Does not having sympathy for scam victims make me a bad person?

[KyuzoGator]

So my fiancee drags me to this "Bridal Show" last night at a local hotel. It's just one of those things you come to accept when you get engaged...it makes her happy, so whatever.

But we arrive to discover that it's not a "Bridal Show" at all, but rather a sales pitch for Royal Prestige cookware. We're both ready to leave, but the guy promises us $500 gift certificates and a free vacation to hear the pitch. We had nothing better to do.

THREE FUCKING HOURS LATER, after we've been bombarded with information about how Teflon-coated cookware gives you Alzheimer's and gives babies SIDS and kills pets...we get to the bottom line. They guy wants about $2,800 for a set of pots and pans.

In retrospect, it's funny. But I got home and Googled "Royal Prestige" and learned that they are a predatory company that targets newly-engaged couples...they renege on their "50-year unconditional warranty" and offer "$20 per month" financing that translates to 25% interest. And to top it off, the "$500 gift certificate" is for an online catalog that "charges" $60 for a plastic pen and makes you pay $15 for shipping and handling. The "free vacation" was actually a free night's stay at a hotel of their choosing on a date of their choosing!

My girl and I were smart enough to sniff the scam. But I looked through these consumer websites and saw the hundreds of people who have been duped (and had their credit ruined) by this company and I didn't feel even a hint of sympathy.

So does this make me a bad person? When I hear about scam artists ripping people off, I almost get as pissed off at the victims for being gullible as I get pissed off at the scammers.

(Edit: fixed typos)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. It doesn't make you a bad person

But I find it a bit incompassionate. Not everybody has the tools intellectually or otherwise to spot these scams.

[Burning Water]

11. It's not hard

to comprehend "There's no such thing as a free lunch", or "You can't get something for nothing". I find a curious lack of sympathy for them, too.

But the scammers should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and jailed. It's not right to take advantage of someone else's stupidity.

[unblock]

2. sadly, the same attitude is prevalent towards democrats in congress

after having been "duped" by shrub and the gang regarding the wmd lies.


sure, one can accept the con artist as a given and hope that the sane people are smart enough to sniff it out, overcome it, and do what's right.

just as one can have contempt for the burglar and yet also have little sympathy for the homeowner who leaves the front door wide open.

but one must make sure to have FAR MORE contempt for the con artist in the first place.

[seabeyond]

3. not a bad person, cause i dont feel sorry for you that you sat three

hours cause you actually thought you would get 500 dollars and a vacations, lol lol

never bought into those things. they have been out a long time, sit and win.... ya right. no sit, cause i know i am not gonna win

[KyuzoGator]

4. Fair criticism.

I sure could use those three hours back.

[Warpy]

5. Scammers typically prey on people who want something

for nothing and you would seem to fit that description. You dodged this scam, but the next scammer might not be quite as transparent.

My sympathy is on a continuum. If the scammer uses safety or public interest as his hook (as in scams to get you to reveal credit card security codes or to push certain buttons on your phone to "test" it), then I have a great deal of sympathy for the people who are scammed and I want to roast the scammer's balls over a slow fire while they're still attached to him.

However, the scams that prey on greed, like many of the Nigerian money scams, make it very difficult for me to summon much sympathy for the scammed. They wanted something for nothing and ended up getting taken for everything. They deserved it.

The scam you quite rightly sniffed out was somewhere in the middle. The hook was greed, a free vacation and a free $500 credit. However, the scam was a double one, promising a "bridal show" and delivering a high pressure sales pitch sweetened by that something for nothing offer. Because of the first, I am able to summon quite a bit of sympathy for young, acquisitive couples who got taken. Hefty fines and prison will do for those scammers.

[FloridaPat]

6. I would bet everyone will get scammed if the right scam came along.

Not everyone has access to the internet. Try going to a timeshare presentation sometime. It's high pressure sales and the reason they go after newly-engaged couples is usually they are too young to have much experience with high pressure sales.

One elderly lady in Chicago had a leak in her basement. Her husband was no longer alive. She brought in a plumber who said it was important to fix the leak because her house could rot and he would only charge her $40,000. It was probably less originally and they probably kept "running into problems". After $40,000 and a basement with no floor, she talked to someone else and found out she had been had.

I had a plumber come into my house to fix a leaky toilet. He replaced the wax. It worked for a couple of weeks and then started up again. He came back and told me the floor was rotten (send floor toilet) and it would cost $600 to fix it. I figured I really have to screw up things an awful lot for it to cost more. So I looked all over for the leak. I finally found it - a 25 gasket that was on the screw that holds the tank to the bowl. Was he a scam artist? I think so, but I know people like to take advantage of women in situations like this.

And I could go on. There are just too many cons and not enough information.

[acmavm]

7. Does it make you a bad person? I don't know. How do you feel about

the dem clowns in the House and Senate who are now claiming they 'were victims' of lies about Iraq? Same principal, bigger scam.

[Systematic Chaos]

8. What are you waiting for??? Come to Vegas!

(On second thought, DON'T!)

The piece of shit Boardwalk Hotel and Casino where I used to work (now closed) had a time-share "consulting firm" right at the front. People would get duped into wasting a day of their vacation time for their ignorant fucking presentation, and at the end of it all they *might* have received $25 or $50 in free, non-redeemable casino chips. Basically, the customer would bet them and get back real chips for winning bets and they could play until those chips were gone. But, I can't tell you how many people would walk away with only $5 or $10 in real money at the end of it all. All that for an entire day of their vacation shot in the ass.

Of course, you can't walk two blocks down the Strip without 3847379248972 of those lovely smut pushers getting in your face with their little cards and booklets. I used to put my tote bag right back in their face every time and before long they knew enough to ignore me.

[patdem]

14. Hell, Vegas itself is one big scam...beat the house..yeach reight!

Like thats gonna happen..they allow some sap to win every now and then cause its good for bidness!

[KyuzoGator]

17. "How am I supposed to know the slot machine is rigged?"

"Because they won!"

One of the best lines from Casino.

[TahitiNut]

9. It's called "social engineering" and

... when we find ourselves feeling superior to those who're victimized ("duped") we're cooperating with the scam artists. The victims often feel "stupid" and fail to report/prosecute the scams and their feeling is something we help create with our attitudes. Indeed, when we pat ourselves on the back for being 'smarter' we're engaging in the same kind of Social Darwinism that pervades the right wing.

Yes ... I've been there and done that - felt smarter and superior. The funny thing is that there're scams socially engineered for everyone - even the 'smart' ones of us.

It seems to be a natural human reaction - feeling 'safer' because we're more wary, smarter, or better somehow than those who get victimized. It's the "running from the hungry bear" syndrome. We don't have to be the fastest, just not the slowest. That's why knee-capping another person has become a popular way of not being the slowest. What we so rarely do is gang up on the bears - join ranks and, with clubs raised, chase the bear. It's a shame, I think

[pitohui]

31. tahitinut has it right -- anyone can be social engineered

what makes me chuckle is the people just a few posts upthread congratulating themselves on how smart they are because they "know" vegas can't be beat, they think they are sooo smart but they are just showing their own lack of knowledge

vegas and the casinos paid for my house

the reality is that vegas is beat by someone or several someones every damn day, blackjack is v. beatable because the game was developed prior to full knowledge of the odds and anyone w. a little training can exploit that

know-it-alls cheat themselves, they don't need any con man to cheat them out of thousands of dollars in lost opportunities a year

it is easy to feel superior but while know-it-alls are feeling superior i am quietly cashing in

i do feel sorry for scam victims, they are not necessarily bad or greedy people, they are people who see other people (like me) profiting from casinos, from gaming the time share sellers, etc. and they figure why can't they get a freebie too in this very, very rich society with so much waste, why are they the only ones who always have to lose

my parents have received thousands upon thousands of dollars in free vacations going to presentations that my mother learns abt thru the real estate business, i actually did one myself years ago, a nice vacation in the mountains just for listening to some dude try to blag me for 90 minutes, you can't beat it w. a stick

there is a line between being so gullible you fall prey to the con artists and so skeptical that you leave thousands of dollars sitting on the ground

if you are too "tight" you lose thousands every year because you are too smart to learn how to play blackjack or poker properly, too smart to learn how to coupon properly, too smart to freecycle (hey it says "free" and robert heinlein and someone's mom said there is no free lunch so must be a scam), too smart to rebate -- you know, being so smart would just plain cost me too much money!

now some people simply don't have the intellectual or math ability to see what is an opportunity and what is a con -- for those people, the safest thing to do is always to say no since they can't evaluate the proper expected value and risk/reward for an offer

but to take such automatic naysaying as a sign of intelligence is not correct, a more intelligent person could run the numbers and figure out more often where they could profitably take the offer and where they could refuse

[KyuzoGator]

32. If you look at post #16, I've gotten freebies from timeshares too.

Once in a while there's a free lunch, just not often.

I definitely don't look down on scam victims or think they are stupid...I just don't have a lot of sympathy for someone who would hand thousands of dollars of their hard-earned money to a stranger.

I'm far from being a "know-it-all"...but I know enough to know when I don't know. And that's the point at which I do some research.

[pitohui]

39. i guess i am not understanding your distinction here

you don't look down on them or think they are stupid, you just don't have any sympathy for them

i don't understand what this means

it appears to be written in english but i do not get what you want

if i don't have any sympathy or empathy for someone it is because i feel distant from them -- probably because i think they are stupid or quite a hopeless loser, i have to admit i used to experience serious feelings of contempt when i would see all the ploppies throwing away good $ at easily beaten blackjack games when with a few hours of study they could be making a nice profit

it changed my view of human nature, it made words like "lazy" come into my mind

if lack of sympathy isn't a case of me thinking myself better than others, thus looking down on them, i don't know what it is

i have to struggle to get over myself in this area

it sounds like you do too, you think you are smarter than other people and maybe you are

but all it takes is one good head injury and we're in their same boat, which is the source of my sympathy, i've had too many aging relatives have stroke or alzheimer's, had a friend have a head injury in an auto accident

the thing about intelligence is that it fades, my friend, you'll find out as you get older

you are not always guaranteed to have the same research tools you have today

[KyuzoGator]

43. I think taking advantage of people with disabilities is a different matter

You say that peoples' mental faculties can diminish with age or disease, and I understand that. This isn't a matter of being more intelligent...it's a matter of having a shred of common sense.

[msgadget]

10. It does show a little empathy deficit

because these guys are still in business because they're that good at what they do. They hire a certain type of predator, train them, send them out into the field on straight commission and you've got one persuasive huckster. If you thought this was bad, by all means avoid filling out the cards in the free baby mags when you get pregnant, the baby shows are even worse.

[0007]

12. 'Ya got more guts than superman to stay and listen for three

fucking hours to a guy trying to pick your pocket. I've heard it all when I was young from vacuum salesmen that were indeed great in getting one to sign, pots & pans salesmen, used car salesmen, soft water salesmen and Insurance men trying to scare the living fuck out ya. They target young people that are just starting out in life and short of money and its all a paper game with hidden interest. And if ya don't sign they try to make ya feel stupid.

[patdem]

13. I went to one of those 'vacation share' places and made out like a fat

cat. My boyfriend and I went...got our tolls on the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel paid both ways, back then it was about $7.00 or $7.50...we toured the lots and our prize was a SMALL haibachi grill which was perfect for me cause it was just me and my son. 4 hot dogs, or two big hamburgers..fine!

Needless to say we were NOT suckered into purchasing ANYTHING!

[KyuzoGator]

16. We did that too...sat through a timeshare pitch in Lake Tahoe...

...and came away with almost every activity of our week-long vacation paid for by the free coupons we got. But at no point were we ever reaching for our checkbooks.

Once in a blue moon there is a free lunch, but not often.

[patdem]

28. I do believe those time share things, because they are such a gargantuan

rip off, offer some good incentives, now those pots and pans cannot lure many in and it's not like they charge 50,000 for two weeks in some god forsaken camp ground. Of course 2,800 for pots and pans is an equal rip off!

[KyuzoGator]

15. One of the funniest things about the sales pitch...

...was when he dove head-first into some really complicated (and nonsensical) technical jargon about the metal composition of the cookware. He talked over and over about how the pots were designed by engineers in Germany. Apparently "engineer" is a buzzword that makes people think "high-tech."

To give you an idea of how idiotic he was, he told us that the technology in the pots causes water to boil at only 180 degreesF, and this helps lock in the vitamins of the food. Anyone who has ever taken basic chemistry knows what to think of this.

Then he went around the room and asked everyone what their profession was. After the mechanics and restaurant greeters and receptionists introduced themselves, my fiancee and I both introduced ourselves as engineers.

The look on the guy's face from then on was priceless.

[onager]

18. Drop by the Skeptics' group sometime...

You'll read about people paying hundreds of dollars for rocks...ROCKS...that they sit on top of their stereo speakers to Improve The Quantum Flow Of The Sound, or some such nonsense. Along with the usual dopery about expensive psychic advice, consultants in the "science" of Feng Shui who charge hundreds of bucks an hour, etc. etc.

Having mentioned the skeptics, I can assure you that in my case, I'm COMPLETELY aware that I can be duped. Which I hope makes me extra-careful. As people like James Randi and Michael Shermer often point out, it's not a matter of being "smarter" than all those other rubes. In fact, that kind of thinking will get you skinned before you even realize it.

Which brings me to my favorite cautionary scam story. It appeared in the Los Angeles TIMES a few years ago, as a first-person account.

Urbane, educated L.A. TIMES journalist gets sent to New York City on a story...

...and loses several hundred dollars, right on the street, playing Three-Card Monte!!! Jebus! One of the oldest sucker games in the world. Hucksters in Ancient Rome were fleecing the gullible with a variant of that one. They probably were in Ancient Greece. Hell, even cavemen probably ripped off their neighbors with Three-Bone Monte.

"I watched the game for a while, and calculated there was no possible way I could lose."

:rofl:

All these scams, though (IMO) pale beside the Ultimate Scam. Or as someone smarter than me...which is almost everybody...once put it:

"Religion is the only business in the world where the consumer blames himself for Product Failure."

[mrcheerful]

23. You forgot the biggest scammer of them all, John Edwards!

People tell him everything he wants to know before hand, then he fishes for stuff to fill in the gaps then people say hey thats my uncle heres my bank account number. People are fools, come on they bought into Reagans trickle down economics without a blink of an eye and forgot Reaganomics was nothin but Hoover nomics in a shiny new package. Rule one in life you don't get nothing for nothing, If the deal sounds to good to be true then it probably is a scam. The biggest and most played scam of them all? State lottos. They take in billions every year and return very little. Not to mention that 98% of those that do win the mega bucks end up in worse shape then they were before they won, in as little as 2 years.

[KyuzoGator]

24. John EDWARD...let's not confuse him with the former Senator from NC.

nt

[mrcheerful]

30. Sorry about that, was watching sifi channel and the announcer said Edwards

while I was typing, seems that happens a lot on the cable channels up here. Funniest one I remember is one announcer and a news caster both mispronounced a towns name the towns name is speeled Clio, its pronounced clie-o, both these people pronounced it as clee-o.

[onager]

46. The Lotto? Oh, you mean...

"The state tax on the math-impaired."

:rofl:

Thanks for reminding me of John Edward. And his even worse imitator, James Van Praagh. John-Boy-Edward is a passable cold reader, I guess, but Van Praagh is just hopeless. When people aren't giving him the right kind of information, you can actually SEE the flop-sweat breaking out on his forehead.

James Randi has a great video clip of Van Praagh on a TV show. The host breathlessly informs us that "Mr. Van Praagh has had NO CONTACT with members of our audience. He has not even SPOKEN to anyone. Etc. Etc."

Cut to commercial, during which Randi kept his camera running. Van Praagh shamelessly milks the audience for personal info, especially the idiots who want a "reading" from him.

Back from commercial, and guess what?

Yep, the same people Van Praagh chatted with during the commercial are the ones who get called up for an Incredibly Accurate Psychic Reading! Wow!

Unfortunately, the people watching TV at home couldn't see what happened during the commercial break. So it really does look Awesome and Mysterious and crap to them.

[Missy M]

19. I feel sorry for young people who haven't had enough...

experience to know they are being scammed (that is why Royal Prestige picks on young, engaged couples) and also the elderly but the people in between are fools and should know better.

[seabeyond]

20. my mama taught me all those years ago.... if it sounds too good to

be true..... then it probably is. or you dont get nuthin for free.

[Missy M]

21. That is the best advice any parent can give their children....

and it should be done at an early age. Your mama was a wise woman.

[sam sarrha]

22. the Osmosis water filter people will show up too, DONT BUY IT....

[KyuzoGator]

25. Something along the same lines, FREE BREAST EXAMS:

http://snipurl.com/pgvn

Phony doctor gives free breast exams

MIAMI (Reuters) - A 76-year-old man claiming to be a doctor went door-to-door in a Florida neighborhood offering free breast exams, and was charged with sexually assaulting two women who accepted the offer, police said on Thursday.

One woman became suspicious after the man asked her to remove all her clothes and began conducting a purported genital exam without donning rubber gloves, investigators said.

-snip-

At least two women, both in their 30s, let him into their homes and he fondled and sexually assaulted them, the investigators said.
___________________________________________________________________________

Now I'm sorry, I just have very little sympathy for a woman who would voluntarily allow a stranger to fondle their breasts and examine their vagina simply because he knocked on their door claiming to be a doctor.

If this makes me an asshole, I guess I am. But Jesus, people.

[KyuzoGator]

47. kick nt

[AlCzervik]

26. my husbands elderly uncle was scammed by readers digest for years

i did indeed feel bad for him, he sent them thousands of dollars in the last 10 years of his life and he got basically nothing but junk from them.

[Greyhound]

27. Probably. Your apparent inability to empathize with others is commonly

an indication of the all-to-prevalent attitude of "I've got mine, fuck you" held by most amerikans. Of course, I don't know you and this post may not be indicative of your real attitudes, but given the OP, this is my opinion.

[KyuzoGator]

29. To what extent are we responsible for protecting people from themselves?

I'm sorry, I'm an adult and I don't have time to babysit other adults who are capable of making their own decisions.

Sorry if that sounds Randian, but it's just the way I feel.

[pitohui]

34. since criminal fraud is against the law

i think we as a society have already decided that it is our responsibility to protect people who don't have the same intelligence or social skills from those people with higher intelligence or social skills who turn those gifts to evil

no one is asking you to babysit anyone, i believe we have law enforcement officers, state attorney general's offices, and the fbi to enforce the laws against fraud

we pay our taxes so we don't have to personally "babysit" the vulnerable, who in many cases are vulnerable because of their age, ill health, or lack of experience in the world as in this case of the young sheltered newlywed

if you object to such laws and to your taxes being spent in such a matter, it's your right to complain to your congressman

me, i'm extremely supportive of strong consumer enforcement

yes, i have known working con artists, but i am not proud to number them among my friends or acquaintances, i think they should be strongly encouraged to put their social and intellectual gifts to honest causes, and if they lack the conscience to do this (all the con artists i have known personally are clearly sociopaths) then we need teeth in our laws to force them to turn away from crime

it's pretty simple to me, deliberately cheat someone and you should either be forced to repay the money or you need to go to jail

there are many, many legal avenues for people who have the "sales" personality, you can make fantastic sums of money legally in sales w.out turning to dishonesty and high pressure so i have little sympathy w. those who defraud others

when you remove teeth from consumer protection laws, you are putting your sympathy on side of the sociopathic predator rather than the victim, an odd choice if you ask me

[KyuzoGator]

35. I'm for prosecuting scammers and educating consumers...all for it.

All I'm saying is don't expect me to shed many tears for people throwing their money at strangers.

[pitohui]

42. why shed tears when you can applaud them

god created the young fool so that the wise man could eat

:-)

[marions ghost]

44. well said!

if the average American knew exactly how UNprotected we are in ANY case of consumer fraud they would wake up in a hurry!

Our consumer protection laws are very weak in most states. Try to get a lawyer who will take such a case.

75 billion is lost annually to white collar crime and this type of fraud. (Compare that to 'street crime' stats, very low in comparison).

[Greyhound]

37. So, you've never made a mistake and been taken?

Am I my brothers keeper? No apologies are necessary, but maybe you could consider just how much help you've received from others and society in general, to get where you are. We are all in this together, and we will survive or not together. Ayn Rand was a seriously demented person that was twisted by the obscenity that was the USSR.

BTW, I am an agnostic leaning toward atheism, but JC had some good ideas. If only his followers would listen.

[KyuzoGator]

40. I am also an agnostic who follows Christ's teachings.

I strongly believe in helping my fellow man charitably and educating people so they don't get scammed. But when it comes to people voluntarily handing away their life's savings to someone they don't know...I have serious difficulty really feeling bad for them.

[Karmakaze]

33. The only scam victims I do not feel sorry for...

are the people whe get conned by those Nigerian email scams, or scams like them. Being conned into thinking you will get a free holiday for attending a sale pitch is one thing. Getting conned into handing over thousands of dollars in the pursuit of a share of millions in STOLEN money is another thing all together.


Typically, the Nigerian scammer is up front about the money they are offering being stolen. So the "victim" in this case was attempting (at least they believed they were attempting) to aid in laundering millions in stolen money. As far as I am concerned they deserve what they get!

Here is one other factor I don't think a lot of people have thought of in relation to those email scams - so many people fall for it, that it is clear that it wouldnt be hard to get someone to particpate in a REAL money laundering scheme. If I was Al Qaeda, that is how I would move money around!

[Booster]

36. Trust me - one day it will happen to you.

[KyuzoGator]

38. If someone steals from me, it will be against my will.

I am probably the most skeptical person you'll ever meet, especially when it comes to money.

[Rex]

41. No, means you see the world differently than other people.

Think we all do that.

[ElboRuum]

45. I'm actually kind of the same way...

:rant:

I share no sympathy for people that are duped by things as obvious as what you mentioned. Case in point being those "419" scams that were prevalent a few years ago that for a few measly tens of thousands of dollars you could help the rightful leader of some foreign country escape prosecution or incarceration or whatever, the result being a share of the gajillions stored in some bank account somewhere. I was shocked to hear that ANYONE was taken in by those things, so obvious is the scam that the klaxons in your head should be drowning out all other thoughts. But people have been taken in by these ham-handed scams, and not a trivial few either.


Maybe it's how I was raised which makes it easier for me to see these scams for what they are. I was raised to believe that there was no free lunch, no get rich quick scheme worth its salt, and people you don't know don't offer you things for nothing without there being some strings attached.

What's become clear to me is that there are people who think that there IS a free lunch, that real estate speculation can make you rich just like in those infomercials, not realizing that the person in the infomercial selling the "program" never made a dime off real estate speculation... he made it by selling this garbage to gullible stooges.

I'm going to guess that these people, if you took them to Vegas or Atlantic City would see evidence of a gambling addiction, even if they'd never gambled in their lives. Always convinced that some ridiculous risk will amount to a big payoff, that they'll be the 15th caller in the Rolling Stones ticket giveaway at the local radio station, that someone, somewhere, is looking for specifically for them because that person wants to shower them with gifts and prizes.

Where was this rant going, precisely? Hmm. Not really sure.

Oh, yeah. No sympathy. I'm with you on that one.

>>>>> Rant Concluded <<<<<