May I show you the reason why higher gas prices in Europe aren't "bad"?

[Thtwudbeme]

May you please realize that Americans are simply forced to drive more than most Europeans so the cost for transportation is, with higher prices that pay for many more socially beneficial things than our high prices do (Which mostly go to BIG BUSINESESS you numbskulls), are either lower percapita or about the same?

Can you read instead of playing like our proportianally lower prices are somehow a "good" thing?

Here taken from a non-motorized transport study.:


Mode Split in Urban Areas (Pucher and Lefevre, 1996)

................Car.......Transit.....Cycling....Walking......Other

Austria.........39%.........13%.........9%..........31%........8%

Canada..........74%.........14%.........1%..........10%........1%

Denmark.........42%.........14%.........20%.........21%........3%

France..........54%.........12%..........4%.........30%........0%

Germany.........52%.........11%..........10%........27%........0%

Netherlands.....44%..........8%..........27%........19%........1%

Sweden..........36%..........11%.........10%........39%........4%

Switzerland.....38%..........20%.........10%........29%........3%

UK..............62%..........14%..........8%........12%........4%

USA.............84%...........3%..........1%.........9%........2%

Nonmotorized travel is much more common in some urban areas than others.

Hence it has less of a detrimental effect on most other people.

We've been screwed, mainly by General Motors under Sloan, wake up.

[JI7]

1. what are the prices in Canada?

[Thtwudbeme]

3. What's that have to do with mode of travel?

This a frequency issue.

[spooky3]

24. I think s/he's asking because your argument is that high

gas prices (including high gas taxes) cause people to use cars less and use public transit, bikes, walking and other modes of transportation more. The country that is the most similar to the US in many ways (of those listed) is Canada. If Canadian gas prices are somewhat higher than in the US, that strengthens your case, because Canadians use alternative transportation more frequently than do people in the US.

But maybe I misunderstood.

[Brundle_Fly]

38. Canada

is about $4.40 a gallon.

[laundry_queen]

79. I calculated the price from where I am.

Right now our gas is at $1.10/liter.
If I got my conversion right, we are paying $3.68/gallon.
I'm in a small town, my parents in the city pay less.
hth.

[Jamison]

2. Good post.

Europeans live with $6 a gallon gas without too much inconvenience. When gas gets to be $6 a gallon here, that will bury us.

It also helps that most of those countries there are about the size of the state of Indiana, relatively speaking.

[marmar]

4. 3 % mass transit use in the U.S.? Shameful...

And people will argue, "well it's a much bigger country." Maybe so, but most people live in concentrated urban areas. But we don't invest in mass transit here. Canadian cities are laid out like those in the U.S., but notice the higher public transit use.

[Coastie for Truth]

6. Voters here are highly prone to vote against transit bonds

I lived in Pittsburgh when the voters killed the "Skybus"

And, even in Silicon Valley, which is still choking on traffic after the dot.com bust, extending BART to Silicon Valley looks like it is in trouble.

I have always felt that this opposition is, psychologically, a machissimo thing in America. (Remember the whispering campaign against electric cars and the first generation of hybrids - very much on male identity and machissimo).

[salin]

21. when I moved away

I thought a connector between caltran and bart (near the airport?) was underway? (I moved away just before the bust) A lot of folks scooting up and down the penninsula used caltran.

I live now where there is very little public transportation - but spent years living in the bay area (good system), and metro DC (good system). I think we are in an era after reagan of "no taxes no taxes no taxes" - thus that folks no longer view infrastructure (including public transportation) as a community investment/asset - and instead believe (in many areas) that it is a "service for the poor" - just more absurd vestiges of the Reagan era.

[Coastie for Truth]

26. I lived in Pittsburgh PA

where Mayor Pete Flaherty "defeated" rapid transit because it was "new" (PIttsburgh is really a very conservative, blue collar, don't rock the boat area), and because it would allow "undesirables" (this was 1969) access to "desirable" neighborhoods to "commit crimes."

Flaherty was elected on that platform (I voted for John Tabor - only time I ever voted for a Repuke). Since then the city went from 750,000 to 285,000 -- and because of the shrinking population and the inability to attract new industry, taxes on the remaining oldsters (my mom) went up over 100% faster then inflation.

The cost of defeating transit.

[Retrograde]

44. it's sort of finished

"I thought a connector between caltran and bart (near the airport?) was underway? (I moved away just before the bust) A lot of folks scooting up and down the penninsula used caltran."

It opened about 2 years ago. Usage isn't as high as originally thought, possibly because BART had the charming notion that people who normally took Caltrain (the old c. 1880 railroad) to SF would transfer to BART halfway up the peninsula, overlooking the minor details that (1) it would be more expensive, (2) it would take longer and (3) a lot of businesses sprung up close to the SF train station in recent years.

I have a very low opinion of BART, an overly bloated system. Caltrain, OTOH, tries to get it right. I take it to SF once a week and it's comfortably full, even in mid-day (rush hour is often standing room only).

[Gormy Cuss]

54. Caltrain really does seem more civilized and attuned to commuters

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the estimated demand for Caltrain/BART transfers was off the wall. If BART really wants to improve passenger counts on the extension they should make the Millbrae station a transfer point for express buses across the bridge to San Jose, Fremont and Dublin/Pleasanton.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

55. 90% don't use it in France.

According to the chart*, everyone is doing shitty.






* Pending verification

[JanMichael]

61. France has 30% walking. This is the IDEAL situation.

It's healthier, health benefits outweigh accident risks, and means that basic services are generally closer than anywhere else.

[laundry_queen]

81. I live in a small town

That is nearly all 'suburbian', no higher density in the downtown core, and we have 2 buses. For our small town. That are used a LOT. Many kids get to school that way (it's a no boundaries school system). A lot of people walk, even though it's about a 20-30 min walk to downtown. In fact I've never lived in a place where people didn't walk to places on a regular basis, and I've never lived in a big city. And here in Canada, everything is more spread out and more sparsely (is that bad english? More sparsely? lol) populated. Me thinks it may be an American mindset?

[Swamp Rat]

5. I miss Europe...

It was so much easier getting around. I could hop on a train in Innsbruck and visit family in Bayern in a couple of hours or go to the Deutsches Museum in München oder Wien wenn ich mehr Zeit hatte... you can bring bicycles on board trains and trams too.

[Horse with no Name]

7. We could afford higher prices at the pumps

if we had nationalized healthcare to compensate. As it is, we have to pay astronomical prices for healthcare AND gasoline.

[area51]

29. Important point.

Our insane healthcare costs are skyrocketing due to republinazi HMOs & PPOs. And millions of people don't have access to healthcare due to having no health insurance. We have virtually no "safety net" if you lose your job. Workers have very few rights, and I've seen plenty of companies which won't hire you if you don't have your own car.

[ConsAreLiars]

8. Europe has an infrastructure for public trans. Ever since GM destroyed

the trolley systems in the US, corporate power has been an enemy of rational transportation systems. The price of gas has little to do with it, other than the fact that gas taxes in Europe are used to build public transportation while gas taxes in the US are used to subsidize the auto industry.

[jbnow]

9. Interesting statements.

I can believe GM ruined the trolley system (like the paper industry and others did to hemp growing laws) but I'd never heard of it.

I didn't know Europe used gas taxes for public transportation either. Great idea.

[ConsAreLiars]

11. A few links - just good business practice

See these regarding GM and the trolley systems:
http://environment.about.com/od/fossilfuels/a/streetcars.htm
http://www.lovearth.net/gmdeliberatelydestroyed.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

As for my assertion that European countries use gas taxes to finance public transportation, I could not quickly find any breakdown of how that money is allocated, but it is clearly intended to push people into using public transit:
http://www.brookings.edu/views/articles/nivola/1999pi.htm

[DemExpat]

33. Links about Klein and Olson's 1996 movie "Taken for a Ride"

to add to your references!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0236785/

http://www.culturechange.org/issue10/taken-for-a-ride.htm

http://www.newday.com/films/Taken_for_a_Ride.html

DemEx

[jbnow]

63. Thanks

The links taught me a lot.

[gristy]

76. Oh yeah. Others have given many good links, but I have to add my

recollection of a special on public television about what happened. In a nutshell: GM bought the trolley systems and they burned the cars. The special had film of dozens and dozens of cars being torched. Torched! Very sad.

[pnorman]

12. "gas taxes in Europe are used to build public transportation"

That gets to the heart of the matter, and highlights how in thrall this country is to Big Oil. And it was for many years, bipartisan. GM putting municipal trolly systems out of business has already been mentioned here. Also worthy of note was putting "Tidelands Oil" (offshore oil drilling) under state control rather than federal. That gave the Big Oil lobbyists much grater 'leverage", and with much less oversight. There's also that infamous "Oil Depletion Alowance" Here's a good article on that, as well as a few other points: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Corporate_Welfare/Oil_Tax_Breaks.html

pnorman
On edit: Here's some details on that Oil Depletion Allowance:

In what some Texans view as the Good Old Days, the federal government allowed owners of oil wells to take a tax savings for selling their oil. Specifically, a firm could reduce its corporate income tax by an oil depletion allowance equal to roughly 27.5 percent of the value of the crude oil sold. The Revenue Act of 1924 limited the depletion allowance to no more than 50 percent of a property's taxable income before depletion but after deduction of expenses directly associated with the producing property. As amazing as it seems, firms were actually recompensated for using up their own reserves.

The oil depletion allowance gave oil companies a strong incentive to vertically integrate. If a company owned the wells, processed the crude oil, and sold gasoline and other products to final consumers, it could control the price it charged its own units for the oil. The law gave firms an incentive to charge a very high internal transfer price for the oil so that the firm could earn a large allowance, which depended on the value of the crude oil sold.

Needless to say, oil companies took advantage of this tax loophole with enthusiasm by vertically integrating. With the end of this opportunity in 1974, there was large-scale divestiture of firms' downstream retailers.

http://wps.aw.com/aw_carltonper_modernio_4/0,9313,1424998-content,00.html

[classics]

10. Walking and public transit are no longer safe in the US.

People know they will be robbed or attacked if they go out alone in any major US city, so they never go anywhere without a car.

Its easy to say people are just lazy but really they are scared shitless.

America is falling apart.

[wickerwoman]

13. I don't see it.

I lived in a major U.S. city for 10 years- never owned a car. Walked or took the bus everywhere and was never once robbed, attacked, or even bothered.

I think the problem is the endless bloody suburbs. Everyone wants their 3000 square foot house and patch of lawn. The problem is that that doesn't happen for everybody unless we build soulless sprawling suburbs where it's impossible to walk anywhere and the buses can only service a fraction of the homes practically.

America is screwed because city planning has been based on the automobile for the past fifty years. You just can't build a transit system that will service many suburbs economically.

[huskerlaw]

14. That's bullshit

I'm a 20-something, single female. I live in Los Angeles and I ride the subway every day. I've never been robbed and never been scared.

One of my best friends is a 30-something single female, living in New York City. She too uses the subway every day. She's never been robbed, and has never told me she was scared. In fact, earlier today we discussed how much we both love being able to use the subway for our commutes.

If people are scared, it's because they're ignorant.

America may well be falling apart, but it's not because people are rightfully to scared to use mass transit in a major city.

[marmar]

22. That's so not true...

Most mass transit systems in big U.S. cities, including New York, D.C., Boston, Chicago, are very safe, well into the night. I've ridden the New York and Chicago subways in the wee hours, and there were still plenty of people on them and not a hint of danger.

[Blue_Tires]

25. wow, what city do you live in?

I've used transit regularly in NY/NJ, DC, Chicago and Atlanta with zero problems

[lectrobyte]

28. Do you have a cite for that information?

[Terran]

31. Fear has nothing to do with it.

Your post is utter crap. It's laziness, pure and simple. Americans simply don't want to be bothered with mass transit.

[kestrel91316]

36. Also, it's classist/racist. They don't want to get on a bus with

"those" people.

[BooScout]

37. EXACTLY. n/t

[hfojvt]

57. I see that in middle America

Cars are lined up around the schools. People are afraid to let their kids walk home in this town of 38,000. In Deutschland, my morning train to Siegen filled up with schoolkids. Would such a thing be conceivable in the US? We have a huge mass transit system in this country, only it is just used to get kids to and from school.

A person is also much less safe walking and biking in a small town or city than they are in a car, especially at night.

[kestrel91316]

35. What utter BS. I go walking and riding my bike alone in Los Angeles

all the time and am perfectly safe doing so.

There may be certain areas and times (South Central after dark on Friday) where this is not the case, but in general it's very safe. And the biggest threat is from CARELESS DRIVERS, not bad people committing violent crimes.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. That's suburban paranoia

I lived in Portland, Oregon within walking distance of downtown without a car for ten years and frequently rode the bus and transit at night.

I currently live in Minneapolis, and I'm not afraid to walk in my neighborhood or in the commercial areas.

I even rode the bus and subway at night in Los Angeles when I was down there in 2001, and was never afraid, even though I was often the only light-skinned person on the bus. But people were friendly, not hostile.

I know about suburban paranoia. My relatives have it BAD, but none of them have lived anywhere but a suburb since 1962. (I'm the urban maverick.)

If Americans are "scared shitless," it's because the only news that comes out of cities in the MSM, especially on TV news, is shootings and fires.

Lily-livered racists who believe all the fear-mongering on TV are one reason I refuse to live in the suburbs.

[gristy]

77. If you watch the news on the cable networks, that is indeed what

it looks like. The reality is that it isn't.

[DFW]

15. I'm in Europe most of the year

And I can confirm several good points brought up here.

First off, the structure of cities and towns here is
basically that which has evolved over the last 1500
years. There is a city core, and a public transportation
system that feeds into it--a very dense and frequent
public transportation system. Streetcars, busses, local
trains, even suspended monorails (Wuppertal), or ferries
(Stockholm). Public transportation in Europe is not just
for the economically disadvantaged--everyone uses it.
Taking the traffic into account in the crowded streets
here in Germany, it certainly saves time over a car.

Second--European countries are tiny compared to the vast
distances of North America. In most countries, if you drive
for three hours, you are in another country, sometimes even
two or three. Where I am stationed, it is an hour's drive
to Holland, an hour and a half to Belgium, or three hours to
France. Seven hours will put you in Austria, Poland, the Czech
Republic or Switzerland. In the States, you're doing well if that
will get you from Boston to Washington, or from San Francisco
to L.A.

[WinkyDink]

80. You lucky son-of-a-gun! I've traveled there plenty, but LIVE? I'd love to!

And yes, the transportation system is enviable! I live 50 miles north of Philly, and last year some acquaintances were astounded to find there is zero train service from here to anywhere.

[BooScout]

16. One argument that Americans love to use....

Is that America is so big and spread out that public transportation is just not viable. I call BS, BS, BS. There are rural areas in the UK....they have bus links to train stations and airports. Taxis are frequently used when public transportation is unavailable or not quick enough.

Many Americans in the big cities don't use the public transportation. Take Atlanta. They have MARTA, Cobb County transit and Gwinnett Transit. The vast majority prefer to hop in their cars and sit in traffic rather than take MARTA. I have seen people sit an hour or more in traffic rather than take a 30 minute trainride or bus ride. To them Public Transportation is for the lower masses.

You can't blame everything on GM. Blame it on Americans themselves for buying into the gotta have the big car mentality. Gotta drive everywhere. Gotta go, go, go.

Americans MUST start now in reinventing the way it travels. Bring back the trains. They can link rural areas to metropolitan areas. Tax the damned gas and use the tax to subsidize & expand public transportation. Set a portion of the tax aside to research alternative fuels. Give businesses a reason to encourage telecommuting and R&D for alternative transportation and fuels. Fine and shut down businesses that repeatedly refuse to comply with clean air laws. Pass more rigorous clean air laws.

I get so sick of the "it's too late" or "we are different than Europe" argument. It's a lousy whiney assed excuse to sit on your ass and wring your hands and point fingers. The solution starts with each and every individual. Make a change. No matter how small. It's still a step in the right direction.

[NuttyFluffers]

18. hell, apparently Canada does better than us and it's bigger.

in fact, it's better than average for the shown countries, besting many european countries. i'd like to see japan's stats, though. and india has a rail system that the country absolutely depends on; vastly more population than america and roughly equivalent in hugeness to the contiguous lower 48. i'm rather fascinated that there seems to be a rather constant range of around 10% though. i would have thought it would have been higher.

[Francine Frensky]

23. Atlanta's MARTA doesn't go many places

it doesn't reach very far up into the suburbs, where millions of car drivers live, and it doesn't connect many major things (like Turner Field or Ga. tech or the big business hubs). MARTA is SLOW; unless there is a major, major wreck, like something that happens once a year, then your story of a one-hour drive vs. 30 minutes on MARTA is totally false. MARTA is poorly conceived and poorly managed AND Georgia has been pouring money into roads for fifty years, resulting in the best interstates in the country, so of course people are going to drive on those nice roads. If you build it, they will come.

I'm not PRO-CARS, I'm just a realist, and the reality is there is NO decent public transportation option here and Georgia has put so much money into roads that OF COURSE people are going to drive. You reap what you sow and the state and local governments have done nothing but encourage people to drive.

[Blue_Tires]

27. poorly concieved, yes

but come on, all those trendy Atlanta exurbs now stretch 30-40 miles outside the city, and are constantly sprawling out farther away (I'm sorry, but imo, if residents choose to live 2-3 counties away from downtown, they do not have a reasonable expectation of MARTA coming to their doorstep)....When I was living in Atlanta (southwest) the MARTA was just starting to stretch out into the immediate suburbs after years of residents clamoring for them--and as a show of thanks, the suburbanites moved out to newer, untouched territory....believe it or not, there is a suburbanite element that does NOT want to live in a place where the common 'urban' folks can take MARTA to their neighborhood/stores/malls....

and as the universal axiom goes, the more roads there are, the more cars and development come to fill them up, so nothing is truly gained in easing traffic....

[BooScout]

34. You obviously don't ride MARTA...

The station at Georgia State comes up a short walk from Turner field or you can take the train to Five Points and then catch a shuttle to the Ted. Georgia Tech also has a nearby station (North Ave) that you can easily walk to Grant Field from. MARTA goes to Lennox Mall which is right next to what many call the Financial District. It goes all over Downtown, to Doraville to Decatur, to Perimeter Mall, not to mention the airport ....all big business, commerce, shopping areas (and many stations have park n ride)........and where the train doesn't go the buses do. MARTA was not poorly conceived. It was Cobb County, Gwinnett County and Clayton County who refused to join MARTA because of racial fears that damaged the plan. They have just in the past few years formed their own bus lines that dump their passengers off at MARTA stations that Dekalb & Fulton County taxpayers have paid for for the past 30 some odd years. They love their free ride on the backs of others.

You can't entirely blame the state and local governments either. Public transportation has repeatedly been put to the vote in the Metro Atlanta area and for years Cobb, Gwinnett and Clayton countians voted it down. It was only when people started sitting in total gridlock that they finally relented and installed small bus systems.......too little and almost too late. The system can still be expanded, but it will cost and cost big......the alternative is to just turn I-285, 75, 85 and 400 into parking lots.....which they pretty much turn into at rush hour anyway.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. Right, Japan has lots of little rural villages, too

And if there isn't a train running through, there's a bus.

[NuttyFluffers]

67. that stunned me. even the most rural places by koya-san had 'em

rural places around nikko, koya-san, etc. were all "on the system" when it came to access via mass transit. at one time we had the same thing in the USA with trains going everywhere. but it was all abandoned for cars. now small towns are shriveling up here whereas the small rural towns in japan didn't look like nearly the ghost towns i've seen in america. but then, there's only so much one can learn from a first impression, so i'll take your comments to heart, having lived there yourself.

it just confirms my impression. it was stunning watching little old ladies, 70-90 years old, hopping on the train to i guess pilgrimages in rural towns. their luggage was handled by shipping it directly to the hotel they'll stay at for a small fee (around $7 per large bag) leaving them wholly unencumbered to travel by train or bus to places that are hours away. so convenient. these elderly people were so independent by virtue of this well coordinated transit system. it makes me sad how isolated and deprived our elderly have to be due to our obsession with cars. poorly funded mass transit leads to lack of convenient services and hours, a vicious cycle.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

71. Yes, Japanese old people go shopping, visiting, and traveling freely

even if they're physically incapable of driving.

I'm seeing how bad it is for older people now, given the situation with my mother and stepfather. My brothers and I don't want them driving, but the only alternatives are expensive cabs, so one of us siblings ends up chauffeuring them.

You mentioned Koya-san. When I went there, I went part of the way on a little local train that literally served as school bus for a series of tiny villages, carrying teenagers to junior and senior high schools in larger towns.

I knew a couple (the husband was a professor in Portland) who spent a year in Japan with their children. At the end of the year, the children (ages 10 and 13, as I remember) didn't want to come home, because they loved the freedom of going around town alone, without having to wait for rides. (The parents loved it, too.)

[Skidmore]

17. Well and fine, I would welcome a short line in this neck of the woods

but we have a congress hell bent on destroying rail and bus. And with what money is mass transit to be developed now? We have two wars going on and this administration determined to start others.

[druidity33]

19. maybe not all

of America is like that. When i lived in NYC I didn't know ANYONE with a car. Everyone i knew took the bus, subway or walked. Of course, i'm poor, so that may tell you something about who i knew. I commuted for 10 months from Staten Island to 181st and Amsterdam (Washington Heights)... it took me almost 2 hours each way. Every morning i'd walk a mile to the bus, which took me to the ferry, to the subway, then walk a half mile to the final destination way uptown. It was the only time during the day that i was able to listen to music, read the paper, a book, write in my journal, etc. I think, at least in NYC the number is a lot lower than 84%. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't do so much better. When people say it's a bigger country... THEY ARE RIGHT! What are the stats for China by the way? Or India? And the funny thing is they may be lower than us but i'll bet that's not because they want to be. Excepting maybe Kerala.. where social consciousness has taken over, i'll bet everyone in India would want a car if they could get one.

Without a major paradigm shift we are stuck with car culture because people PREFER it and they are unwilling to sacrifice their PERSONAL freedom or depend on others for their transportation. I have never had a license to drive and at 34, when i tell people that, 90% of the time i get a shocked look and a slew of questions. People just can't believe that i would choose not to drive.

Three books that helped me see beyond car/consumer culture:

No More Throw-Away People by Edgar Cahn
Dwellers in the Land by Kirkpatrick Sale
In the Absence of the Sacred by Jerry Mander

Still, we could make things better even as they are... check this out:
http://valleyadvocate.com/gbase/News/content?oid=oid:146677
http://www.scuderigroup.com/

[TheBaldyMan]

20. Fuel is taxed much more heavily in Europe. Most of the price is tax

when petroleum products double in price the price at the pump only goes up 10-25%. Bad but not catastrophic. The price (inc. tax) is so high that the incentive to drive a smaller more fuel-efficient car is much, much greater.

Yes you may be forced to drive but to suggest you can't walk or cycle anywhere is a bit hard to believe. Europe has a bigger population than the US in a smaller area but the levels of urbanisation are around the same. America does not discourage fuel-inefficient cars that cost a small fortune to run in Europe.

If most motorists in the US started to drive fuel-efficient compacts there would be a lot less gas guzzled.

[upi402]

30. high price = high profits -BAD. But taxed gas = infrastructure -GOOD

:shrug:

[dsc]

32. I admit to a huge surprise

that transit seems to account for a small amount even in countries that have very low car percentages. Only in Switzerland does it make it to 20%. That is really shocking.

[Beelzebud]

39. Not all Americans live in big cities.

If you aren't in a big city there is NO option for public transportation.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. Yes, but in the small town where I lived for seven years

people literally drove on two block trips.

A healthy adult should be able to walk a mile without trouble. Hell, I can walk 3 miles around the nearest lake and barely break a sweat.

But if you insist on driving two blocks, you won't be a healthy adult too long.

My mother is Exhibit A for the results of being a life-long car potato. At age 85, she's in worse health than her mother was at 95, and it's mostly osteoporosis, overweight, and high blood pressure.

[BooScout]

45. Oh yes there is.....

A bike, your two feet, buses. A bus may cost the city or county, but it gets people around. Not all of Europe or the UK is big cities and MANY manage to get around without a car. It can be done. Walking a mile or so is not a bad thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. Exactly

The small town where I lived was a college town. For some reason, the foreign students were able to get around just fine without cars. They walked or rode bikes. They WERE frustrated by the lack of bus or train service to Portland. In Japan, a town of that size located that distance from a large regional city would have had bus or train service at least every hour, if not more often.

I know from personal experience that it took only 1/2 hour to walk across the entire town, not a major exertion for a healthy adult. Yet it was a community of car potatoes.

[Beelzebud]

70. Ok but here is the thing you're not thinking about.

Most of us around my area drive at least 20 miles a day to get to work.

Should they just bike it in the snow?

Should they just walk when it's 100 degrees in the summer?

[struggle4progress]

43. There's a greenhouse gas issue here, too

Something like 5% of the CO2 problkem is coming from American tailpipes ...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. I Just Want To Say, I Don't Want To Use Public Transportation. I Have No

desire to. I enjoy my privacy and independance and have no desire whatsoever to encourage or partake in avid public transportation use. I want to drive my car whenever I want as often as I want. I don't consider that to be inherently evil, worthy of guilt or something I should be ashamed of. I enjoy the freedom of driving whenever I want and see no reason I shouldn't be able to. I hope they come up with more fuel efficient cars and continue to hope we progress to renewable energy and innovation that erradicates all of the negatives with big oil and our dependance, as well as fuel costs and environmental issues. But in the meantime, while we still have oil and our cars are as they are I have no problem driving them as often as I wish. I'm glad public transportation works so well in europe. More power to em. And I respect all those here that encourage the use of public transportation and use it often. Just isn't for me is all.

[marions ghost]

48. OK but how about

looking at it this way. If other people want to take mass transit it will get more cars off the road making it so much easier for you to get around in your beloved carapace.*

Maybe from a self-centered pt of view, you could support mass transit on the basis that it will help traffic congestion. I could tell you some stories about critical hospital workers who don't have sole access to a car and often cannot get to work unless someone can give them a lift. This is reaching crisis levels. We need comprehensive safe mass transit and we needed it yesterday.

Think outside the metal box if you will. This has a huge impact on society, of which you are a part.

----------------------
***carapace \KAIR-uh-pace\, noun:
1. The thick shell that covers the back of the turtle, the crab, and other animals.
2. Something likened to a shell that serves to protect or isolate from external influence.

[BooScout]

50. You know what the problem you can't see is?

The problem is that when you get in your car and have your privacy, you also deplete the supply of fossil fuels and pollute mightily. If we all wait until they come up with altrenative fuels and renewable energy it may be too late for the earth.....and those that live on it.

What happens if we run out of gas and you can't drive at all? What then?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

51. I'll Deal With That Then. And No, I'm Not Depleting ANYTHING Mightily.

That's ridiculous. I also don't pollute mightily. I have a car, I have access to gas. While that gas is available, I'm gonna buy it and drive to my hearts content. I don't mean that to be arrogant and obnoxious, it's just I'm so sick of all the damn guilt trips given to people because they want to goddamn drive. It's enough already. I enjoy driving and will continue to until I am FORCED to have to adapt to something else. If we run dry on oil someday I will deal with that then, and deal with the inconveniences then. I don't worry about that. I adapt well and when the day comes I'll be fine. But I don't need to sweat that right now. Right now the gas station at the top of my block has gas. I have a car. I can put that gas in my car. Good enough for me.


(p.s. The Earth will be fine. WE may not be, ultimately, but the EARTH will do just fine.)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

52. Yes, it's all about you, isn't it?

Okay, enjoy your freedom to sit in traffic jams (blaming other drivers for being "traffic") and spend thousands of dollars per year on each vehicle.

Just remember that millions of people making exactly the same decisions as you are collectively responsible for air pollution and the degradation of the American landscape and social fabric through their worship of the almighty car.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

53. Blah Blah Guilt Trip Blah

I will continue to do that. Thank you.

[Jara sang]

49. The Dutch really love their bicycles.

[phusion]

56. Is there any way to have a map of Europe...

transposed over a map of the US? I'd like to see the difference between the two...This has to play a part in gas use, no? Especially out here in the West.

[BooScout]

58. I can't do that.......

But go back and look at the OPs figure for Canada and explain that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

59. That may be a factor in rural areas, but there was no earthly reason to

plan cities and suburbs (where most people in the West and South live anyway) so that one is forced to drive. Cities such as Seattle and Los Angeles could easily accommodate more transit, and Denver just approved a massive light rail project in which several lines will be built at once.

[JanMichael]

60. Actually I'm a GIS wiz but it's really an Urban/Rural issue.

So mapping it the way you've requested is a waste of time.

If you want Urban v. Rural which is the better comparison look here.

What you'll find is that the US and Europe are about the same:

continent population 2000
total...........................................urban%.....rural%
Northern America ................................77.4......22.6
Latin America and the Caribbean..................75.3......24.5
Oceania..........................................74.2......25.8
Europe...........................................73.5......26.5
Asia.............................................37.5......62.6
Africa...........................................37.2......62.7


Look at that...We're actually more urbanized. Densities are slightly different which reall only effect walking and biking but not public transit. If anything denser cities would need LESS than sprawl towns.

[BooScout]

62. Excellant data!

That just blows away the theory that America is too spread out for a public transportation system to work now doesn't it?

[never cry wolf]

64. There still is a problem with distances in the US, even urban

European cities are much more compact and dense than US cities, in general. For example, Paris is about the same size in area as Champaign/Urbana. European cities also do not have the vast suburbam sprawl as US urban areas. Suburban Chicago, where I am, stretches for some 30 plus miles in all directions outside of the city, except due east of course.

This makes publis transport much harder to solve logistically. I spent a year of college in Versailles, essentially a suburb of Paris. I could walk to any one of 3 train station in town, take it 13 or so miles into Paris and from there hook up to the Metro and get withing a few blocks of anywhere in Paris. It was quiet, safe and clean. It is also government subsidised so it is quite affordable. Chicago also has mass transit, but people in the suburbs drive to the commuter trains, for the most part. Many suburbs are 7 or 8 miles from a train line. Once in town there are subways and the el, but again there are wide gaps in coverage necessitating use of the bus system. This adds much time and inconvenience to a trip.

I don't know the numbers, but I would venture to guess that the Chicago urban area has more miles of public transport than urban Paris but being spread out over much larger areas makes it impracticle and inconvenient for most people.

[JanMichael]

65. Oy vey. Basically the issue boils around us not building stations...

...and lines.

Densities are not as different for most US cities as you infer.

As you can see Chicago has the approximately same density as London:

Chicago 4,923.0/km²

London 4,699/km²

Whoops density in Chicago is higher:-)

What 'm saying is this...A choice was made by rich assed companies and the US government to screw us all.

Here is a site dedicated to pointing out the carp that has deprived us ALL of decent socially responsible transportation alternatives: http://www.trainweb.org/mts/ctc/index.html

[never cry wolf]

73. You are correct, for the city proper maybe

I'll warrant that the percentage of commuters into the London City limits from outside are far less than in Chicago. At least 60 or 70% of the Chicago metropolitan area is outside of the city limits with very little access to public transportation.

I don't disagree with you and am not trying to excuse our lack of usage of public transport. I am saying that urban sprawl, (including suburban sprawl) which does not exist on this scale in europe contributes greatly to out lack of use of public transport. We need to rethink our concept of cities and urban planning.

In europe, there are shops within walking distance of most residents that sell the essentials. No need to drive 4 miles to the grocert store as you have to do in the burbs.

on edit: thank you for the link... apparently London, near the bottom i European city densities is similar to Chicago, near the top of North American. You did not point out, however, that the MOST dense NA city, NYC is in a virtual tie with the 10th place european city and that 7 of the european areas are more than TWICE as dense as the densest NA area.

[JVS]

68. Paris is the same size as Chambana?

really? Hard to believe

[never cry wolf]

74. as measured on a square mile basis, yes... n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. Metropolitan Tokyo is about the same size as metropolitan Los Angeles

Maybe bigger, if you count the adjacent cities of Kawasaki, Yokohama, and Chiba. It's a huge megalopolis, and it has superb public transit.

[never cry wolf]

75. Metropolitan Tokyo probably has 3x the population of metro LA

Too late for me to look up, but if not 3x at least 2x.

on edit: per the link provided above and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_selected_cities_by_population_density Tokyo is over 4x the density of LA.

[opihimoimoi]

66. YEaaaaaaa, ya made it back.....

Come, we go drink coffee and smoke a ciggerette, oops, forgot, used to do that to talk over probs...now, they are the probs...damn.

[NuttyFluffers]

69. what really gets me is the lack of stations and long wait times...

my friend and i noticed that in our travels. where major lines here in SF Bay Area on bart are, at fastest, during heavy commute hours, 15 min. spaced apart, transit systems in other countrys' cities were around 5 min. if that. from our hotel by tokyo bay in tokyo we were spitting distance from the station and like the one line it provided (the main line that circles tokyo) showed up every 2 minutes, kid you not. and it was pretty much like that all the way until the cutoff point around midnight. every two minutes! we were dumbfounded. we just stood there and watched to see how consistent it was.

we were blown away that people actually RAN to catch the next train -- all they had to do was wait 2 min! ooh the envy... here, if i miss a train i'm delayed 15 min at least (in the evenings it runs around every 20-30 min). if i then miss the shuttle that's another 15 min. easily a 1/2 hour of standing around, barring no hitches in the system. whereas miss catching connecting trains end up with maybe a few min lost in other cities we've been in. traveling to another major city here you have service every few hours in america, whereas 15 min to 30 min in other countries. blew us away how many service times were offered. and stations were everywhere. it'd be so nice if stations, or at least bus stops, were everywhere.

so sad.

[AngelFactor]

78. Statistically significant information

What isn't said is how large of a percentage increase the Europeans have seen in gas prices. Go ahead take a guess. Is it larger or smaller than the US increase?

* * *

American Justice? Sure, so why is an attorney getting away with tampering with court documents even though three pages of emails detailing what was done were inadvertently filed with the court.

See for yourself: http://www.maximumadvocacy.com/Court_records.html look on pages 25-27 of document 64. It's quite obvious.

Unbelievable. Priceless. Hilarious, if it wasn’t so sad but true.

How’s your faith in the justice system?

Pray you never need it.