These are the Christians I wish to declare war on

[noahmijo]

With all the talk about the non-war against Christians and lately I have been taking some flak for sounding sympathetic to some sort of motion to force these Christians out of power take a look at this piece right here. It's about the Puritans.

Someone tell me seriously what separates your average so called God-fearing Christian of America from those that essentially established the base of these beliefs? (The Puritans)

The ONLY difference between these people and the Puritans is that thankfully it's against the law to burn an 8 year old girl alive.

And those of you who call yourselves Christians and demand apologies or whatever you know sorry not happening, you who claim no relation to the twisted barbarians who I am talking about right now either are not doing enough to reform them or sadly there's not enough of you in this country therefore consider yourselves nothing but infidels to the "true" WORD that the majority of American Christians believe in.

Religion and Nationalism is what has caused this country to rot from the inside. People know more about gay marriage and abortion than they do about the differences between Iraq and Afghanistan, than about the taxes levied on the American citizen for protecting Saudi Arabia (Oh it's part of the gas price always has been always will be) tell an American you think THEY the middle class worker or lower should get the huge tax break but...hey this other guy's talking about how no one who is not Christian should ever be put into office...that's what's important. Face the facts everyone" Bush won because Rove got the Christian Coalition involved and millions of Christian voters came out of the woodworks to support their savior. It was the EXACT same thing he had done to Ann Richards (Recall the putting of fliers on churchgoers cars which claimed Ann was an ally of the gay agenda)

Lastly get over yourselves. If I claimed to worship Osiris and that everyone must bow to His will you'd think of me as a little strange wouldn't you? Hey he apparently said he could be born again..even go so far as to give some divine meals to those in heaven....hey Jesus never promised that! Well how a mythology concerning a man who can electrocute you from a mountain (Zeus) any different than that of a story involving a snake talking some woman (who was made by the rib of a man btw) into eating a piece of fruit which screwed us all over?

More at link:

The rest here>>> http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/puritans.html

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[China_cat]

1. The Puritans were eventually uprooted from England

and settled in the Netherlands where they tried the same bullshit. Fortunately, the Dutch weren't impressed and weren't having it. They gave the Puritans a couple leaky boats and said 'don't let the door hit you'.

That's how WE got them. (England and Holland were smart...criminals to Australia, religious nuts here). Now, where do WE ship them.

[Sinti]

2. IMO the mainline Christians need to reclaim their church

or stop calling themselves mainline, and accept their place as a small faction. The silence is as deafening as the silence of non-Wahabi Muslims. They're allowing the extremists to define their religion in the modern age, without so much as a word of condemnation, at least not publicly. Quietly whispering, "we're not all like that" once a year or so is not exactly mounting a defense.

Calvinism has grown up into Dominionism, and it's growing quickly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism

BTW, companies that count 80% of our votes, Diebold and ES&S, were started by two brothers Bob and Todd Urosevich (dominionists themselves) and they got funding from a guy named Howard Ahmanson (another Dominionist). These folks would do away with the so-called "mainline" churches completely.

Two Voting Companies & Two Brothers Will Count 80% of U.S. Election -
http://www.ecotalk.org/UrosevichBrothers.htm

Quirky millionaire Howard Ahmanson Jr. is on a mission from God to stop gay marriage, fight evolution, defeat "liberal" churches -- and reelect George W. Bush.
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/01/06/ahmanson/index.html

These people clearly already have far too much power for the good of mankind.

[wryter2000]

4. Absolutely

My main beef with regular Christians is that they've sat silent for decades now while their faith was misused. They're starting to speak out now, but the horse ran out of the barn long ago.

As a result of their silence, it became an argument between Fristians and "Godless heathens," like me. The real argument should have been between people trying use religion as a club and as a tool to gain political power against everyone else.

[wryter2000]

3. Not to defend the Puritans

They did execute people for being witches, but I don't know that they burned anyone. Most of the people were hanged. Giles Corey was pressed to death before they could hang him.

I'm more interested in getting religion out of government than in driving the Faux Christians out of the country. I don't know how we'd do that anymore than the vigilantes can drive out all the illegal immigrants.

[Sinti]

5. We should keep them here, and put them back in their place

It's a big country, there's plenty of room. ;)

[Radio_Guy]

8. I'm more interested in getting religion out of government

So am I. This country would be so much better off if we had at minimum a balance of Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, etc. I'd prefer no Christians in any public office, but that won't happen.

[noahmijo]

10. Those Faux Christians you speak of ARE the government

and THEY are the ones responsible..hence the complete point of my first post...They must be driven away whether it be by voting them out of power or threatening to introduce their 18 year old boy to a girl who wasn't raised Christian.

[GOPBasher]

6. Apparently, you hated the aboltionist movement, the civil rights movement,

and plenty of other progressive causes, just because Christianity was a big part of them? Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., as just one of many, many examples, was a devout Christian. Apparently, you think he was an asshole? Do you think I'm an asshole, because I'm a Christian? (By the way, I attend the UCC church, which is very involved in progressive causes. And my pastor never mentions gay marriage, except to state how absurdly inconsequential it is in the face of ecological problems, poverty, disease, etc.)

[Sinti]

7. If only the "real" Christians were a whole lot louder at this time

in history. We could really use their support. Your FINE religion has been hijacked by extremists, unfortunately. I'm looking for that "lets roll" moment. Actually some of my best friends are Christians :P

[noahmijo]

9. You said it for me

Oh sure the Christian label has been slapped on alot of fantastic causes but not enough to overshadow the barbaric crimes that have had the same label as well.

So have you and your pastor talked lately about how to get more "Christians" to be like you two lately?

[GOPBasher]

20. We talk about that a lot. n/t

[GOPBasher]

12. That's true. It has been hijacked by extremists for the most part.

I hope that changes, and I'll everything I can to make it happen. I agree with you there. But I do like to point out that in the past, Christianity was part of the solution, not the problem. Nowadays, it's the other way, for the most part; but hopefully the pendulum with swing back around.

[Sinti]

15. There's no reason why the mainlines can't be part of the solution

once again in the future, just as they were in the past. They need to realize that they have more power to stand up to the Dominionist Christian movement than anyone else. They have the perceived moral authority, as it were. :)

[GOPBasher]

18. I wish the media would cover liberal mainline leaders as much

as they cover the nutcase right. Do you know the three major networks refused to air a commercial from the UCC church that promoted tolerance? Of course, they'll show Falwell every chance they get.

[Sinti]

21. All major media is owned by very few -- it's an evil cabal I tell ya n/t

[bunkerbuster1]

14. Yeah, why doesn't the UCC take out TV ads, and advocate

on behalf of progressive causes?

oh wait...

[GOPBasher]

19. They do. The networks just refused to show a commercial from

UCC that promotes tolerance. Also, we don't have nearly the money that the Souther Baptist Convention has. But with the little money it does have, the UCC church does give to plenty of charities and does a lot of missional work to alleviate poverty. (And it's not like the missions from the SBC, whose major goal is just converting people.)

[noahmijo]

11. Ya see? right there typical kneejerk reaction I get all the time here

I made it perfectly and abundantly clear that my problem is with the Puritan-Christians who make the majority in this country AND I have contempt for Christians who refuse to do enough to stand up to them.

I'll ask before I accuse-do you spend this much time throwing fire at Christians who follow the darker side (you know those great moments that should be relived as according to certain verses Leviticus for example) or is it just easier to flame me as someone who puts you into the victim's chair.

Face it you're not a victim, people like me ARE THE MINORITY I don't subscribe to ANY organized religion I think it is all hokey, and I have no problem with you if you do, hey if you believe in the supernatural that's your deal, but where I have a problem is when I have to be reminded by your averge joe that I'm a sinner or that I should feel ashamed and strange and different because I don't look to a supernatural being to give me strength.

Using such beliefs for good the way Jesus supposedly did is good, but right now just like Mark Twain said "If Jesus was alive today he would not be Christian"

[GOPBasher]

16. To answer your question, yes, I actually spend much MORE time

bashing the Christian Right than I do the atheistic left. But I hate when anyone on either side continues to draw such a wedge between us. You and I have much, much more in common than I do with the Christian Right. My Christianity teaches me that we should help the poor, be good stewards of God's creation (environmentalists) and spread wealth around, rather than being greedy, gluttonous consumers. And I do believe in separation of church and state. And I'm for gay rights. So why do you have a problem with me?

[noahmijo]

22. I don't now you're hero keep up the good work

If only we could get about 25 million more people just like you.

[PublicWrath]

13. I don't think you're an *sshole for being Christian

but I do think the wrong people seem to be speaking for Christianity.
I saw something hideous last night:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

You'll notice that the sign #7 down has tanks, helicopters, rifles and a bomb on it. At the top it says "Support President Bush". At the bottom it says "Trust Jesus". I'm not even a Christian, yet I find the juxtaposition of Jesus with military hardware appalling. I'm sure this kind of thing doesn't appeal to you, either. As a non-Christian, I can't really hope to influence the mainstream churches to oppose people like Robertson and Falwell. I hope more Christians like you will undertake this effort.

[GOPBasher]

17. I agree with you. I hope we do.

There are a few signs that the pendulum may start swing back around. There was a petition signed by 86 evangelical leaders to undertake an effort to combat global warming. One problem is the media. They have people like Jerry Falwell on TV everday, but they never have someone like Jim Wallis. Wallis is a very liberal Christian, but have you even heard of him? If not, it's because the media doesn't expose him to you. That's one problem, as I see it.

[Raksha]

23. The Puritans are the direct ideological ancestors of the Dominionists

aka Christian Reconstructionists. I almost said "spiritual ancestors," except that the word "spiritual" is incongruous in this context. Specifically, the modern theocrats are the ideological heirs of the Calvinists who first settled this country after being kicked out of England and then Holland. Where they are associated with a mainstream church, it is inevitably a Calvinist denomination like the Dutch Reformed or the Presbyterians, although I don't believe mainstream Presbyterians are as fanatical as their predecessors.

At the time the Constitution was written, these people were very much opposed to the separation of Church and State because it meant a permanent loss of status FOR THEM. That's why they've been fighting the Constitution and especially the Bill of Rights ever since.

In his book "Cruel and Unusual: Bush/Cheney's New World Order" Mark Crispin Miller does a great job of putting the Dominionist movement into historical perspective. I've learned a lot from that book and highly recommend it to everyone.

[hfojvt]

24. as a guy with puritan ancestry

I kinda like the puritans. They were honest, industrious, studious, and decent neighbors. "their spiritual bond made them sympathetic to each other's needs"

It is easy to focus on the witchcraft and say that that one incident defines them, but they also founded Harvard and Yale were key in the Revolutionary and Civil wars and were ancestors of Emerson and the Boston liberal tradition.

They are not the ancestors of today's fundies, which have more of a southern tradition.

[Raksha]

25. Nathaniel Hawthorne was from Puritan stock too,

but completely repudiated that way of thinking. He was a direct descendant of one of the main prosecutors at the Salem witch trials and wrote "The Scarlet Letter" as a kind of expiation.

I agree with you that the Dominionists should be distinguished from garden-variety fundies, who are mostly from the Southern Baptist tradition. For one thing, they have no use for "the Rapture" even though they use that myth to distract and deceive the sheep. Tim LaHaye is a Dominionist, and his "Left Behind" books are pure snake oil. He doesn't belief that stuff for one minute! After all, what would be the point of trying to rule the world if you might be raptured out of it any minute?

[knitter4democracy]

26. How do you know we're not?

"All in all, if you think of yourself a Christian next time you go to church start being like your Jesus and start rallying up the other followers to promote a message of truth, justice and peace and once and for all work to kick the crooked money grubbing bastards out FOR GOOD as it's been about 350 years and you haven't done so entirely yet."

I do. Our priest does. We have many strong Dems who pass around books, do phone banking, and do what they can to talk with independents and moderates in our church.

Look, they've been building this movement for decades. We're just getting into the trenches with them, and we're doing what we can. It's going to take time, though.

I totally understand where you're coming from. I went to an evangelical college and know too much and am still seriously angry about what I saw there. I stay in contact with few from there, as they didn't handle our conversion to the Eastern Orthodox Church very well (both my hubby and I went to that school). We keep talking, though, and working on all we know.

Knowing their language and their issues helped when I phone-banked for Kerry. I took on all the evangelicals, and I even made a few think of changing their position. They may not have voted for Kerry, but they had to think.

I often dream of getting a chance to talk in one of the mega-churches around here, but I know they wouldn't even let me in the door. *sigh*

[noahmijo]

27. You too are my hero then. Like I said we need 25 million more just like

you to offset the 20-30 million Christian Coalition nuts who claim that they have over 100 million members (Which I seriously think is closer to about 20 mill)

[knitter4democracy]

28. They don't want to admit the turnover rate.

There's a lot of turnover in those churches, and the followers go from one to another, looking for a better place.

It's hard to get through to them, though. There are many roadblocks to anyone who's been there and left.