Rachel Maddow- Contractor endangers troops with religious propaganda on rifle scopes

[ProfessorPlum]

Run time: 02:23 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZDWkIoj-Fo   Posted on YouTube: January 19, 2010 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: January 19, 2010 By DU Member: ProfessorPlum Views on DU: 4197

 
Bible chapter and verse citations on rifles used in training indigenous militias violate the law and the military code of conduct. The contractor making them is going to continue to do so. Thanks a lot, military/industrial/Crusade complex!

[PeanutsarePoison]

1. If you own a Trijcon site, this isn't news

they've done it for years and not just on military equipment

[jgraz]

14. In other words, this was known before the contract was approved.

Somebody needs to get fired.

[PeanutsarePoison]

21. isn't the product the real issue? Does it do the job that's needed

better than the competition?
I could care less if there's a bible reference or not on it. Trijcon makes great sights and optics

[jgraz]

25. So if the scopes said "Allahu Akbar" you'd have no problem with it?

Sure you wouldn't. :eyes:

[PeanutsarePoison]

26. the scopes don't actually have anything but a reference to a bible verse

if they said "Jesus is Lord" I would take issue with that.

It's a reference on their product code, not a blatant verse written out from the bible.

I don't see the issue on this other than some people have a real need to be outraged by something. even when it doesn't really affect them in any way, shape or form

[jgraz]

27. If you don't see an issue then you don't understand the Constitution

And "bible code" is almost worse than an actual verse. It makes it look sneaky while adding to the crusader image.

[PeanutsarePoison]

31. what part of the constitution are you referring to? Can't be the first amendment as written

I see this whole thing as a non issue.

[jgraz]

32. It's right there in the first sentence of the First Amendment. Kinda hard to miss.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

[PeanutsarePoison]

34. How does a bible reference constitute the establishment of a religion

any more than providing church services on a military base or Qurans to prisoners at Gitmo?

And, what congressional law are we imagining is being used to establish this religion?

This is a ridiculous story....

[jgraz]

39. Can a soldier refuse to use a scope with a bible verse on it?

They can refuse to attend church or read the Quran. If they're issued a scope containing a bible verse, can they request a different one?

[PeanutsarePoison]

40. Absolutely, every M-16 comes with sights on the rifle. Optics are added

and quite frankly, if a bible verse will keep a muslim from using a Trijcon scope against our boys, then I'm all for it continuing

[jgraz]

41. Bullshit. Marines don't walk to the local gun shop to buy scopes.

They're bought by the military and issued by the military.

And, these are used in the training of Iraqi and Afghan troops. You know, the ones who will take over and let our guys come home? You'd better worry if muslims refuse to use them.

[PeanutsarePoison]

43. The M-16 comes standard with sights. Optics are aftermarket products purchased by the military

and if the Iraqis and Afghans are upset by this, they can purchase Aimpoint products.

Quite frankly,there's no need to have optics for the majority of soldiers

[jgraz]

44. Dodge, dodge, dodge

Answer the question: If a Marine is issued a scope with a bible verse, can they refuse to use it?

I'll answer it for you: NO, they cannot refuse to use it. That's a violation of the Establishment Clause.

[PeanutsarePoison]

45. yes, they can refuse to use the scope. Optics are OPTIONAL

you don't HAVE to put Optics on your weapon.

[AtheistCrusader]

59. No one is required to use them.

They may be issued, or available, but you do not have to install them on your weapon. Nor does Trijicon own the entire military market. A unit may have more than one type available, as different products offer different features, and capabilities. Another manufacturer would be zeiss, of particular interest to the sharpshooters, who are statistically more likely to have optics on their weapon at all.

But hypothetically speaking, if EVERY solider decided they wanted the aimpoint, or a zeiss product, and NONE of them wanted Trijicon, some would certainly be stuck with the Trijicon's, or go without, because there wouldn't be enough of the others to go around.

But again, not all soldiers use, or want them.

[PavePusher]

48. File. Paint. Done. Please cease the hysteria.

This is a COTS item that had the "code" well before the government ever thought about buying them.

Another manufactured P.C.-handwringing-outrage-du-jour.

[jgraz]

51. It's just a little violation of the First Amendment, eh?

I wonder if you'd feel the same about a "small" violation of the Second Amendment.

[PavePusher]

52. Explain how it is a violation of the First.

IT'S A PART NUMBER BEING CLEVER.

Since before the government was a customer.

Get. Over. It.

[jgraz]

55. "Get Over It" Wow, that's a strong Constitutional argument you got there.

:eyes:

[PavePusher]

56. Again, please detail the violation, I am not seeing it. Thanks. n/t

[jgraz]

60. Really, you need this explained?

Our government is using our tax dollars to purchase weapons with "clever" references to the Christian bible and you can't see a violation? How blatant does the Establishment have to be before you see a connection?

[PavePusher]

61. I guess we'd better stop buying those kosher MRE's. n/t

[jgraz]

63. Bad analogy. We also buy Halal MREs, vegetarian MREs, etc.

Do we have Muslim rifle scopes? Jewish scopes? Scopes promoting atheism?

[PavePusher]

79. P.S. Do you actually think this was an intentional act of the government...

to buy this product over others because it had a religious reference buried in the PART NUMBER?

Provide proof and you might have a talking point.

As I have stated elsewhere, I'm done with this subject.

I suggest everyone stop throwing dirt on what used to be a cute little mole-hill.

Good Day.

[jgraz]

80. Oh right, the first amendment has that exception for unintentional violations

:eyes:

[AtheistCrusader]

58. I know that other sights are used, such as Aimpoint.

There are others. It would probably only depend upon what was available to that unit, and the armorer. Soldiers often purchase their own as well. Probably not supposed to, but it happens.

Most likely 99.9% of the troops were unaware of the references (as was everyone else) until this made the news. I own one of Trijicon's products, and was unaware.

[jgraz]

69. Hopefully, Aimpoint will be getting an exclusive contract

This is another "nose under the tent" attempt by the theocrats. When they decide to paint "Jesus is Lord" on an aircraft carrier, they'll point to these rifle scopes as a justifying precedent. Just like they do with "In God We Trust" on our money.

[AtheistCrusader]

84. Most of them don't even know that was added in 1956.

I say the Pledge as it was originally adopted, and they go 'huh?'. That was fucked up in 1954. It was vandalism on the foundation of our country.

That's right, the Knights of Columbus are vandals. Attacking the very fibre of America.

[daleanime]

28. Nice dodge,,,

You hardly had to think at all:sarcasm: Now how about answering the question? If it was a reference to a passage from the Koran would you still feel the same?

[PeanutsarePoison]

30. yes, I'd have a problem if there was actually something written

on the sight itself.
I don't have a problem with a reference to a verse that would require someone to go find a bible and look it up for the meaning.

[daleanime]

33. No, not the bible...

the Koran, if the reference was to a verse from the Koran, would that cause any problems for you?

For myself it seems to lack any form of judgment to interject religion into the act of killing people.

[PeanutsarePoison]

35. presented in the same way, I wouldn't have a problem at all

especially, if they were references to light on a scope designed to shoot people in limited light situations

[hmorehead]

90. Who really CARES? Its not the wepons that offend, its the freaking war.

[hmorehead]

97. Absolutely no problem at all. My problem is with US troops being there at all.

[MNLeftie]

54. Write them!

http://www.trijicon.com/contact.cfm

[ScottLand]

2. News to me, not surprising, but still disgusting.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

3. Considering how long this has apparently gone on, surely she has some deaths attributable to this

While I don't agree with it, the hyperbole is silly

[thunder rising]

4. Whoa! Every aspect of government issue for the military is spec-ed. Such phrases cannot appear

without somebody having given the OK or at least the blind eye.

Contractors are expected (commanded) to change the "packaging" of their items bound for military service.

So this is big news that these phrases appear.

I wonder if they were on the prototypes submitted to the Pentagon?

[PeanutsarePoison]

6. There aren't any phrases

Their product codes correspond to bible passages....
Someone is trying to get back at the company for something or has way too much time on their hands. This isn't really news.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. I had not seen that claim before...where is it sourced

[PeanutsarePoison]

10. you can find them on their products going back years

they've been on Trijcon's products for years. They are all references to light, which is fitting given they are a huge manufacturer of night sights and low light optics.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2010/01/15/trijicons-subtle-christian-messages/

[ProgressiveProfessor]

73. Are they part of the part number or just a varying suffix?

I did check a few today, and yes they are there.

[thunder rising]

8. "Bible chapter and verse citations on rifles", my bad verses.

[jgraz]

12. Did you even *watch* the video?

Bible verses on scopes used to kill Muslims?? Do you not get how inflammatory that is? Or are you in favor of it?

[PeanutsarePoison]

20. Watching the video won't change the fact that Trijcon does this on all its products

and they all have more to do with light, because the products are primarily optics and sights for night or low level light.

They've done this for years, it's not about muslims or sending a message for some christian crusade. It's a company practice. Buy Eotech or AimPoint

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. Actually that is not true and hasn't been for years

COTS items do not get speced. Also specs today are KPP focused, which leaves many details up to the contractor.

[PavePusher]

49. Frankly, I'm not a bible fanatic..

and have seen this many times but never twigged to the meaning.

And, since I don't buy into grand conspiracy theories, I DON'T CARE.

There are real problems to expend my energy on.

File. Paint. Done.

End.

[W T F]

5. So, why should I have to pay to promote Christianity with the taxes that I pay?

[jgraz]

15. Because it's such an obscure, persecuted religion

:sarcasm:

[jgraz]

11. Just when I thought I couldn't love Rachel any more...

Awesome rant. :loveya:

[AtheistCrusader]

13. Buy stock in Aimpoint.

Sounds like Trijicon is about to lose some contracts.


As an atheist, I would never have known what the hell that stuff was, and probably would have assumed it was an innocuous version number or model code.

I've long meant to have something engraved on the receiver of my AR-15 though, "For my confession they burned me with fire and found I was for endurance made."

Widely attributed to 1001 Arabian Nights, but I've never been able to identify which translation, and which version/book it was from.

[Festivito]

16. I find Rachel WRONG in this. Muslims accept the Bible. No problem.

I love her dearly. She's as smart as they come. But, on this, she's wrong.

This is not inciting Muslims. Near as I can tell this does not come from any Muslim. As well, this uproar could not come from any self-respecting Muslim.

The rest of her extrapolations would subsequently fall flat.

[ProfessorPlum]

17. What does "Muslims accept the Bible" mean?

It must mean something like "Christians accept the Koran", but I can't think of what that means, either.

I think you are entirely wrong to think that an American company producing weapons with Christian symbols on them used to kill Muslims isn't a PR disaster for the West.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. Muslims accept Jesus as a prophet.

Just not as the son of god. Much of their religion depends on things established by the old and even the new testaments.

I think they take issue with jesus being the one true way to heaven though ('the light' as the quotes referenced), Muslims skip that, even with their own prophet, and Allah (god to christians) is the way, not any interceding prophet/son of god.

Christians do not accept the koran, specifically because their religion falls flat if Jesus was merely a prophet.

(Assuming any such character ever existed at all.)

[Festivito]

22. Do you know of any reference to Muslims taking issue of any of this?

I realize that you begin that with "I think they take issue..."

I'm thinking more and more that this whole uproar is not from any Muslims.

[burning rain]

29. It pays to be proactive & avoid needlessly inflammatory stuff like this up-front.

A backlash from Muslims is predictable. Any Muslim cleric who issued a fatwa saying that Americans having Bible verses on rifle sights is OK, would be reviled by mainstream Muslims, and it's fanciful to suppose that any Muslim cleric would issue such a fatwa.

[Festivito]

42. Predictable as a self-fulfilling prophecy. /nt

[burning rain]

74. Do you think it's a good idea for American troops to go into battle with Bible references....

on their weapons? Why or why not?

[PavePusher]

76. It's been done for... ummm... CENTURIES!

And it's only a problem now that our enemies are... wait for it... Religous fanatics? Seriously?

I'm going back to my dinner, this deceased equine has been over-tenderized.



Edit: For the record, any religous tendencies I may have run to Warrior Zen Quaker leanings. With a dose of Paganism/Norse mythology. Yeah, parse that one....

[burning rain]

77. Do you think it's a good idea for weapons to be provided to soldiers like that?

With religious references on them? Are you serious? To my mind it serves no necessary purpose and needlessly creates a bone of contention. We need to fight certain Islamists, and I oppose pandering to Islam (or any religion), but I'd also like to avoid needless provocation.

[PavePusher]

78. I'm saying that no-one noticed this until a hand-wringing bunch of candy-butts...

shoved it in everyone's face to fill some empty air-time and make ratings.

I. Don't. Care.

At the risk (certainty) of repeating myself for the 15th freaking time:

File. Paint. Make any ensuing orders use a nuetral part number.

And then everyone quit whining and go do something useful

I'm out, I got better stuff to do. Good Day.

[burning rain]

81. It's not just an issue for candy-asses.

Our troops in majority-Muslim combat zones face Islamist nutters as it is, and have no need for the Muslim populace to be more inflamed than they're going to be anyway by completely needless crap like this.

[AtheistCrusader]

37. Well, I know some that certainly disagree.

In fact, they all must. The degree of excitability when 'taking issue with' may vary though.

[Festivito]

50. I don't know what you're answering. Disagree with what? /nt

[AtheistCrusader]

57. Disagree with the referenced bible quotes

that specified Jesus is the one true way, the light, etc. While Islam may rely upon the old testament, and pieces of the new testament, to them Jesus was a prophet, not divine.

So to put it succinctly, they absolutely disagree with the specifically selected bible references, and the degree of enthusiasm in that disagreement remains to be seen.

Cat is out of the bag now.

[Festivito]

62. I was asking if any Muslim took issue with the imprinted scopes.

As to your elaboration, I think you mean they would disagree with the idea you might mean in saying that Jesus is the one true way versus saying that in the age and context of the prophet he was the one true way (at that time), which would then no conflict with Islamic teachings. But, we digress.

I think I've covered this topic enough. It just seems like more disaster capitalism to me. We're all afraid of a perceived threat. They'll order new scopes now, and we'll pay for it. And they'll conjure some other scheme to get our tax dollars while the current flow is running.

Not a pretty sight. Hope your outlook is better.

[AtheistCrusader]

65. Most likely this represents a burned bridge.

If the scopes must be replaced, they will come from another manufacturer, so Trijicon stands to lose a lot here. Optics like this aren't cheap.

There are other options, such as the military demanding it's money back, or for the manufacturer to repair (replace or modify the cases) the 'defect in workmanship'.

But most likely, military suppliers aren't going to buy their stuff, at least until it's fixed, and possibly much longer than that, just because of all the PR pain the military is getting over it.


Of course, at the time of Jesus, Islam hadn't been invented yet, so yeah, there would have been no objection from that quarter.

[Festivito]

66. Nice chance for a competitor to plant and fan a story.

Yes, that was the order of things. OT, Jesus and the NT, then Islam. And Islam didn't need to have great disagreement with the NT, not even the passages cited.

[AtheistCrusader]

67. Well, I have seen references to

'islam is the light', so I'm reasonably certain they would take umbrage with 'jesus is the light', though I do not know if that would fall into 'no you're wrong' or 'YOU'RE WRONG ARGLE BARGLE' levels of disagreement.

To flip things a bit, there was a flap over a video game for the Nintendo DS that included the phrase 'Islam is the light' with Christians, so yeah, I think there could be friction there going the other way. Plus, this is weaponry the US, a secular Government employs, so... Idunno. Certainly competitors could stand to gain, but I doubt they are the prime mover behind the media story here.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/2/2/

[Festivito]

19. It means something like Christians accept the Old Testament.

... and Christians certainly accept the New Testament.

Muslims accept Jesus as a prophet, but not as a Deity. They accept the Bible as a book describing prophets from times of the Old Testament onward.

There should be no problem with quoting verses in a book they accept.

And, thank you for responding.

[ProfessorPlum]

23. I think your definition of "accept" here is a little loose

Muslims would certainly not "accept" the parts of the New Testament asserting that Jesus was the son of god. And though Muslims have traditionally treated Christians and Jews who lived within their sphere of influence with a bit more deference than pagans (because they were also people of the/a book), Christians who are outside of their sphere of influence are more traditionally part of the Dar Al Harb, the house of war. To have Christians from the Dar Al Harb shooting at Muslims with weapons with Bible verses on them is a bit inflammatory, no?

[PeanutsarePoison]

24. seriously?

would it be less offensive to shoot a muslim with a verse from the Koran or the Catcher in the Rye?

I think this is a ridiculous story, especially when it's a trademark(and I don't mean trademark in the sense that it's protected) of the product itself as part of the business practice.

I don't see the problem with bible verses referencing "the light" on a product designed to kill someone in the dark or in low light

[AtheistCrusader]

36. Every little bit helps as a recruiting tool.

Even if it wasn't true, and just a unfounded rumor, they'll use it. They'll use it even if we strip all these aftermarket sights off every gun we own. Too late now.

[PeanutsarePoison]

38. conversely, it could keep our own boys from being killed with Trijcon Scopes

r

[AtheistCrusader]

83. Yeah, I doubt it.

Assuming they even know the latin alphabet and decimal system, they could just file it off. I doubt they would be shy about using them. Getting the somewhat unusual batteries would probably present a larger challenge to them.

[Festivito]

47. A "little loose" and so you'd risk stirring anger where none was?

There seems no real reason for this uproar except to create fear where none was ever needed. The fear's justification is only a perceived threat. A threat that happens to coincide with some peoples, many DU peoples, desire to eradicate religion altogether.

I did not start this line of thinking with an agenda, but seeing that no one has a good reason at least one they're able to write, I'm developing one.

Accept means accept. They see Jesus as a prophet from a long line of prophets and the Bible as his book and they like prophets.

Thank you for helping me think this through. I appreciate that. Good day.

[ProfessorPlum]

75. Eridicate religion altogether? Hyperventilate much?

Or not turn a conflict into a world-wide religious war?

the award for hyperbole goes to . . . Festivito! Congratulations.

[hmorehead]

46. For once Rachel is wrong. It just does not matter at all, the US has a history of doing just this on

all sorts of weaponry in every single war - patriotic, vitriolic, religous, jingoistic - all sorts of things.BFD.

[ProfessorPlum]

86. By "The US" do you mean American soldiers, who paint and modify their

equipment to have patriotic, vitriolic, religious, and jingoistic messages and symbols on them - which I think is expected and not a big deal.

Or by "The US" do you mean the federal government of the United States doing it (or buying it), as is the case here?

[hmorehead]

87. Amost every soldier, sailor, Marine, flyer and an awful lot of civilian ammo and weapons workers:

Yep. That USA.

[hmorehead]

88. And so what? Some nations give thier weapons names with religous connotation.

[ProfessorPlum]

92. You seem almost overjoyed that the US is allowing Christianity

to be grafted onto its machinery of death.

It would seem that, for you, a war between religions rather than states is to be preferred.

[hmorehead]

96. Probobly not as much as, say Iran, shows in thier jingoism in the naming of thier rockets.

or China - "The Long March" rockets. It just does not matter to me that we are killing women and children with weapons with Bible verses as much as it does that we are doing it at all. Any discussion about the proper references on a weapon dilutes the outrage we should be feeling the murder to begin with.

[MNLeftie]

53. Let Trijicon know how you feel

Here's their Contact Us location
http://www.trijicon.com/contact.cfm

Idiots.

[fascisthunter]

64. man did this bring the roaches out of the wood work or what

this is a prime example of religious fanatics in this country trying to shove their religious pov down everyone's throat. Yet, they play the victim when losing arguments.

The Nazis used religion to inflate their own perception of themselves by claiming god was on their side. To place a bible verse on a weapon is in itself sacrilegious I would think, since god never takes sides, regardless of what any pea-brain wants to believe. So now the Muslims can claim this really is a religious war... I hate fanatics, and I don't care what religion or race they belong to.

[jgraz]

68. Interesting you should mention the Nazis

I was wondering what the reaction would be had Trijicon placed '88' or '14' or another of the skinhead numbers on their scopes.

[AtheistCrusader]

70. What does that mean?

Like, what significance do those two numbers have?

[jgraz]

71. '88' stands for Heil Hitler ('H' is the 8th letter of the alphabet)

14 stands for some 14-word quote which white supremacists like. I'm too lazy to look it up.

[AtheistCrusader]

82. Man, who can keep up with all this bullshit

I don't blame you not looking it up, I don't need to know the secret handshake or whatever it is.

The lengths people go to to preserve hatred... unbelievable.

[hmorehead]

89. The turn of the century French deigners ot the "88" might be surprised by that.

[fascisthunter]

72. the GOP represents a large enough portion of this country so,...

I wouldn't be surprised to read posters defending it.

Then again, some people do not know what those symbols mean. I for one, didn't know about 88's reference until a few years back.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

85. Funniest thing is, when you do a search by author on such roaches...

Page 1: LBN, Some Forum, Some Forum, and Guns.
Page 2: Guns
Page 3: Guns
.
.
.
Page 3,967,976,093: Guns, Some Forum, Some Forum, GD, GD-P.

Guns should be a group instead of a forum, so the trolls would be forced to PAY for being trolls.

[PavePusher]

93. Personal attacks... how touching. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

94. HAHAHAHA! I swear, I wasn't talking about YOU. It was a bunch of OTHER posters with the same pattern

But hey...

[PavePusher]

95. Hmmm. I may have misunderstood you.

If so, I apologise.

And my shoes fit very comfortably, thanks.:evilgrin:

[Lorien]

91. +1.