Regarding rape threads...

[Mythsaje]

I think those people who usually post in rape threads are caught in something of a trap. The women to whom it's happened have a personal emotional investment in the case, while some men draw back and say "God, I hope it's for real, and if it isn't, that I'm never falsely accused." Cold, perhaps, but I believe some actually have that reaction.

I honestly think that is what motivates some men to respond so negatively to the whole thing. They're scared to death of being falsely accused... I think it's as difficult for the average guy to understand the whole rape scenario and its aftermath as it is for the average woman (esp. rape survivors) to understand why this fear resonates so strongly in many men. Rape can destroy a person. But, for all intents and purposes, a false accusation can destroy a person as well. Different kind of destruction, yes, but still something we'd be remiss not to consider.

It may also be an irrational fear, but as an arachnaphobe with social anxiety, I'm pretty familiar with the dynamics of irrational fear.

I don't think ALL of these guys are trying to be offensive. Some probably are. But one has to recognize that there's a certain element of fear in their denials...if ANYONE can be falsely accused and dragged through the mud, it could happen to them as well. This isn't anything any guy wants to happen to him. Not only would he have to go through the humiliation of a public trial, he'd be sure to be castigated (if not theoretically castrated) here at DU.

A fate worse than debt.

Now I definitely tend to believe the woman in this particular instance. Her being a stripper doesn't count against her (though that whole industry is as corrupt as any, as far as I'm concerned--it exploits both men and women, in my view), but those accused being rich white frat boy types DOES, I'm afraid, count against them.

Ironic, but I'm more prejudiced against spoiled rich brats than I am strippers. This said, I have to take into consideration my own prejudices in this case and realize I know very little about it. Was she raped? According to the report, she was. Do I know who's responsible? Hell, no. I just hope a court of law will actually serve justice in this case and make the culprit pay.

I THINK this comment is diplomatic enough to be flameproof, but I've been surprised before.

[Virginia Dare]

1. It's an issue that is unresolvable...

not even here on DU! ;-)

Men can't think like women and women can't think like men. I've been staying away from those threads for the most part because they quickly degenerate.

I will say this, there have been rapes that have occurred where the men probably went to their graves never realizing that they were rapists. I personally know someone who went to jail for raping his wife and he swears to this day he didn't do it. Who knows, I wasn't there, but the jury found reason to convict him. He was a friend of mine, and I certainly would never have dreamed he was capable of something like that. This was supposedly the second man that this woman had accused of raping her, but that fact was inadmissible in court.

On the other hand, how many wives would have the courage to come forward and accuse their husband of rape?

Our society is trying to play both sides of the fence. Billions of dollars are being made on sexual exploitation, while we pretend to abhor it. We see by the Duke case what rotten fruit this bears.

[Mythsaje]

2. I avoid those threads usually

because they are so full of conflict that never seems to resolve. There are no easy answers...but everyone wants there to be.

[Caoimhe]

3. Only 2% of reported rapes are found to be false

but I see people always want to give the alleged rapist the benefit of the doubt, because we are innocent until proven guilty. That's great, and I am all for understanding that men and women think differently, but why are so many scared of such a small percentage of false "entrapments"? To be honest, I just don't understand what the draw is for these "conniving females" to file a false report, be subjected to a rape kit exam (oh yes, how fun!), be photographed, have their sexual history delved into, have their criminal history spattered all over the newspaper, be maligned as loose or easy and be regarded as "damaged goods" (yes, sadly that societal view still exists).

And this is just the opinion of me, a 35 year old married woman with no children and lots of pets:

So many outrageous things are attributed to women, and have been since Adam and Eve! I hear idiots say they think women use abortion as birth control, (because having your uterus scraped out is so much more convenient than using a condom or taking a pill :sarcasm: ). Or this one is priceless: women will wait until they are 8.5 months pregnant and say "oh gee, I didn't want this kid after all" :sarcasm:. We've heard talk of the "welfare queens" that seem to suck sperm from passing irresponsible men, forcing society to pay for their broods and their junk food habits (wasn't that one a favorite of Reagan?) These emotobabblish red herrings have been tossed around for years by shock jocks and hyperradio, trying to make that 2% or that whatever small percent, into the SHOCKING MAJORITY! We aren't evil, we aren't out to steal your money, your balls, your sperm, your truck, your big screen tv. Yes maybe 2% are, ugh.

In regards to this Duke thing: I think we would be hearing an entirely different view of this on the media if the girl in question were WHITE and the team was the Duke Basketball team instead, regardless of her or their past.

[Virginia Dare]

4. I agree with most of your opinions, however..

I'm not sure about the black/white issue and the Duke case. Remember when Kobe Bryant was accused of rape, and the smear campaign that went on against that girl (who was white)? As I recall, she even had death threats against her.

I think this case has more to do with the glorification of the male athlete in our culture, which is why these guys probably felt comfortable putting themselves in that situation, they probably never dreamed it would get to this point, whether a crime was committed or not.

It is all part of the very sick society we live in today, where priorities are totally out of line.

[crispini]

10. "glorification of the male athlete"

Nail, meet hammer. Very nice. Food for thought.

[onenote]

5. I wish people would stop repeating that 2 percent figure

since it is completely unsubstantiated.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2234396&mesg_id=2238839

But whatever the number is makes no difference. Even if 99 percent of all reports were false, it wouldn't mean this one was false. And if 99 percent of reports were true, it wouldn't mean this one is true.

onenote

[Neil Lisst]

6. yeah, there are wonderful sources online that trace the history

of that tale tall to its origin. It has been used as a battering ram the past 30 years, used any time anyone dares to question the accuser in a rape case.

Hey, even if it's only 2%, that is 1 out of 50.

The 2% number is a myth, and those who use it never want to look at data developed any time in the past 25 years, or even statements by the FBI on the topic the past 25 years.

[Virginia Dare]

18. It is an impossible number to quantify in my opinion...

which is why I shared the story about my friend, and you're right, every situation is different.
:hi:

[Caoimhe]

24. Maybe guys should just stay away from women

since we are so desperate to suck their penises into our vaginamagnets.

OK I know that is juvenile, but damn. Please tell me what a woman gets out of falsely claiming rape? Other than a cold metal speculum shoved up inside her, cranked open and her vagina scooped and scraped... her body photographed by strange police officers, her entire sexual history delved into, her choice of employment scrutinized, the inevitable harassment from the rapists friends/relatives,etc and the wonderful "damaged goods" label that will hover over her head for perhaps EVER?

Men, be more careful who with and how you use your trouser snake. We aren't all aching to get at your goods.

PS check out the website www.perverted-justice.com some time. I realize the goal there is to catch men and women who prey on underage children, but read the logs. There are some twisted ideas going on in lots of young mens minds that need to change in a big way!

Flame away!

[dsc]

27. It depends on who the man is

If he is rich then the woman could be after money. It certainly isn't unheard of. I am by no means saying the Duke accuser is lying but some women lie and do so for various reasons. Watch Rosewood for another example of a woman who lied about rape, in her case to save herself from an abusive husband. Even the 2% figure would mean that literally hundreds of false rape reports.

[TahitiNut]

28. Yep. It's a totally bogus "statistic".

Reputable analyses indicate anything up to between 27% and 41%, largely from later admission of the claimant of making a false claim. Remarkably, prosecution of such false claims are extraordinarily rare.

Rape is an appallingly heinous crime, whether it's "date rape" or "marital rape" or whatever. Very nearly as heinous is a false claim, imho, since such frauds serve only to discourage victims from reporting and permit rapists the cover of increased doubts. It's an evil of appalling dimensions.

[XemaSab]

9. "People always want to give the alleged rapist the benefit of the doubt"

Oh, I don't think that's the case at all. People are tried and convicted in the media every day of crimes they didn't commit.

[frustrated_lefty]

13. Every 50 minutes a man is falsely accused of rape....

The numbers don't exactly jibe, but if sexual assault occurs on any average of once every 2.5 minutes, that suggests that someone is falsely accused once every 50 minutes. So, yeah, that is a scary notion for a guy.

I realize 2% sounds laughable to be concerned about. Maybe it is.

My heart goes out to anyone who has been a victim of rape. It's a horrible, horrible thing.

-fl

[Mythsaje]

14. As someone pointed out

2% translates into 1 out of 50.

But the fact is I'm not talking about a rational fear. I'm talking about an irrational one, and the fact that any male could potentially be a target of something like this and every male knows it. Not one of us would want that sort of thing to happen to us...no more than any woman would want to be raped.

I think some of the reaction is subconscious...a collective "yeah, but..." Just in case. Kinda like most guys wince when they see someone in a movie or on TV get nailed in the balls. I don't...never have that I can recall. But most men do.

I think for some reason this is a similar response and not meant personally in a lot of cases. Of course, there are probably some where it IS meant personally. I just think the hostility gets out of hand sometimes.

Just my POV.

[marions ghost]

20. agree with you

except for the last statement about how it would be different if it was the predominantly black basketball team being accused. I think you might find a lot of blind support for athletes, no matter what the racial component. If the white woman was an exotic dancer, she would be assumed to be a "lower class" woman and therefore in our culture, fair game.

[Caoimhe]

23. I agree to a point

but I also think it has to do with the status of the accused. We all knew Kobe Bryant wasn't gonna get convicted, come hell or high water. He has too much $$ and too much prestigue. Tiger Woods could go out and rape 12 women, kill 4 of them, leave DNA and golf balls with his finger prints on them, all over the scene and people would be defending him until Armageddon.

I don't care if she was a hot 25 year old prostitute wearing absolutely nothing and grinding her goods with a banana. It's not okay to rape her. I agree with you there, it's assumed she is lower class because she is an exotic dancer. Sadly, most people have no idea how many women, white, black, hispanic, asian, etc that help pay for college this way. It doesn't mean they deserve to be raped.

I am so sick of rich, white boys of privilage being handed halos when they fuck up. Remember the southern church burnings last year? Mostly black, poor churches, burned up by a bunch of rich, white southern gentry. Oh, forgive our boys, they dont' know what they were doing.. they're just kids having fun! Here's a check to pay to rebuild your church. So sorry! There is no justice.

I am not convinced that the 2% is invalid. Since most rapes are NOT reported, this comes from the number which are. Of course, the rape would have to be revealed to be FALSE to fall into this category. I'm sure many false rapes never get exposed for being false. However, I think most men would be wise to keep their peckers in their pants and save it for girls they know and love. Your odds of being "trapped" are far less then.

[Nobody]

16. We can all think like humans

We are all innocent until proven guilty. Includes rapists.

But that doesn't mean that rape victims weren't raped. Or that women who aren't virgins who have never set foot outside her home except in the company of male relatives can never be raped.

Most rapes are committed by people known to the victim. The weapons can be intimidation instead of knives and guns. When intimidation is the weapon, the victim often doesn't get justice.

There have been surveys done of college students. The one I'm thinking of came out in the 1990s. Yes, that's not that long ago. The survey found that about 20% of college students thought it was OK if a man took a woman on a date and expected sex in exchange. (by the way this kind of quid pro quo is prostitution of a sort) But the startling thing is this: That 20% figure was women (men was higher) who thought it OK if the man pressured her for sex after he paid for the date. Women.

Men can be rape victims, and though it's rare women can rape. Male victims usually don't come forward.

We need to enlighten ourselves as a society and do the following:

Let's treat each person with respect due to all human beings.

Let's teach our children that they are more than a beautiful body. Value their personalities and minds. Teach them so well so society can't make them unlearn it.

Let's start working on society so that we stop trying to live in a perverted Puritan cesspool of celibates who are obsessed with sex. We're not allowed to get any, but we have sexual images shoved at us by the marketing industry.

[bloom]

7. The one thing

about false accusations - is usually there is not much of a motive. And it seems like the accusations fall apart pretty quickly.

It also seems like an awfully convenient way to get out of a rape. If the guy can convince people that she had it in for them or something.


In the Duke case - while there has been a lot of sympathy for the victim in her community and around here - I think in the long run - with Duke's PR campaign and all - the woman's background will be used against her. Like what's going on already with Savage.

It is an opportune time for people to consider the problem of rape on college campuses and elsewhere. I know the nearby University was doing some awareness training. There needs to be stuff like that to counteract all the other pro-rape messages in society.

[marions ghost]

15. I know so much more

about the credible accusations of rape that I have no feel for false accusations or men's fear of it. I've never heard anyone talking about being afraid of this. Based on statistics this would seem to be an irrational fear to me.

Q--If a woman has an examination within a short time of a rape and the results are "consistent with rape" --how then is "false accusation" likely?

That's one statistic I would like to see--how many women who do go for the examination immediately and have medical evidence are accused of 'false allegation' and even lose their cases against the accused?

Edit --Wait a minute...more thoughts in a social-psychology vein:

Isn't having this fear in itself kind of incriminating?
Doesn't this fear mean men are afraid they may not be engaging in fully consensual behavior, because they may not be? Is there any truth to the idea that adult males do not understand in 99% of cases whether their partner is consensual or not? I realize that alcohol and drugs may cloud perceptions, but I have a hard time believing that most men do not know the difference.

Is this "I might be accused of rape someday" some sort of male prowess fantasy? Or flashbacks to that bad Michael Douglas movie--ie.a fictionally hyped theme creeping into the collective psyche, where fear sells so well.

Or is this particular fear indicative of a fear of women in general? Would like to see the study that would correlate that.
-------------

I agree that it may be important to look at male attitudes about sex to understand how this male fear factor plays into it. Where I'm coming from...mostly what men worry about is paternity.

[alarcojon]

17. Good Points

Doesn't this fear mean men are afraid they may not be engaging in fully consensual behavior, because they may not be? Is there any truth to the idea that adult males do not understand in 99% of cases whether their partner is consensual or not? I realize that alcohol and drugs may cloud perceptions, but I have a hard time believing that most men do not know the difference.

I think most, if not all, of my friends know the difference - consensual, mutually enjoyable sex is worlds apart from coerced sex.

However, I do believe there are many men who get their ideas of sex and relationships from the media, pornography, and the herd mentality they often promote. For them, the world is one full of young, attractive, sexually available women who they are entitled to sleep with. These are the men who think a woman is "asking for it" if they let the guy buy them dinner, or if they dress a certain way, or if they have a certain sexual reputation. For them, I think the prospect of a false rape allegation must be terrifying, which as you point out is an incriminating fear.

Kudos to the OP for bringing this up in a measured way.

[bloom]

22. "men are afraid they may not be engaging in fully consensual behavior"

I think that nails it.

Sure there are women who from time to time may come up with a story. But some men - even around here - are really invested in discrediting rape allegations. And I think a lot of men are really in denial about how much rape takes place. Even among their "friends" who may have been "falsely accused" - which they may say if that is their only "alibi".

Seems like if a lot of men are honest - they have know men who probably bragged about something that was not entirely consensual. But some don't seem to worry about that nearly as much as they worry about "false rape" allegations.

[Mythsaje]

29. Maybe it's the kind of guys I hang around with

but I don't know ANY guy who's bragged about this sort of thing. Of course, I've almost always preferred to hang around with women, so... :shrug: Maybe guys do brag about it, but I don't socialize with those who would.

[bloom]

33. One thing that I've noticed

that I think is funny - is how it is some of the same men around here who get quite bent out of shape if they think that women are implying that men can be sexist - who I've seen rant about sexist, boorish men. Apparently as an attempt to differentiate themselves.

It seems like a case of "I can criticize members of my group - but you can't" type of mentality. That is how I see that.

[Mythsaje]

35. Men can be complete jerks...

Insensitive louts. I don't care if women point that out, but I'm damn sure not one of them and I want to make that clear from the get-go.

And, frankly, I think that most of the men here AREN'T that way, but they may feel defensive when slapped with an overly large brush.

I know women who take the word "bitch" as a compliment, and tend to be arrogant and self-absorbed. Do I talk as if all (or even most) women are that way? Hardly.

[bettyellen]

26. yep, posters rationalized men "got too excited" or misunderstood or

confused to know if they had consent. as if a yes or no is so hard to understand?

funny, this coming from the same fellas who wanted to play the semanitcis angle and refer to rape as sex.
you think there might be a connection there?

[Mythsaje]

30. See, I think that's nonsense...

No is no. It's not that hard to understand.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. This Issue, As With Any To Me,

I post on and about only for the sake of accuracy, logic and fact. It isn't more complicated than that to me for any topic I post on. I see a subject, I use deduction to form the most accurate opinion I can and I proceed to post that opinion. If I see gross inaccuracy or unwarranted attack I'm generally prone to the impulse of posting then as well too in an attempt to set the record straight or call out the absurdity. But overall, it isn't about anything psychologically deeper within any given topic to me, it's just about 'hey, a topic for discussion, hmmm, this seems to be the logical deduction to that debate'. I think many other DU'ers operate in a similar fashion. They see a topic, their brains use whatever reasoning they can to form an accurate viewpoint, then they proceed to post on it. Though I do agree with you, that there are some that definitely have ulterior motives or are constantly posting in the same topics all the time merely to cause trouble or feel self righteous. But I do consider them to be by exception, not by rule :)

[fishnfla]

11. I remember when my college roommate was falsley accused of rape

during the whole ordeal, his father kept reminding him how lucky he was because in the old man's day, a person of their ethnicity would have been lynched on a white gals claim.

Times change, so does prejudice I guess

[Jade Fox]

12. How many men.....

have bullied a woman into having sex at one time or another? Quite a few, in my experience. Much of this culture gives men the idea that that kind of behavior is okay if you can get away with it. So it becomes difficult for men to know for sure when they've crossed the line.

I think men have fear, but also guilt about rape cases because they and their friends may have come very close to crossing the line at some time in their lives, or did nothing when some other man did.

[Virginia Dare]

19. Exactly Jade Fox...

That is my point about all of this. If a man "bullies" a woman into sex, he probably would not consider it rape. There are lots of otherwise moral, law abiding men with responsible jobs and families walking around out there who have done this. They are rapists, but they'd never admit it.

[Blue_In_AK]

38. It happened to me many times in my youth...

...before there was the present awareness of a woman's right to say no. There were a few times where the guys were so insistent about it that I just went along so as not to make a scene, but I sure didn't feel good about it afterwards. Was it rape? I don't know - I never brought any accusations. We just more or less accepted the fact that young men tended to be octopuses and couldn't keep their hands (and other parts) to themselves. I'm glad the perception has changed.

[omega minimo]

21. We understand "this fear resonates so strongly in many men"

and "that there's a certain element of fear in their denials..."

The problem on DU is when that fear/denial turns to belligerance/antagonism that kills threads and violates DU Rules. It "cheapens the discourse for everyone" and leads in big, pointless circles.

That fear/denial/belligerance/antagonism appears not only on rape threads but on many/most that involve gender issues and a meeting of male/female points of view. The endless/pointless cycle as it repeats on DU has proven how much FEAR has to do with it.

Above you say "everyone wants easy answers and there are none." On DU, the easy answer is Follow DU Rules. Read DU Rules. Try to act with an understanding of what it means to have Rules "based on Respect."

Wounded male pride striking out due to irrational fear is not a news flash to women-- in fact it generates much of the abusive and violent behavior that is so difficult for DU to discuss rationally.

And I appreciate your thoughtful OP, mythsaje

[Mythsaje]

31. But on the other side of it

is where the guys are subjected to things that seem as though they're being attacked en masse for stuff they've never done. Smeared with a broad brush. I've seen this myself. That is also against DU rules.

When women go on the attack on these threads, the only acceptable answer is "You're 100% right." No caveats allowed. Propose a single "yeah, but..." and you're flamed.

I don't usually post in these threads, but I read a lot of them.

OF COURSE this sort of thing is going to make guys defensive.

[omega minimo]

39. There are two sides

Unfortunately, too often the "defensiveness" precedes any "attack." It is that irrational fear that makes some feel threatened --and go on preemptive attack-- by a simple comment.

This is what kills discussion. Which is why some of us avoid certain subject/threads altogether.

"But on the other side of it is where the guys are subjected to things that seem as though they're being attacked en masse for stuff they've never done. Smeared with a broad brush."

It takes a certain amount of confidence to read something that might seem too personally affronting AND REALIZE THAT IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU, UNLESS IT IS. The recurring gender wars here have shown that certain topics or comments women ARE NOT ALLOWED to talk about in general terms, without immediate attack from touchy, "smeared" male egos. No matter how careful we might be with language and using "SOME" and "IF" and qualifiers or humor, frequently the kneejerk hostility is instantaneous.

This is what kills discussion. Which is why some of us avoid certain subject/threads altogether.

[bloom]

25. Alas on False Accusations -

It’s also important to realize that the connection between false rape reports and false rape convictions is weaker than most people assume. First of all, it’s quite possible to make a false rape report without making a false rape accusation. For example, a teen girl seeking an alibi for staying out late - or for being pregnant - may make up a story of being raped by a stranger. But if all she claims is that a stranger raped her and she can’t identify him, then no one has been falsely accused....

Finally, the large majority of reported rapes never lead to convictions at all; and, since false rape reports probably have less evidence supporting them than true rape reports, it seems likely that they lead to convictions even less often. Even true rape reports, unfortunately, are unlikely to lead to a conviction; how much more unlikely when the report is fiction?

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/04/18/false-rape-reports/

------------

Even a site that links to all the Freeperish anti-feminists says that Ontario, Canada tracked the rate of false reports at 5.7%:

http://www.equityfeminism.com/archives/years/2002/000010.html

Even if true - if one were to take into account how many rapes are reported - not that many - then in the overall scheme of things it's pretty small.

---------

The bottom line - There wouldn't be so much to argue about if some people weren't so intent on discrediting rape victims.

[Mandate My Ass]

32. Exactly. Police thoroughly investigate before they talk to a perp

The men on these threads make it sound like all some woman has to do is walk into a police station or ER and without a shred of evidence other than her word that she was raped, and some man's life can be turned into a Kafka-esque hell. It just doesn't work that way. The interview is exhausting and detailed and there must be some evidence before the police will agree to look into it, let alone arrest someone. Even with DNA, in most cases the only witness to the crime is the victim, so there is a he-said/she-said quality to the testimony, with the benefit of the doubt going -- deservedly so -- to the accused.

The men here would deny it, but there is a "purity test" quality which is the basis of their opinion. I don't care if it's a prostitute that just serviced the 5th Fleet, if she's walking home and someone forces himself on her, that's just as illegal as if it happened to a virgin in church.

[Mythsaje]

36. That "purity test" point doesn't make a difference to me,

though, unfortunately, the defense will make use of it to great effect.

However, eyewitness testimony in most other crimes is considered the least reliable of all. In many rape cases, that's all they have.

In acquaintance or date rape situations that's not really a concern. Then you just hope the woman doesn't have a screw loose and an axe to grind...

I've had sex on first dates a number of times--the weird part is that I don't think I've been the one to initiate it since I was a teenager. I remember being surprised every time it happened. But it might have been risky behavior now that I've had time to think about it. Sex with the wrong woman could have disastrous consequences.

[newportdadde]

34. It reminds men of the 'crazy girlfriend' or is maybe she is lying.

Women do lie about it see Tawana Brawley. It might be isolated but it can and does happen.

I've watched from afar on these various threads because I want to wait until all facts come out until then we all just speculating but I found the OP interesting.

I think the fear of being wrongly accused resonates with some men. I know it would for one of my close friends. A fear years ago he dated a 'crazy girlfriend' you know the kind you hear about cutting up all of a guys clothes after a breakup or fight or taking a can of paint and pouring it all over his car that type of thing.

This girl however was much scarier during the breakup she calls 911 then yells at the phone "Leave my son alone don't hurt him!" and quickly hangs up the phone, all the while my friend is just standing there, kid isn't even in the room. Well cops come etc.

2 weeks later we find out she had been dating one of the local cops and now files a restraining order and it is served at his workplace causing him work issues.

So for him the issue of false rape would certainly put fear in him. Having known this girl I can say it something I could see her trying to do.

For myself I'm actually biased against the Duke players, two reasons one they are wealthy which I am not and they got to grow up with the special athletic treatment which I didn't. I'm trying to keep an open mind but it is difficult.

[Mythsaje]

37. These women DO exist...

I've known a few of them myself. Thankfully not in the "biblical" sense, but I've seen the kind of hell they've put guys through.