavenX]

5. I guess I should have noted...

...I have no daughter's yet. I was presuming (which is a mistake on my part)that any hypothetical daughters I might have in the future would be like me and wish not to have these standards/partake in this ritual. If they want to, hey, I'm not going to stop them. I wish, though, that the conditions that encourage this ritual change, because I think if women were more empowered, this practice would fade away.

sorry I was unclear.

[Ravenseye]

14. So many of the 'rituals' have really antiquated meanings

My wife is a pretty ardent Feminist and she had her dad walk her down the aisle. Obviously we could see how this ritual came about, but for my wife it was something she had really looked forward to. More like her father walking her in and giving up being the most important man in her life to me. I have one daughter (still don't know the sex of number 2 on the way) and it brings tears to my eyes thinking about walking her down the aisle. I don't own her, in fact since she's a toddler right now I think she thinks she owns me. Yet when I give her away, it'll symbolize to me sort of a father letting his daughter go, not in a possessive sense, but one of "I won't be your main protector anymore."

Now, some might argue that women don't need 'protectors', and they'd be absolutely right. I plan on raising my daughter, and any future ones, to be strong, assertive, and independent. Men though are pretty basic. We are fixers and protectors, even when women dont' need anything fixed or protected. We annoy women more than not because of this. Anyway for me it's not about possession as it is ceding the right to be annoying to her new husband.

Each to their own though. Personally I wanted to elope and get married on a beach in Hawaii, but my wife wouldn't have it.

[WindRavenX]

19. I'm not disagreeing with what you wrote, but...

...another reason is that historically, and even today, wives have been seen as being *literally* owned by the father; "giving" the daughter to the son-in-law was a financial transaction as the soon to be son-in-law had to pay a dowry...
So I guess the actual historical reasons is another reason why I am so opposed to this ritual.

[Ravenseye]

26. Yeah but at a certain point that really stopped

Women AREN'T the possesions of their fathers, at least in this country...for the most part. I actually joked with my wife's father about what Dowry they were going to offer. I had him going for a minute.

The thing is SO many things we do today that we don't even think of are based on somewhat barbaric rituals that have been cleaned up and essentially disneyfied into nothing. At a certain point we reinvent these rituals into things we are more comfortable with.

Take the white wedding dress for instance. Few realize that the white doesn't just 'symbolize' virginity, but it was white so the husband could actually take the virginity from her in the dress and show people the blood, now easily seen on the white dress, from breaking her hymen. Today though it's just a really pretty dress that makes the bride stand out in the crowd and make it 'her day'. Talk about twisting an old ritual.

I'm not so much concerned with what I see as harmless rituals, or ones that have taken on new meanings, simply because of their original purpose. If we didn't do things because of historical reasons, we'd barely be able to do anything. Heck even walking down the aisle has symbolism tied to it.

I tried to interject surrealism into our wedding, and the only way I would agree to a traditional wedding was if I had two concessions. One was a firebreather, and the other was a juggler. I got my concessions.

Sometimes it's ok to know the history of a ritual, while just having fun going through the motions of it and have it take on new meanings.

Like I said though each to their own. If it upsets someone then they shouldn't do it.

[Inland]

23. There's always an amount of "doing it for the family", anyway.

My wife and I did what would please our parents and entertain our friends. Anyone who knew us wouldn't take any adverse "meaning" from the rituals, and anyone who did, like my mom, well, we sort of wanted to fool them anyway. The only person that deviated from the ritual was my father in law, which I appreciated, as I was supposed to kiss his hand as he gave the bride away and his massive paw held me in a handshake. So there you go.

[Ravenseye]

28. Yeah I think it was half for my wife, half for her mother

The rest of us were along for the ride. Actually scratch that...

20% my wife, 80% her mother.

My father-in-law just held the shotgun pointed at me for most of the time, until the minister finished marrying us, and then they untied me.

[Inland]

36. And what does the father of the bride get to do?

A walk down the aisle. If it makes him happy, well, why not. All my family wanted was an open bar immediately following the ceremony: we have our own set of firm and unmoveable expectations about what should occur at a wedding.

[Ravenseye]

51. Yeah that was my father in law as well

He had two requests. Walk my wife down the aisle, and an open bar which he would pay for.

I didn't argue.

[foreverdem]

42. My dad walked me down the aisle

None of us considered it barbaric or archaic, it was just what we had always seen and expected, I know what you mean about the adverse "meaning" of the ritual. No one took it that way. My mom never even referred to it as him giving me away, but rather the first man in my life escorting me to the last (hopefully) man in my life.

But to each his/her own, people should do whatever they are comfortable with.

[Gormy Cuss]

32. The tradition is ingrained in girls from an early age.

Frankly, most women don't think about it and its historic routes. It's just part of the tradition of a formal wedding. The same couples who discard other traditions, like the bride's family paying the lion's share of the cost, still include this outmoded gesture. It's part of the little girl fantasy wedding scenario.

The test I applied was this: what is the parallel tradition of giving away your son? Do male children not need your protection too? Do mothers give up there role as most important woman in their son's life, or does the absence of a 'giving away' gesture mean that the wife is on notice that her mother-in-law will always be the more important woman ?

The more I thought about it, the more I knew that it was a tradition that deserved to be discarded.


on edit: cool chapel pic. I bet it's lovely inside.

[Ravenseye]

49. It's gorgeous inside

Some of the tallest stained glass in the country and world. Makes for great colors.

[Fleshdancer]

10. "would you let their father walk them down the aisle?"

If my daughter gets married, she gets to make this decision, not me.

[WindRavenX]

12. (see my response #5)

I agree with you--I made a poor assumption on my part.

[Kber]

41. My parents walked me down the aisle.

My husband's parents walked him down the aisle.

The synbolism wasn't so much our parents "giving us away" as our moving away from one primary family to form our own. We took the last few steps down the aisle together, side by side, to symbolize our mutual acceptance / decision to marry.

Wouldn't have changed a single step.

[mondo joe]

56. If my daughters marry it's up to them to decide how.

It's not up to anyone else to "let" them do it as they see fit.

[Cats Against Frist]

6. The thought of that makes me sick to my stomach

No woman's virginity is another man's to "give," and I, personally, think the practice of the father walking the daughter down the aisle, at weddings, is kind of disgusting. But, then, I think marriage is kind of disgusting.

[WindRavenX]

9. as marriage is practiced today, I tend to agree with you

I love the idea of being together with someone for the duration of our lives, but there's something unsettling in how marriage is practiced today, especially in America.

[AirmensMom]

15. What do you mean, WindRavenX?

The fundy version, the divorce rate? What? I'm just curious, not getting uppity.

[WindRavenX]

24. A little of both

And I think it's hard to completely seperate those two issues-- both enforce the other.

I won't get into the history of marriage, but I think we can, for the most part, agree that the fundie "golden years" of the 1950's and 60's is restrictive upon the woman; the sociatal norms and expectations of society were crushing women. For example, the double standard of women remaining chaste but telling boys to be manly and sexual; the fact women were encouraged (this may be a kind word) to be domestic and discouraged from being seen as someone other than "so and so's wife".
The divorce rate from this era was very low; but it's because it was a norm to not divorce. Now that divorce isn't as big a taboo, I believe it shows that there is a high level of unhappiness in marriage. I see wonderful marriages-- people who are friends and who are happy. Today, I think people see marriage not as a partnership, but rather as something that must be done in order to be accepted into society. Thus, I think, many people marry simply to GET married rather than to truly BE married. Does this make sense?
I guess you could say I think people marry for the wrong reasons, of which there are many...

[AirmensMom]

33. Yes, I see your point.

Many marriages are unhappy ... but as I see it, the problem is with the people involved, not the institution of marriage. I've been happily married for almost 30 years to my best friend. I realize we don't represent the majority of married people. I don't know if anyone really marries for the "right" reasons, but they're reasons that work for those people at the time. I'm sure we might have had some wrong reasons in our decision to marry, but whatever those reasons were, they are not necessarily the same reasons we stay together. As we get older, we change. Many couples simply grow apart. I see that a lot.

I completely agree about the double standard! I remember when I was a teenager and getting the impression that boys could do what they wanted, but the would never marry the girls they were messing around with. I always thought that was ridiculous.

[Ravenseye]

17. What's unsettling about it

I'm with someone for the duration of our life, and the wedding was for us mostly about just celebrating that decision with our friends and family followed by a tropical vacation.

How is marriage practiced today in America negative?

[gollygee]

20. Do you mean how weddings are practiced?

or do you have a problem with marriage itself?

I quite like being married and can't imagine how it could be considered unsettling.

[WindRavenX]

25. the practice

My partner and I want to be married today. But we will practice it in a very non-mainstream way :)

[wicket]

30. A Yankees icon in Boston????

Sorry neighbor, couldn't resist ;)

[TahitiNut]

35. I think it's the ceremonial anachronisms, not marriage itself.

Even as a male, I regard the 'giving' and 'virginal white' and many of the elments of the traditional marriage ceremony to be appalling. I don't agree with wedding rings. I don't agree with "dower rights." But my agreement isn't a prerequisite for others, even my bride(s).

As I've said before, I think that altogether too many customs are appallingly sexist. Lipstick. High heels. Jewelry. Make-up. All of these are part and parcel of the commoditization of a human being. It's insane, imho.

[AirmensMom]

13. "But, then, I think marriage is kind of disgusting."

What's so disgusting about two people making a promise to each other? :shrug:

[derby378]

8. My wife walked herself down the aisle

Nobody "gave" her away. She came of her own free will. And for that, I am grateful.

[WindRavenX]

11. aweome

Your wife sounds very cool :)

[MountainLaurel]

21. In our wedding vows

We decided to clearly state "I give myself to be your wife/husband" rather than "I take you...." It was a very clear statement that were were going into this of our own will and missed the "business transaction between men" element.

Happily, we missed the walking down the aisle controversy by getting married with no family members present, on the other side of the planet. That would have gotten sticky, because my father was one of those whose main contributions to parenting were sperm and a whole lot of anxiety taught with a belt and a raised voice. If anyone was going to escort me, it would have been my mom and grandmother. But, as I said, we got to miss that problem.

[coffeenap]

43. Me too! Then, both of my parents met me at the end, I kissed them

both, and walked, again alone, to stand next to my husband-to-be. We have been married 22 years. It was the only way I would "present" myself--MYSELF!

[trogdor]

16. But you are dressed as one.

Sorry, couldn't resist the Monty Python gag. Just make sure you don't weigh the same as a duck.

[GeorgeGist]

18. I feel it's a gift to belong...

with someone.

[Fleshdancer]

22. I'm pissed that we have to say this in 2006.

I'm going to be slightly obnoxious and cross post my rant from the thread about a man wanting to buy a 12 yr old virgin because it applies here as well:

This has been a crappy week for women. Actually I think 2006 is the year of the anti-woman and I'm over it. States are challenging our rights to our own bodies, other states are voting on bills making it illegal to cross the state border to have an abortion even if you're an adult...yeah I know these are challenges to the Constitution but it still infuriates me. Pharmacists think they can judge us and deny our legally prescribed medications. People are blaming rape victims, creepy assholes want to buy virgins...perhaps he should go to that equally creepy daddy daughter virginity pledge thing. This sucks ass.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=975317&mesg_id=975317

:grr:

[bloom]

34. Exactly

The whole thing is obnoxious and insane.

The other thing about this virginity obsession - is what about women who are raped before marriage? Just one more thing to feel bad about.


And the thing about having surgeries to make women a "virgin" again for their husbands is obnoxious and insane, as well. I don't have the proper words to say how totally ridiculous I think this all is.

[Lisa0825]

37. Something that annoys me...

is the phrase "to lose one's virginity." OK, I didn't misplace it, and I didn't go looking for it afterwards. I had sex. I refuse to use that phrase. i just refer to it as "my first time."

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. silly girl, it's not YOU that is the gift in such systems of thought

It is 1) your vagina and 2) your labor. End of story.

[nini]

39. I don't get most of the traditional wedding crap in general

the thought of me walking down an aisle to be given away to a man waiting at the front is nuts. I am independent and strong, and I will be a partner in my relationship - not his posession.


I agree with you completely on this.

[Zorra]

45. Excellent post. n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

46. It's neither you, nor your chastity that is given. It's....

the certainty that offspring are the biological progeny of the man. It's patriarchial insecurity translated into oppression.

[GliderGuider]

47. I'll even take that thought a little further

A person's sexuality is one aspect of their lives that should be totally under their control, to do with as they wish. Due to biology, this applies especially to women. This also applies equally before and after marriage, an event that I see as a statement of commitment to another person, one that has a whole lot more to do with facing life together than it does with what either party does with their reproductive organs.

I've been married twice - once back in the early free-love '70s, and once during the 80's and 90's. In neither case did I place any particular expectation on my partners regarding sexual behaviour. That was something I expected each of them to work out for themselves, and I expected the same consideration. I respected their decisions - though they arrived at two very different positions, which was fine by me.

Having been married and divorced twice, I have come to see the institution of marriage as a quaint custom that is more valuable to those with little experience of long-term relationships. It's kind of a relationship exo-skeleton, if you will. My current (once-married) partner and I both see it that way, and given the baggage that the institution carries we actively counsel anyone who asks our opinion about their upcoming nuptials to head for the horizon :-)

Now, I was brought up in a free-thinking household, and I know my views are a minority opinion. My first marriage was at sundown on the summer solstice of 1971, under a weeping willow tree on the front lawn of my my parents' home in the country, officiated by a mystic computer science professor, and incorporating elements of Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic, Christian and secular philosophies. My second marriage 12 years later was in my parents' living room, officiated by a Unitarian minister, with the emphasis squarely on secular and personal worldviews. In neither case did anyone "give" me my bride - physically, emotionally, metaphorically, sexually or financially. Our objections to the notion were well known, and fortunately shared by all. In nether case did the form or even the fact of the marriage have any bearing on the outcome of the relationship, except perhaps to add some acrimony to their closing chapters.

No person is a chattel, and anyone who thinks they are needs a gentle, loving, but uncompromising intervention. :hippie:

[mondo joe]

50. YES! And kids need to learn that they own their bodies.

Too many parents - out of fear or whatever - fail to teach their kids that their bodies belong to THEM and to them alone.

Small wonder they end up pressured into doing things with their bodies they don't want to do - all they've ever learned is that their bodies are a commodity that everyone but them has a right to control.

[unblock]

52. in jewish tradition, the bride must at least make the final step herself

it is not uncommon for the bride to walk down the aisle with her father or both parents, at least for a portion of the journey.

however, the bride must make the final step herself, the groom must make a gift of significant value (typically livestock in days gone by, a wedding ring nowadays), and the bride must accept it willingly.

both groom and bride must sign a ketubah, which is a marriage contract. again, the bride must sign it knowingly and willingly, in front of witnesses who also sign the ketubah. the ketubah includes the husband's duties to his wife, and is traditionally displayed in the bedroom as a constant reminder.

[happydreams]

53. You saw NOW on Friday Night. That pissed me off too.

These anti-abortionists simply want to keep women barefoot and pregnant.
The rich simply pay their doctor to provide the service or fly out of the country.

It is all about keeping women down.

[jukes]

54. just creepy!

i can't describe how VILE this is!

[saracat]

55. I think Weddings are beautiful and a symbol of commitment.

My most treasured memory of my Dad is his walking me down the aile. My mother had passed away or I would have had her escort me as well.I viewed it as a celebration of a new life with the blessings of the old.No one is a more ardent feminist than myself and I too question the istitution of marriage but wedding traditions are whatever they mean to the participants.
I did not feel as though I was "given'to anyone and I certainly made my own "choice' to proceed on to another phase of my life.I find it a tad offensive that you would think what I consider my parent's Blessing as "fucking creepy" ! But that is JMHO
And BTW, I am also aware that I didn't need anyone's blessing but there is nothing wrong in the expression of love, approval, and encouragement.

[mondo joe]

57. I only hope my daughters marry orphans.

I don't want to have to marry another family and have to get used to all those people. What if they're Republicans or like McDonalds or something?

Like I keep telling 'em, it's just as easy to love an orphan as someone with parents.

(Just semi-joking.)

[Phx_Dem]

58. nice post

I read through that thread about purity balls and it really is a little bizarre. why don't the mothers do this, why the fathers? Seems to me that a mother is going to be involved a lot more than the father regarding the daughters sexuality.