Paper Industry Reeling - Our manufacturing base is disappearing

[debbierlus]

This article today made me so sad.

Look at the picture of the guys attending a job searching seminar....

http://www.berkshireeagle.com/business/ci_3733873

I realize this is happening by the tens upon tens of thousands in all sectors. But, this one really hits home.

My dad was a papermill shift supervisor for 40 years. He collasped on the mill floor due to heart problems (he is okay, now). He gave his health working swing shift on this job.

I worked as an occupational health nurse for five years at a local paper company (one of the sister companies to where I worked is mentioned as closing in this article). I have a fierce loyalty to my blue collar friends that I grew to know and love in this job, and rumor has it that the mill I used to work at is in danger of closing as well.

It really breaks my heart.

[Robert Oak]

1. hits home

The problem is we're in a "me first, fuck you" society and I find it horrific that Democrats are not uniformly
banding together to stop this insanity and be "for" workers.

There are literally corporate lobbyists running on the Democratic Ticket.

[debbierlus]

4. I think you will see that happening. People are in a state of shock.

They have been sold up the river by the corporations who view them as a disposable resource, only employing the absolute minimum required for their opertions and breaking the remaining worker's backs by assigning them the jobs of two or more people.

And, these are the 'lucky' ones that manage to retain their jobs.

Until, we as Americans will no longer tolerate (and sometimes covet and admire!), greed and obscene wealth, the system will victimize workers. You are so right. We need to take our government back from the corporations, and let the people make the laws.

Our system is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO sick and broken right now.

[Skidmore]

6. Absolutely, between the free traders and those who think we can

just have the whole world move in and take care of everyone with a disappearing infrastructure and disappearing jobs, we are sincerely in enormous trouble as a nation.

[Robert Oak]

9. I'm finding it incredible

I don't know what people are thinking...

liberal bloggers talking about illegal labor being the "new civil rights movement" and on and on.

Come on, illegals are people who entered a country through illegal means, are not authorized to be here, not authorized to
work in the country, end of story.

Now they are protesting because DHS just did a token bust of an employer who uses illegal labor.

Hello? The reason the employer encourages illegal labor is to get around US employment law...which enables the American
workforce, enables the American middle class, plus stops employers from being able to hire below minimum wage.

They really don't get that every nation has an immigration policy and that is a major factor in labor economics.

[catmandu57]

2. We had a Mead paper plant

here that shut down for good a couple of years ago, they made the Big Chief tablets, notebook paper, memo pads, and other things.
The memo books I buy now are made in Mexico and just don't have the same feel. They feel pulpy, and cheap.

[debbierlus]

5. American paper products are amazing

We still have several plants in our area (god knows for how long), and they craft just beautiful paper.

[kurth]

7. Don't let children eat made-in-China or made-in-Mexico paper

The acid content is very different and may not be so harmless.

[flobee1]

8. My cousins husband works for Mead

in an executive position and just found out that he has to move halfway across the country if he wants to keep the same position.
He is also a Bush supporter
not so much anymore........


Mead is really in bad shape-and getting smaller by the day

[debbierlus]

10. It is amazing how people can change their minds

When they feel it, personally!

[Lorien]

38. I've always avoided Mead products; they have a horrible reputation for

environmental abuse (not that the environment will get better treatment in Mexico). I try to stick to paper with a high post consumer content (recycled).

[Virginia Dare]

3. This is the same heartbreak repeated over and over in this country...

generations of folks who have given their lives to a particular plant and a particular industry, worked hard for them, and all they asked for in return was a decent life for themselves, their community and their children.


but hey, according to Bush and the rest of the Repukes, this is all good for our economy.

:puke:

[Beware the Beast Man]

11. It's a harsh lesson to towns/cities that rely on one type of industry

for their economy.

Just look at the past, with places like Pittsburgh and Flint, places where people could go to work at the mill or factory and think they're set for life. Not today. This is why training at more than one skill is crucial, and it begins with the education system. But that is a tangent for another time.

Very sad for these workers, indeed.

[debbierlus]

12. Training for what?

There are only so many service industry jobs that this country can support.

A manufacturing base is VITAL to maintaining any standard of living.

[Beware the Beast Man]

14. I agree, but

once that particular place of business packs up and leaves town after a number of years, then what?
By skilled training, I'm talking anything: computers, construction, repair, etc, not just "book learning" and service work. It falls in the lap of the community when the community think that the manufacturing sector will always be there.


A personal anecdote:
My wife has a friend who teaches high school english in Marysville, OH, which is home to the Honda assembly plant, obviously the largest employer in town. A common mantra among her students is "Why do we have to learn this stuff? I'm only going to get a job at the Honda plant anyway." People are conditioned to believe that that assembly plant is going to be there forever. My wife sugggested to her friend that she make the class watch "Roger & Me" as an example.

[Robert Oak]

15. corporate propaganda

There are a series of public relations "talking points" to diffuse Americans from revolting...

this is the classic "Americans need retraining".

It's absurd. Case in point are engineers, who have Bachelors, Masters and PhDs. Now who is offering a "retraining"
program for these college educated professionals and to be polite a "retraining" program for these level of education
is basically another PhD!

How about someone who is 40 years old with kids. Do you see anyone offering to "retrain" them in say some sort of
skilled labor, such as tool and die? No, because current trade policies wiped out these highly skilled jobs.

[Beware the Beast Man]

16. Wait, you're accusing me of corporate propaganda?

That's rich. :eyes:

And no, I don't see retraining programs for older individuals. Therein lies the problem. They should be available.

[debbierlus]

19. No, the problem lies in the quality and availability of jobs

For those who re-train...

[asthmaticeog]

20. What's more difficult?

To learn more than one skillset, or to make a long-gone factory re-appear?

Look, it's OBVIOUS that we desperately need to rebuild our manufacturing sector, but that's going to take time that unemployed workers with families don't have when they're looking at eviction RIGHT NOW.

[Beware the Beast Man]

21. Exactly. I getting at it from the education angle.

I KNOW that the problem lies in the lack of manufacturing jobs in this country (believe me, as a CAD drafter looking for full-time work, I know it.)

[Robert Oak]

22. then you should know "retraining"

is a blow off subtle put down of the American worker.

Again, you're missing the point...how do you "retrain" a PhD who is a world expert by definition?

It's about $$, "race to the bottom", not skills.

[Beware the Beast Man]

23. It's a fact of life for the modern worker.

Those jobs are gone, they ain't coming back. It sucks, but they're gone, and no one can do a damn thing about it.
I'm not going to get into a semantics battle with you over this.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beware the Beast Man]

27. Yeah, you got me.

:eyes:

And I alerted on you for calling me a troll. That wasn't very nice.

[Robert Oak]

well

You are pushing the corporate propaganda machine message and it's totally not true.

One can change tax policy, trade policy, budget policy, challenge the WTO, pull out of the WTO..
there are so many things out there...

yet you are perpetuating very specific corporate "talking points" which they put out in press releases and flood
the major media with.

It is simply not true.

[RandomKoolzip]

31. ...or one could diversify one's skills.

Which is the point Beastman was trying to make, and a damned logical, sensible one, too.

But DAMN if you didn't pierce through his disguise and get to the truth: Beastman is actually a PR guy from Halliburton, sent to some obscure political message board to spread "corporate propaganda."

Your sleuthing skills are too much for our trolls, sir! :patriot:

[Robert Oak]

34. point is

The skills are already "diverse"...

You're not getting it...the skills are there, it's a corporate propaganda statement which dismisses American workers as "inferior"
and "oh well, we'll take care of it through retraining".

Again, a Masters Degreed person is NOT someone who needs to be "retrained" the point of a US Masters degree means they can do
any number of jobs!

[Lars39]

48. Sombody barely keeping their head above water with 3 kids

and a mortgage doesn't have the money or time to diversify.

[RandomKoolzip]

29. Beast Man a corporate troll?!

:rofl:


Seriously, dude. You need to back off.

Not only is BEastMan a liberal, he's also a realist - an increasingly rare character trait in GD and GD:P.

[Robert Oak]

32. see other post

Well, he is seriously misinformed.

It is NOT true there is "nothing you can do about it".

I mean, it's just absurd and if one thought other nations thought this way, well China would have never even started
their own "economic world domination" campaign period..

During the Great Depression "oh well, nothing we can do about it"...

WWII, "oh well, nothing we can do about it"

Cold War, "oh well, nothing we can do about it"

[RandomKoolzip]

36. Um, he IS suggesting there's something we can do about it.

But you don't want to listen.

[Robert Oak]

39. not he is NOT

he is saying "retrain" there is NO JOB safe from outsourcing...that includes Doctors, lawyers, researchers, even teachers.

If you can't outsource it, you can insource it through the "guest worker" labor arbitrage program.

RETRAINING IS BULLSHIT.

It's stop outsourcing through legislation, dramatically change trade agreements, change the US corporate tax policy.

It's BULLSHIT...you cannot RETRAIN WORLD LEADING EXPERTS!

you CANNOT RETRAIN THE BEST SKILLS IN THE WORLD!

It's LABOR ARBITRAGE, not wrong SKILLS!

[entanglement]

40. Nice job hijacking this thread

n/t

[Robert Oak]

42. nice job insulting the original poster

Somebody posts a horror story of yet another job/career/pension being wiped out..

your response...a subtle put down that somehow the person didn't have the "right skills"

and it's just "oh well" because he didn't have the "right skills".

nice job.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beware the Beast Man]

33. Thanks, KoolZip.

Now go get me that coffee. And make sure your boobs jiggle when you type, or you're fired. :P

[Lars39]

45. It's easy to say "retrain" when it puts you $15,000 in debt each time,

you have zip in savings and you're not eligible for welfare while you retrain,
or your welfare runs out while you are retraining, leaving you in debt and no degree to show for it.

Add in zero health insurance, with pre-existing conditions,
and you start weighing whether you want to use your precious lifetime of 3 years of welfare to retrain,
or to use if your health starts really going bad later on.

There is also ageism to consider.
Older workers are getting left in the dust at just the time when they should
really be saving all they can so they can 'possibly' retire.

[Robert Oak]

49. even better

Multinational corporations are paying for "retraining" in China and India.

See Multinational corporations footing the bill to "retrain" Americans?

Hell no.

[asthmaticeog]

44. PhD's aren't the ones facing the most serious problems.

FACTORY WORKERS are. How fucking out of touch are you, man?

[Robert Oak]

47. Wrong

It is at every level...factory workers to PhDs.

Look at the studies they will show you the statistics.

You have people with Masters degrees, PhDs, on and on working at Wal-mart and the Home Depot and who are in POVERTY.

This is why the "Retraining" statement is BS...it is serious corporate propaganda, a talking point, so multinational
corporations can continue their control of both parties and get their glorified "outsourcing agreements"
under the term trade agreements, their corporate welfare and now even their own lobbyists in congress.

It's a "blow off" response so people will not realize the true policy changes that need to happen to enforce the American
workforce and middle class.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Robert Oak]

56. People with degrees

especially in high tech...part of the field is learning NEW SKILLS...they learn NEW SKILLS daily...all of the time..
guess what, they even invent "NEW SKILLS".


Yet they are fired for cheaper labor.

It's a MYTH since the point is these people ALREADY HAVE NEW SKILLS.

[Beware the Beast Man]

53. I'm going to clarify my stance, sans personal attack:

I never intended for my post to be a put down, not even subconsciously. What happened to these workers, and to others around this country who are losing their jobs at a rapid clip, is horrible. It shouldn't stand. My original point (and what the Hell was it again?) is that when a community relies so heavily on one form of industry, it is crippling. It was an observation, not a brush-off, not corporate sloganeering, none of that. Skills-based learning, in my ideal universe, should be either free or cheap and readily available to everyone of all ages in this country, in the event that another industry gets wiped out by outsourcing and foreign competition. But ideadlly, of course, those jobs should stay in the first place.

What you did by calling me a "corporate troll" was lash out at me with little or no constructive criticism of your own. Rather than say, "Well, I disagree, and here is why," you accused me of corporate propaganda. It couldn't be further from the truth. It's not as if I was quoting passages from "Who Moved My Cheese" (which is, by the way, the cruelest, most condescending, most disingenuous book I've had the displeasure of reading).

Oh, and as for the "not coming back" thing I said in another post, as a resident of the rust belt, I'm still waiting idly for the mills to fire up again. It's been 25 years, but I'm still waiting.


All of this is probably irrelevant. Your mind is made up about me, I am sure. You think I am a corporate troll, and there is little I can do about it. Feel free to dissect this post any way you please.

[Robert Oak]

54. you're not listening

I've said it repeatedly..."retraining" is a CORPORATE PROPAGANDA TALKING POINT.

It is corporate propaganda to avoid dealing with labor arbitrage and corporations hunting the globe for their slave labor.

You are repeatedly posting CORPORATE PROPAGANDA


Over and over and over again....

This is known PROPAGANDA! Check out who we are...do you think we're not ON the corporate agenda of global labor arbitrage?

Do you not realize that we might know something about this?

It is a CORPORATE PROPAGANDA TALKING POINT and UNTRUE!

[Beware the Beast Man]

55. Oh, okay.

[Robert Oak]

57. Thank you

Few release the corporate public relations talking points. They put these out there as strongly as an Ad to buy "Dell computers".

They are everywhere, in the press, on TV and most frightening, out of the mouths of our representatives.

Look for the latest one, coming at us in order to dramatically increase the H-1B Visa which has been proved repeatedly
in study after study
to displace American engineers, repress wages and is a labor arbitrage tool.

here it is, seriously, look for it.

"America needs to be competitive".

You will see this statement interwoven everywhere.

I'm quite serious, they have entire departments of lobbyists, public relations and political science people crafting these mantras.

An old one which no longer works: "Outsourcing is good for America".

My God, they even got the US economic policy advisor to puke out this sentence. Unbelievable power and the art of public relations
(which one can obtain a PhD in by the way) is glorified snake charming to sway public opinion.

[debbierlus]

18. So, true!

In the 90s, everyone was suppossed to re-educate for the technological jobs that would be the new American economy.

But, we are losing those jobs at a breath-taking pace to India & China.

It is SO expensive to maintain even a modest standard of living (own your own home, a very occassional vacation, a meal out every once in a while)....

Two people working full time are MANDATORY to keep afloat for most families. And, even with that people are running in place.

[entanglement]

26. If you read the article, you'll see that the paper

industry's been hurt more by email, online transactions and Net advertising.

[dysfunctional press]

30. that's not completely true-

even with the "internets", we're still using more paper than ever.

china and mexico are the real reasons.

[entanglement]

35. Even so, it doesn't help to externalize the problem

The Chinese didn't come here and demand control of the paper business at gun-point, did they?

[dysfunctional press]

37. they didn't need a gun-

just lower prices.

[Lorien]

43. Very true. We all need multiple skills as individuals too

I'm a former traditional Disney animator. When was the last time you saw a hand drawn Disney film in theaters that wasn't produced in Korea? They closed our studio-but fortunately I kept up my illustration skills, others learned Flash and Maya, some got their MAs and went on to teach, others learned website design. Those that stuck with hand drawn animation are really having a tough time these days. It's brutal, no doubt about that, but it is a "survival of the fittest" situation. Evolve, or become obsolete.

[Blue_Tires]

13. i'm an out-of-work reporter

and i can attest that this market has been dry for awhile now, and is only getting worse

[Lorien]

41. Personally I think America needs to return to Hemp

the hemp used in paper, clothing, food and oil products is a different species than cannabis, but politicians are too skittish of the association to lift the ban on growing hemp in the USA. Hemp renews itself quickly and makes stronger fibers for paper and clothing; even Thomas Jefferson was a fan and grew hemp at Monticello. The paper industry-like Kleenex-is now lobbying to cut down the last remaining old growth forests in the US so you can blow your nose and wipe your ass in cushioned comfort. There are better ways of creating these products.

For more information: http://www.hemp.co.uk/

[Viking12]

17. Its those damn environmentalists

..at least that's what Rush and Hannity will say.

NE Wisconsin is heavily invested in the paper industry. A plant in my town of 20,000 just laid-off 500 workers. The effects of the loss of those well-paying jobs are going ripple through our entire community.

[Vinca]

24. I saw an American flag marked "Made In China."

I got a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes. It's the final insult.

[devilgrrl]

28. Big deal! Queers can't marry and that's what matters.

:sarcasm:

[CabalPowered]

46. The paper industry is in real bad shape

I buy paper by the truckload and we are now getting some of our stock from Asia. One of vendors simply can't find rolls for some of their customers, which is leading to some serious hoarding. It's just amazing that prices are to a point where the cost of transporting from Asia still makes these papers affordable. Fortunately for us, smaller sheet sizes are still available domestically.

There are few success stories in all of this. For example, a small mill in a Washington was forced to close and the town scrounged up enough money to buy the mill and retain all the employees. The started specializing in some of the boutique papers and now they're running at 100% capacity with a good backlog of orders.

[montana500]

51. Paper industry is in bad shape because....

They are selling all their property (hundreds of thousands of acres) to real estate development firms. The owners of these companies are chashing in.