FEIN: Obama has gone BEYOND Bush Cheney - State Secrets, Detainees, Habeas Corpus

[SLSmith]

Run time: 02:02 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2924rXrbb8   Posted on YouTube: May 02, 2009 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: May 03, 2009 By DU Member: SLSmith Views on DU: 5333

 
A tidbit I found correct on Obama's policies so far.

May 1, 2009
Bruce Fein & Mark Danner
Bill Moyers The Journal

[libertypirate]

1. It takes loosing sometimes in order to win /nt

[Papa Boule]

4. Yes. Doubledy super secret eleventy mentional chess n/t

[Titonwan]

18. That's what Obama apologists think, yes.

I'm impressed that there's a few Republicans out there that have some common sense. Fein is right as rain (and so is Danner).
I don't know what his reasons are, but Barack DOES have Secret Service protection, so he needs to get things right and quit
being a coward about it. And stop protecting N. Pelosi (et alia). They're DINO's anyway. Fuck em, feed em frog heads. And prison.

[balantz]

2. Who can defend these actions? Who would want to? n/t

[dixiegrrrrl]

3. Psychology of empire....interesting term.

Thanks for posting.

[mikehiggins]

5. Somehow, I don't buy it

Have we so quickly forgotten what Bush/Cheney actually did, as opposed to what they were saying? And we are supposed to condemn Obama because he somehow isn't able to change the course of the big boat as fast as we'd like. It isn't just the Bush/Cheney Show that has been going on in this country since JFK got his head blown off. All subsequent presidents--except MAYBE Carter (and we know how that one ended)--have been steadfastedly contributing to the growth and expansion of this "empire". How odd that BHO isn't able to just wave a magic wand and make it all okay. He joked about being born on Krypton but there are a lot of folks who seem to think he really is Superman, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

It ain't necessarily so, folks. There is a lot of momentum in this system and it's going to take a lot of time to bleed it off. Meanwhile there are lots of folks (GOPukes, MSM newsreaders, Blue Dog Dems and others) waiting and praying for a serious misstep so all the good BHO can do can be shrugged off as an aberration.

I don't buy it. I'm over sixty and I lived through all those days--as a young man I was even on one of RMN's commissions--and I beleive that BHO is our best hope of putting the ship of state on a better course. It will never please all of us (I want Bush and CHeney and Rumsfeld and Rice and Rove and all of them perpwalked out of the local lockup and put on trial for treason and murder and all of that but I don't really expect to see that day dawn) but its a whole lot better to be trying to do what we can do, and build on it, than weep and moan that things aren't the way we want them to be.

Sorry, folks. It isn't now and probably never will be, but the reality is that its a whole lot better than it was just 109 days ago.

Just saying.

[Piewhacket]

6. On the other hand,

WHILE still a SENATOR Obama voted FOR the FISA telecom immunity...

It has long been the law that persons acting 'under color of law'
whether they be technical employees of the government or not, are
liable as government actors when they deprive a citizen of civil rights.

unfortunately, con law professors don't also teach civil rights,
in fact i'd say what they do teach makes them especially insensitive
and incompetent at understanding or accepting of civil rights. and
that's the most generous thing I can think of to say about Obama's
FISA vote.

BUT NOW we hear government lawyers STILL making such insane arguments
as total civil immunity, blanket application of government secrets,
and no judicial review (habeas). These are not arguments consistent
with rule of law, they are arguments for the rule of men! This is
the OBAMA Justice Department in action. No need to guess, these
arguments are reiterated in new court documents.

Yet even if the courts finally rules against the government on such
things it will not protect us from a repeat performance, or worse,
of the last 8 lawless years unless there are CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS.
This Obama has clearly opposed despite his statement that clear evidence
of criminal acts and conspiracy would be prosecuted. He's flunking that promise.

I'm giving OBAMA a C on civil rights, and that isn't a good grade for someone
with his intellect. I'd give him a F if he hadn't ordered a cease to the more
abusive criminality, like closing Gitmo, and some other things.

Its no g*damn problem to turn the ship. Stop illegal spying on americans, stop
torture and mistreatment of prisoners, stop making obstructive political decisions
like opposing prosecutions and making insane legal arguments, and PROSECUTE the MF
in the last administration who clearly violated US law.

[tomp]

31. agreed, the "turning the ship" excuse is just that, an excuse...

....and people use it to defend obama rather than admit that our entire govt, from top to bottom is corrupt.

[givemebackmycountry]

8. MIke - I can understand what your saying here...

Think of it this way.

We are all on a big ass jet plane and everyone in the cockpit is incapacitated.
Pilot Barack Obama has just pried the cabin door open, and is settling in behind the controls.
The plane is in a steep, and very fast descent, and he's doing everything he can to bring it back under control.

He has to determine:

What went wrong.
When it went wrong.
What caused it to go wrong.
What the previous crew did to contribute to what went wrong.
What he needs to do right now to stop the rapid descent.
What he needs to do to land the aircraft safely.

In the meantime we will continue to lose altitude until he can figure out a way to level things out.

It's a simple analogy, but it's all I got.

I hope that is what he's doing.

I see our President as a lot of things.
Evil, is not one of them.

[greguganus]

25. We got *$#%$^ snakes on the plane! n/t

[AlbertCat]

13. There is a lot of momentum in this system

BINGO!

Obama has to work in an atmosphere created by Repugs and weak Dems for decades and many many MANY of the old school is still entrenched and operating. We didn't just empty out the entire government and replace it with Care Bears, y'know.

Besides, Obama is just President. There's Congress and the Judiciary too y'know. Why do people even think the Prez is all powerful? It's kinda amusing to see people complain about Bush and executive power-grab Bushism and also want Obama to just MAKE everyone else in government do his bidding. Helloooooo!

[L. Coyote]

7. WHO is this? Bruce Fein, former deputy attorney general under Reagan

Bruce Fein, former deputy attorney general under President Ronald Reagan and chairman of the American Freedom Agenda.

WATCH the entire Television video here:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/05012009/watch.html

PLUS, the Web exclusive continuation here:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/05012009/watch3.html


DISCUSS on DU here:
Bill Moyers tonight -US Torture and Consequences? Bruce Fein and Mark Danner
http://www.democraticunderground.org/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5579158

[bertman]

20. I've been to hear Fein speak twice. He's a dedicated constitutionalist. Period. He was all

over Bush and Cheney and screaming for impeachment when our quisling Democratic Representatives were cowering in the fucking corner.

Whether he was a deputy AG under Reagan is irrelevant. The man is correct. He is stating facts. It's up to the rest of us to decide if Obama is a chess master or if he's a pawn of the MIC and Financial Elite. We should know in a few short years. Until then, we need more people like Bruce Fein helping us to see what's happening for real.

[tnlefty]

21. He and John Dean were both out there about abuse of power,

(which Dean knows a thing to two about) prior to the '04 election. John Dean was on Randi Rhodes' show many times discussing these abuses and I think that Bruce Fein was on her show once or twice.

On these types of issues I view them as Americans who are trying to point out the dangers of abuse of power and for that I thank them both.

[democracy1st]

29. yes and you don't make up your mind in 4 mos

[democracy1st]

60. Reagan admin one of the most corrupt in history

[mmonk]

63. Any attempts to discredit Fein on Constitutional facts, or paint him as corrupt

will fail to all familiar with him.

[democracy1st]

64. he's a republican for a reason

[mmonk]

65. So you are saying he's without merit because of his party affiliation?

Bruce Fein was for impeachment of bush. That made him more of an opposition to bush than many Democrats in office.

[democracy1st]

66. you figure it out ,as much corruption as he's seen coming from the right

he's still a registered republican

[mmonk]

67. Or your party affiliation blinds you to consider anything

he says.

[pschoeb]

41. Actually wikipedia claims associate deputy attorney general in 1981-82

But I can't actually find him in the lists, Giuliani was Reagan's associate deputy attorney general. When I look at Fein's official bio on the Lichfield Groups webpage, it seems that this was misread from the poor writing of the website. He seems to have been merely a legal advisor to both the associate deputy attorney general(Giuliani) and the deputy attorney general(Edward C. Schmults). His actual DOJ job title was assistant director of the Office of Legal Policy(which was only formed in 1981).

[debbierlus]

9. Obama is a feel good politician to fool the people...How else could they have just given TRILLIONS

To banks with hardly ANY benefit to the people and retain a 68% approval rating?

Obama is the military industrial & corporate fascists ally, not enemy.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

10. This is all very disappointing. ...n/t

[AlbertCat]

14. This is all very disappointing

Wait....I though he was a FEEL GOOD president!



:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[democracy1st]

30. this guy i s trying to say Obama is worse than Bush/Cheney thats pure BS

[Just-plain-Kathy]

57. Personally, Obama continuing wars and bailouts hurt me more than Bush and Cheney ever did.

[democracy1st]

61. listen to yourself its been 4mos and you're saying Obama is worse than Bush ?

[cliffordu]

11. He inherited these court cases, and each get struck down and Obama

doesn't appeal the result.

:eyes:

[L. Coyote]

12. A Reagan appointee is bashing a Democrat. Why am I not surprised?

Why are you not questioning this yourself?

[JayMusgrove]

15. Yeah, I never heard such bullshit in my life....and where did Reagan

teach Constitutional law??

Oh wait, he starred in movies...right!

This thread should be deleted for shallowness, don't you agree?

This is a pure bullshit thread, started by some ignorant poster.

[L0oniX]

37. Yea ...you're just what we need here to stop all the ignorant posters.

Thanks for implying that we shouldn't watch Bill Moyers or post his program on DU ...after all we know Bill is a repuke shill right?
:eyes:

[bvar22]

45. OOPS!

There goes Bill Moyers under the bus.
He dared to criticize the anointed one and the camp followers are up in arms.
If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny.

[tomp]

32. but if a reagan appointee were supporting obama...

...you'd use it in obama's defense.

[JayMusgrove]

16. Please google all the people you quote and want us to

pay attention to.

You are less than politically educated, and I bet you failed your first course in philosophy in college, or never dared go to college............or never dared read a book on political philosophy....or just came here to make this look like you know what you are talking about.

Obama, takes no position on criminal activities...will let to courts and the juries decide.

You, willing to convict Obama before you know his judicial philosophy?

OK!

[Just-plain-Kathy]

19. We all know Obama doesn't want to "look back"...He should be asking for their heads!

Clinton didn't hold Poppy Bush accountable and Obama will let Junior walk. We have to face it, Obama will take a different path then the Bushes, but in the end corporations will continue to get rich on our dime, with nothing for us in return.

[AlbertCat]

22. Clinton didn't hold Poppy Bush accountable

Uh....no president is responsible for holding anyone accountable. That is the job of the Judiciary.

Again...why do we even think the Prez is all powerful? Why do you buy into the Cheney view of the Executive?

[Just-plain-Kathy]

23. So you're saying after eight years of Bush crossing the line to go against us...

...you're not for Obama doing all he could to hold Bush accountable?

[AlbertCat]

36. No, that's not what I said at all.

[bvar22]

47. NO!

Law Enforcement IS the job of the Executive Branch (White House). The Department of Justice is organized UNDER the Executive Branch (White House). The Attorney General is chosen by the President, and serves at the pleasure of the President.

Congress CANNOT prosecute. The can only hold investigations and refer them to the Executive Branch for prosecution.

The Judicial Branch CANNOT prosecute. They can only preside over trials.

Or at least that was the way it was in the 60's when I took High School Civics.

[AlbertCat]

50. Thank you

I was muddled and unclear.

But still, Obama himself cannot tell the DOJ (which is what I meant...but used the wrong word "judiciary") how to do things. I seem to remember we now have a bit of a problem just because Bush's administration did just that. The AG may serve at the pleasure of the Prez, but he cannot just do what the Prez tells him to do.


My point is that this Cheney-esque power grab has become what people expect, even here...though sorta subliminally. The Prez shouldn't be just making departments of government do his bidding. I know doing things the correct way takes time and can be a pain, but it's better than what we've had for 8 years.

[bvar22]

54. There has always been a gray area between....

the President, and the Attorney General.
The Attorney General is supposed to be entirely independent, but in reality, that is not the case. How can someone who is appointed BY the President, and serves at the pleasure of The President ever be entirely "independent".

As far as our current crisis, Obama could give a nod to Holder to appoint an legitimate (squeaky clean) Independent Prosecutor, and then step COMPLETELY AWAY from this explosive issue.
Let the chips fall where they may.
Further delay only strengthens the perception that the White House is protecting Torturers & War Criminals.

There is NO DOUBT that serious crimes have been committed.
Any "Investigations" or "Truth Commissions" undertaken by Congress would only impede the Rule of Law at this point.

[firedupdem]

24. +1

Something smells. He should have reversed years of bush/cheney by now and if not he's even worse than they are. Yeah right :eyes:

[tomp]

33. wow, and you dare call someone else uneducated. nt

[bvar22]

46. Who are you talking to?

The OP merely posted a segment from Bill Moyers.

Are you calling Bill Moyers, Bruce Fein, & Mark Danner
"less than politically educated, and I bet you failed your first course in philosophy in college, or never dared go to college............or never dared read a book on political philosophy".

LOL

You are in waaaaaaay over your head.

[razors edge]

17. I really hate it when

those Paultards get proven right.

Maybe Rahm can adopt an abused puppy to make this all go away.

[omega minimo]

26. Why isn't that in the transcript?

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/05012009/transcript1.html

[Senator]

27. The transcript doesn't include the "web extra"

But only what aired on the program. Here's a http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2009/05/democracy_and_empire.html">link to the "extra".

That said,

Why wasn't that broadcast to the public ?!?

--

[omega minimo]

43. Why, indeed. Thank you, Senator.

:hi:

[democracy1st]

28. So now we have the whole rightwing talking about how much abusive the Obama admin is and

you guys are buying this crap,it hasn't been a yr

[tomp]

34. excuse mongering. full up here. nt

[peacetalksforall]

35. I despised Fein in th 90's for his contributions to the character assassination of

Clinton, but I admire him now. Not for making Obama look worse, but because of his passionate (a fair word, I think) embrace of the constitution - habeas corpus and all the rest.

I would like to see Rahm Emanuel Nancy Pelosi Chuck Schumer Diane Feinstein Bayh Landrieau Ben/Bll Belson and VP Biden speak to the constitutional purity as passionately as Fein. It's all about interpretation of law and how passionately and how fast it can be saved. And yes, it looks like Obama is holding on to Cheney-Bush crimes, but we don't know what the obstacles are - except for the players.

I don't know about the economic bail-out for the wealthy, but it doesn't look good to be from my gut. Therefore, I'm on the fence about who Obama is. But, the big question is who he will be.

I can't see him let down the little people who were proud of their vote, who cried, who were incredulous. If he is just another empire sustainer that screws the little people which is where operating above the law starts, then it is truly over for the hearts and minds and hopes of the citizens of this country.

There is sickness everywhere - and it permeates the military brass and part of the judgeships. And it seems to be a near total rotten mess in Congress except for the likes of Feingold, Kucinich and a few others.

The audacity of Pryor Bayh the Nelsons Landrieau and the rest, the power of the DLC is still stinking up this Party.

If people are asking the Judiciary to prosecute Cheney Bush, the people have to throw Feinstein, Schumer and the ones already mentioned out also. They were Republicans in all the essential votes for Cheney-Bush during the last eight years. The only difference between them and Joe Leiberman is that he tells it like he is. No speeches to make you think that the Feinstein types are honorable law makers.

It takes more than one person to make an empire. Look at the Dem Congress Obama inherited and came from. It is iffy and it's an issue of whether they listen to us or their lobbyists, tri-laterals, Fed Society, Reverends/Rabbis/Aipac/Heritage and many empire builder think tanks and foundations. Barons want an empire. Many are working for the barons instead of the Constitution.

[Faryn Balyncd]

38. Bruce Fein on the Supreme Court would be a real check & balance.

[democracy1st]

59. be for real the guy can't even register independent to protest the crap the repubs

have been shelling out for yrs

[guruoo]

39. You really think he's gonna tell you?

:rofl:

[nickgutierrez]

40. All the easier for the court to strike that stuff down.

Obama is a constitutional scholar and a lawyer - he knows that the judicial system works on precedent. If he can get a court ruling against the most blatantly illegal of these policies, that ruling of law is legally binding to all courts below the one making the decision. One of these cases may well end up in the Supreme Court for exactly that reason.

Policy can easily be changed by future presidents. Supreme Court findings of law, not so much.

[George II]

42. An undocumented, opinionated "chat" on PBS. In that case let's go back to bush, okay?

[Buzz Clik]

44. I sort of understand the desire of certain elements to see more rapid change. But!

... when we start the conversation with "Obama's worse than Bush", the person saying it loses all credibility.

[George II]

48. My sentiments exactly....

...I'm getting more and more frustrated with people around here lately.

It seems that if he hasn't enacted 110% of what they want (forget that it's Congress that controls most of this anyway), Obama is a bum and we should throw him out.

That is the major underly fault with Democrats, they are just too stubbornly idealistic. It's as though 90% of what they want isn't good enough, even though they only had 10% of what they wanted under the previous administration.

Bugs me to no end!!!

[axollot]

58. Why do people *want* a 'bananna republic'?! 100 days....THE WHOLE WORLD FIXED!

Sheesh, I know 8 years of Bush hell sucks folks - if there is one thing I've learned from Obama's campaign, he can get things done. He *thinks too, it's been so long, we've forgotten what a thinking Prez looks like!

Cheers
Sandy

[Senator]

51. Then let me start the conversation with a question.

What do you think is "worse?" A gang of criminals rampaging through the city -- or a corrupt police force that refuses to enforce the laws?

--

[Buzz Clik]

52. They both suck. Which is worse for you -- marital rape or addictive masturbation?

I love false analogies, don't you?

[Senator]

53. I see.

You sure do love false analogies.

--

[Buzz Clik]

56. Indeed I do! Yours was a work of art.

[George II]

49. Why don't you state specifically HOW Obama has gone beyond bush/Cheney?

I seriously doubt you can.

[bvar22]

55. Again, WHO are you talking to?

The OP was referencing a statement made by Bruce Fein on the Bill Moyers Journal on PBS.
That is clearly indicated in the title of the OP.
IF you go and watch the video, your questions will be specifically answered.

Better yet, start watching Bill Moyers Journal on a weekly basis.
Even more of your questions will be answered.

[George II]

70. Follow the dotted line UP to the post I'm talking to....

[Political Heretic]

62. I watched the video, love Moyers, but found this to be lacking

I appreciate some of the points Fein is making, however (and believe it it pains me to say this) I admit that in certain specifics of his case I feel it is simply too soon to arrive at the conclusions he does.

It is absolutely true, that in the specific instance of the fisa/spying case of last month, the justice department's argument goes beyond anything Bush/Cheney ever argued and that is very sad.

It is also true, that the administration argued that habeas corpus doesn't apply in a place like Basra, and the implication of this would be that we could ship people there and hold people without charge for as long as we like. That's also extremely disappointing.

But I some people in this thread are jumping to the sweeping all or nothing conclusion that Obama is worse or "the same" as Bush - and that is exceptionally oversimplified. All or nothing simplifications really have no place in talking about something as complicated as national politics. We're four months in.

The administration has done some things I disagree with and some things I agree with. We need to continue to apply pressure to Obama to do the things we think he should do in whatever ways we can. But "conclusion making" at this point is just foolish.

[L. Coyote]

68. INDEED And, watch the entire program, no just this little excerpt. LINKS:

WATCH the entire Television video here:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/05012009/watch.html

PLUS, the Web exclusive continuation here:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/05012009/watch3.html

[Political Heretic]

69. Can you summarize? I can't watch it right now.