DU is not fucked.

[grantcart]

Well of course some of the time it is.


Yes it is discouraging that so much of the time the complaints seem to be "reflexive" in nature and "trivializes" the debate - to quote one DUer.

Nevertheless it should be noted that taking a wider view that a lot of the disagreement is histronic in nature and that when it comes to actually policy we are in agreement at DU.

The debate over the Health Care Bill is a clear example.

The current bill is a modest step when compared to other countries. Most of us want a simple single payer system. A lot of heat was generated over a basic disagreement on whether we get to single payer in one big change or by linking smaller changes.

Afghanistan is another area that generates a lot of heat. I have felt alot of that heat in basically supporting the President's policy there. But folks I wouldn't want to participate in a Democratic community where somebody didn't get up and question the reason we are at war. So while some of the arguments are fair and well researched and others more superficial I still embrace the passion.

So what is the challenge for the Obama supporter at DU when it comes to GD and GDP.

If you can't stand the particular heat then keep the fires in BOG warm.

If you can participate in the give and take of GD and GDP (and some days I am just not in the mood) then the imperative is simple:


Raise the quality of the debate and don't let them trivialize DU.


Our mission shouldn't be to defend every single thing that the administration does. The administration has done something that everyone of us disagrees with. We contribute when we elevate the debate with facts and perspective. We should stay engaged without becoming overwhelmed.

If you need to think of a model of a person who stays engaged, is persistent and respectful, is tireless in continuing along a path of progressive reform, anchors his point of view with well researched fact, and never loses their cool, then just keep the President in mind.

[cliffordu]

1. Excellent posty...K&R.....

Guess who's going to be in your town in 2 daze........again....

[NYC_SKP]

3. I'd have responded before you....

...but I put more thought into my reply.

:evilgrin:

So, coming back for more punishment, eh?

:hi:

[cliffordu]

4. Yep - moving fast, gotta take my bro in law to El Lay for a funeral....

In celebration of the oil leak I got a new car. Burn all of it NOW!!!!!

2005 subaru forester 2.5 XT...turbo....fookin awesome. ROAD TRIP!!!!

I'll try to stop in on the way back, will advise....

c

[NYC_SKP]

2. Right on, grantcart.

Hard as it may sometimes be, we need to rise above it.

Just as we know we do in our real lives, the most effective responses are to be rational, reasonable, and, as you suggest, raise the level of the discussion.

:toast:

[cliffordu]

5. Fook me. That ain't what you said in your last lecture, professor...

:rofl:

[NYC_SKP]

6. Oh look, "ignored" wrote something back to me...

:hide:

[cliffordu]

7. Up ya nose widda rubba hose.

:rofl:

My wife loves your ball, by the way.

[treestar]

8. I don't know, I think some of it is in bad faith

Reasoned criticism is one thing, but that is what you never see in GD. They are looking for an excuse to trash the President.

I defend him reflexively because of the way they express themselves, which shows me they are no really concerned about the issue at hand. Or they blatantly exaggerate.

This oil spill really has upped the impossible demands quotient.

If we don't have to defend him reflexively, they do not have to trash him reflexively, which they do.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

9. I'd point to Prosense's thread about Obama being a progressive president...

as proof that it really is fucked. Completely and totally.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. The problem is that they don't care about debate.

They don't care about facts.

They have no perspective.

All they have is an unrealistic agenda that will never be accomplished and a checkbox next to each item. If the box is blank (and it always will be), they're going to wail and moan.

Ultimately though, this place is fucked on the simple premise of what this place is supposed to be - a haven for DEMOCRATS to discuss issues and support DEMOCRATIC candidates. Whereas the tone of DU is so vastly out of step with consistent polling that shows Obama approval at 95+% among liberal Democrats, it's abundantly clear that this is no longer a place for Democrats.

[RoyGBiv]

11. There was a thread last night ...

... that was locked as a call-out of other members, even though it named no one and referred only to "complainers."

It was a thread calling for support of Democrats in the run-up to the November elections despite those who are complaining, suggesting that they could be outnumbered by those of us who genuinely support Democrats as long as we work hard enough. It even pointed to some specific resources.

I would suggest that if a thread like this serves as a "call out" of DU members while thread after thread is started parroting right-wing rhetoric (often verbatim from right-wing sites) without so much as a hiccup, that something is very, *very* wrong here.

And I realize this will get deleted too and that I will be directed to refer my complaints to /dev/null the admins, which is fine, if disappointing.

I'm quite disgruntled. I've gone to the mat for some of the most controversial decisions made with regard to how this site operates. I have made enemies because of it, people who stalk me to this day and throw out random insults because I defended some decision the admins made two years ago that they personally didn't like because it offended their sacred cow. But now the complaint a number of us have is that this place doesn't feel safe for *DEMOCRATS*, and we have to walk on tip-toes just to talk about it amongst ourselves.

Disgruntled ... yeah, that's the word.

[yowzayowzayowza]

13. "LeftistUnderground"

Thatz what one of two DU peeps I know irl said about relying on this site less ... months ago. One of them has since quit entirely. I certainly don't suggest DU to Dems the way I used to. Pols don't seem to show up like they once did either.

Yea, disgruntled and saddened at the waste.

[Arkana]

17. Sometimes, however, I find the responses

from people like me a bit distasteful.

Responses like "YOU NEVER LIKED HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE" may make you feel better, but it's not always true and it often just makes us look bad. Dig up the person's post history from the primaries and check to make sure your claim holds water before you throw that accusation around, and if it doesn't, do like ProSense and grantcart do--go out, do the research, and calmly present evidence in favor of your opinion.

They knee-jerk with ridiculous platitudes and throw around the DLC like it's the Illuminati of the Democratic Party. The way to beat them is to look smarter and BE smarter.

[goclark]

16. There are too many arm chair quarterbacls that

couldn't throw the ball if they wanted to ~


I love a good debate and I love learning new information that will lead to a positive end ~ I just can't stand evildoers.

Thank you BOG for being my Blanket when it gets insane nearby.

[bigwillq]

12. Good post.

:thumbsup:

[goclark]

14. Yes it is a winning post

and the thread is extremely helpful.
Sometimes I feel like the Enemy and I should feel like a member of a Team.

BOG is my Team.

:hug:

[stevenleser]

15. This may be the only time I have disagreed with you.

I have over 80 people on ignore and GD and GDP still look like anti-Obama hatefests to me.

Posts of interesting and useful information, let alone OPs in support of the Prez are on the serious decline.

It's getting so that I dont even want to go to those forums anymore. I never thought that it would be so. Things are BAD.

[Cha]

18. Right..I agree..it's not DU

that's fucked.