The irony with this whole economic bullshit...

[Drunken Irishman]

Is if Obama had really done nothing and the stock market totally collapsed, trickling down to each sector and creating a true depression where unemployment skyrocketed from 7% to 20%, he probably could have gotten a bigger stimulus. Maybe even managed to get a program like what FDR created with the New Deal.

But at what cost? More over, and this is the ironic part, I guess, had we seen the same recovery that came out of the initial recession (remember, we're not technically in a recession anymore), everyone would probably be supporting the recovery effort. Even if we went from 20% unemployment to say only 17% unemployment and the stock market hovered around say 5,000.

It would've been a lot worse than what we've seen right now. But since it would've actually been a true depression in every sense of the word, any type of recovery would be a helpful sign. Now, since he saved our butts in February and March, we didn't go off the deep end and everyone expects 90s-era economic boom.

[quiet.american]

1. Yep. And I'll stop there. You may not be drunk tonite, DI, but I am. nt

[Drunken Irishman]

2. It frustrates me to see people have revisionist history.

Roosevelt was an awesome president. Top three. No question.

But he didn't turn things around in two years. It wasn't until WWII that unemployment actually dropped to a reasonable number. For most his presidency, it was in the teens or just off of that.

If unemployment is in the teens by Nov. 2012, Obama probably won't win.

So it is apples and oranges.

Unemployment during Roosevelt's presidency:

1933: 20.6
1934: 16
1935: 14.2
1936: 9.9

1937: 9.1

1938: 12.5
1939: 11.3

1940: 9.5


1941: 8.0

1942: 4.7
1943: 1.9
1944: 1.2

1945: 1.9

Red - Recession of 1938

Blue - Start of new term

Purple - WWII

At a similar point during Roosevelt's first term, unemployment was still very high. It remained in the teens until his final year of his first term.

Then the recession hit and it skyrocketed once again. It would remain extremely high until the beginning of WWII, where the war effort brought it down to almost zero.

So we get on Obama's ass for high unemployment - but all but the final year of Roosevelt's first year was spent with higher unemployment. Sure, he brought it down almost ten points in a term, but it's not plausible to expect unemployment to stay at a ridiculous number like 20% once even slight economic recovery begins.

Even then, though, it remained high. Then the recession hit at the start of his second term and wiped out a good number of the jobs created during his first.

Instead of hanging Obama for an unemployment rate that seems stagnant (it's not rising) - why not let the entire picture develop?

[Cary]

3. Whenever "conservatives" talk "economics" it's alway revisionist

They want concentration of wealth. For some bizarre reason the masses are supposed to be poor and only those with some kind of undefined divine karma are supposed to prosper. Every piece of their stupid ideology says "tough shit for you".

Actually their whole ideology is revisionist. Their ideas of liberty and freedom are not as faithful to the notions of the Founders as they would have you believe. John Stuart Mill would have never conflated the notions of freedom and lassaize faire capitalism. The Founders rebelled against inherited wealth and privilege.

Further the Founders were a contentious lot and the Constitution was a massive compromise, while compromise is anathema to "conservatives". So it is not a simple matter of interpreting a simple document, as the self proclaimed "strict constructionists" decree.

One could go on and on about their hypocrisy and utter bullshit, but I'll leave you with one final point on it. I have scored big points against "conservatives" by pointing out to them that what they really hate are our grandfathers and great-grandfathers, and driving that point home. I tell them that our grandfathers and great-grandfathers lived through the Great Republican Depression I and WWII, that they knew things and that the legislation they declare as evil was their solution to serious problems. I tell them that our grandfathers and great grandfathers merely built our nation into the richest and greatest nation the world has ever known and they did it by consciously beefing up the middle class. Then I ask them why they hate our grandfathers and great grandfathers.

Try it some time on a puke. They can't handle it. They won't even try to answer you.

[bobburgster]

7. The expectations being placed on Obama are meant to create failure.

That is how I see it. I also believe that millions of Americans are complicit in what is occurring by not using their brains. They seem to be happy being "Unreflective Thinkers", (see link below if interested in more info.) accepting the bile thrown their way on a daily basis. Whether this is laziness or never having learned how to think, the outcome is the same....revisionist history.

http://www.criticalthinking.org/articles/ct-development-a-stage-theory.cfm

[NYC_SKP]

4. I think the real complexity of all of this is beyond most peoples' capacity to understand.

Including my own.

What I'm certain of is that we have for decades practiced unsustainable economic policies and will perish unless we look at things completely differently.

Hard changes are required, anything else is always only a bandaid, a putting off of the inevitable, a distraction.

And, generally, I agree with your observations here, Drunken Irishman.

:hi:

[stevenleser]

10. You are being very diplomatic NYC, but I think you get it and others should too

One glance at the bikini graph, plus all the other horrific statistics at the time the stimulus was passed versus now tells the story. It's that simple and it allows no other interpretation. Obama and his admin have hit this out of the park.

[Born_A_Truman]

5. I hated economics in HS ...

And now in the global economy it's even more confusing to me; however, since the GOP only pushes tax cuts for their base and spending cuts (except corporate spending) it seems to me that more than ever we need to make sure they don't win more seats in the mid-terms.

I firmly believe there could be spending cuts, just not the ones the GOP targets.

[Cary]

6. I was an economics major and loved it.

I should have continued on to a PhD.

[Born_A_Truman]

8. LOL, glad you liked it!

But then, I didn't like many HS courses back in the day. I loved human phisiology in college but my major was broadcasting. Had to have those science courses to graduate.

[Cary]

9. Loved history too.

Hated accounting and finance though. Everyone's different.

[Name removed]

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