The abortion debate is about whether we trust women's judgement

[gollygee]

it isn't specifically about abortion. Almost all anti-abortionists believe that in some cases abortion is ok - ie rape, incest, health considerations. But they don't trust the women involved to make the right choice. The choice of abortion isn't awful enough to be NEVER used under any circumstances so it isn't that abortion is murder. It's that women aren't responsible? smart? dependable? whatever enough to make a judgement call for their particular situation, so they believe it all has to be specifically written up in laws.

I just had this epiphany a few minutes ago.

[wtmusic]

1. Well

I can already hear the response to that one.

"Could we trust Charles Manson's judgement?"

"Could we trust Ted Bundy's?"

(No flames please -- I don't support this point of view)

[niyad]

2. that is quite an epiphany, but doesn't go quite far enough. the reality

is that at the heart of each and every anti-choice argument lies a deep and profound hatred for women. whether they are using the bible, god, the church, the sperm donor, the fetus or the state, each and every argument states that some one, or some THING, is more important than the women. it is just that simple.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

5. I agree

It's hardly about "life" or "right to life" or "choice" or any of those fine-sounding academic terms. It is about punishing women, it is about controlling women, it is about hating/fearing women.

In my long, long life, I've seen it over and over.

[wtmusic]

7. Hmm

Arguing that something is more important than the women hardly equates to a "deep and profound hatred".

I don't believe that. It's a control issue, which manifests itself in many areas of the RW psyche.

[niyad]

11. there isn't much difference between hatred and control for these people,

and I would wager you have not been on the receiving end of their hatred, as those of us who deal with them on a regular basis have.
have you received death threats from anti-choicers? I have. have you been physically assaulted by these people? I have. have you received anthrax in the mail, as over 500 clinics have? has someone you love been killed by one of them, or wounded? if you think that isn't hatred, then you must have a very different view of it than many of us.

[wtmusic]

15. They hate women/clinics/agencies which promote

choice. Not women in general. I would wager that the reason you got a death threat was you are openly involved with one of these.

[niyad]

45. you just do NOT get it, do you? you will twist things in your mind so you

don't have to face the awful fact that this is indeed about HATRED FOR WOMEN. it's okay for me to receive death threats because I am involved with a clinic, that isn't about hatred of me? it's okay for me to be assaulted by anti-choicers RIGHT IN FRONT OF POLICE, because it isn't about me. it's okay to murder and maim doctors and clinic workers because it isn't about them? un-freaking believable.

[TahitiNut]

25. "It's a control issue"

People who live with a deep sense of insecurity - who don't even take responsibility for their own choices - typically obsess about 'control' over the actions of others. It's a twist in our psyche - one that makes the dysfunction of codependency and various addictions so common today. In projecting their own "fuck you; I got mine" attitudes on others, they are ruled by the fear of scarcity (ignoring abundance) and being treated by others as they would treat them. It's a "Fool's Gold Rule" - Others will do unto me as I'd do unto them. For many, that's enough to live in terror of justice and equity.

Codependency is all about the abdication of personal responsibility and obsession over controlling others. It's based in a deep-seated lack of self-esteem - a failure to "please daddy (or mommy)." Such psyches are stuck in the subjugation to parentalism - we are lousy parents.

[wtmusic]

35. Xlnt post

more and more we are exposed to this phenomenon of "subjugation to parentalism" -- well put :thumbsup:

[gollygee]

14. The person I was talking to doesn't hate women

and I thought it was that he truly believed that life was a magic thing that begins instantaneously when an egg is fertilized.

But then as we talked more it became obvious that abortion is OK in some cases. So I tried to figure out why, and the discussion kept coming back to whether the women would make a good choice. He recognized that it's a hard choice and thought that they might choose unwisely.

It's patriarchal, that's for sure. It seems to center around this idea that a man has to be involved in order to ensure that an abortion is *really* needed. But I don't think it's about hatred as much as just thinking that we are less and are unable to make really big decisions.

[EFerrari]

16. At some point, being oblivious amounts to hatred. nt

[waiting for hope]

3. My thought is that most anti-choice

activists think women who have abortions are using them as birth control.....pleeaase, what woman would actually use this as birth control? The risk to her own life much less the pain and the shame that goes with it. If protection during the act failed, 9 out of 10 women feel it was their fault. There have been numerous studies done on the whys and the two main reasons are either the partner is a no show or abusive or the woman can not afford to have a child, both very valid reasons.

[gollygee]

21. How do you define "using abortion as birth control?"

I've asked people that too. Really, abortion is birth control in every instance becasue it stops a birth from happening. The issue is whether women use it as birth control for a reason good enough for them. It's like if there were a board of men women could go before and plead their case for an abortion so they could approve each one if they thought the reason was good enough, abortion would be fine. The problem is letting women have the right to make that choice, not the fact that there is a choice.

It's sick and disturbing.

[Whoa_Nelly]

4. It's more than trusting a woman's judgement

It's about treating women as second-class citizens who must be controlled. It's also about rolling back any kind of foward motion that women have been fighting for over many decades in terms of equality in all areas of life.

We have a patriarchal society. That's where all this stems from. Women are still struggling to be on equal footing with men when it comes to personal rights.

[shain from kane]

6. Chattel. n/t

[johnnie]

8. I disagree

If it was all about treating women like second class citizens, then we men who support a woman's right to choose wouldn't be treated like second class citizens for our support of that.

[noamnety]

23. I get what you're saying, however

Second class citizen is one who doesn't have the same rights to self-determination as other people.

Having said that, I do believe that guys get a lot of crap for being feminists, a LOT of crap, and I don't want to minimize that or downplay how important it is for men to participate in fighting for women's rights ... or, for that matter, how important it is for ALL people to fight for ALL people's rights. That's a solidarity - humanity issue.

The crap you're getting doesn't negate the second class citizen theory, though. It's more like getting harassed for fraternizing with the enemy, or like racists getting upset that white people are being too friendly with black/Iraqi/whatever people. Bottom line is that they think the other people have second class status, and they resent you for not recognizing that and behaving appropriately.

[johnnie]

30. Yes, I am afraid you are right

I am a person that tries to look at all people on one side of an issue as equals, and a lot of people seem to want to look at it only from their point of view. At the same time it is frustrating to be lumped in with the other group of people just because of my race, sex or any other things I may be.

Thank you for responding with an intelligent post. :hi:

[moobu2]

17. Yep, I agree

it’s all about the second class citizenship thing.

It isn’t about “the right to life” at all. They just want to place women in a special class, one where women cant make their own personal decisions. Strip all the crap away and that's what it boils down to.

[gollygee]

24. Yeah but the reason we're second class citizens

is because they think we aren't smart enough or responsible enough or whatever to have good judgement and make sound choices. It's circular but I think that's the root of it.

If there were a law that a group of men were in every town that decided which abortions were ok and which weren't ok, most supposed abortion opponents would probably be ok with that. They'd trust the judgement of a group of men, but they don't trust us.

[EFerrari]

9. Excuse me? I need YOUR TRUST to get healthcare for MY body?

In what Universe?

Is this DU?

[gollygee]

18. Huh?

are you talking to me? I don't think you understand my post. I am very very very pro-choice. I'm talking about the position I've heard from others. I dont' think they're even abortion opponents so much as thinking women aren't trustworthy.

[EFerrari]

20. Right. I was responding to that line of thinking.

Who are "they" or anyone for that matter, to dictate my health choices?

/grammar

[gollygee]

22. Oh good I was worried I'd written very badly

and that you thought that was my opinion! ACK!

[EFerrari]

26. No, sorry if I wasn't clear. And I think you're right.

There is a movement to take our bodies out of our possesion. It's insane and we can't allow it to gain an inch.

:)

[TahitiNut]

10. "the right choice"???

:puke: :puke:

[gollygee]

27. The scary thing is

I really think, after talking about this with a lot of supposed abortion opponents, is that they sometimes think abortion *is* the right choice. It isn't the specific choice, it's who is making the choice that concerns them. I really think it has nothing to do with the definiton of life, as I used to think. Every supposed abortion opponent I've talked to anyway thinks abortion is OK at least sometimes. They just think women aren't equipped to know when.

So what I'm getting at is that I think if they had their way they would not just tell women when we can't have an abortion, they also might very well tell us when we had to have one.

[PublicWrath]

42. 'Woman as vessel" would certainly tend to suggest such a scenario.

[niyad]

12. "if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament"

[EFerrari]

13. You bet. n/t

[moobu2]

19. lol it would be a constitutional right!

[SammyWinstonJack]

28. If men could get pregnant, there would be an abortion clinic next

to every Jiffy Lube in this Country.

[noamnety]

29. I think it's more than that

increasingly, groups in power are openly saying that it's not okay to get an abortion even in cases of rape or incest or endangerment of life. (The unanimous passing of the Michigan GOP abortion position demonstrates that.)

That, combined with the growing movement to restrict access to birth control - sometimes openly stated as a goal on anti-abortion websites, pushes it beyond just trusting a woman's judgment, and shoves it more in the direction of forcing women to stay home and bear children, making women more dependent upon men.

Poor men, that sexual revolution must have been hard on them, what with our opening discussing among ourselves what we weren't willing to put up with anymore, and becoming financially independent and all.

[gollygee]

31. I think a lot of that is

that it's like, "If you can't be trusted when to make a choice and you won't give up the choice to someone else, the choice will be taken away completely."

[EFerrari]

32. But that whole argument depends upon my choice

being decided by committee.

Sorry. Next time I see a bill up pushing castration, I'll consider putting my body on the block too.

(Ack, the visuals!)

[ThomWV]

33. What Its About Is Man's Dominion Over Woman

That and nothing more.

[gollygee]

34. As I said in another post

The reason they think we're second class citizens is because they think we aren't smart enough or responsible enough or whatever to have good judgement and make sound choices. It's circular but I think that's the root of it.

If there were a law that a group of men were in every town that decided which abortions were ok and which weren't ok, most supposed abortion opponents would probably be ok with that. They'd trust the judgement of a group of men, but they don't trust us.

So yes, I agree that it's about men's dominion over women *because* we can't be trusted to make big choices.

[omega minimo]

38. The issue is protecting the rights of women to autonomy & privacy

established in the Constitution and upheld in the Supreme Court.

It's not about whether abortion is right or wrong or whether women will "make the right choice."

Next time you're talking with one of these folks, really blow em away and say "I don't know what choice a women might make and it's none of my business. I respect her right to make her own private medical decisions in private."



"So I tried to figure out why, and the discussion kept coming back to whether the women would make a good choice. He recognized that it's a hard choice and thought that they might choose unwisely."



"It's patriarchal, that's for sure. It seems to center around this idea that a man has to be involved in order to ensure that an abortion is *really* needed. But I don't think it's about hatred as much as just thinking that we are less and are unable to make really big decisions."

Whether you call it "hatred" or "ignorance" or "bigotry" the fact is, these attitudes depend on PEOPLE THINKING THEIR PERSONAL OPINIONS ARE SOMEHOW RELEVANT TO WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO WITH THEIR BODIES.

Why do they think they have that right to judge and inflict their opinions? BECAUSE IT IS ABOUT WOMEN'S BODIES, NOT MEN'S.

Respect for women's rights to liberty, health and privacy is all this has EVER been about.

[ThomWV]

40. Doesn't Matter

It doesn't matter how smart you are or if you are responsible enough or tall enough or thin enough or short enough or fat enough or young enough or old enough or enough of anything else.

In the eyes of the extreme God made man to have dominion over the earth and all things and then he made woman and buddy, as far as they are concerned, woman is just another beast of the field. For the lunatic fringe man must control every aspect of woman, who's evil is well hidden under the guise of comelyness, and there is no argument to be made on some woman's merit before the will of God.

That is what I mean by man having dominion over woman. Those filthy bastards believe it.

[niyad]

46. genesis 2 is about the ONLY story where the male is created first.

in most mythology, and in biology, the FEMALE is first (all life begins female, a fact that these people hope everyone forgets)

[Arkansas Granny]

36. If you missed the April 14 program NOW on PBS, you should

check it out. It dealt with South Dakota's new law and the people behind it. You can read the full transcript here:

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcriptNOW215_full.html

These people seem to think that they are making these laws to give women freedom from having to make a choice. It's an eye opener.

[mrcheerful]

37. Bottom line anti womens choice people are knuckle dragging throw backs

to the stone age. The same ones that want to take womens choice away also believe that man lords over women. Its their duty to tell women how to live life because after Eve tempted Adam they can't be trusted, its right there in that living book (as they call it). They also are the same ones that want to decide when sex is consensual and when its rape, notice how anti choice ranks swelled after the law became you can't force, talk into or in any way other then the woman telling you they want sex, even if shes married to your stone age behind. They believe women should stay at home raising their kids,cleaning their houses, cooking their dinners and women better drop they are doing to bring the man of the house a beer, after all he worked hard to provide for them. These same anti choice people basically want a law saying women are to stay at home barefoot pregnant and ready to screw at a drop of his hat. Whats even worse is some of these stone agers have their women conviced thats right.

[Mr_Spock]

39. It's a matter of freedom to me

You are either free to control your own body or you aren't.

I'm for freedom. Freedom is free.

[electron_blue]

41. I used to think that. Not anymore. Now I'm convinced abortion is one of

the biggest tools in the class war to keep down the lower and middle classes. If you control someone's reproduction, especially forcing them to have many children they don't want, then you control virtually everything about their future. Think about it.

[PublicWrath]

43. The Vatican's been thinking along those lines for centuries. n/t

[freestyle]

44. Katharine MacKinnon wrote about this a while ago.

A decent chunk of the opposition to choice is an idea that women should not be trusted with life and death decisions. For most anti-choice people, it really comes down to control over women, no matter what other reasons they may give. I still like the bumper stickers that say "don't like abortion, don't have one."