TB patient was told not to travel, CDC insists. He disputes that.

[pnwmom]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-tb1jun01,0,702778.story?coll=la-home-center

County health officials knew by May that his tuberculosis was of a drug-resistant variety, although they didn't know whether it was of the most serious type.

They met with Speaker to tell him the severity of his disease and that he should not travel out of the area, Katkowsky said.


But before the health department could deliver an official medical directive, Speaker left for Paris.

Speaker and his wife traveled from Paris to Athens, then to two Greek islands. "We headed off to Greece thinking everything's fine," the man told the Atlanta paper.

SNIP

[Kagemusha]

1. It sounds like Speaker is lawyering this very very narrowly.

He's basically saying, yeah, they told him not to travel, but they didn't tell him with an official formal medical directive.

I thought other stories citing the man's own words that he feared that he would be stuck in Europe and decided to sneak back into the US, fully established that he was aware the CDC was trying to stop him.

[pnwmom]

4. I really don't think he can justify why he insisted on flying to Europe

to get married instead of just doing it here. He's known about this since January!

[AZBlue]

35. And what kind of jerk knowingly leaves all his friends and family open to contamination?

Forget about the other passengers and travellers for a minute (obviously he did) - what about everyone he came into contact with at the wedding????

[WinkyDink]

73. Did he not even care about his BRIDE?!

[napi21]

2. I asked on another thread, why he wasn't quaranteened ?

If he was such a threat to the passengers on the plane, why wasn't he that same threat to the general public wherever he went every day? I'm not trying to make lite of this matter, but something just doesn't make sense to me.

[LisaL]

3. First of all I don't think US quarantines many people, or

even has a law allowing for such unless the patient is not following treatment.
And second of all the Drs. did not know he had the most deadly kind of TB until he left for Europe.

[tyedyeto]

13. In AZ, this man is quarantined and treated as if he is a mass murderer.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/06/142246&mode=thread&tid=25

27-year-old Robert Daniels is being held against his will in a Phoenix hospital ward reserved for sick prisoners. If state officials have their way, he could be there for the rest of his life. Daniels is suffering from a deadly strain of tuberculosis known as XDR-TB. Doctors say he is virtually untreatable. He has been forced to live in a hospital cell in complete isolation.

Daniels contracted the disease while living in Russia. He returned to the United States last year and agreed to a voluntary quarantine in residential care. But Daniels violated his agreement when he went outside without a mask. Daniels says he misunderstood how much of a health risk he posed, in part because he hadn't been forced to wear a mask in Russia.

Today, Daniels has been forced to live in a hospital cell in complete isolation. His only visitors are medical staff. Sheriff's deputies have taken away his television, radio, phone and computer. He is under 24-hour surveillance and the light in his room is never turned off, even at night. His only contact to the outside world is a pay-phone. Daniels recently described his ordeal in a phone interview with the Arizona radio station KJZZ.

[LisaL]

15. They did not quarantine him at first either.

He wouldn't wear his mask and only then they decided to quarantine him.

[tyedyeto]

18. Is this typical of being quarantined?

Today, Daniels has been forced to live in a hospital cell in complete isolation. His only visitors are medical staff. Sheriff's deputies have taken away his television, radio, phone and computer. He is under 24-hour surveillance and the light in his room is never turned off, even at night. His only contact to the outside world is a pay-phone.

Why lights 24/7? Why no TV? Why no radio? Why no phone?

Where did he contact this strain and is there aconnection between him and the
Atlanta lawyer?

[LisaL]

19. Seems Daniels contracted it in Russia.

The Atlanta lawyer probably contracted his in Asia, considering he had been visiting there.

[tyedyeto]

23. You still ignored my initial question about being quarantined.

Why lights 24/7? Why no TV? Why no radio? Why no phone?

I can see the 'no visitor' rule but the others :shrug:

Is this typical? Aer these precautions happening at this point with the Atlanta lawyer? if not,why? Since the strain seems to be the same one.

[LisaL]

25. HTF would I know that?

HTF would I know what is typical and what is not?
I've never quarantined anyone.

[Big Pappa]

45. Has he had

behavioral problems at the hospital? I have no idea but that is what I would suspect.

[pnwmom]

61. Quarantines like this are extremely unusual. The ACLU just filed suit

in the Daniels case.

Apparently there is no reason for the lights, the lack of TV, radio, and phone, except that is how the sheriff handles all the prisoners on the prison ward, and he's not willing to treat this guy any differently -- even though he is being confined civilly (not criminally) and he hasn't been convicted of anything.

Is the same thing happening with the Atlanta lawyer, Mr. Speaker? Nope. He's been sent to the top hospital in the country for handling serious contagious lung diseases, a hospital that is actually not far away (in Denver). The Denver hospital has handled two other quarantine cases of the same strain of TB in the last five years, and has been handling contagious TB for more than a century.

Why is Mr. Daniels stuck in a prison ward in Phoenix when there is a better, safer, more humane facility nearby? My guess is that the state of Arizona is too cheap to pay for his treatment out of state.

[Bridget Burke]

66. Ask his lawyer.....

County health authorities obtained a court order to lock him up as a danger to the public because he failed to take precautions to avoid infecting others. Specifically, he said he did not heed doctors’ instructions to wear a mask in public.

“I’m being treated worse than an inmate,” Daniels said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press last month. “I’m all alone. Four walls. Even the door to my room has been locked. I haven’t seen my reflection in months.” ....

Daniels has been living alone in a four-bed cell in Ward 41, a section of the hospital reserved for sick criminals. He said sheriff’s deputies will not let him take a shower — he cleans himself with wet wipes — and have taken away his television, radio, personal phone and computer. His only visitors are masked medical staff members who come in to give him his medication. ....

County health officials and Daniels’ lawyer, Robert Blecher, would not discuss details of the case. But in general, (Doctor) England said the county would not force someone into quarantine unless the patient could not or would not follow doctor’s orders.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17915965/wid/11915773/

So--they took away his phone, but he's somehow been talking to the media. Why doesn't his lawyer speak up?

The case definitely needs attention. But the guy refused to wear a mask in public.

[live love laugh]

24. I don't undertand no radio/tv either. That is excessive isolation. nt

[Kagemusha]

39. You've gotta be kidding me. If he'd been in a more advanced stage,

his antics could've resulted in a lot of people being killed. Killed. As in dead. Every bit as surely as if he'd shot them in the head with a revolver. Not everyone, certainly, but the guy took insane measures, probably out of denial since he's not physically invalid from the disease (yet). I'm no expert but I *know* that he's not the first nor will he be the last to do such a thing; it's pretty maddening stuff to organizations like the CDC and WHO, but people have done this sort of thing before. It's a known danger to civilization. And this guy, unfortunately, simply did not resist those impulses and could have put an awful lot of people in danger.

And the more time passes, the greater a danger he is to everyone else, given his past actions.

I don't understand the no radio/tv part, but denying him a phone? Yes, that, I understand. It's harder to plot an escape that way. The possibility he might try to do so can't be discounted at all. The time for good faith's long gone.

[pnwmom]

47. The ACLU filed suit today on his behalf. I think they make a strong case.

In its complaint, the ACLU argues that the county has failed to implement procedures on how to humanely quarantine sick patients for lengthy periods of time, and in an effort to cut costs deliberately failed to explore alternative locations in which to quarantine Daniels. Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio publicly stated that in the interest of security he would treat any person housed in the jail ward in the same manner as all other jail inmates.

Like jailed inmates accused of crimes, Daniels is subjected to intrusive strip searches and he is unable to receive any visits from family and friends. He isn’t permitted to exercise or walk outside, and has no access to social or recreational activities like the Internet. He has been outside only once in the past nine months, and was shackled hand and foot. The lights in his cell are required to be kept on at night, and video cameras record his every move. He can’t see through the frosted windows in his room and wasn’t able to shower or call anyone until a few weeks ago.

“It’s psychologically damaging to exist in a vacuum without meaningful activities or opportunities to interact with others,” said ACLU of Arizona cooperating attorney Linda Cosme. “By placing Robert Daniels in these deplorable conditions, the county clearly has no intention of helping him get better. For years, they’ve been aware of the need to create an adequate quarantine area for extremely ill patients, yet they’ve chose to ignore the needs of some of the most vulnerable people in Maricopa County in favor of harsh, jail-like conditions for people who are sick and accused of no crimes.”


http://www.aclu.org/privacy/gen/29941prs20070531.html

[Kagemusha]

49. I have no problem with better quarantine facilities!

But in the absence of them, to treat this guy, at this point, with the slightest bit of allowance for goodwill would be dangerous to the general security and health of the public. Even if the county needs to eat a lawsuit over it. Right now, this case constitutes an emergency. I'd love to see better quarantine facilities. I really would. But not at the cost of an untreatable TB epidemic. Surely the ACLU understands that... without sarcasm, I expect that they do.

[pnwmom]

51. But there ARE better quarantine facilities!

And probably safer ones, where the air quality is controlled (there was nothing about that in the articles, so I don't know.)

There were only two other patients with this type of TB in the U.S. last year, and both of them were confined in a treatment facility in Colorado that has had decades of experience in this sort of thing. It is the same hospital where the "new" case, Andrew Speaker, was flown for his isolation and treatment. (Speaker was just as guilty as Daniels of exposing other people to his TB, by the way.)

Probably the state of Arizona is too cheap to pay for the costs of treating Mr. Daniels in Colorado.

[Kagemusha]

54. If it's just a matter of being cheap, hope the ACLU wins this then

I knew there had to be better facilities somewhere but I didn't personally know where. So thanks for that information.

There's been too much stupidity involved in this case already.

[pnwmom]

57. Here's an article about the place where the luckier quarantined patients go.

http://www.theolympian.com/national/story/121849.html

"The hospital has been around since 1899 - before the advent of antibiotics and when people still believed the fresh air of Colorado could help cure them - and has an entire research department devoted to the biologic origins of disease. It was also rated by U.S. News & World Report as the nation's top respiratory hospital nine straight years.

"The hospital has treated this particular strain of TB on two other occasions since 2000 and is currently treating other TB patients at the hospital.

"He is very, very low contagious," hospital spokeswoman Geri Renary said. "It's something to be very careful with and that's why we're ensuring not only his care, but making sure people don't have to fear coming here. It's a remote but not it's not a zero possibility (of contracting TB). People around him are wearing masks, but he's not highly contagious by any means."

[Kagemusha]

81. Something's not making sense to me at all re: later developments.

From a The Guardian article tonight:

"Amid mounting hysteria over the possibility that he infected hundreds of others on his travels, there were worries about the country's ability to protect itself from potential biological pandemics. Mr Speaker is now beginning his treatment for XDR TB, an extremely drug-resistant strain of the disease, in a Denver hospital."

...Um, would this possibly be the hospital to which you are referring? And what does this do tho the lawsuit I wonder?

[Big Pappa]

56. Does he state why he was handcuffed?

If he had been on good behavior I doubt the handcuffs. I really am curious as to know if this guy is a security risk.

[pnwmom]

58. From what I understand, the sheriff insists on treating him

the way he does all his other prisoners. Even though he isn't technically a prisoner, because he is confined civilly, and hasn't been convicted of any crime. That's also why he isn't allowed a TV set, a radio, etc.

[Big Pappa]

59. I understand,

but are regular inmates cuffed to their bed as a routine basis?

[pnwmom]

60. This is a hospital prison ward. I have heard of women who were cuffed

to their beds in these wards while they were giving birth!

Nothing in any of the articles I read about Mr. Daniels indicated that he was a "problem prisoner," once he was put in the facility. Nothing indicated why they were using shackles on him -- but, as I said, I don't think that is unusual when a sheriff has prisoners kept outside of an actual jail cell.

[Big Pappa]

63. You may be right.

I just find this a little unusual. As a RN we have many isolation patients even a few every year with active TB. None of our are ever cuffed unless they were already a convicted criminal. I just do not have enough info on all this yet.

[Kagemusha]

76. Well he was a problem patient before they got a hold of him.

Very problem. Not that be broke any laws (that they can enforce...) but he was behaving in a way that was definitely creating risk for the public at large.

Having said that, basically, I see the matter as public necessity vs. public non-necessity. If it's necessary to keep the guy in prison conditions, keep him in prison conditions. If it's NOT, that changes the whole story. Not this business of "well he hasn't been convicted of a CRIME". No, he's just wantonly put the public at risk in a way that's not technically overtly criminal. But if there is a better facility (and according to the above respondent, there most certainly is, in Colorado), it is no longer necessary to keep the guy in prison conditions - so why do it?

At the very least, the prison conditions do not strike me as a long-term solution for a soon-to-be-not-short-term problem.

[spoony]

86. If he leaves, he might become a mass murderer

[pnwmom]

5. At first they didn't realize that he had this deadly strain.

They knew he had some form of TB, but they thought it was under control and the risk of contagion was low. When they realized what he had, they decided to isolate him.

We are lucky that this man isn't sick yet and coughing. But if he DID manage to infect someone anyway, that person (depending on his or her immune system) could get very sick very quickly and infect dozens of people.

[napi21]

6. Can you even imagine how his new FIL is feeling now?

He works for the CDC on TB research, and Mr. Speaker was on his honeymoon with HIS daughter!

[LisaL]

8. From what I understand, FIL knew Mr. Speaker had TB

before Mr. Speaker and the daughter went on the honeymoon.

[napi21]

9. I think that's right, but if I worked on a specific disease, and therefore

KNEW all it's terrible side effects, I would be CRAZY if my daughter was even dating let alone marrying someone diagnosed with that disease, let alone finding out it was the worst possible strain! I just saw the FIL on our nightly news, and he was very controlled and positive, but I can't believe that behind the public scene, he's not screaming!!!! If this strain of T is as bad as is being publicized, his own daughter has been sentenced to death!

[LisaL]

12. FIL works with the bacterium.

Maybe he is not as squeamish as you think.
Would you work with a deadly bacterium?
No matter bio safety levels and all the precautions in the world, don't you think there are risks involved in that kind of work?

[Kagemusha]

14. Depends on if I had one of those spacesuits or not.

I don't think these docs want to become one of those cases where you get infected with an incurable disease through a lab accident and you get isolated, you make a diary, document your own wasting death and become a medical trivia question.

[LisaL]

17. Nobody wants that.

But if there was no risk, why do you think FIL would be regularly tested for TB?
Dah.

[Kagemusha]

20. For the general safety and peace of mind of the public?

No, couldn't be that.

[LisaL]

21. They don't test you regularly for the general safety and peace

of mind, do they?

[Kagemusha]

33. Dunno what your point is. I never argued the risk is zero.

Someone else must be arguing that to you. The idea's silly. Even if say, the risk is zero if all procedures are followed and no accidents occur, those are ifs that they would want to cover through testing to be absolutely certain. Why wouldn't they?

[TZ]

65. I worked in a lab where TB was a possibility...

and I was checked regularly even though we had safety precautions put in. Its done as an extra precaution. I also know people who worked in high containment (biosafety level 4) with the bubble suits and there are loads and loads and loads of precautions in these labs. One of my friends, and former bosses worked with EBOLA and MARBURG two of the deadliest viruses in the world, for years. They are two of the healthiest people I know. Lets not forget if there was a breach of containment in would be the FATHER IN LAW sick, and he's clean. An uninfected person cannot transmit it! PS- facilities like the CDC do not allow any unauthorized people in the lab areas so he would never have been in there either.

[napi21]

22. I never said he was sqeamish. All I meant was could you live with

the fact that your own daughter has been given a death sentence because of her choice of men?

[LisaL]

26. First of all, the daughter is not infected as of now.

So, what death sentence are you talking about?
As for choice of men-it's a communicable disease. You are acting as if it's this guy's fault he caught it. It's not an STD, it's transmitted by air.
Certainly the guy shouldn't have traveled, but how is he at fault for having caught it?

[napi21]

29. OK, now you have me completely confused!

You say the daughter is not infected, but all I've heard was that this is an extremely comunicable disease, spread through the air. I don't think I'm stupid is believing that there was a lot more than air comunication between this man and his new bride on their honeymoon. If the CDC is so concerned that they have the guy in quaranteen in Denver now, why shouldn't I conclude that their intimate relationship has already transmitted the TB to his new wife?

And I never saud it was the guys fault for having caught it! Where did you get that idea?

[LisaL]

30. Yes, you are confused. TB is not an STD.

[napi21]

32. I didn't say it was an STD, but everyone else says it's transmitted

through the air, or with physical contact.

[Kagemusha]

34. The guy was in really early stages, low transmissibility.

Why the CDC would want to wait until the situation got much worse is utterly beyond me. What would we think of the CDC if it had? Thank god they did. This way, even all the hell they went through to get a hold of this guy to isolate him shouldn't result in anyone dying. Hopefully. And the wife will still be tested, I'm sure.

I only found out about the early stage part (though I'd guessed) well after my first replies on this thread, incidentally. I just felt it helpful to point this out now that the CDC has said so.

[pnwmom]

42. Yes, it's transmitted through the air, but the man doesn't appear to be

coughing -- which is how it's transmitted. Plus, he has no fever and they don't measure high levels of virus in his blood (which would correlate to how much would be in his cough.)

[pnwmom]

41. It's likely fatal IF you have it, but this man doesn't appear to be

very contagious -- at least at this point in time.

If he had a fever and a cough, or they measured higher levels of virus in his blood, then they'd be more worried about other people's risk.

The problem is that if, against the odds, he did manage to infect someone -- someone with a poorer immune system sitting behind him on the plane -- that person could become highly contagious much more quickly and infect many people in a short period of time.

[WinkyDink]

74. He is QUARANTINED. THAT = "very contagious", does it not?!

[Kagemusha]

77. Yeah I don't think the CDC has any reason to be lax here at all...

Because

a) if he's not all that contagious now, he WILL be
b) And then what happens when someone else gets infected with untreatable TB?

And if they 'lose' him again and THEN he becomes much more contagious, their ability to control the situation and protect the public takes a giant nosedive.

[pnwmom]

40. As far as they know, she has not been infected -- so she may not ever be.

The risk appears to be low and if she has a strong immune system, she might be lucky. But if I were her parent, I would be very worried -- you couldn't help but be.

[pnwmom]

38. And he also tried to talk them into not going. n/t

[pnwmom]

37. No, I can't. I'd say they've started off on the wrong foot. n/t

[Kagemusha]

7. They tried. By the time they knew how bad it was, he was on the lam

It's not good that they failed. You could write half a movie about this. The other half would be about deadly consequences far in excess of what seems to be happening in real life in this case - no thanks to Speaker.

[gatorboy]

10. I think I saw that movie.

It was called, "The Stand".

[AlCzervik]

11. a border inspector was canned for ignoring the computer warning---

Thursday May 31, 2007
ATLANTA - A globe-trotting Atlanta lawyer with a dangerous strain of tuberculosis was allowed back into the U.S. by a border inspector who disregarded a computer warning to stop him and don protective gear, officials said today.

The inspector has been removed from border duty.

The unidentified inspector explained that he was no doctor but that the infected man seemed perfectly healthy and that he thought the warning was merely "discretionary," officials briefed on the case told The Associated Press. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the matter is still under investigation.

yeah ok there Bill Frist, if you say so.

more at link
http://www.dailymail.com/display_story.php?sid=2007053133&format=prn

[orleans]

16. crazy...his father-in-law works at the cdc...

so, conspiracy theories abound (in my head, anyway)

[Laurier]

27. .

Sorry, I posted my response to the OP in the wrong spot so I fixed that and deleted it here.

[pnwmom]

43. It has all the makings of a medical/political thriller.

A new genre!

[TZ]

64. Actually I think thats what made this guy so damn cocky

His father-in-law probably told him that TB can be hard to transmit in public, so the guy took that as a blank check to do what ever he wanted. I also heard his father in law says he never told him it was okay to travel, who knows maybe father in law told him it wasn't a good idea to go, but was ignored.The guy's a lawyer and they tend to be pretty arrogant sometimes. As for the theory of getting the TB from the father in law, as someone who worked in a lab where TB was a possible pathogen can I say I have never heard of any lab worker getting TB from the lab or passing it on to others. There is very close monitoring of that kind of thing.

[Laurier]

28. What gives with people who know that they have communicable diseases

travelling when they know that they could spread the disease to others?

I've never quite understood such inherent selfishness and disregard for others.

Maybe it's just me.

[Eurobabe]

53. No it's not just you, it was my first thought immediately

what a selfish little fuckhead this guy was -- planes are total germ factories anyhow, then you add some loon with TB on an airtight can of aluminum?

Let's infect the world!

[rec_report]

31. The US gov't let him travel, to generate an outcry - here's why:

Did US allow TB-infected man to travel, to get EU to turn over passenger data in future?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1017162&mesg_id=1017162

[Kagemusha]

36. I'll say again, that's bonkers. The EU would gladly turn over data on a TB-infected man

I imagine the WHO requires it of all its members and it'd be flat out insane for the EU not to do so. In other words, the US already had every right and freedom to ask for the data on this particular individual.

[rec_report]

44. Not this one case - see that other thread - the gov't wants the EU to...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1017162&mesg_id=1017162 <--This one

turn over passenger data on EVERYONE, all the time - they have refused, thus far, over privacy concerns.
Polar Bear

[Kagemusha]

48. You are not listening. The two have nothing to do with each other.

The US cannot use this case to blackmail the EU into providing information that the US ALREADY HAS A RIGHT TO GET FOR THE SAKE OF WORLD HEALTH. Sorry to shout but this is important. I see no reason why the US can say, "Give this to us our else!" when the US is gonna get it anyway, without wholesale changes to passenger data for eveyone else. I simply do not see how the two can be linked.

Edit: Already read the other thread and found it wanting.

[Sanctified]

46. Someone has to be really stupid to think "everything is fine" after being told they have TB.

Seriously, I would rather hear from my doctor that I have testicular cancer over TB.

[live love laugh]

55. Wow. You prefer cancer to TB?

I must be ignorant about TB. It seems to cause such a panic in people as many here are extremely alarmed. I know in the early part of the last century there were TB sanitoriums and the disease was rampant. In fact, my mother had it. She's doing fine and has lived a long, healthy life. So, knowing who she is and how healthy she is, I just do not get your kind of reaction. Of course, the reaction to the deadlier strain is understandable but that has not always been present and the incidence is very low.

[Sanctified]

72. Without a doubt I would take cancer.

I can't give cancer to my wife or kids.

[BlooInBloo]

85. Not to the wife, but it's heritable. You could give it to *all* of your descendents...

... And that worst case could NEVER happen with TB.

[DemBones DemBones]

50. Did you read this?

"He will not be able to take his customary jogs. He'll have few visitors. His only view of the outside world will be a patch of grass and a few patio chairs. The antibiotics used to treat him may cause severe nausea, seizures, hearing loss and kidney problems. Still, his attending physician, Dr. Gwen Huitt, said Speaker was in good spirits."

Those side effects may take Mr. I'm-So-Important-Who-Cares-About-Other-People's-Health down a peg or two. I can't believe such irresponsibility, after being told not to fly.

I think people in general are too blase about TB today, not realizing that it's been on the rise for years.

So I guess the upside of this idiot's jet-setting will be to have people realize TB still exists and is potentially very dangerous.

[pnwmom]

52. It does sound as if he's in for a shock, once reality sets in with the

side effects of his new meds.

People are too casual about bacterial infections in general, ever since we've had antibiotics. But as more and more resistant strains develop, we're going to have to start taking diseases like TB, pneumonia, and many others a lot more seriously. Even things like sinus infections and tooth infections can kill a person in the absence of antibiotics.

[MonkeyFunk]

67. Most "possible" side effects

don't occur. He's unlikely to suffer any of those problems.

[KittyWampus]

83. Adverse reactions to pharmaceutical drugs is a LEADING cause of death in the US

[kitty1]

82. Does anyone know how he contracted TB to begin with? n/t

[SoCalDem]

62. He had a wedding coming up and as long as he "felt good" he was going to go

doctor or no doctor.. I know how young people think.. And he probably did not want to lose the money for non-refundable tickets & reservations.

I know of people who have been cautioned not to fly when they have a sinus infection..and not even contagious..

My husband's comment? "I think the guy's father-in-law slipped him some TB germs..maybe he's not all that crazy aout the guy his dear daughter married ":rofl:

[MonkeyFunk]

68. Yeah

he just smuggled some TB out of the lab without infecting himself, and gave it to the guy with no concern for his own daugher's health.

[NorthernSpy]

69. but he's in his thirties!

He had a wedding coming up and as long as he "felt good" he was going to go doctor or no doctor.. I know how young people think.. And he probably did not want to lose the money for non-refundable tickets & reservations.

But this guy is over thirty! He's not a kid. I really wouldn't expect judgement this bad from an intelligent, respectably-employed adult.

[SoCalDem]

71. But..hey!.. 30 is the "new" 20.

:rofl:

[blondeatlast]

79. Make that 13--at least in this case. nt

[DemBones DemBones]

84. I'd guess a lot of us have thought the same!

Realistically, I think the father-in-law wouldn't throw his reputation away like that, or put his daughter at risk, but it's an odd coincidence.

[erpowers]

70. Do Not Believe Him

I do not believe him for many reasons. I think he is just a brat who did not want to be told what to do. First, he was told he should not travel. He does admit that the CDC told him that, but he goes on to claim that his father asked the CDC official if they were telling his son that just to cover their butts and the CDC officials said they were trying to cover their butts. Next the TB guy (Andrew Speaker) claimed that the CDC was lying when they claimed that they told him not to take a commerical flight home. Right after that he claimed that he took a commerical flight because a private flight would have cost $100,000, the CDC was not going to pay for the flight, and he could not raise that much money in such a short period of time. First, if the CDC did not tell him not to fly commerical then why did he look up prices of private flights. Second, this guy and his dad are both personal injury attonries, they could have easily gotten $100,000. Beyond that Speaker keeps claiming that all he wanted to do was to get to Denver. Recently his wife said they flew to Canada because they knew they were on the no-fly-list. However, if he was so concerned with getting home why did he not just fly straight to Denver. As far as I know he and his wife flew to Prague, then to France, and then to Canada. So, it seems to me that this guy just did not want to change his plans regardless of what anyone said or what could have happened to anyone else. Now he and his wife seem to just be trying to do damage control.

[MS68]

75. Antibiotics Abuse...

And instead of using this as an opportunity to educate the general public about the repercussions of not taking all of your antibiotics or demanding that the doctor give them antiobiotics for a cold and the prevalent use of anti-bacterial soaps and cleaners, Elizabeth Cohen on CNN talked about how the bacteria are getting smarter and it's like they're having conferences to figure out how to outsmart people and survive. I kept waiting of her to talk about antibiotics abuse, but she left it at that.

Ummm..it's not that the bacteria are so smart, it's that people are so dumb, and we're killing off the weak strains and creating super strains that are now antiobitoic resistant!

[Kagemusha]

78. Well it's both. The bacteria are impressive survivors. And we humans are dumb.

Both go hand in hand.

[blondeatlast]

80. Very much agree with you there.

Welcome to DU! :toast: