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How Many Gays Must God Create Before We Accept That He Wants Them Around?

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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 11:21 PM
Original message
How Many Gays Must God Create Before We Accept That He Wants Them Around?
 
Run time: 03:07
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXpOA3jPC04
 
Posted on YouTube: May 02, 2011
By YouTube Member: UpTakeVideo
Views on YouTube: 301
 
Posted on DU: May 03, 2011
By DU Member: Paradoxical
Views on DU: 3384
 
While I feel that the debate on nature vs nurture is somewhat irrelevant to homosexuality or LGBTQ rights, I thought this statement was particularly astute.
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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't think it's irrelevant.
Edited on Mon May-02-11 11:32 PM by EC
It's relevant because there is no choice about orientation, it's the way some are made and they should have civil rights to remain true to themselves.

What is irrelevant here is God.
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Paradoxical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter whether your are born gay or born something else.
Edited on Mon May-02-11 11:34 PM by Paradoxical
It doesn't matter if the person has any say or influence. I don't believe they do. But even if we could choose, who cares?

What matters is that there's nothing wrong with homosexuality.
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DRex Donating Member (531 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I agree. If it's a choice, so be it. Wouldn't change their innate rights. nt.
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sheldon Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Amen!
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. What is irrelevant here is God.
Just wanted to repeat that.




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forty6 Donating Member (849 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. That has to be repeated a few million times, people keep ignoring
Edited on Tue May-03-11 05:36 PM by forty6
the irrelevance of religious beliefs, and keep coming up with more religiously based laws.

Keep religious beliefs out of my government's lawbooks
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. Exactly -- !!! But this is a strong message for those who tote "god" around trying to influence
publcic government!!

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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. it is a very good point
there is no religious justification for this bigotry. hatred of gay people is hatred of God.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
6. For people who are religious, and use faith as their way of
understanding the world, that is an excellent point.
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ScottLand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 04:55 AM
Response to Original message
7. That was very well said.
:applause:
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Moostache Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
9. But, but, but....the gays...the gay agenda....they're coming for my marriage!
Edited on Tue May-03-11 10:11 AM by Moostache
That was an amazingly eloquent summation of the entire issue.

I've come a long way on my own personal journey regarding gay rights and especially gay marriage.
A long time past I was victim not to religious belief but to fearful dogma and ideology that said "gays are less than".

They were less than normal.
They were less than acceptable.
They were less than equal.
And, yes, because of stereotyping and machismo driven foolishness, they were less than human.

I was a victim of being fearful of the unknown, of accepting the idiotic assertions that gay men were all predators and pedophiles.
I was a victim of not thinking for myself and just accepting the idea that there was "a gay agenda". I let the attitudes and thoughts of others color my own views to far too great a degree and it took a considerable amount of time to get all the way over it,

My life and my ideology have evolved over the years and while I once would have considered myself a conservative (mainly in terms of fiscal issues, but without consideration of social issues where I was probably more libertarian for a time), I no longer ascribe to ANY conservative ideology and in fact find it nearly 100% morally bankrupt and repugnant.

Sad to say, and even sadder to remember, but it was the Matthew Sheppard case that finally ended my own journey of self-reflection and turning away from my own past attitudes and towards a broader understanding and acceptance of gays. I had unknowingly lived with a pair of roommates in college that were closeted gay men. They came out after school and initially I had to reflect on my attitudes and beliefs but found that this was the key to understanding the whole "issue".

These were two men whom I had 100% normal, non-sexual, non-morally corrupting relationships with for years. They were friends that I shared meals with, shared laughs with, watched the country pulled into war with (Kuwait - 1991) and went from boys of 1989 to young men of 1993 with as well. The fact that they were of a different sexual orientation gave truth to the lie that there was a subversive "gay agenda" behind them - although it certainly took some of the steam out of my adolescent fantasies of why I was always the one to get the girl at our college parties...lol...not quite the lady killer I imagined after all, more like the last option!

But even after they came out and I came to an acceptance and understanding (NOT of their lives and their orientation but of MY prejudices and ignorance and shameful disregard for a lot of things) of it, I still harbored beliefs that it was better to accept "domestic partnerships" and partial equal rights than to rock the boat and demand full equality. Over time and distance and family life and changes, I've lost touch with them through the years, though when chance and circumstance come around there is no hostility or strangeness to being around them, only reminiscences of the good times and laughs and nothing else is said. The only emotion that their story stirs in me is sadness that I was not a more self-aware and understanding person back then, when they led lives that did not allow them to be 100% open about themselves and the fact that in any small way I was a part of the reason why - not through open hostility or homophobia but through casual jokes and acceptance of such things without vocal condemnation.

But it was the horror of what happened to Matthew Sheppard that really drove the point home for me. Gay people are not subhumans or moral subversives to be marginalized or worse. They are first and foremost human beings and as such they are entitled to every single human right the same as anyone else. To say otherwise is to deny our own humanity and to stunt our own growth and possibilities.

Its not about sex or sex acts or anything else so banal and tangential to the discussion (though for 90+% of homophobic people I have encountered that is about the ONLY thing they can consider - for no more clear examples of this, just Google search the "kill the gays bill Uganda"). The fundamental issue is not about "god" or spirituality or anything else along those lines. Gay men and women are simply put human. And whatever rights or privileges that entails for "straight" people or heterosexual people (or whatever other meaningless label is used) apply equally to all or are cheapened for all.

I am not proud of having been part of the problem in the past, but I am hopeful that I will live long enough to see the solution (EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL) become reality...and absent that, that my own children will definitely grow up in a world fundamentally different than my own with regards to just what "differences" matter amongst us.
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Bosso 63 Donating Member (759 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
10. That's my Representative!
I think his statement directly address's the "logic" of the religious right, and does so with both eloquence and insight.
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swilton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Hope he runs for a national office
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. What's his name -- doesn't show anywhere on video that I could see -- !!
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. His name is...
... Representative Steve Simon (DFL Hopkins/St. Louis Park) says a proposed Minnesota constitutional amendment is largely about religion. He says if sexual orientation is innate as science is showing us, and not a lifestyle choice, then God created gay people. He asks how many gay people must God create before we accept that he wants them around.



from the youtube link.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Thank you -- and CHEERS to Rep. Steve Simon -- !!
Agree this is a religious amendment -- !!
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Beth in MN Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. Rep Steve Simon does Minnesota Proud!! n/t
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Bosso 63 Donating Member (759 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Yes he does, and welcome to the DU!
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Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Wish he were mine. nt
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
12. Wonderful -- !!! Love it -- !! And, whomever this guy is, he's great -- !!
Thank you -- :)

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Stumbler Donating Member (599 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
16. As I've often said, the only "choice" in sexuality
... is if you "choose" to share who you really are with those around you. That's all.

This rep's point was made quite effectively, imo. Great job!
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johnnypneumatic Donating Member (461 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. sadly the argument didn't work
all the repukes voted to approve the amendment

they aren't interested in truth or reason
the republican party is an organized homophobic hate group
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drmjg Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. True, but...
as we have been witness to change in attitude over the past few decades, over tie he will, as he postulates, be correct. I feel, and pray, that we are in the last days of such hateful legislation. I am old enough to recall the fast tracking of some Jim Crow laws in the final days of the civil right push in the 1960's. May the same happen here!
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
20. BRAVO!
This is the way that the reality-based community has to fight against religious bigots - by identifying their belief systems and viewing them in the light of reason.

And we have to REFUSE to fund their schools of indoctrination b/c they are harmful to us as a nation of diff. cultures and beliefs - we must not fund religious extremist education - it makes me sick that pols pander to these idiots through things like the voucher programs for schools.

Public education is the bedrock of democracy.
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drmjg Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
22. Fantastic statement
:fistbump: Simply made me smile at the simplicity of his reasoning. Hard to refute.:fistbump: :fistbump: :fistbump:
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
24. That gentleman said it eloquently and perfectly. REC. nt
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