Toughen Up. A wee rant.

[cali]

If you're going to suffer serious emotional harm by viewing messages on a board, you probably shouldn't be on it, or at the least you should steer clear of topics where you there's a high likelihood of encountering said aforementioned messages. Skinner and the mods do a good job of cleaning up over the top comments. They deserve kudos for it, and I'm glad to tip my hat to them.

A political message board is a rough and tumble place where opposing ideas get hashed out- sometimes none too gently. I happen to embrace this form of debate, as, I believe, do most here, .
Yes, people sometimes say things that offend me. Tough for me. I try and respond smarter or cleverer. Sometimes I say things that offend others. I've been knocked for it. Sometimes I apologize
Other times I think I'm in the right, but it's all part of the debate. And by and large, it's healthy.

Cheers, cali.

[sharp_stick]

1. Respond smarter or cleverer?

Is that like being a decider? ;-) (just kiddin)

[cali]

3. nah, I deserved ribbing for that.

I knew I was being a little er, creative with my vocab.

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. That's not a wee rant

You should here my sister going off about the lines for women's restrooms at a concert. Now that is a wee rant.

:rofl: :hi:

[ContraBass Black]

4. Seconded.

[Atman]

5. Thank you!

Perhaps you'd like to take part in my current poll...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=976933&mesg_id=976933

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. Well said. From someone who has tangled with you.

I have thrown out my share of opinions and been attacked for them. I'd be amazed and disappointed if I wasn't called on to defend them. And, I've had my mind changed by arguments, not always polite, that forced me to rethink my position.

Of course there is the alternative of being always in agreement....

[cali]

7. Thanks, Tierra.

and ugh, how boring would it be if we were all in agreement?

[Squatch]

8. Where's that alert button....

[cali]

14. heh. eom

[Mandate My Ass]

9. Well, being a board nanny isn't being tough or encouraging

debate. :shrug:

Calling out is calling out. You're doing it while you've criticized others for doing the same. Peace.

[cali]

13. No I am not calling anyone out.

I've been thinking about this for quite some time-even prior to the rape topics taking over the board. Nor am I being a board nanny. I'm not telling any individual what they should or shouldn't say.

[Mandate My Ass]

15. but you are telling what they should or shouldn't do

If you're going to suffer serious emotional harm by viewing messages on a board, you probably shouldn't be on it, or at the least you should steer clear of topics where you there's a high likelihood of encountering said aforementioned messages.

That's no different than telling them what to say. Someone started a thread asking if there should be more sensitivity on certain emotionally-charged topics and you clearly disagreed. THis thread's very existence implies the other thread shouldn't have even been started.

You want debate and so does that person. Why start another thread telling people to "toughen up" rather than continue the debate on the other poster's thread?

[cali]

18. This is a general

message. That's it. You want to read more into it than there is, that's fine.

[Mandate My Ass]

20. So you agree you were being a board nanny

Telling people which threads they should stay away from does nothing to promote the "rough and tumble" debate style you claim to favor. It limits debate because those who are offended don't contribute anything worthwhile in your estimation. Peace.

[Joe Fields]

24. Look, it is just sound advice.

If you are too emotional as to be really upset when posters get in your face, then this isn't the place for you. Cali didn't say for anyone not to be here. Just do so at the risk of your own mental health.

So what's the problem with that advice?

[Mandate My Ass]

27. I don't believe asking for a little sensitivity is being 'all emotional'

And she did say for people who think they might be offended by a certain topic stay away from it. I wonder why pointing out that the debate is degenerating into a flamefest, and suggesting restraint, not valuable to the discussion.

I agree with cali that I expect I will be offended when I come here. I don't agree that asking for consideration is somehow out of line, especially when the offense is broad enough to hurt a lot of people, not just the person asking to tone it down. The debate can be much more fruitful if people at least attempt to refrain from inflicting harm on others.

[seabeyond]

32. is the bashing one sided or both bashing each other not listening

to each other? i got out of the thread cause...... well people were putting words in my mouth and then bashing me good. the ones that are asking us to be sensitive. considerate. so really this is a question since you are in the threads? are both sides bashing each other. or one sided. just something to think about, to get desired results. not a one way street.

[Mandate My Ass]

36. I never said it was a one-way street

I was responding to the OP's claim that rough and tumble is the way debate should be and you should stay out of threads where you might take offense to what is said. That's probably impossible but it's also unreasonable. I don't know what was said to you in those threads or who put words in your mouth but that was wrong of them and I hope you told them so. Doing so does not make you "too emotional" to contribute to the discussion. It adds to it.

I wasn't taking a side, I was merely pointing out that talking about offensiveness, deliberate or otherwise, and how to avoid it is a valid topic of debate.

[seabeyond]

38. i agree. i dont haev to be combative, though i may not agree

i dont need to attack when i disagree. further i allow someone may simply not agree with me, that is cool. i just have the right to disagree with them. anytime it reduces to name calling, my hands go up. it is a useless conversation. my goal in the chats, is to expand.

i think the particular conversation on the board last 24 hours is huge. and with the amount of women on this board, i think we women can accomplish a lot. but.... i also found, only one path is allowed with certain subjects, and if you arent on these paths, even as woman, hear me roar, i am the enemy

i can handle that too. but.... you can darn well bet i am going to challenge that thought process too. cause it is not healing in my opinion, and i would prefer to accomplish something, not escalate the problem

anyway. thanks for your answer

[JuniperLea]

44. only one path is allowed with certain subjects

Or you are called names, for sure. I fail to see how a person can call themselves a liberal and not be fully supportive of all points of view that don't include harming another.


:shrug:

[seabeyond]

45. especially when i am right, bah hahhaha. teasing. ya.... n.t

[JuniperLea]

49. hehe! n/t

[seabeyond]

10. if you are so emotionally tied to something. then it is pretty

well stating that about anything that goes off the path of belief will upset the person. a person can be totally non offensive, and still create a pain for the person, totally unintended. for anyone to have the expectation that we as a group can discuss a topic with such limited view is unrealistic.

i suggest it is the responsibility of the vulnerable individual to take care of themselves and not subject themselves to the possibility of upset, rather than depend on posters or the moderators to be able to identify what will upset the people, and what would not

[johnnie]

11. Yup

I don't know what people expect from this place. I get pissed off at things here and there too on here, but I also realize that there are a lot of people here and they are all different.

Actually, it sort of makes me laugh when I see people in a thread and they get more pissed off at each other as the thread grows. Like they will change each other's mind if they keep going at it. :eyes:

Then again, sometimes I think certain people are here just to fight it out.

[Joe Fields]

12. Thank you, Cali.

This sums up the way I feel. This is not a "touchy feely" forum for people to pour out their innermost demons, as if this replaces the psychiatrists couch. Most here try to not offend anyone, but in many areas of discussion people's feelings run strong and usually, but not all of the time stop just short of name calling.

In other words, if you can't take it, don't dish it out. Politics and life are full contact sports.

[Inland]

16. Those who have no intent beyond being provocative, however,

deserve criticism. There's nothing healthy or a debate when a post is intended merely to vent outrage or to elicit outrage.

[madokie]

17. Each day I come here I come to learn something new,

I've had to appologies so many times but I learned something each and every time. I have my beliefs and if you show me where I am wrong I will love you forever for it.
peace to all.
:hi:

[Virginia Dare]

19. Here, here!!!!!.

I don't understand why people are drawn to threads that they know will piss them off or offend them somehow?

:shrug:

[VelmaD]

21. goddess forbid...

anyone should EVER have to moderate how they speak to show sensitivity to the feelings of other people

Didn't your mother ever tell you you can disagree without being disagreeable

[cali]

22. You are missing the point.

And yes my mother told me many things, including the above, but rough and tumble political debate was very much part of my family tradition. I NEVER said that I believed people shouldn't moderate how they speak in deference to others. I do so frequently. I try to keep my ear attuned to what's being said and who's saying it, but again, I don't expect not to be offended.

[VelmaD]

23. Here's my real problem...

My issue is that some people on this board, if you tell them they have offended you or hurt your feelings, DO NOT CARE. They will flat out tell you that they don't care. I don't know about you, but when someone tells me I've hurt them, I try to talk to them, understand why, and apologize. Even if I don't think I was wrong...the fact that I hurt them bothers me. And it usually means I did not express myself well. I'm a firm believer that most topics can be discussed, even ones that are emotionally charged, and that people can discuss them without hurt feelings if they just try. That's all I'm asking people to do...try to be sensitive. From your last post I don't think you are the problem...but there are people on DU who take your basic point to an extreme and hurt people, sometimes on purpose, and don't really give a shit.

[cali]

31. That's boorish behavior, but

you can't mandate caring. From my experience the majority of DUers aren't like that, but there are always exceptions. When I run into those people, I say what I think of their behavior and move on.

[cally]

25. We have to learn from other's personal experiences

and not see it as sensitivity or hysterical overreaction. An imigrant has different experiences than most of us. Where the racism minorities face every day may make them hypersensitive in your eyes, I value and learn from their personal experience and opinions. I don't want to limit insight and discusssion to the pseudo-intellectual argument that ignores other's reality. I think we have to learn from others in order to be fully human. I don't know what it's like to be an adult survivor of childhood sexual abuse but I learn the reality from others. I think we can learn from other's sensitivity and experience including the many who have been raped.

[VelmaD]

26. Thank you...

that was well said. :yourock:

[cali]

28. Sure we can learn from others,

but one person shouldn't put forward their experience as true for an entire group. That's been happening, and it's OK to point that out. In fact, I think it's vital to point that out.

[Mandate My Ass]

29. That was lovely

Thank you for posting it.:pals:

[seabeyond]

34. but.... at the expense of not sharing truths cause they

may be protecting themselves so much, they cannot hear what another may see as a truth. you get the perspective of the one raped, but only that perspective. and asked not to challenge any of that perspective because it may be painful. and what about the woman that was raped, but doesnt have the same perspective as the groups experience. then does that person have to hold tongue and not share their truth out of consderation for sensitivity

these are legitimate questions i haev not to flame, and not to hurt someones feelings. do you see. even for me to aska legitimate question may cause pain. how much sensitivity is required. me keeping my mouth shut?

[Dora]

30. Toughen up, certainly. But get nicer too, people. My rant in response.

You do NOT always have to have the last word, people. You do NOT have to prove yourself "right" in each and every thread you participate in.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO USE DU AS EXERCISE FOR YOUR FLACCID EGO.

And if you are compelled to use DU as a thighmaster for your self-esteem, how about a trying a little exercise in truth and kindness, rather than blindered righteousness?

Are we an army of brilliant and compassionate and liberal Americans who are trying to lead ourselves and our countrymen into the light, or are we a flock of wooly fools screaming in the echo chamber while our house burns down around us?

<What's that!!? I can't hear you!!! Somebody next to me is yelling that rape isn't always rape.>

(edited for word choice)

[VelmaD]

33. Wow

:yourock:

[cali]

35. For someone who wants "nicer", I find your post

ineffective. It was hardly a plea for nicer. As for me, I'm not immodest enough to consider myself as part of the following: "brilliant and compassionate and liberal Americans who are trying to lead ourselves and our countrymen into the light".

[VelmaD]

37. Maybe this place and this world...

would be a better place if we all tried to consider ourselves "brilliant and compassionate" and trying to "lead ourselves toward the light". I'm just saying. Just because we may not be there yet doesn't mean we shouldn't strive.

And I think the poster was trying for irony. A rant on being nicer...*snort*

[Dora]

40. I don't care if you think my "plea" was effective.

We've met in another thread and disagreed, not on anything important. I've seen enough to know that I prefer to steer clear of you and your threads. I posted here to contribute to this conversation, not to engage in a dialogue with you in particular.

Fight the good fight - you in your way, me in mine.

And I will gladly, with humility and with pride, take up the torch to try and lead if I am so called to serve. Call me immodest if you will: sticks and stones, y'know? I know who I am, after all.

[Batgirl]

39. As frustrating as it sometimes is I wouldn't change DU if I could

It really is just a slice of humanity after all. Even with many members making it a priority to conduct themselves with care and decency toward others, we'll sometimes fail. It can't ever be some kind of utopia where we can bring our damaged, vulnerable selves to be wrapped in a virtual cocoon of acceptance and understanding. Yes, there are many instances of political incorrectness, snark, dumbassery, misinterpreted humor/sarcasm, and even just plain meanness. There have also been instances of incredible generosity and support, and you can sometimes observe the same posters appearing in both kinds of threads. Probably most of us are just like that in real life, we have a mixture of attributes and our good and bad days.

I'm not in favor of placing speech controls on the populace at large merely to silence the few that actually are irredeemable assholes with nothing positive to conribute to the conversation.

[JuniperLea]

41. good call!

I would only add that perspective is everything and no two people have exactly the same viewpoint. That doesn't mean that one is wrong and the other is right. It's almost always opinion. We need to allow everyone to have their own opinion or we must give up the right to have our own.


Carry on...

[seabeyond]

42. and it doesnt mean you are insensitive. n/t

[JuniperLea]

43. Exactly

Things have been heated lately. I'm trying to point out what is MY opinion... clearly stating that this is MY opinion. It might not be like yours, but we are both entitled. I'm a little more than annoyed at the thought police lately, so I'm trying very hard to be completely clear.

I'm empathetic to a fault. Seriously. I will defend someone's right to a belief even if I don't believe it myself. We have to be careful. DUers always complain about having things crammed down their throats, yet many have no compulsion about doing exactly that themselves.

[seabeyond]

46. yup yup yup n/t

[Fierce]

47. The way I see it,

If someone says that opening up GD and seeing seven or eight threads saying things like "RAPE OR SEX?" or "DO YOU HAVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH RAPE?" gives them uncomfortable flashbacks, then I don't think the answer is to say "Can't take it? Eh, then get out."

It still surprises me that self-described "progressive" men have backwards attitudes toward women, but it shouldn't.

[cali]

48. I'm not a man.

And I have personal experience with the subject matter.

[Fierce]

50. I'm sorry to hear about your personal experience.

I'm glad you're able to come into a place and not be stricken by seeing a lot of posts on it.

Some people still have that problem, and I don't think we gain anything by telling them to get out until they're done getting over it.

I'm also done being surprised that progressive women help those "progressive" men right along in their own oppression.

Edited for typo.

[seabeyond]

51. so here ya go,.... and even if you have experienced and you are

woman and you dont see it the same, you are now merely a progressive woman who helps progressive men being oppressed. oh btw, did i say, sorry for your experience, and please, can you be more sensitive to what? the true rape victim???? but that's not offensive my progressive dude, is it?

[cali]

52. Oh for pity's sake.

I understand that women heal or don't heal in different ways, and I'm sympathetic to those who find discussions painful. I'm not telling anyone to get over it. My OP wasn't directed only at women who have suffered rape or sexual abuse.

And I am offended by the suggestion that I'm helping "progressive" men to oppress me. See? I'm offended. Big deal. That's part of the deal on a political board.

[Fierce]

53. In the climate going on,

I assumed that your OP was directed at the many rape/sexual abuse threads. My bad.

Offended is part and parcel of a political board. Trying to decide whether you should log on and deal with a PTSD flashback shouldn't be, is all I'm sayin'.

[seabeyond]

54. so if it was about the rape thread, you offending the poster is ok?

are we to not have anything to do with war, bush policy because a soldier who is having flashbacks may come on

no accidents or anything because someone may have lost a child in similar accident.

your argument doesnt make sense. but..... you offending is fine. you get to judge, what offfense should be allowed.

my perception was one way, until the latest rape threads and behavior and how some people can be as nasty as they want, and others must shut up.

or

they are opressive, or any number of other names that someone wnats to label on them.

[Blue_Tires]

55. ttt n/t

[rucky]

56. All the soldiers coming home with PTSD should get over it, too. n/t

edited for: :sarcasm: