Chavez and Broadcasting: Myths and Facts

[burrowowl]

See: Myths and Facts About the Radio Caracas Television Case at
http://www.embavenez-us.org/RCTVFactSheetFinal_2007.pdf

It is only 3 pages long.

[EFerrari]

1. Good catch, burrowowl.

:kick:

[Gabi Hayes]

3. don't dare confuse the dogmatic kneejerkers around here with actual material provided

by sources other than their beloved M$M

the same ones they deride because of the way they cover for you know who

you've noticed, no doubt, that very rarely are sources cited (even then most of them the likes of Datanalisis), only the most scabrous vituperation, along with CERTAIN projections of his future assent to dictatorship. those are the ones who haven't already ceded dictatorial powers to him, despite his election by greater margins than almost every US president, and under extremely rigid international supervision, including handcounting of a large percentage of the ballots

sorry for wasting time on matters of dogma, though

[Rage for Order]

50. From the government of Venezuela? Are you serious?

So the government that forced the station off the air puts out talking points in order to convince people that what they did wasn't a bad thing, and this is supposed to be persuasive? They contradict themselves several times. From the "article":

80% of Venezuela's publicly available TV stations and radio broadcasters are privately owned and operated. All of the country's 118 newspapers are privately owned and operated.

It then goes on to say that RCTV did not air stories that the coup was failing, thereby denying the people of their right to be informed.

So which is it? How were the people denied their right to be informed if there are 118 newspapers in the country, and there are all these other stations to choose from? Was RCTV the only place to get information? From the sound of this "article", apparently not because they assure us that the free press is vibrant and doing a great job. Jesus, they can't even get their propaganda right.

[gravity]

2. Are you serious?

That's from the government that shut down the TV station in the first place.

[Gabi Hayes]

4. care to restate your assertion accurately?

you might persuade somebody that you knew what you were talking about if you got your basic facts straight

[gravity]

6. It's state sponsored propaganda

Of course they are going to say that they were right.

[burrowowl]

14. If the FCCfollowed the principle

that the airwaves are owned by the People (which they are) and not Corporations and followed the Fairness Doctrine killed by Ray-Gun, less money would be needed for campaigns since as a public service for the priviledge of broadcating (and making mucha moola) they would have to give all candidates equal time and more than 30 seconds!

[Taverner]

27. Two wrongs don't make a right

Three illegal right turns make a left however...

[EFerrari]

5. LOL! And the hits keep coming.

They were not shut down. Their license was not renewed.

They participated in the attempted overthrow of the elected government.

What should Chavez do, give them a cookie?

:rofl:

[Codeine]

7. The "bad" coup, of course.

The other coup was just fine. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

9. There is no comparison. Get a clue. n/t

[originalpckelly]

10. You are aware that Chavez tried to overthrow a leftwing President?

Or am I not getting something right here? (Bad, bad, bad play on words! :spank:)

[EFerrari]

12. No, you are not getting it right. Again. n/t

[originalpckelly]

17. So the DA or AD in spanish is not a party affiliated with Socialist International?

Yes, Perez tried neo-liberal crap, but he was DA(AD).

By your standards it would have been ok for Chavez to overthrow President Clinton.

And by the way, the planning for the 1992 coup attempt started way back in the early 80s, before the demonstrators were killed.

[EFerrari]

31. Could you stay on topic with a map. Sorry, Kelly. n/t

[originalpckelly]

37. No, I want to know, did Chavez try to overthrow someone nominally on the left?

Yes.

You've made it sound like he tried to overthrow a rightwinger or something, he didn't. And then you move on to the killings of those protesters, but the problem with that reasoning is that he started planning for the '92 coup in the early '80s before that awful mass killing happened, even before Perez second term!

I'm trying to get people to understand that this is not exactly the devotee of democracy he says he is, he was completely willing to do something undemocratic and unconstitutional in Venezuela, as well as being illegal, and he intended to steal power for himself. That sort of thing doesn't go away over night or even in the couple years he served in prison.

I think it's a pretty disturbing historical parallel that Hitler tried the same damn thing, he had his putsch then he went to prison. The putsch and prison time made even more popular, and then he supposedly decided to go clean and do it all the legal and democratic way. We all know how that story ends.

I don't think it's really possible, and I don't think it's wise to elect someone who's been involved in something so undemocratic. It's just goes against commons sense at some point.

And another thing, why is this all about him? Why he cast in such a savior light?

If this is really more about the people, then I don't think there should just be one leader here.

Say you want about the American revolution, but there were a ton of different people involved and admired, not just one man. Maybe George Washington was the most popular of the group, the prom king, but he wasn't the only person forwarding those ideas, and he wasn't the only person that symbolized the revolution.

The problem is that Chavez is forming a personality cult, and somehow he's managed to get good people around the world who don't even live in his country to support him. I think that's the scariest part of all this.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. Did Chavez abandon that path after the failed coup?

Why yes he did. And since then he has taken the path of working within the democratic institutions of Venezuela. Since then he has been elected and re-elected with huge majorities in internationally observed fair elections, a claim to legitimacy that our own leaders simply cannot make. What really hurts you anti-bolivarians is how damn popular the bolivarian movement is. Be honest, it just gnaws at you, doesn't it?

[Warren Stupidity]

21. nominally leftwing

In the real world the plutocracy was firmly in charge and the nominally leftwing party was their version of our own tweedledum-tweedledee duoploly game. But you probably knew that.

At anyrate, Chavez did not exactly get off without punishment, he was in fact imprisoned. So getting back to the point here: why should RCTV have its license renewed after having eagerly participated in the failed CIA sponsored coup attempt?

[originalpckelly]

28. The point is really hypocrisy, the fact that certain individuals who support Chavez...

rather unquestioningly have selective standards.

"our own tweedledum-tweedledee duoploly game"
Would you want someone to use that as an excuse to overthrow a Democratic President?

I don't think so.

I bring up the coup attempt not to criticize whether or not Chavez was punished for this, but to point out that this guy doesn't exactly have the greatest background to be a leader of a truly democratic revolution.

And now back to the point of this thread.

I don't really care what the station did, I don't fear the speech of controversial or even criminal people. People shouldn't be shut up because they did something wrong, something I hold true for Chavez as well.

I could understand undertaking a criminal prosecution against the company or against the owners of the company. That makes sense, but this isn't that. People are making allegations and then using those allegations as a piece of proof to shut someone down. Accusation is not proof, and conviction depends upon due process and evidence in most civilized and democratic nations.

[cacamp]

49. or do it bush style

he bombed and strafed Al Jezeera when he didn't like them. All Chavez did was not renew a license to known violators. He didn't have to jail anyone to find that they had violated their license and had to be turned off.

[Mandate My Ass]

54. Hammer, meet nail right on head

:thumbsup:

Welcome to DU, cacamp. :hi:

[burrowowl]

85. Good replique!

Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Warren Stupidity]

58. Which part of "he was imprisoned" do you not understand?

Chavez was punished. Now why exactly should RCTV not be punished? Where is the hypocrisy? Seems to be over in your court.

[MonkeyFunk]

73. Chavez was charged, tried and convicted

nobody at RCTV was ever even charged.

[Codeine]

19. Of course there's no comparison.

The Blessed Saint Chavez's coup was by the Lord's Own Hand. :eyes: How could I have been so blind?

[originalpckelly]

24. You know, I always thought the person they tried to overthrow was a reichwinger...

the person was the American equivalent of Bill Clinton, because Clinton also had neo-liberal economic policies. I don't agree with them, but I'm certainly not going to think that's a reason to overthrow our government.

Now it's true that same guy that Chavez tried to overthrow in '92 was highly unpopular and had his military forces shoot and kill thousands of protesters, so I think that is awful I don't think the fella ought to have been in power, but there are more legal solutions to that. The Perez fella was impeached eventually and now the crook lives in FL.

The most important thing to remember is that Chavez started planning for his coup attempt before Perez was even elected, and a number of years before the mass protester killings occurred. It is my conclusion that Chavez merely used the unpopular status of the President at that time, not out of true sentiment, but out of a realization that he could use that mass killing as an excuse to get into power.

[Warren Stupidity]

59. So you also read minds?

Amazing how you can just peer into the mind of Chavez to understand his true intentions. He might indeed be just another military dictator, another false populist on the left, I actually don't know what is in his head. From what I have read, the situation before the 92 coup was pretty shitty, including the mass killings of protestors and indeed the left wing populist faction in the military (quite different from the nominally left wing party that Perez represented that was in fact by '92 just another corrupt arm of the plutocracy) led by Chavez had been plotting a coup for a while. Their coup failed. Chavez went to jail for a while (a fact you elsewhere intend to ignore as it is massively inconvenient to your hypocrisy argument) and appears to have rethought his strategy and chosen the path of electoral politics rather than the more traditional latin american military coup. For that change he gets no credit from you. The fact that he came out of jail determined to implement his bolivarian democratic socialist reforms through the electoral process rather than at gunpoint is it seems to you evidence of his bad intentions, proof of just how bad he is. How many elections does he have to win before you accept that this is a democratic process, a popular left wing socialist reform movement?

[High Plains]

69. Do you actually have anything of substance to say?

Please come back when you do.

[Codeine]

77. It is my opinion

that pointing out the fact that Chavez himself was involved in an attempted overthrow of the state in the form of a coup is substantive. As always, your mileage may vary.

[murloc]

13. Now THERES a distinction!

"They were not shut down. Their license was not renewed."

I guess its ok to suppress political speech if you can do it through licensing.

We have media in this country that advocates the impeachment of Bush.

Lets hope Bush doesnt take a lesson from Chavez on this.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. If we had media in this country that participated in an actual

foreign sponsored coup, the participants would be tried for treason and executed and the license would be withdrawn as soon as the dust settled from the failed coup. Other than that you have a good point.

[MonkeyFunk]

65. and nobody at RCTV

was even charged with a crime, much less convicted.

[EFerrari]

32. Yes, there is a distinction. Five years ago after they tried to

get him deposed if not dead, Chavez didn't throw these idiots in jail.

He worked in the system, and now these media whores lost their license. Gee, what a shame.

If you can't tell the difference, that's your problem.

[Gabi Hayes]

35. it's really hopeless, isn't it? equating expressing an opinion (impeachment)

with advocating the violent overthrow of one's government. interesting how the two are conflated, isn't it?

that type of facile illogice demonstrates why you're wasting your time with this lot

now...onward and downward!



http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgie.htm

[EFerrari]

38. Caramba. n/t

[originalpckelly]

39. Accusation is not proof, and conviction in most civilized countries...

depends upon evidence and due process of law.

[Warren Stupidity]

61. They are not being tried and/or convicted of anything.

RCTV is losing its license through a process that would appear to be legal under Venezuelan law. Way to completely misrepresent the issue. Now Venezuela is uncivilized because they are denying coup-backing RCTV a license renewal. I wonder by that standard of 'civilized' where we stand as we slaughter Iraqis to safe face and for domestic political advantage?

[murloc]

71. If by working the system you mean

Being granted "rule by decree".

Yea, he did a fine job of working the system...into being the Venezuelian Dictator.

[Socal31]

55. LOL

"They were not shut down, their license was not renewed"


So if you insurance company "doesnt renew" your policy, wouldnt you consider that somewhat of a cancellation?

Chav-lovers will stop at nothing to convince the rest of us hes a saint. Just because he has done some things that are admirable (Nationalize oil profits) doesnt excuse his dictorial and anti-opposition behavior.

Edit: Its late, spelling mistakes ;)

[hack89]

60. So why did Chavez seize their studios

and all their equipment? How does that gibe with due process?

[Warren Stupidity]

75. Do you have a link for that assertion?

Specifically a valid report that the government "seize their studios and all their equipment".

[hack89]

76. Here you go...

Venezuela's top court has allowed the government to take control of private TV transmitters

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6694245.stm

Venezuelan officials ordered Radio Caracas Television to relinquish control over its broadcasting facilities throughout the country at midnight, ending the private station's 53-year history on the air.

http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=45302


ten minutes with Google will give you plenty more

[Warren Stupidity]

79. Actually here you don't go.

"Venezuela's Supreme Court ruled that RCTV must temporarily leave its equipment and broadcast infrastructure in military hands to ensure that TVes can provide quality service."
http://www.worldnewsaustralia.com.au/region.php?id=137314®ion=4

It would seem that this is a temporary measure to insure continuity. The temporary part of this would appear to be subject to routine ommission in the ever diligent MSM.

[hack89]

81. And you really believe it will be temporary?

OK - enjoy the kool-aid.

[Warren Stupidity]

88. We will find out.

So far the government has been totally up and up regarding compensation and due process for assets seized. Of course they could start suddenly just taking stuff without bothering to go through the courts and compensate the owners, but that would not reflect the history of the Chavez government.

But more to the point, the simple fact that this is a temporary situation was generally left out of MSM reports, which is typical of the corporate propaganda system.

[Balbus]

82. No, not give a cookie - indict and convict.

But he didn't do that.

Hmm.....

on edit: It's absolutely hilarious watching this asshat deteriorate into the dictatorial thug that most intelligent people suspected he was all along and his groupies keep clinging to the life raft. It's as equally amazing as watching the bush supporters cling to his liferaft as the ship goes down.

I guess it just shows that idiocy knows neither right nor left.

[murloc]

16. Its not propaganda.

Chavez decreed that its not.

[gravity]

25. Can't argue with that

:crazy:

[EFerrari]

40. What utter crap. Do you know the law in Venezuela

or do you just sling insults because you've nothing better to do?

[murloc]

70. Im not a Venezuelian lawyer.

But I really don't have a problem insulting a dictator.

FWIW, I used to be cautiously supportive of Chavez. However after some interesting chats with a Venezuelian co-worker (who is a dual US/Venezuelian citizen), Chavez recent power grabs and rise to dictatorship, and shutdown of public media...well I'm not so supportive of him anymore.

[Big Pappa]

80. What utter crap.

Are you an expert in venezuela law.?

[originalpckelly]

8. I would suggest to you that you have been indoctrinated into a new form of personality cult.

One would believe it impossible to support the leader of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, but let me show you my friend:
http://www.korea-dpr.com/menu.htm

Hopefully, you are not also indoctrinated into Kim's personality cult, and you'll understand the point I'm trying to make. North Korea is an awful place that is almost totally restricted with little freedom of thought or action, yet from reading that page you'd think the rest of the world is a shit hole compared to the DPRK.

It's called propaganda, and I quite frankly don't trust the words of RCTV or Chavez. I don't think speech alone should be shut down. If someone has done something truly criminal they ought to be tried in a court, not have the government use it's regulatory powers to get revenge.

[EFerrari]

11. You apparently don't trust yourself either because the facts

on this issue are available on the net and you haven't bothered to assemble them on your own.

[jefferson_dem]

18. Oh right. And, in case anyone has concerns about Mugabe...

get yourself educated right here.

http://www.parlzim.gov.zw/inside.aspx?mpgid=2&spid=8

[originalpckelly]

20. Oh they don't offer merchandise though!

No really, the KFA offers autographed pro-Dear Leader merchandise! :rofl:

http://www.korea-dpr.com/catalog2/

[jefferson_dem]

15. This Pravda-style press release justifies nothing but the regime's (lack of) skill at propagandizing

This is like trying to defend Chimpy's wiretapping program with Tony SnowJOB's very own talking points.

Are you really that easy?

[Gabi Hayes]

22. so tell us what your sources are. tell us what YOU read that has given you

your unassailable enlightenment about Chavez

tell us that your enlightenment does not come from propaganda

as in the idea that one man's revolutionary is another man's terrorist, one man's factual analysis is another's propaganda

start citing sources for your assertions, then we'll get to decide whether you're relying on propaganda or reasonable, unfettered newsgathering

can't wait

[jefferson_dem]

26. There are mountains of stories which are critical of Hugo; Many have been cited here, some by me.

If you see any as propaganda, feel free to express yourself.

If you are suggesting that this government-issued press release is *not* propaganda...please step up and defend it's worth...and maybe you can convince some who aren't yet on board the Hugo bandwagon.

[Gabi Hayes]

30. funny how you all talk about the "mountains" of evidence exists against Chavez, yet, when

asked directly to cite ONE, it's just too much trouble

why is that?

and why can't you refute the government propaganda (only gainsay it, without supporting evidence), if that's what it is? if it's not true, shouldn't it be EASY to demonstrate to us hapless sycophants why it's merely government lies?

please, enlighten us. if you're correct in your assertions, and can prove it to my dogmatic satisfaction, I'll gladly come over to your side of the fence

but you appear unable to do so

again, why is that?

help me out here

[jefferson_dem]

36. Thanks for the opportunity but I will not do your research.

If you haven't seen any evidence critical of Hugo, you haven't been paying attention. I hope that's not the case.

[ellisonz]

47. Here's a mountain, I'll let you discover the whole range.

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=americas&c=venezu

Because I care;-)

[burrowowl]

29. Have some who are attacking READ

the pdf?

[originalpckelly]

33. Yes, I have. I liked it. It's nice to hear propaganda that doesn't piss me off...

it still doesn't mean it wasn't propaganda.

[Gabi Hayes]

34. of course not. it's merely government generated propaganda.

even if it's factually accurate, it can't be.....true!

how could it be?

it doesn't square with the fantasy of evil leftist government stifling legitimate dissent.

don't confuse them with any validatable evidence that contrasts with their dogma

BURN ''HIM!'' He's a WITCH!



http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/South_America/US_Coup_Venezuela.html

[EFerrari]

41. No, because they have feelings and they know too much.

:shrug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

42. You've Got To Be Kidding Me. This Is Pure Propaganda From The Government That Is Useless In Debate.

I couldn't help laughing heartily as I was reading it. It is such blatant propaganda. I mean, bush could write something like that for just about ANYTHING that we criticize him for, and lord knows he's done it several times already. We laugh our asses off when read the spin he puts on things don't we? Well why the hell should we laugh any less at this propaganda?

Sorry, but using the governments own propaganda to bolster your case about why we shouldn't criticize that government is really really silly in my opinion.

[Warren Stupidity]

62. "The Government That Is Useless In Debate"?

I dunno, I thought Chavez actually held his own in debates. I don't think he is quite useless.

Oh you meant we should stick with the MSM official version of events. Got it. Its all a lovely shopping spree on a sunni day in a Baghdad Market. That MSM. That official version.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

68. Wait; Are You Serious?

If you think that using the government mouthpiece propaganda report as the primary information for bolstering a position of "see? shutting down the tv stations was fine!" is appropriate or beneficial for argument, then I really can't help ya pal.

I think most of us have no trouble recognizing how transparent and useless the above pdf is for such an argument.

It's like using one of the white house press releases to make your argument. Don't you think doing such a thing would be monumentally mocked here from an intellectual standpoint? Don't you think such propaganda is only useful to those who are too lazy to think for themselves and will just swallow whatever's handed to them? Do you think this should be different because it isn't the white house that released it but chavez's government? Get a grip. It's all the same shit. It's propaganda. If ya want to bolster your case for argument I'd hope you could do better than using such empty garbage as the pdf propaganda.

[Warren Stupidity]

72. I fail to see much difference

between the quasi official utterances of the MSM and the official utterances of less obfuscated propaganda systems. If you seem to feel that your propaganda sources are superior, fine. I tend to sift through what is reported from all sources and attempt to determine what are the actual facts and then make my own decisions.

In this case, in the case of RCTV, not renewing their license is a modest step considering their active participation in foreign sponsored destabilization operations against the elected Venezuelan government. While there certainly is a free speech issue, broadcast media licenses are a special case of a finite resource that is also a public good. It is entirely appropriate for a democratic representative government to decide on who gets access to this public good based on perceived public benefit. In this case, considering RCTV's past actions, of course they should not have more opportunities to poison the public discourse by abusing the public's trust with their license to broadcast over the public airwaves.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

74. You Seem To Be Confused.

You say I feel my propaganda sources are superior, yet I'm not the one that posted any under the foolish guise that it would somehow be valuable in bolstering my argument.

Using the pdf in the OP for any substantial argument is silly as can be. I laugh at it wholeheartedly.

And what chavez did was wrong. If you want to believe otherwise yay for you. But I don't. I see it for what it is. He's nothing short of a power hungry scumbag coward in my opinion. I'm entitled to it.

[burrowowl]

43. Shameless KICK!

:hi:

[RagingInMiami]

44. But this was put out by the Chavez government

So is there any chance that this could also be propaganda?

[originalpckelly]

45. Oh no, where'd you get that idea?

It seems like you've had enough common sense for now, go back and try the kool-aid.

[malaise]

46. There's only one question needed

Was RCTV a version of MSM in the US?

If a station is on air telling citizens of an elected government that they should support the overthrow of their government, on what basis does it keep its license? Isn't that why there are regulations for all institutions and professions. Chavez did not shut down a TV station. No one was locked up - no one died. They were refused a new license which they violated. That happens to loads of individuals, businesses, etc.
What gives them the right to violate the Venezuelan constitution.

In several other places they'd have been locked up for treason or killed just like all those journalists and stations in Iraq. This not about losing a license for being anti-government or for telling lies - this is about promoting a coup on TV on behalf of oil corporations and their backers - the US government. Think long and hard about this one.

[burrowowl]

51. Yes and not only that

U$ and CIA sponsored broadcasting.
During Ray-Gun, lived in Cental America at the time, the CIA types were easily spotted.
Please read, Howard Zinn: A People's Histroy of the United States.

[malaise]

56. Philip Agree exposed them here

in the early 80s. I lived through that chaos in Jamaica and know exactly what you're saying.

[1932]

57. Running cartoons instead of news that the coup was failing...

For access to the public airwaves, you have to provide a public service.

Refusing to run the news at a critical moment like that really is equal to forfeiting your over-the-air broadcast license at its next renewal.

And, more generally, it is in the public interest to open that space up to a more bottom-up source of information, rather than a top-down source of information replaces it.

[ConsAreLiars]

48. Who gets access to the TV spectrum? That is the question the Limbaugh dittoheads refuse to address.

They put out moralistic "freedom of the press is absolute" and other such silly arguments, as if "for whom" is not at issue and that whoever now controls the press has some god-given right to keep control, no matter what crimes they commit or what the best interest of the people might be.

It is, at the core, a question of who has control and use of that frequency. For myself, I prefer hearing the voices of ordinary people rather than the views of corporate billionaires and their hirelings. Sure I am biased in that regard, but that is just because I believe that the common good is more important than unending corporatism. Others seem to disagree, and are extremely vociferous in denouncing the fact that this channel is being taken from the formerly ruling elite turned over to the masses.

Which side are you on? That is the fundamental question here.

[MonkeyFunk]

66. And Chavez' answer

to who gets access to the spectrum is "I do".

[Codeine]

78. Just an FYI.

We can disagree with you without being "Limbaugh dittoheads." Disagreement about this issue doesn't mean we're suddenly tools of right-wing corporatists.

[ConsAreLiars]

84. The reference was to that small subset of "critics"

who think that the more often they repeat false claims about what is happening in Venezuela and the louder and more belligerent they are in hurling insults, the more points they win for their side. Just screaming out a small set of slogans, epithets and talking points over and over. Typical dittohead tactics. They bring nothing but noise to the discussions they interrupt. In this manner, by they do indeed serve corporate imperialist objectives, although I have no knowledge of what actually motivates their disruptive behavior.

But my reference to "which side?" was intended to highlight the fact that there is a real conflict going on with real people's lives being changed for better or worse, and although reality has no resemblance to the simple-minded good versus bad ideological map that the dittoheads favor, a big part of the reality we live in is being shaped by the multinationals, to the detriment of the people generally, excepting only a small elite.

That was all just a long winded way of saying that the dittohead label refers to a way of "thinking" and arguing, not to a particular position on a particular subject.

[slipslidingaway]

52. Thanks K&R n/t

[David__77]

53. Good, very brief overview.

But there are better sources for in-depth information. I certainly would agree that this is democratizing move. What we're really arguing over is what is the definition of "democracy."

[gorbal]

64. I thought the "Democracy Now" from yesterday was insightful

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/31/1412206

You get both the real feelings of anger the Venuzuelan people might have at the station from it's history of supporting dictators, while at the same time you get a real feeling for why it SHOULDN'T be shut down. All in all, while it might be something god may forgive Chavez for, I doubt the International media ever will.

[OilemFirchen]

67. The "International media"?

Who?

News Corp?
G.E.?
Time Warner?
Westinghouse?
Clear Channel?
Sinclair?
Reuters?
AP?

Fuck them.

[Balbus]

83. Oh, so the government says that Chavez was in the right?

Damn, I guess I got that one wrong... :eyes:

[burrowowl]

86. Kick for tomorrow!

[Cleita]

87. Thanks. n/t