Should we rebuild New Orleans?

[debbierlus]

Poll question: Should we rebuild New Orleans?

I am curious as to the views of people here on DU about re-building New Orleans.

[Cooley Hurd]

1. I voted YES - who the hell voted NO?????

To the "no" voter - how about I bulldoze YOUR house and say, "tough shit?" :grr:

[reichstag911]

12. I did, for one.

It doesn't seem to make sense to rebuild it when we're not going to have the money or the will to do it right. We're already hugely in debt, largely thanks to Republican administrations, and this would be an unprecedented undertaking. Additionally, keep in mind that gloabl warming is going to be increasing both the frequency and severity of these hurricanes; meanwhile, New Orleans will still be sitting basically at or below sea level, and the outlying wetlands that formerly took the brunt of these storms are rapidly disappearing. Until we get our act together ecologically, rebuilding New Orleans would just be a financial sinkhole for taxpayers, and a major boon for contractors looking to rape the system.

[Cooley Hurd]

16. You know, I don't live in NOLA, but I know how I would feel...

...if my home was destroyed and no one gave a damn.

It's all about COMPASSION - NOLA can be rebuilt SAFER than before.

[dysfunctional press]

22. and what do you intend to do about global warming?

rising ocean levels and hypercanes are on the not-too-distant horizon, after all.

[Cooley Hurd]

24. I plan to vote Democratic...

...next question? :eyes:

[dysfunctional press]

67. well, that's fine..BUT-

even if we cut co2 emissions to ZERO, tomorrow(which obviously ain't gonna happen)- it'd still be too late to stop the ocean level rise that's going to swamp N.O....

so, i guess my next question is the same as the first, since "voting democratic", even if everyone in the country did it, IS NOT going to stop it.

[Bluerthanblue]

36. screw global warming-

One thing we can ALL count on- we're ALL gonna die-
What do you intend to do about the people in the world who die for lack of a morsel of food?
For lack of a sip of clean water?
Because of the actions of a corrupt government that flies the American flag?

If we are gonna throw in the towel on NOLA- why stop there? Lets just all drink the Kool-aid and get it over with once and for all-

"Your money or your life" shouldn't be a question people struggle with-
I guess I'm seeing the absolute worst side of 'free-market' economies- People hoard and hoard and become selfish to the extreem.

This nation should hang its head in shame. We are not the people we say we are.

[dysfunctional press]

68. it'll be a HUGE shame if we pour more money into a lost cause.

especially after all that's been and will continue to be wasted in iraq.

LOTS of funds are going to be needed to relocate coastal populations as the ocean levels rise- and we have to start the relocation somewhere- new orleans is as good a place as any.

[Tesha]

108. Nobody's telling you to die.

Some of us are simply saying that rebuilding NOLA
where it was is a foolish investment and we'd
prefer not to invest *OUR* money (either directly
or in the form of taxpayer-funded subsidies).

Tesha

[Bluerthanblue]

114. no, you are saying

that it is foolishness to rebuild New Orleans- saying that it is likely to have tragedy befall them yet again- Well, it is foolishness to try and elect a government that really gives a shit about the little person- so, what is the alternitive? Give up? Move to another country that American Imperialists can then decide to rape?

Our taxpayer funded subsidies are spit compared to the BILLIONs and TRILLIONS of dollars that are re-lining the pockets of the richest of the rich here in the good ole usa.

Would you rather spend "your" money- (don't forget it ain't only YOUR money- many of the wealthiest people in the USA pay the least taxes, because they keep their money sacred, and invest it in ways that they don't have to give any of it away-) My lousy 2000. a year may not be much but when you look at it in proportion to what my total 'value' is it means the difference between going to the doctor for stitches, or using perozide and butterfly bandages- It means the difference between having to drive an 18yr old car that was given to me by a kind stranger who was going to 'junk' it- and struggle to pay the cost of gas, at 26 mpg, when I'd not only LOVE to own a Prius or a TDI that could burn bio-desiel. And living in a rural area where there is absolutely NO public transportation- no busses, no trolleys no trains, no subways, and the nearest grocery store is NOW over 15 miles away thanks to big corporations squeezing out our local IGA-

Life IS a 'losing battle' Tesha. I've lived too long and seen too much crap to not be moved by the plight of others who for NO FAULT of their own- (other than being born into place they are born into) do NOT have an 'equal' chance at having a reasonably contented or successful life- Or to believe that we can avoid tragedy by doing what is 'logical'.

Hence, when I state the extreem solution to the uncertianties of living in this world, let alone NOLA or any other area that has recently undergone a terrible tragedy, I am stating the only truly 'fool-proof' solution.
Life IS a crap-shoot. I lost someone I cared about deeply to a missed diagnosis, and surgical error- No ammount of money would have brought him back, nor would it have changed the FACT that health professionals are HUMAN BEINGS and fallable- Why should those who died in 9/11 and their families be treated differently than those who lose loved ones every single hour of every single day to tradgedies that SHOULDN'T happen? What of the Columbine victims? The OKlahoma City victims? Should we force everyone on the shores of florida to leave their homes because they are going to get hit by another hurricane eventually- sooner rather than later? Sure, money pours in when the media plays the heartstring chords- but for most of this world, there aren't any 'grief-gifts' to placate the families whose losses may not be as publicized, or politicized, but who mourn none the less.

The media shafted NOLA- America is shafting NOLA- because we can't wage WAR on what nature is doing- or extract revenge on anyone for what they suffered. And If we can't blame someone, so then lets blame the victims, and by GOD, let's not let them put us in the position of likely having to 'take care of our own' again, and maybe do better this time??

Where do you create a NEW- New Orleans? Everyone says that we should 'relocate' them- to WHERE???
How would you like to be told you must abandon what you've known as home forever-?? Again- I'll compare the notion of 'relocating' the folks in NOLA to the plight of the Native Americans, and the Palestinians- There IS no 'free-land' in the USA- Land that is habitable, and no one lays claim to-
If we say to those in the lower districts of NOLA "you can't come back"- we are giving up on them- giving up on people who had so little to call their own in the first place-

and i for one won't stand by silently and let that happen-

pause in rant-

They are You- YOU are them- would you want to be told 'you aren't worth it'?

[Tesha]

116. But you don't have a choice to stay or go.

> How would you like to be told you must abandon what you've known as home forever-??

But you don't have a choice to stay or go, you only have
a choice as to when you go. NOLA will be gone. If not
today, then in a few decades.

Now, I suppose one could argue that a few decades is
long enough to justify rebuilding, but that's an awfully
big expenditure for a relatively short stay (in the
grand scheme of things, or even in the scope of your
own lifetime).

Remember: You'll spend hundreds of thousands of dollars
for something that will have *NO RESIDUAL VALUE* in a
few decades. None, zip, zilch because it *WILL* be
underwater. At this point, it's just about inevitable.

Tesha

[Tesha]

107. I did for two.

Global warming will make NOLA (and lots of plain old LA)
history within a very few decades.

Tesha

[reichstag911]

35. PS Nobody "bulldozed" their houses;...

...they were destroyed by a natural disaster. Therefore, your analogy is wholly inapt with regard to those of us who voted "No." :think:

And your reply to my post did not address my points. Just saying that we "CAN" do it doen't mean we must. We should maybe take the hint that Mother Nature has given us about living in low-lying inland coastal areas prone to hurricanes...

[Bridget Burke]

81. "Lower 9th Ward activists chase away bulldozer crew"

Lower 9th Ward activists chase away bulldozer crew
Razing of homes after storm disputed
Friday, January 06, 2006
By Gwen Filosa, Gordon Russell and Bruce Eggler, staff writers.

With a cell phone crooked in her ear and scores of activists cheering her on in the 2000 block of Reynes Street, lawyer Tracie Washington sent a backhoe and its crew packing from the Lower 9th Ward Thursday morning.

It was more than a seemingly symbolic victory for Washington and her group, the Peoples Hurricane Relief Fund, which is representing homeowners in the Lower 9th Ward and will ask a federal judge today to stop up to 2,500 demolitions of homes damaged by Hurricane Katrina's floodwaters. The teardowns apparently are being contemplated by Mayor Ray Nagin's administration.

www.nola.com/news/t-p/neworleans/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1136532813233490.xml

[reichstag911]

117. Well,...

...nobody here bulldozed anything. Also, I assume they're being bulldozed because they're unliveable. In any case, my original argument still stands; just because their homes were destroyed, does it make sense to rebuild in the same place, to rebuild New Orleans?

[uppityperson]

2. depends on what all is meant by this broad statement

rebuild how, with what, where, etc.

Edited to add, of course it should be rebuilt, recovered, but the question stated here is too broad.

[debbierlus]

8. That is why the other is there

Completely for it

Completely against it

Or shades in between (so many variations, I felt a explanation was best).

[iconoclastNYC]

3. It would not have flooded has the levies been built to

Withstand the predicted storm surge from a Category 5 hurricane.

Flooding is what created the catostrophic damage.

If you are goign to abandon NOLA becasue of hurrican wind damage you have to abandon the entire gulf coast and Flordia and the Carolinas.

[Tesha]

109. Maybe not last year. Maybe not next year. But eventually...

> It would not have flooded has the levies been built to
> Withstand the predicted storm surge from a Category 5
> hurricane.

Maybe not last year. Maybe not next year. But eventually,
in not too many decaades, NOLA is history.

Tesha

[MuseRider]

4. Not only yes but

HELL YES! We should rebuild it the way the New Orleans people want it built and I mean every single one of them should have input, not just the wealthy elite.

As we build it we need to redesign those levies and make it as safe as we can humanly make it.

One of the greatest cities in our country IMO.

[Jack_DeLeon]

52. Shouldnt the property owners decide...

What gets built or rebuilt on thier own property?

Why should everyone have thier input and by that same token why should the government decide what gets built where by who with with taxpayer money?

[The2ndWheel]

5. Never should've been there in the first place

But when building an expanding empire, who has time to worry? We need ports!

[WildEyedLiberal]

77. Damn those French and their New World empire!

What an asinine comment. As if Bush and the neocons built NOLA to serve as the base of operations for the US imperial fleet. :eyes:

[The2ndWheel]

90. I agree about the French

Not so much about Bush, and not sure where you came up with that. I didn't mention him.

The asinine comment, you could be right.

[Blue_Roses]

110. first of all, you obviously don't live in NO and

secondly, it sounds like you've never visited it either. New Orleans is MUCH more than a city. It's robust in culture, arts, history and LIFE! YES, LIFE! Have you ever been to a Mardis Gras? Jazz Festival? Sat and watched the boats on Lake Ponchartrain? Had a hurricane from Pat O'Brien's or a bloody mary from the Court of Two Sisters while walking through the French Quarter? Have you been to the Aquarium on the river walk? Shopped through the voodoo shops? Taken a ferry ride across the Mississippi River? Eaten crawfish etoufee' or gumbo? These things are just a small fraction of things that make up this great city--not to mention the fabulous people and FOOD!. To even think that this city is lost is crazy. This part of the south has been through much more than this and it will recover.

I am amazed that this question is even asked.:eyes:

[KamaAina]

6. Not just yes but HELL YES.

Indeed, it's already happening, whether the nervous Nellies like it or not. One New Orleans DUer, for instance, is active in her neighborhood association, which brought in a team from Harvard (I guess Yale was booked :-) ) to help them craft their rebuilding plan.

I find it fascinating that the poll uses the analogy of a volcano: I happen to live on an extinct volcano, and have friends who live on the active ones on Hawai'i (the Big Island). One in particular, who lives right in Volcano village and refers to crowded O'ahu as the "Island of Hell", would take umbrage at having her island written off the way Bush**co seems to have written off New Orleans.

[Radio_Guy]

7. Lots of oil companies rely on New Orleans

And we all know how much extra profit they make. I say tax their profit at 50% and use it to pay for the rebuilding of New Orleans.

[Broken_Hero]

9. Yes, and as

some of the other posters said, "Hell Yes." Every part of this country can be hit by mother nature, and to say it didn't need to be there in the first place, is sorta irrational...Diasters happen, earth quakes ravage the west coast, tornado's ravage the whole midwest and more, and hurricanes effect the southern/eastern coast...and blizzards, and what not effect all northern states...what happened in NOLA was an abosulte tragedy, and my wife and I shed tears, and helped in all the ways we could (donated clothes, money, and my wife pushed Walmart into helping the Houma Nation)....NOLA effected me the same, if not more than the 9/11 tragedy...and it still upsets me that NOLA seems to be taking a back burner, its one of our major cities that got shafted...if Bush responded to New York city, the way he did to NOLA, he would have been hung up by his toenails in a New York minute....

sorry, just ranting....:(

[The2ndWheel]

25. Irrational?

You're right. Rebuilding the city below sea level next to the ocean is the way to go.

Lets continue to tempt nature. Our species has to expand, and we have to put more and more people in dangerous places to live. Civilization is irrational, you hit the nail on the head.

[Broken_Hero]

46. Okay...:)

Yeah, lets build San Fransico next to a fault line, yeah, lets build houses in Oklahoma, kansas, nebraska, missouri, tennesee, and the rest of the midwest....were are you going to build a perfect city???? Where? What part of our nation, is not in danger of mother nature??? Every single city/town can experience mother nature, or danger, so where is this perfect town in which you live, away from all the disasters that plague the rest of America?....:)

[The2ndWheel]

60. It's one thing to build a city

But isn't there some kind of risk/reward thing going on? You can build a city below sea level right next to the ocean, but it's going to cost plenty of money. And to keep it a viable city, it's going to cost more and more money. Building a city on a fault line, not the smartest thing either. Isn't it one of the most expensive cities in which to live? That's what New Orleans must become if we're going to rebuild it. At least with a tornado, it's a relatively confined space.

It doesn't make a difference what I think though. It's going to be rebuilt, either as a wealthy city, or a city that we put the poor people back into, and wait for the next time a hurricane comes along.

[Broken_Hero]

63. I agree with your

second paragraph, and with the premise of your first paragraph as well. Its going to cost a lot of $ to keep it a viable city...nice talking with you though, :) *cheers*...:)

[pitohui]

65. your ignorance of geography is appalling

the person who on april 20 year of our lord 2006 STILL thinks new orleans is on the ocean doesn't have any business offering an opinion because opinions based on lies, excuse me, misstatements of fact, have no place in an honest discussion

new orleans is NOT on the ocean, get a map! and get a clue!

the port on the ocean that was wiped off the map was gulfport, mississippi -- 70 miles from new orleans and in another state!

when are you going to have a poll abt whether or not we should rebuilt gulfport, mississippi?

oh that's right, i forget, it's a red state, so it is not an issue abt whether or not it will be rebuilt

only new orleans is in question because a lot of black people live there and heaven forfend that any black family get their hands on any money

if it was abt sea levels, this poll would be about biloxi or gulfport, not abt a city as far back from the ocean as new orleans

i have to drive over an hour to get to the ocean from new orleans, you are welcome to come down here and try it for yourself if you cannot read a map

[Bridget Burke]

82. To add to your geography lesson....

NOLA is not anywhere near an "ocean." There's this big watery thing called the "Gulf of Mexico."

You know that. I know that. But lots of people don't.

[The2ndWheel]

86. I said black people shouldn't get money?

Didn't know I typed that.

And you're right, it's not "next" to an ocean, or a gulf as was also pointed out. But it's close enough to where waves brought on by a strong hurricane can cause the lake to flow into the city.

Where I said ANYTHING about red states, or blue states, or wanting to see black families poor, I don't know, but I apologize if I did.

I don't live there, so my opinion means nothing, regardless of my knowledge of geography. I'd rather not see something like this happen again, and if the hurricanes keep getting stronger, and the hurricane season continues to last longer, it's only a matter of time. Nor am I saying you want it to happen again. It's just my worthless opinion, and since you live there, I wouldn't stand in your way of rebuilding it, even if I could, which I can't.

[HeeBGBz]

10. Of course New Orleans should be rebuilt

Who wants to live in a world with no New Orleans?

[MuseRider]

14. Great answer!

Not me. I love that city. Our DU friends who live there have been through so much. I hate to think of them having to see this thread.

OP, was not commenting about your thread but the fact that some don't want it to be rebuilt.

[Blue_Roses]

105. thank-you and well said!

:applause:

[devilgrrl]

11. Why not? We're "rebuilding" Iraq

:sarcasm:

[RagingInMiami]

13. Rather than spend $5 billion a month fighting a war in Iraq

Let's use a portion of that money to rebuild a great city.

[froshty1960]

15. Absolutely... YES

It's funny that no one has this attitude about rebuilding along the San Andreas fault, or about the levees that are failing in Northern California, or the midwestern states that are ravaged every year by tornadoes. Why is it only about New Orleans?

[Beelzebud]

17. Umm Yes... The ones that don't want to should also speak out against:

the entire west coast region for earthquakes

the entire desert region for dependence on out-of-state water

the entire midwest for tornadoes

and the entire east coast because of hurricanes...

[The2ndWheel]

30. I would

but just like my opinion on New Orleans, it doesn't make a difference. Our species expands, and we need the space.

[XemaSab]

18. It would be a great cultural loss if the city were not rebuilt

However I'm not sure we have the will or the resources to do it RIGHT. From what I've seen on DU, almost no reconstruction has taken place and at this pace it will be YEARS before the garbage is removed so people CAN rebuild their homes.

In order to do it RIGHT we need to build the levees in such a way that they won't fail or overtop in the next hurricane and create an equally catastrophic disaster to Katrina. We also need hurricane evacuation centers and a whole infrastructure geared towards evacuation preparedness.

From what I'm seeing, it would be close to a WPA-level undertaking costing billions of dollars, and the political motivation seems to be lacking.

This is the worst American disaster of my lifetime, and I'd hate to see it repeated in 10 or 20 years.

Maybe it's for the best if the rebuilding occurs on a smaller scale than the size of the original city, and the evacuees try to create lives in their new towns.

:(

[debbierlus]

19. Good point.

The ideal versus the reality.

[Bridget Burke]

26. If the political motivation seems to be lacking....

Perhaps some politicians need to be motivated. Out of office, if necessary.

Should we just meekly accept anything that might annoy any of our wonderful politicians? Sure--let's keep wasting billions in Iraq & whatever other wars might come up. Let the environment, education, healthcare & the infrastructure go to Hell.

[MADem]

20. GOP contractors should not be allowed anywhere near any

rebuilding efforts. Right now, they are trying to force people in some neighborhoods to either jack up their houses three feet, which would be cost prohibitive, or rebuild three feet higher, which would also be cost prohibitive.

I don't know the answer to this question. All I know is, if BushCo cronies have any part in the profit taking, it's bad...

[Bridget Burke]

28. Raising the grade should remain an option....

Galveston did it after the Great Storm of 1900--up to 11 feet in some cases. Galveston also built a Seawall; NOLA needs levees repaired & wetlands restored.

I agree that GOP contractors should be banned. The money does exist--it's just being spent on endless war.

[warrens]

21. It's a national treasure

Voting no, to me, means evacuating most of California, the Florida coasts, and a lot of other places subject to rather nasty natural catastrophes.

[jus_the_facts]

23. YES...but where's the $$$$ gonna come from.....

....don't see it happening in my lifetime. :(

[Bridget Burke]

29. Will you see the end of the war in Iraq in your lifetime?

Or will you just sit meekly while Bush & his cronies decide where they want to spend your tax money?

[jus_the_facts]

33. Doesn't seem like any of us have had much of a say in these matters....

...before or since....or haven't you been payin' attention?!

[Jack_DeLeon]

53. Private individuals and business...

that is the way it should be done.

[Bluerthanblue]

27. to those who say no, i ask you to consider this-

we've been waiting almost 6 years to get Bush and his kind out of the WH- and out of the bastion of control they've had for even longer than these last 6 years-
If you compare the probablility that NOLA is likely to face continued challenges, and say "F___k it" Then how is looking at the likilihoood of our regaining control of a screwed up government keep you from eating a bullet tonite?
Yet we go on, waking up to face another day, knowing that we're probably going to continue to be screwed and swindled no matter HOW HARD WE FIGHT or what we do- no matter all the political action, personal sacrifice, sweat, energy and fervor and effort we give towards trying to 'make a difference'?

Why stay in the US and 'fight' an enemy that seems unconquerable? Why not just 'give in' and 'face the reality'???

Why do people keep building in California? after mudslides and raging fires? Why keep trying to concieve after 12 miscarriages? why not just quit anything that SEEMS overwhelming-

Because if we do, then we really HAVE lost-

worse, we've forfited- we're the loser- and the world is the lesser for our lack of ....that friggin four letter H word-

HOPE

it's even more essential than milk- :-)

Hold fast to hope (dreams), for if Hope (dreams) dies, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly- and has no song left to sing- (apologies to Emily Dickenson and Langston Hughes)

[The2ndWheel]

34. Civilization does try and beat reality

On many levels.

[Bluerthanblue]

37. and yet, we all lose

in the end- but what is the alternitive?

If we are willing to write off NOLA, yet we're willing to spend uncountable funds, AND LIVES on Iraq- what the hell kind of people are we anyway?

Where is human "KIND"?- stop the planet its time for us homosapiens to get off!

[The2ndWheel]

91. Where did I say

anything about being willing to spend uncountable funds and lives on Iraq?

It would be nice if there was an alternative. But we didn't get to our current reality by letting other ways of living exist, so we're stuck with "hope".

[Bluerthanblue]

98. didn't mean

to say anything contrary to your observation- What I meant is that when 'sense' and 'logic' and 'the most efficient' or 'the ideal solution IN PRINCIPAL'- is not usually what happens in fact- and many times that is a good thing- (like continuing to fight against a far more powerful and corrupt agent- even though the 'odds' are so miniscule- suicide would be a far more 'logical' choice- But that doesn't leave any room for HOPE to do the impossible- which on rare occasions DOES happen.

I wasn't arguing against your point- I was agreeing with it- and trying to be sardonic about the windmills the masses seem willing to chase after, while their own homes are falling down around them....

For those who would 'relocate' NOLA further inland, where are we going to get this 'imaginary' 'inland' area, that can become the New New Orleans???
And how far above sea level will we have to go? If we're going to have the oceans rising at amazing levels, then we're going to have to be relocating far more than NOLA- 'logicly'- I come from NH where we had VERY unusual and unexpected flooding this year, washing away roads and homes that had been around for hundreds of years, and killing 6 people- not a very great comparison, but to those who had homes near what was a quiet stream, who now own land that is in the middle of a river.... well, it's kind of hard for them to 'rebuild'.... and the land that is now 'shore' belongs to other people..... it's not a simple problem, even on this 'tiny' scale-

Sorry to have been so confusing-

[bloom]

104. The alternative

To try to work WITH nature - and not against it.

[Broken_Hero]

47. Great post, :) "Hope"....n/t

[hlthe2b]

31. I'm heart-sick that some even feel the need to ask?

Not picking on the OP, but really.... do we have DUers who just want to sacrifice such an important piece of American history? throw those who have lived for generations in NOLA to the sharks? This saddens me--tremendously.

[pitohui]

66. are they really DUers i wonder?

is it really believable that a person in the progressive community would not know that new orleans is NOT on the ocean

upthread i stumbled on more than one post claiming new orleans is on the ocean, new orleans is in fact on the river and lake ponchartrain, the port wiped out by the hurricane that is on the ocean was gulfport, mississippi

they don't have a clue what they are talking abt but they are happy to talk abt it anyway

i have heard these same arguments made by neo-fascists

got nothing to do w. sea levels and everything to do w. god forbid a black person gets an insurance check or government loan, it's difficult to convince me otherwise, no person of goodwill towards new orleans somehow doesn't even know where it is located!

[genie_weenie]

32. I don't understand people's responses

I'd like to know how much people think it's going to cost and how long it's going to take.

Everyone on these NO threads is emoting "We absolutely must rebuild" without taking a hard look at the facts.

I don't know what the final cost of rebuilding that entire area is going to be but, I think it's going to be quite a bit higher than people want to admit.

[Lars39]

39. You don't understand their responses because liberals tend to put

people above money. It's called caring about your fellow human being.

[genie_weenie]

45. Wow, thanks and here

I thought maybe sending people to live down there again waiting for another disaster and knowing the Feds will not help was wrong?

Where is the money going to come from? Oh, that's right we can just have the Federal government print out the 100 billion it's going to cost to fix NO. That will solve the problem.

Thanks for the insults and insights! I guess my concerns are completely baseless.

Now, where did I put my "I don't care about people Suit"? I'll need that to attend my meeting of W.H.E.A.T (We Hate Everyone Americans Too).

:mad: BTW, it seems posts #44 does not agree with you and #42 has different issues. Make sure to label them People hating Fascists, okay?

[Lars39]

49. Sometimes doing the right thing does cost an enormous amount

Getting the port and city operating again will cost money, but it will also bring in money.
Employed people tend to put money back into the economy.
Rebuilding with new safeguards in place should be part of the plan.

[genie_weenie]

50. Look

We need to spend money to make sure people have homes and places to buy essentials and it's not about the money. It's about using reason instead of emotion. I am not entirely certain that a plan to rebuild a raised city were current NO is located with stronger levees is entirely the best plan.

If you tell me you think that is best the best plan I will accept it.

Several other DUers have just been content to attck me as a lover of the * regime or a hater of people and I am simply flabbergasted.

It's not about money, it's about people making the right choices and not expecting a State/Government which doesn't care about them to help.

[GumboYaYa]

42. You don't understand because you aren't fully informed about

New Orleans importance to the US economy. You can not maneuver ocean bearing vessels North in the river above New Orleans. If it was possible, the major ports would have moved to Baton Rouge years ago. You can't do that. American industry depends on New Orleans to be able to get most of its agricultural products (our largest export) to the world. It is also the entry point for many of the goods used in industry and purchased by consumers. To get midwestern agricultural products to the world any other route would price them out of the marketplace, eliminating a major export in our already unbalanced trade relations. For this reason, New Orleans will be rebuilt. The original premise of the thread is not even fathomable.

So the real question is, how is it rebuilt. Do you endorse sending people back to live and work in the area, as will definitely happpen, without providing them security from floods? To do so is mass murder and is wholey unacceptable to me.

Also, should the beneficiaries of the resconstruction that will happen, be large corporations looking to turn it to a playground for the rich, or should we try to rebuild it in a way that gives some dignity to the people who suffered so badly from our original neglect of the levees?

Those are the real questions. Arguing over whether it will be rebuilt is just nonsense.

[lastliberalintexas]

44. Depending on whether scientists' predictions are correct,

Baton Rouge may well become that Port of the future after the present day land mass on which NO is located becomes wholly submerged. I think it's also criminal to send the people of NO back to an area that might have to be abandoned relatively soon anyway.

But at the same time, I'd like to see our country help the people of NO rebuild at a better location. The Port can be left where it is for now, though like I said, Mother Nature may take care of it anyway. I do not want the people thrown to the wolves and left to fend for themselves, but I would like to see some long term thinking here (esp by people with no profit motive in mind).

[GumboYaYa]

48. All that is true, but for now the port can not operate out of BR

so it will be in New Orleans. That is just reality. Maybe 10, 20, 30 years in the future New Orleans may not be there, but there is lots of money to be harvested from it in the interim and that will happen.

I posit that New Orleans would not disappear if we invested in saving our wetlands. That has been a pet peeve issue for me for more than 20 years. Long-term planning to me means restoring our wetlands and addressing global warming by reducing our uses of fossil fuels. I can agree with that type of planning.

[XemaSab]

62. "Saving the wetlands" isn't that simple

The Mississippi has been dammed and locked for years. Under natural conditions, the Mississippi river carries sediment from the entirety of the central US, but a lot of the sediment that historically went out to the Delta isn't getting there any more.

Removal of the dams and locks would restore the health of the delta, but it would also create massive flood hazards and destroy shipping on the river.

The whole Delta is literally collapsing (as it has been for eons), but there is no new sediment to keep the land surface above the level of the Gulf.

It's a tricky system covering HUGE amounts of land, and it's not as easy as pounding a few willow stakes.

[debbierlus]

57. So, if New Orleans was moved or not rebuilt, we couldn't ship

Out agriculture...

I would have to investigate your claims much more closely, as I don't know much about this issue.

[Coexist]

38. where is the "abso-fucking-lutely" option?

[LSK]

40. no, we should build more nukes with that money

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Maddy McCall]

41. Those who said no: If you live in Tornado Alley, California, or on the FL

peninsula...don't ask us for our help in rebuilding your city when the big one hits.

[lastliberalintexas]

43. Other- rebuild but relocated?

I really don't know what he answer to this is. And before you people jump my ass for saying that, let me say that my area also went through a nasty Cat 3 hurricane last year, with substantial damage and people still out of their homes 7 and 1/2 months later. We also have a fair number of Katrina evacuees who have been unable to return home, and some transplants who've decided to stay. There isn't an easy answer to these issues, and the people responding with knee jerk hell yeahs probably don't know what the GUlf Coast has looked like for the past 8 months.

The entire Gulf Coast of the US is going to be facing some tough realities in the next decade due to the changing climate patterns. Have you people SEEEN the temps in the Gulf? Somebody's getting hammered this hurricane season (which starts in just 6 weeks, so you know)- we just don't know who yet. Depending on the actual increase in ocean water temps, Mother Nature might just make the decision for us and take the present day location of New Orleans underwater completely, a la the ancient city of Alexandria. Knowing that that is a good possibility, is it responsible to put the people of New Orleans in harm's way? Shouldn't we as a nation help them rebuild just a little further north, a little above sea level, so that they don't have to go through this hell again?

There is a difference between saying that the people of New Orleans should be helped to rebuild at a better location and simply saying that they should be left to fend for themselves. I am certainly not saying the latter. But I think we owe it to them (and even to us) to think about the long term ramifications of the rebuild issues.


And yes, this thinking also applies to communities close to my home. Some of the SE Texas and SW Louisiana communities impacted by Rita will probably also be underwater relatively soon. The same long term planning is owed to the people of Holly Beach and Sabine Pass as well.

[pitohui]

70. the situation in cameron is different

i agree that the proposal to relocate cameron, holly beach, and some of the other small towns in cameron parish is a wise one and i hope they are able to fairly compensate and re-locate people, however, the proposal is to move the towns 15 miles to the north

you do realize that new orleans is ALREADY more than 15 miles away from the ocean -- it is ALREADY at a better location than the proposed new locations for cameron, creole, etc. compared to those town's current location

new orleans has to be where it is because it's a transportation hub and a hub for the oil industry, we are ALREADY over an hour's drive from port fouchon, etc. at some point you do have to have the city at some reasonable distance from the refineries, drilling, etc. or workers spend all their time commuting rather than working

new orleans is NOT on a particularly exposed location nor is it a particularly large city presenting a huge target, never forget that katrina was only a cat 3 at new orleans, if the levees had been properly built to spec, most of the flood damage would not have happened, a hurricane hitting at cat 5 force is highly unlikely at new orleans because it has so far to travel over land, at some point, you could not have any coastal city, washington dc, manhattan, boston, miami, not any city, if you think new orleans is located too close to the ocean

[Jack_DeLeon]

51. I think the government should only rebuild the levies...

The government should only rebuild the levies and other vital infrastructure.

As for rebuilding homes and business the government should not get involved in that, it should be up to private individuals and business to rebuild.

There are certain things that I think the free market should decide and not the government and IMO this is one of those cases.

[SPKrazy]

54. NOLA Will Be Hit Again And Again By Hurricanes, and

It will not be long before the oceans rise enough due to global warming and melting polar ice to flood the below sea level city.

I'm sorry, I like NOLA, but it is a waste of money to rebuild it. Taxpayer money that could be spent better building a place for NOLA residents to live farther inland.

[pitohui]

71. you don't like nola enough to know where it is on a map

new orleans is already inland, it is an hour or so to get to the ocean from here, we are not a large or particularly exposed or vulnerable city, people exaggerate to make it not look so awful that we were short-sheeted on the levees

new orleans won't be hit by hurricanes again and again, it simply isn't a big enough target nor is it sufficiently exposed to the ocean

even biloxi/gulfport, which are right on the ocean, or cameron parish, as another person just addressed, which is again right on the beach, don't get hit again and again, they get hit about once every 40 years

[SPKrazy]

119. Hey, I Understand Plenty Pithoui

I know where NOLA Is

In the middle of the fucking swamp!

they drained it so they could build the city

I'm adding you to my ignore list thank you very much

[gulfcoastliberal]

55. It should be rebuilt - somewhere else - somewhere above sea level.

And they need to build the 3rd Delta Convyance to restore the wetlands.

[debbierlus]

56. That is an interesting idea!

[pitohui]

72. much of it is above sea level so it is not too interesting of an idea

indeed those of us who live in areas that are well above sea level like western st. tammany parish or the river ridge in jefferson are not real thrilled abt the huge, huge, huge increase in population and traffic, if you want the entire city relocated over here, give us some damn money to widen the roads and bridges

besides the gentilly ridge and metairie ridge are both above sea level, it took real talent on the part of our army corps of engineer to destroy those neighborhoods!

why shouldn't those people be getting every bit of cash they need to rebuild since they are not in that part of orleans that is below sea level?

[lynne]

58. NO and YES -

NO to dwellings, apartments, condo's or any such quarters designed to house people.

YES to ports, industry, commercial enterprises and the historic area where people are employed but do not reside.

NO to FEMA flood insurance. If you have the money to build or run a commercial enterprise in NO you need to have enough money to self-insure for flood damage.

NO will flood again. It would be simply foolish to rebuild residences and place people in harms way.

[pitohui]

75. what universe are you living in?

you do know that illegal immigrants living in tents and robots operated from a distance by NASA robots have not yet taken all the jobs?

how far would you like MY husband to commute every day to earn a living?

there is really something wrong w. people who want the conveniences and riches that we provide but who want us, the workers, to have nothing good in our own lives except drudgery and misery

how much nerve does it take to suggest that we are not entitled to have homes to live in?

i will pray for you to lose everything so that your heart will open to compassion, and yes i am serious, those who have no care for workers get no care from me, they need to have change brought into their lives so that their hearts will change

workers are people too, we deserve to have housing where we don't have to spend our entire lives driving and working and never seeing our families or having a moment of leisure just to ourselves

your post is shameful, 70 percent of this nation's residents live in potential flood zones, indeed, this nation would be impoverished if they did not, for the waterways are the lifeblood of the nation

[Strelnikov_]

83. "I Will Pray For You To Lose Everything . . "

Pathetic.

[JVS]

95. And oh so compassionate

[Bluerthanblue]

100. While the choice of words and the passion

with which Pithoui speaks may seem to some a bit extreem- nothing teaches empathy, compassion, tolerance and generosity better than personal experience.

And I for one, have learned that unless we live as if we 'were' 'them' we will never live in a world that has a hope of being peaceful- contented, and healthy-

so call me a dreamer-
the other options suck.

Money is not human- things are not something we should cherish at the expense of lives- even the lives of people we've never met.

We are all part of each other, when one is hurting, it hurts us all-
Someday we'll learn that- hope fully before it is too late.

blu

[JVS]

101. People act as though building the city elsewhere is equivalent to murder

From your own post "things are not something we should cherish at the expense of lives"

I agree. Which is why I think we definitely should rebuild places for these people to live. However part of cherishing lives more than things is to realize that the physical entity known as NO, the houses, streets, buildings are merely things. And to slavishly re-create these things at the cost of putting the people back into houses that are at very high risk of having the same disaster befall them, the same catastrophe that we saw last September, is valuing their lives below those things.

Suggesting that considering new locations for rebuiding rather than the same place is somehow destroying lives is the biggest bunch of bullshit I've ever seen.

[Bluerthanblue]

103. where would you suggest 'they' move to?

and what of the people who live 'there'??

Look into some of the things * did to make the situation far more dire in NOLA things beyond his big oil mentality- things like not keeping up with the outerbanks protection.... my son knows a lot more about this than I do, but * cut funds and stopped programs that helped keep NOLA far safer- programs that poppy bush endorsed, but sonny-boy blew off as unnessacary.

Look at what 'relocating' the Native Americans have done- Not to mention the Palestinians who were cast off their land when Israel was created..... it sounds like a 'good' option, but in reality is often isn't.

And not to be sarcastic, but you must not have seen much bullshit in your life- I've seen plenty- and shoveled through a lot of it too- as i'm sure you will as time goes on.

[JVS]

106. I suggest people locate to the closest and highest ground possible

Also to compare citizenship with a city to what it means to be Palestinian or Native American is really demeaning to the Palestinians and Native Americans, who suffered more than a hurricane, but rather a systematic destruction of their society.

[Bluerthanblue]

115. New Orleans being abandoned would be nothing

less than a systematic destruction of a society-

And no less demeaning to those who lived, loved, and died there for generation upon generations.

A 'culture' doesn't have to have legal boundries- America is a diverse collection of many unique cultures- It is not at ALL demeaning to compare the notion of abandoning NOLA- and a land grab to 'relocate' folks, and what happened to the Palestinians and the Native Americans-

Do you have some close and high ground in mind? Where exactly? I'm seriously asking, because those who say 'relocate'- aren't offering up any realistic options.

[Bridget Burke]

84. The farther that people live from the Gulf Coast....

The more they think they know about the region. I don't know much about constructing seismically sound buildings or storm shelters--but I don't pretend that I do.

Odd. (from Houston)

[high density]

59. I think the insurance companies should rebuild New Orleans (NM)

[SeaBob]

61. N.O.

To rebuild N.O. properly so that it would not flood and restore the protective wetlands would take about a trillion dollars, The whole of the City except the french quarter would have to be raisen about 30 or 40 feet. This would involve massive earth movement. and toitally rebuilding houses, piers, warehouses, as other types of commercial and government buildings. From an engineering perspective it is doable, I suspect that from an economic perspective it might be prohitive.
Just my .02 cents worth.

[pitohui]

73. 99 percent of all internet statistics are made up on the spot

it would not take anything like a trillion dollars, we've already had the dutch government and a team of dutch and german engineers look at the project and they say that it won't cost, it will pay

the engineering crew for some of the modern levees around amsterdam came from new orleans, the dutch minister who visited pointed out that the supposedly huge cost of replacing the levees with proper levees after the 1953 storm has turned out to provide a huge profit because of the value of the land and industry created in amsterdam

giving an industrial city back to the sea (actually, we're not on the sea but i tire of pointing out what should be obvious to those who can't read a map) is a huge waste of money, you can't make $$$ from a dead zone in the ocean

by the way, just so you will not look so ignorant next time, the uptown area did not flood even though it has some low-lying areas because the old-style mississippi river levees stayed strong in that area so apparently even decades ago we had the technology to protect this city

it's good enough for uptown and it's good enough for amsterdam

and it sure as heck don't cost any trillion dollars, was there even a trillion dollars in the world when the netherlands had to rebuild in the 50s?

[Bridget Burke]

85. No, NOLA does not need to be raised 30 or 40 feet.

I've heard estimates that the lower areas might need to be raised about 3 feet. After the 1900 storm, the City of Galveston was raised--up to 11 feet.


www.1900storm.com/rebuilding/index.lasso

Where did you find your cost estimates?

[RB TexLa]

64. the people or companies that own property in Orleans Parish

will decide what they want to rebuild

[Vidar]

69. Fire FEMA & put Dutch engineers in charge.

[Vampgrrl]

74. Oh, New Orleans is comin' back

God help me, I'm posting at DemocraticUnderground.


I really have to reply here, I'm not from New Orleans but I hope to make it my home this year.

New Orleans flooded like it did because the levee system was not properly maintained, partially due to the Army Corps of Engineers and partially due to local levee boards. The levees failed their design, they should have held with only overtopping in the lowest areas like the Lower 9th.
This didn't have to happen.


New Orleans is being rebuilt now, I was just there 2 months ago. It is still a fantastic city, full of fantastic people, a great culture and wonderful history. (If you fail New Orleans, then you doom New York City, Miami, Charlestown and most any other East Coast city).
I believe in New Orleans and I personally will do whatever it takes for that city, if it means getting on my hands and knees to clean debris even.

We are headed for a renaissance for New Orleans, a city full of opportunity, great education, super communities.
Come and join in the fun! =)

[Vidar]

79. Good to uear.

[area51]

111. Welcome to DU, Vampgrrl. (n/t)

[OneBlueSky]

76. we should not only rebuild the city, but also . . .

bring the levees up to the standards of other nations . . .

Their Levees - Our Levees
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0112-15.htm

Here's how the British hold back the waters from flooding London:


And the Dutch solution to protecting an entire nation that mostly rests below sea level:


The Italians are defending their city on the sea, Venice:


And...
Here's how the richest, most powerful and technologically advanced
nation on earth protected against the long-forecasted flooding of New Orleans:

[Neil Lisst]

78. Building below sea level AT sea level is NUTS. NO, don't do it.

At least don't rebuild anything below sea level. Fill it in, fill it up, and get everything above sea level in the city. Anything below sea level gets condemned, filled, and utilized anew once attaining above sea level height.

[Ganja Ninja]

80. At first I thought we should definitely rebuild but I'm not so sure now.

This type of problem is only going to get worse in the future as the predicted consequences of global warming become reality. In fifty years we could not only lose New Orleans but large portions of the gulf coast and any place else that isn't well above current sea level
It may be time to take a long hard look at all construction projects that aren't more than 30 or even 50 feet above current sea level. I'm not saying we shouldn't help people rebuild. I'm saying we may need to help them relocate to higher ground along with rebuilding.
The ice caps are melting and we have to admit it at some point as painful as that may be.

[Bridget Burke]

89. Then you need to tell the people of NYC they need to move!

I'd love to hear the answers you would get.

[The2ndWheel]

92. See, that would make sense

But since that won't happen, and since New Orleans will be rebuilt one way or another no matter how anyone feels, it doesn't really make much difference.

[Ganja Ninja]

93. When the Atlantic ocean is flowing through the streets of NYC ...

they won't have much choice in the matter. Neither will a lot of other people living in low lying coastal areas. If sea levels rise by the predicted levels we'll lose not only NYC but the southern tip of Florida and large portions of Louisiana and God knows how many other coastal cities and towns.
Do you think the predictions are right? Personally I think they are conservative. I think we're going to see sea levels rise faster than anyone is predicting. The melt down isn't going on at a steady pace, it's accelerating. New Orleans is only the beginning. The hand writing is on the wall and it's not pretty. Like it or not it's happening as we speak.

[debbierlus]

94. So, do you think we should move these cities gradually?

In anticipation of these events?

[Ganja Ninja]

97. I think we should put a moratorium on any new infrastructure ...

for areas that will probably be under water in less than 50 years. As far as new construction in these areas we may have institute a ban on building or set permit costs so high that it becomes prohibitive.
I don't think we should try to force people out until the areas become unlivable.

[Baclava]

113. NYC would be worthless after it's coming hurricane destruction

It would take years just to get the millions of corpses out of the flooded subways.
Oh well - they should have known better than to live there.
Stupid rustbelt hicks.

[AngryAmish]

87. Bush sys he wants to rebuild her

[lonestarnot]

88. I think we better just recover all the bodies first.

[Lochloosa]

96. If you have never had to drag your wife up Bourbon Street at

4 am with her holding on to your belt loop to keep from falling down. Or road on one of the Paddle Boats. Or went on a Bayou boat ride. Or been to the flea market. Or visited the Garden District. Or enjoyed the Jazz Fest. Or had a roast beef poboy. Or sucked some heads. Or.......

oh nevermind. Just vote no.

[Blue_Tires]

99. uh, yeah

[in_cog_ni_to]

102. ABSOLUTELY! I cannnot believe there's 51 people here who voted no!

Unfreakin' real. What if it was YOUR city? Sheesh.

[Blue_Roses]

112. Not even a valid question--HELL YES!

[Blue_In_AK]

118. Sadly sometimes towns/cities just need to be moved...

Our own little Native village of Shishmaref would have loved to stay in its traditional site, but after years of eroding coastline, they're either going to have to relocate the village to the mainland or all move to Nome.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3940399.stm

I'm not saying that New Orleans shouldn't be rebuilt, but it may be a futile cause.