Who'd have thought that Craigslist would have been the last straw to my career?

[WileEcoyote]

Around Sept., 1984 (1984!). At 29 years of age I started running small ads in local paper for handyman services. i wasn't very experienced but was cheap and willing to do loathsome tasks. Would have preferred a regular construction job to learn from, but this was the Reagan era: No job training.

To my surprise I stayed in business! Making just enough to barely pay the rent to my capitalist parasite landlord. But at least breaking even.

A year or two later I studied for my California contractors license, got it and bought ad space in the local Yellow pages. This brought in more regular reliable work sources. Including at least two general contractors and a property management company which kept me busy most the year.

Now it is 1988 and again to my surprise, I was not only makin it but doing well enough to start a family.


1995 - 1999. For some odd reason new business phone calls became scarcer. Didn't know the reason but since I still had one regular account left I didn't fret. Still concerned me because if this last account dropped I was cooked.


By 2000 I was seeing periods of time that my happy go lucky business was on the verge of collapse. When my regular account wasn't busy hardly any calls came in from elsewhere. Where was the business?


Answer: Consumers were now turning to Craigslist instead of my little Yellow pages ad. Never-the-less I persevered. I dropped prices for new business as much as I could without giving my craft away.

2007 - 2009. To lower expenses more I dropped my yellow pages ad. Wasn't getting any calls and cost me three grand a year. Started advertising on craigslist myself. I really was giving my work away. Every job was a "fire sale"...

Analyzing the C/L listings I noticed that the same companies were coming up under multiple listings. "Spamming" their ads. I tried to compete with these shysters by kind of doing the same thing myself. Running multiple ads. Didn't want to but was on the verge of starvation.


2009: Craigslist expels some multiple ad posters by insisting that "Service trade" and other listings create C/L accounts. I sign up for my own account using the same phone number I'd had for years.



April 2010: Craigslist refuses to honor any accounts (either existing or new) that use cell phones as a basis for running or continuing any accounts. I complain but they do not return my e-mails.

Long after they helped ruined my business by making my Yellow pages ad worthless I can't even advertise on Craigslist.


I don't completely blame Craigslist. Surely Immigration and the economy played equal elements behind my failures. Besides C/L that is. Am trying hard but I'm 55 years old now. My health is pretty good but who wants to grind it out for sparse jobs at 1/3 the earnings i got back in 1988? Back when I was so wet behind my ears trade knowledge wise that it scares me to think about some of the jobs I used to do. Am far better qualified for the work that I do when compared to when i started out in 1984. However work is very scarce today. So in other words back 25 years ago I could do mediocre quality work and expect to get paid better than today when everything I do is top notch.

Instead of supporting a family my wife and kids left me years ago. Not making enough money to support their materialistic tastes. Today for me it's food stamps, welfare and the rare handyman fix it job. Once in a while I get a paid musical gig (oughta see my resume!).

I barely cover the rent on an apartment as big as a matchbox. And who wants to hire a mid fifties man long used to making almost a living wage? Not when there are ten millions of out of work people here in California alone. All able and ready to work for peanuts.

Besides Craigslist and the economy immigration has been a disaster. Time to end all immigration either legal or otherwise. but it won't happen. Probably too late as it is. But Craigslist really did drive the last nail in the coffin. All the business I get is word of mouth now. And no one hardly is spending money due to the recession.

[Oregone]

1. "Besides Craigslist and the economy immigration has been a disaster"

NAFTA (and other free trade deals) was a disaster that crippled the economy and caused a lot of immigration. Source your anger appropriately.

[Tempest]

3. He's blaming immigrants when he should be blaming employers

I get so tired of the ignorant scapegoating immigrants.

[sharp_stick]

5. In a round about way

he is blaming employers, the ones that so willingly hire a bunch of people for cash because it's nice and cheap.

[WileEcoyote]

7. You don't make your living in the trades

No one is scapegoating Brown people here. We are pointing out that unrestricted immigration has helped ruin the American economy.

As Edward Abbey said: "Conservatives love their cheap labor and Liberals love their cheap cause. neither side would have them (immigrants) live in their own home. Not in their homes"

Deny this at the expense of reality.

[Oregone]

9. A lot of things have helped ruin the American economy

Some of those things also increased immigration

Some illegal immigration has also fueled a rampantly expanding economy for some time (until the bubble popped)

There are a lot of fights to pick here, so be careful not to stand in the most convenient, short-sighted corner

[WileEcoyote]

10. Some times people can't say the word "shit"

even when their mouths are full of it.

Immigration KILLED my earnings.

[Oregone]

12. "Immigration KILLED my earnings"

More aptly, it was illegal brown Mexican immigrants.

You are now showing your true colors, spot on. Put them on your dart board.

Next time, don't beat around the bush with your Craigslist bullshit. Get right to the point.

[Downtown Hound]

25. No shit

This whiny douchebag here is lamenting the fact that he has to get a land line to stay in business, and not only manages to blame immigrants for that, but is actually stupid enough to think that by not having a landline he's somehow being persecuted.

Ever hear of business expenses, NotSoBrightCoyote? Many business expenses trump the meager cost you'd have to pay for a landline, but that doesn't stop you from making yourself into the world's whiniest victim beacuse you don't have one.

Oh, and by the way, I made my living as a contractor for two years, and the idea of blaming immigrants for my troubles never even entered my mind once. I always got business, because I did a good job, I made connections with my clients, and, oh yeah, I had a mother fucking land line!

[frazzled]

11. I deny that

Look, I come from a family of immigrants. My grandparents on both my mother and father's sides came to this country with the clothes on their backs. One set opened a little corner grocery; the other side opened an auto parts business. They all spoke broken Engish. Their sons and daughters all went to college. They are part of what made America great.

We've heard rants against immigrants in every generation: the Irish who worked the docks, the Chinese who built the railways, the Poles, the south Asians, the southeast Asians. They were all taking jobs, ruining the economy. Of course, they didn't.

We should be way beyond hearing this again. I dare say your family were probably immigrants. If you are not a full-blood Native America, they surely were.

[WileEcoyote]

14. When you ancestors arrived the boat wasn't full yet

However the craft today is not only swamped but leaking.

We can't play "let's pretend this is 1915 again".

[frazzled]

26. Its not full today

We're fine, except for the xenophobia.

[MUAD_DIB]

33. Now that is not really factual.

In 1900 the US population was under 100 million. Presently it is over 300 million.

A great many jobs that used to be in the US aren't coming back, and the recent immigrants will work well below what should be considered a living wage: thus killing the poster's profession.

Calling the guy a xenophobe is not only inaccurate, but is not constructive.

[MUAD_DIB]

32. There is a not so subtle difference.

The difference is that labor in the good old days was dirt cheap, but so was pretty much everything else: from food to land.
Immigrants built this country from the inside and the corporations of the time paid them poorly for it. They were, however, able to live on what they earned to a degree. What they earned went back into the economy: to your grandfather's grocery as an example. It was a cyclical economy built on a sustainable model.

So I'll skip all the history of the unions and fair wages. I don't want to preach.

The difference today is that labor (all collars) has been under assault from the corporations for the past 35 years, and for the most part the labor is outsourced.

The immigrant pool both legal and illegal will work for peanuts. A contractor will hire a pool of (ask no questions) day laborers, pay them low wages all hush hush, and keep the rest. He won't hire local help when he can pay somebody else Walmart wages.

It sucks and is pretty unfair. I'm wondering when my field will totally implode from the same statistics as a native born contractor in the states.

Ignoring the facts doesn't help either. This is a different playing field from the 1910s.

[frazzled]

36. The OP wants to ban all LEGAL immigration

Here's what was said: Time to end all immigration either legal or otherwise.

It's racist, it's xenophobic, it's wrong. Not all immigrants fit your stereotype of day laborers. Some open restaurants and businesses. Some are actually doctors and engineers. They come from every country in the world. It doesn't even apply to all Hispanic immigrants.

I'm done with this hateful nationalist/supremacist thread. It doesn't belong on DU.

[MUAD_DIB]

37. Really? I would have never imagined that immigrants might open a restaurant

or that they would be doctors or *engineers. I didn't know most restaurateurs/engineers would be competing for contractor/trade jobs.
:sarcasm:

I didn't see the last part of the OP where it was time to end all immigration, so I can understand your frustration, but I also understand how some people are getting hammered in this economy by getting outbid. What he wrote was silly.

Firstly, its not a steryotype that day laborers hang around waiting for contractors to pick them up for the work. That's just factual. I can drive 2 miles to a park in Somerville MA and hire some people on the low$$ right now. I have seen first hand how contractors do that all the time. So these contractors are the problem. The other side of the problem are the people hiring the contractors are the same people that don't want to pay shit for anything.

You knew I was referring to day laborers, but thanks for flying off the handle. I also never mentioned Hispanics. There are Irish day laborers around these parts as well.

And, as usual, another DUer runs away with a bruised ego: jumping to conclusions. Seemingly it is an Olympic sport around here.


You know, I understand that people still want to emigrate to the USA and live/work here. That's great, and I welcome them. I also understand that illegals want a better life for their family as well.

I do not agree with either corporations or individuals using illegal immigrants for labor. It is an unfair/illegal practice.

On one hand DUers criticize the corporations for it, but on the other hand they want to turn a blind eye or ignore the porous border in the south east US.

[MUAD_DIB]

42. Edit: South west...

[rfranklin]

6. The same thing has happened in the photography business...

It used to be that you had to pay for advertising in Yellow Pages, newspapers or magazines. Then you were looked at as less than professional if you didn't have a place of business. I have seen brides hiring photographers that they got from Craig's List and met in Starbucks. (Where do you find this guy later?)

Fee advertising and no overhead, cheap digital cameras combined with thousands of people out of work has turned my decent living into a loser.

[Oregone]

8. You got screwed because of all the illegal Mexicans with 12.2 megapixel cameras and editing software

[rfranklin]

22. No the legal residents did the job just fine...thank you very much...

I was relating it to his experience with advertising in print media and the internet.

And actually there are a lot of European illegals who are in my business and not paying any taxes.

[Oregone]

23. I fully understand the problems with advertising mediums

Its just, once you scrape below the surface, that isn't what this is about:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=367&topic_id=26236&mesg_id=26246

[MUAD_DIB]

43. I know shooters that would do executive photography and the like.

They're doing weddings now. Their good, but they aren't finding the work in their area any longer. I know photographers who have given up.

Frankly the creative biz isn't what it used to be.

I know a creative that farms out work to India instead of paying a freelancer in the US. I'm sure said creative cut costs and makes more money that way. Sad.

[grasswire]

2. I'm sorry to hear it.

There is another list for posting reliable handyman jobs. I'll try to remember it and post it here.

Oh! It's angieslist.com.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. My heart goes out to you...

I wish I knew what to say or do to help...

I did the one thing I could do...

You now have a star.

I hope things get better for you...

:hug:

[drm604]

13. I don't understand why you can't post on Craigslist any more.

I've run my resume (with personal info removed) on there repeatedly without even having a CL account. All you need is an email address, and you can get all the free addresses you want from Yahoo and Gmail. I've gotten a number of responses and both my current and previous jobs from there.

[WileEcoyote]

15. Not in the service trades

Service trade ads require a land based phone. Effectively removing me from posting on C/L.

The bastards!

[Oregone]

16. Get a land based phone like all the brown people you think ruined your job

:rofl:

Maybe their investment into a land based phone it the reason they stole business from you.

[99 Percent Sure]

18. Ignore the distorted comments; I get what you are saying.

Listen, you can get a VoIP "landline" pretty cheap--there's Vonage, Magic Jack, etc. I've got T-Mobile@Home for $9.99 a month. Since you obviously have a 'puter, you're not quite out in the cold.

As posted above, angieslist.com is popular now too, and gets a lot of hits.

As for the other--I have no answer since I'm the same age as you, and I'm encountering similar ageism issues.

[Downtown Hound]

24. So it's easier for you to go on a tirade about immigration

and basically feel sorry for yourself and turn yourself into a victim instead of just paying an extra $30 a month for a land based phone line?

Buck the fuck up and stop bitching. Get a land line or shut up. Jesus, the self-pity of some people never fails to amaze me. No one really cares about your anti-immigrant tirade, which is really just a platform for you to shift your own failure as a businessman (unwilling to pay $30 a month for new clients) and make it somebody's else's fault.

Grow the fuck up and stop blaming all your problems on immigrants.

[drm604]

27. How do they know if your phone is land based?

How do they know if your phone is land based or not?

Maybe the solution is to get a land based phone. It may be worth the cost if it gets you enough work.

Do you have a friend with a land based phone who can take messages for you?

[Oregone]

28. I had friends until the immigrants came and all took their places

Now all my new friends want to do on game night is talk about soccer and drink Tecate.

:shrug:

[earth mom]

17. Simple Solution: Get a land based phone line.

My land based line only costs me $25 bucks a month.

It seems you don't want to solve your problem if the only thing holding you back is getting a cheap old fashioned land line.

[Oregone]

21. That would take away their ability to rail against immigrants

Its better to be unemployed with a cause than keep yourself fed without one.

[Downtown Hound]

19. I'm sorry you're struggling, but why don't you just get a land based phone line?

It's not that expensive and you'd make back the costs of it with one or two hours of work. Think of it as a business expense.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Downtown Hound]

31. You show a little fucking respect

Show some respect to your fellow man that came from God knows what kind of awful conditions back home and came to this country and worked their asses off for shit wages to make a better life for themselves. It's not their fault that you're in the predicament you are. That blame goes to rich white people for ruining the economy and yourself for not keeping up with the technology involved in running a successful business.

And I'm sorry you're broke. Maybe you should have kept up to date on your business and gotten a landline before you go to this point? Maybe you could ditch your cell phone and get a landline instead, and then you wouldn't have to pay two costs? Just how much thought and energy have you put into solving this problem in a manner that didn't involve taking the easy way out and blaming immigrants for your problems?

And guess what? YOU didn't teach me shit about contracting. Want to know who did? A Mexican immigrant.

[WileEcoyote]

34. You know what the fucking rents are here?

I can't afford to move to another state. Or even out of the bay area. Locked into this setting where jobs are few and far between.

And yes immigration (both legal and not) put a huge dent in my earnings. A cumulative load piled on for a decade and a half at least.

As for "keeping up with the technology"?

This is a used computer I found at garage sale and am damn lucky to have it.

[Downtown Hound]

35. Actually, I live in Santa Rosa

Rents are high here too. Not as high as the Bay Area, but then again, the wages are lower here. How are you here on the internet? How much is your internet connection costing you? Could you lose the internet for a few months and get a landline instead? You can go online at any public library for net access, and then have enough money left over to pay your landline costs.

As I said before, just how much time and effort have you spent on solving this problem instead of just whining about brown people taking your jobs? I'm sorry, but I've been in tight spots before too. I was even homeless for a brief period a few years back. And you're NEVER going to convince me that any of it was the fault of immigrants.

I don't mean to appear uncompassionate, but you're not helping your case any by blaming immigrants. Do you need help in getting a landline? I'd be happy to help you in any way I can, but this scapegoating of immigrants has to end.

[WileEcoyote]

38. I'm not whining about "Brown people"

I only learned just last night that craigslist has eliminated cellphone users and prepaid phone accounts from advertising in their service trades column.

Please everyone stop race baiting this issue!

Anyone read where i said: Spread unions around the world instead of allowing immigration?

I am against all forms of immigration, legal or otherwise until we can solve our own problems here and export real power to workers around the world.

[Downtown Hound]

40. Spread unions around the world?

Yeah, I'm sure that will go over real well in all those highly repressive third world countries where most of our neat little goods are made. Not only will their own governments not allow it, U.S. corporations won't either.

Immigration is here to stay, so deal with it. Now, do you want help in obtaining a landline or not? I love it how you casually reject all of my suggestions as to how you might attain one, and then say nothing of my offer to help, but hey, you're still here whining. If at any point, you decide to stop whining and do something about your present situation instead of blaming immigrants, I think you'll find that there are way more solutions than you ever realized. All you got to do is quit playing the blame game and start taking charge.

In fact, on second thought, forget about my previous offer. You're not worth the help. It's obvious to me that you're not really interested in being helped or in finding real solutions to your problem. I really have a hard time believing that you can't find some way to cough up the cash for a landline and that it's all immigrants' fault. You really have no relatives or friends that will help you out with $50 or $20 here or there? That's all it would take, but no, you'd rather come on a liberal message board and blame immigrants. Of all the possible solutions to your problem, allow me to tell you that that was probably the stupidest one you could have come up with.

You're just another closed minded racist looking for a scapegoat.

[TheMadMonk]

44. Immigration is a great part of the issue. Even if it is not the root cause.

Sub-contracting labour hire allows the big boys to cry ignorance even though anyone with the mathematical accuity to make change can do the sums and know that they are paying less per worker than is mathematically possible if the subcontractor is taking a minimal fair cut AND paying all requisite fees and taxes. The sub-contractor being nothing more than Jose O'Malley, his truck (or condemned schoolbus), a phone number (9 times out of ten answered by a wife) and a registered business name, does what he does, get's busted very occasionally and resurects under a new name, leaving behind an empty shell that owns nothing but a fine that will never be paid. The labourers taking cash from the same bloke at the end of every day don't care that the name he has on his business card is not same name that was on it when he picked them up that morning.

Outside of certain forms of prositution and other already illegal business models, no employer can force a person to accept a given wage, on the flip side he will pay the absolute minimum amout that anyone is willing to accept.

And you as the buyer who fails to ask the builder if he pays decent wages to his drywall subcontractor and insist it be in the contract, have your own responsibility.

Chinese in the gold fields and on the railways, Irish on the docks, Vietnamese in late night drug stores, yes they (or their children) helped make the country great, and they were also instrumental in helping those at the top cement their position there.

Any forces that push wages down, including people willing (or desperate enough) to work for slave wages, is an issue that has to be addressed. If enough customers insist on ethical labour then there will be movement, but while the majority choose the cheapest product without a thought for the chinese prisoners standing waist deep in toxic tanning solutions. The underage machinist assembling the $69 leather jacket then nothing will change.

Falling production costs have let us accumulate more and more, even as our disposable income fell through the floor. Now 2 pieces of injection moulded plastic snapped together now sell for as much as an a complex electronic device, because such a huge proportion of the cost is in the value chain.

Wages in the United States have been driven down and down in real terms, so that market tomato pickers in Florida are being paid almost exactly the same 1c per pound today, that we as kids were paid (In Australia) to pick for sauce THIRTY YEARS AGO.

It's not just the nouveux rich in their gated communities killing folk like this. It's also you and I who repeatedly go to the unenethical employers and other middlemen for the best possible price, becasue we have become so attached to our luxuries that we budget for them by buying on credit, before we budget for many of the essentials of day to day living.



Regarding the landline, that others keep harping on about, where I come from a phone that is never answered or always goes to machine is as much a liability as an asset.

[Downtown Hound]

46. When the OP gets a landline and actually takes some steps to solve his problems on his own

Then I might be willing to listen to his plight of being a victim of immigration. Until he does, then I am so not moved. As I already said, I have been a contractor in the same area he lives in, and I know many older white men that are doing just fine. He said he still gets business by word of mouth, I know guys that make their living entirely that way. If he wants more clients, all he has to do is get a mother fucking landline to help make it happen. But no, he shows no interest in doing that.

Exhaust all possibilities before blaming others for your woes.

[Downtown Hound]

47. Oh, and to address your last line about the landline

Too bad if it's always going to go to machine. All the OP has to do is leave a message on it with his cell phone number and instructions that he can be reached there at any time if needed. His clients can then call his cell phone from that point on. It's an annoying step, I'll give him that, and for what it's worth, I do think craigslist's policy of only allowing landlines is stupid. But the world is full of stupid things. Sometimes you just got to roll with them and find ways around them.

[druidity33]

20. K&UR, nt.

[frylock]

39. i missed the part where you stated which tribal nation that you are a member of

[Omaha Steve]

41. K&R!

[Earth Bound Misfit]

45. Boo Fucking Hoo.

I call BUdoublehockeystixSHIT. I'm in the same boat as you. Approaching 54, unemployed, LONG time divorced, broke, second hand laptop...etc...And it's nobody's fault but mine. We all make our own choices in life, given the obstacles we ALL face EVERY day. There's only two ways to go--the right way, or the EASY way. I chose the easy way too many times, now I'm paying the price.

Nobody's fault but mine.

And yours.

Got a monkey on my back
M-M-Monkey on my back back back back
Gonna change my ways tonight
Nobody's fault but mine

ETA: KNUR for the OP. The rest of the thread get's a Hearty rec.