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Rachel Maddow: Why won't Obama prosecute war crimes, torture?

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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 10:35 PM
Original message
Rachel Maddow: Why won't Obama prosecute war crimes, torture?
Edited on Tue Dec-02-08 10:36 PM by DutchLiberal
 
Run time: 06:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3s-ah_kGbo
 
Posted on YouTube: November 25, 2008
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Posted on DU: December 03, 2008
By DU Member: DutchLiberal
Views on DU: 890
 
Maddow makes a good point: with George Bush being the most unpopular president in history and even the base of the GOP hating him with passion, why are the Democrats so scared to prosecute him?
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gogoplata Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. One reason is that Gates is staying on.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Gates became Secretary of Defense..
in December 2006. I think, if I remember correctly from the Iran/Contra days.. the CIA, and all the other alphabet soup agencies are very careful to get legal findings for any directives from the President. The torture thing is Bush's baby.
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BNMarin Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. I don't think that's an excuse
Because if Gates gets in the way of those prosecutions, then someone else should have been hired.
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pam4water Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. I can't stand Gates. He has that argent Republican smirk.
I don't care who endoses him I don't trust him. He'll under mind Obama. This team of rivals bit is all bull shit.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. If it was a "Team of Rivals", I could accept it.
But so far, it appears to be a team of Entrenched Interests.

When these people are heading up the cheerleading, we have a problem:

"The new administration is off to a good start."
-- Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell.


"Superb ... the best of the Washington insiders ..."
-- David Brooks, conservative New York Times columnist


"Virtually perfect ... "
-- Senator Joe Lieberman, former Democrat and John McCain's top surrogate in the 2008 campaign.


"Reassuring."
-- Karl Rove, "Bush's brain."



"I am gobsmacked by these appointments, most of which could just as easily have come from a President McCain ... this all but puts an end to the 16-month timetable for withdrawal from Iraq, the unconditional summits with dictators, and other foolishness that once emanated from the Obama campaign ... Clinton and Steinberg at State should be powerful voices for 'neo-liberalism' which is not so different in many respects from 'neo-conservativism.'"
-- Max Boot, neoconservative activist, former McCain staffer.



"I see them as being sort of center-right of the Democratic party."
-- James Baker, former Secretary of State and the man who led the theft of the 2000 election.



"Surprising continuity on foreign policy between President Bush's second term and the incoming administration ... certainly nothing that represents a drastic change in how Washington does business. The expectation is that Obama is set to continue the course set by Bush ... "
-- Michael Goldfarb of the neoconservative Weekly Standard.


"I certainly applaud many of the appointments ... "
-- Senator John McCain


"So far, so good."
-- Senator Lamar Alexander, senior Republican Congressional leader.


Hillary Clinton will be "outstanding" as Secretary of State
-- Henry Kissinger, war criminal


Rahm Emanuel is "a wise choice" in the role of Chief of Staff
-- Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, John McCain's best friend.



Obama's team shows "Our foreign policy is non-partisan."
-- Ed Rollins, top Republican strategist and Mike Huckabee's 2008 campaign manager



"The country will be in good hands."
-- Condoleezza Rice, George W. Bush's Secretary of State


http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/109160/neocons%2C_republicans_and_war_criminals_rave_about_obama%27s_%27team_of_rivals%27/


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wundermaus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
4. Until Bush / Cheney / Rove are in jail...
Obama (or any future president) will be suspect of collusion and thus not to be trusted.
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Capt. America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. Vichy Democrats need to join the Rethugs up against the wall.
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The Animator Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
7. One observation...or rather an anaolgy
You are the new captain of an ocean liner, or at least you will be in a little under two months when the old captain is Finally relieved of his command. Under the old captain, this once grand vessel has fallen into decay, the engines are leaking oil like a siv, it's taking on water, and in two months and three days months it is projected to plow directly into the arctic shelf because the old captain hasn't bothered to alter course in eight friggin years. The fact that it isn't already at the bottom of the ocean is more a testament to the resilience of the ship itself, and the resourcefulness of the passengers trapped on the lower decks... duct tape anyone?

You are completely powerless to affect any changes on the ship until you are officially declared captain, you also have no control over what the old captain does until you relieve him of command.

So what do you do?

Do you tell everyone that as soon as you're declared captain you'll throw the old captain in the brig and bring his entire bridge crew up on charges? That may rally the folks down in steerage but it won't win you any support from the upper decks.. the last thing you want is a class war on your ship in addition to all the other problems you'll soon inherit. Not to mention if word gets back to the old captain he may very well grab the only remaining lifeboat for himself and scuttle the ship. Pursuing retribution immediately after assuming command would surely spark a mutiny, you know as well as I that the old captain bridge crew would not go quietly. These pursuits though noble, and necessary would be a distraction your crew can ill afford when every resource needs to be directed at saving the ship and all the lives on board. The new captain would ironically be no better than the old if he let the ship sink for want of bringing the old captain to justice.

Or perhaps you've recognized that you can accomplish all you goals if you act responsibly, and approach each challenge in due course. You've got no control over the course of the ship until you are personally at the helm, and the stubborn old coot won't budge on the course. So you recognize that your first priority is to keep the ship from plowing into the huge fricken wall of ice that's looming on the horizon. You use the intervening two months to inventory everything that's broken on this rusting tub. For the time being, you and your crew will need to focus only on what will be absolutely necessary to keep the ship and it's passengers afloat, and moving. The new captain pairs his new crew with officers from the old crew. This causes some tension, because some members of the old crew were, in part,responsible for the mess in the first place. In the interest of self preservation, however someone on the old crew points out that the ship won't be able to change course because some years ago, the old captain had ordered the rudder welded into place. Various others come forward to reveal other acts of sabotage. Without the help of the old crew, the new captain would not have known of the treachery until it was too late.

Day one has arrived. The new captain is, at long last, at the helm. His first order is to slowly reduce speed, the engines have been running at all ahead full for eight years and is concerned that something as dramatic as a full stop could harm the engines. At least the speed with which they are hurtling toward the ice wall has been curbed. His second order is to the rudder repair crew, who for warned, are already in position to break the welds that have held the rudder in place. As soon as it is free he takes the helm and gently tests it, then gradually pulls the ship to starboard. It's a big ship, it's built up a lot of momentum, it doesn't turn on a dime. If he tried forced such a dramatic change of course too quickly, it would capsize, and the stresses on the hull would rip the ship in half. It is a very close shave, but fortunately, the new captain was able to act quickly by relying on the energy of his new crew, and the experience of the old. He wanted more than anything to hold the old captain accountable for nearly getting them all killed, but though the most pressing threat had been averted, the ship was still in grave danger. It was till slowly sinking, and the engines were close to failing completely. His next move would be to seal all the breaches, next to pump out all the water they've taken on, his last major task would be keeping the engines running until they could get into warmer waters. Once the ship was safely in the subtropics, the new captain ordered a complete overhaul of the engines. After that they would be in the clear. The once elegant and gleaming ship still had a long way to go to reclaim its former grandeur, but it's passengers were safe, and headed in the right direction.

Now it was time, their were still a million different things that needed fixing on this ship, important things, but now that they weren't all about to die it was time to right the wrongs. The old captain was back living on the upper decks, doing his best to isolate himself from the those riffraff on the lower decks who didn't like him and never hesitated to tell him so. Him and his friends were certain that if the new Captain had been planning to take any action against them, he'd have done it already. They had been ready for it, they had been ready for a fight since the instant they new the replacement captain wasn't 'one of theirs'. They all their officers privileges, and teams of lawyers from the upper decks lined up to fight tooth and nail. But the fight didn't come, the new Captain was more concerned with ripping the ship from the clutches of destiny, than he was about revenge. "If I were the new captain I'd be charging in guns blazing"
"I know you would Cap, now drink your juice." said his old first mate. That's when they got the knock on the door.

It was the new Captian, and he'd brought the master at arms. "oh Crap..." said the first mate.

"What the hell? We thought you were spineless. That's not fair!" whined the old Captain. "We're not ready, we were ready before but we thought you were just gonna let it slide."

"Now that the multiple clusterfucks you got this ship into have finally been averted," said the master at arms "it's time for a jury to finally decide."

"Decide what? Our guilt or innocence?"

"No, whether your evil, or stupid."
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yeah!
:applause: Nice Writ!
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. You're right. We shouldn't prosecute war crimes. We might hurt Republicans' feelings...
:eyes:

The Republicans never seem to care about working together. They did their best to impeach Bill Clinton over private matters, and they succeeded! But now, when there's actual crimes being perpetrated by the president and vice-president, we should just let it slide because we have to work with them? Why? They fucked up the country for 8 years, they did everything wrong, and now suddenly they're deemed part of the solution? They're part of the problem.

Not prosecuting them only means a precedent is set, which tells future presidents it's okay to behave like Bush and Co. did. And the same people who have screwed America over in the past 8 years can come back with a vengeance. Just like all the people from the Reagan-Bush years came back because Bill Clinton decided to wipe every one of their crimes under the rug.
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The Animator Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Somebody obviously didn't read to the end...
It's ok, I know it was a long post... I'll some it up.

This country is facing several crisis at once, any one of them could be a total catastrophe. We all know who's fault it is. All I'm saying is deal with the immediate threats first. Stabilize the economy, end the torture, free the wrongfully imprisoned and give restitution, and pull our troops out of Iraq. Then and only then can you begin to hold Bush's feet to the fire.

Maybe another simpler analogy.. You've got a plumber over to fix a leaky pipe in you basement. While in your basement this bumbling fool, let's call him Joe, somehow traps you both in the basement. Not even acknowledging that this is a problem, he starts to work on your pipes. He screws that up too, turns out he's not even a licensed plumber. the pipe bursts and your basement begins to rapidly flood with water. What do you do?

(a) call your lawyer so you can sue his pants off?

(b) call the better business bureau to report an unlicensed plumber?

(c) beat him half to death with you bare hands for being such an idiot?

(d) all of the above?

as satisfying as all those options will be you won't have time to do any of it unless you choose

(e) realize that your trapped in a small underground room that's rapidly filling with water and that you should figure out how the stop the leak before you both drown.
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DutchLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. No need for simplistic analogies...
Postponing the prosecution of Bush and Co. will help nobody. If we have to solve every other problem in the world before we can get to Bush, two terms of an Obama presidency will already have passed and the same fuckers who backed Bush will be there to run amok again. What you say, is a false dichotomy: you act as if we can only address one problem at he time and that's simply not true.

I really don't know why so many Democrats are SO insisting on letting Bush get away with what he did...
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-04-08 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. This post deserves it's own thread! - (put it in GD!)
Edited on Thu Dec-04-08 07:51 AM by annabanana
It is a very useful analogy.
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