Fine and/or imprison the illegal employer

[SHRED]

Undocumented labor dries up.
Border issues reduce dramatically.
Labor balance begins to restore and wages go up.

[napi21]

1. That's been my solution for a LONG TIME!

The only change that's needed that I can see is a better way for the employers to validate a potential employee's status.

I never viewed it as a problem, but recently I've heard several people on the radio explaining how easy it is to use someone elses valid ID and our current system would not uncover the theft, or at least not for quite a while.

[SHRED]

3. why couldn't...

...we have a 1-800 system where a SS# could be called in and the physical characteristics could be described for a match?
The employer calling in could describe their potential employee and they could get a YES or NO from the service.

[napi21]

6. I can't see the physical description working.

In all fairness, since most illegals appear to be from a latino country, just what description would you expect the caller to give in that call? Dark hair, brown eyes, medium build,...........Do you see what I mean? And not to appear racist, the applicant could be white, brown hair, medium build, etc.

Truthfully, even when police ask for physical descriptions of a perp, they always ask for "identifing marks" like a scar, tatoo, something that cannot be easily changed.

[SHRED]

8. I was thinking....

...it would be almost 100% accurate. Especially if they were using SS#'s of dead people.

I haven't thought this through yet but couldn't something be done without the National ID card that will never pass?
Couldn't we use what we already have in place?

[napi21]

14. I don't know. I suppose they could demand what the State of Ga.

demanded from ME when I went to get my DL here when we moved from Pa. in 2000.

They insisted on at least ONE utility bill with my name on it to prove residency, and either a birth cirtificate, passport, or immigration papers to prove who I was. I appeared with a utility bill and my birth certificate from Pa. (which was 57 years old!). They weren't satisfied with THAT birth certificate because it didn't have a "state seal" on it, so I had to order a replacement from Pa. THEN I got my Ga. photo ID.

I don't know how many of these ID papers can be "bought" on some street corner, so I don't know if that would work or not.

[MADem]

16. There are at LEAST fifty THOUSAND illegal IRISH aliens living in the USA.

Everyone's after those dusky Mexicanos and Central Americans, and even the Brazilians, nowadays, but there are illegals from round the world living here. They come on a vacation visa, and they just....stay. And no one really notices them. Because they flew in you see, rather than hopping a fence...

[napi21]

21. Oh I agree, but the Irish are no easier to identify by physical

description than Latino, White, Asian, or Black.

[mitchum]

25. Remember, there are lots of Irish-American members of congress...

that's why even the legal quota has been set so disproportionately high for legal immigrants from Ireland

[MADem]

26. The economy over there is booming, doncha know.

No one is leaving anymore, hardly. The ones who are here came during the time when Ireland cinched up their waists and put all their dough into infrastructure and education; and the economy was in the shits back then. They came, got jobs, got married, and so on--but now they're living in the shadows, illegally. It was a topic of discussion last St. Paddy's Day at the White House...dunno if anything came of it. Haven't heard anything, anyway...

[Warpy]

11. Great minds on DU have been thinking alike for years

The fines are on the books. What we have now is an administration that wants to ignore the laws and bring in as many illegals as possible in order to drive wages even lower, while doing token, window dressing programs like that idiotic fence to pretend they are doing something to protect us.

The laws are on the books awaiting enforcement, and yes, there has to be a better system for validation, whether by fingerprints or iris pattern.

The problem isn't Mexicans or other illegals, all of whom are looking for nothing more than a chance at a better life and finding only exploitation. The problem is the cheap labor conservative who wants us all to live on air while they rake in millions.

It's high time people fed on knee jerk prejudice against immigrants, legal or illegal, to wake the hell up and smell the corruption.

[Jade Fox]

2. Fine them. Money talks. And hurts.

If they're in prison, no one will get the job.

[Rydz777]

4. Yes, that's the real solution. It's sensible and doable. All it

takes is the political will - which so far has been lacking.

[SHRED]

5. Seems to me....

...they are over complicating this on purpose.
Both Repub and Dem.

[snappyturtle]

17. I think they are too! They want cheap labor and that means

creating ANOTHER system that is so laborious to illegals that it will be ignored. Notice the length of the border fence has been drastically reduced. Our government people seem to want the borders open: better to institute the North American Union. I also believe this whole senate scenario has been made to look like they're doing something about immigration (at a huge cost to us).

Why not enforce the laws on the books?

[dogman]

7. Confiscate everything.

Remove the profit motive. Take plants, equipment, and cash. Executives will become aware, real fast.

[SHRED]

9. Take homes and vehicles also

The #1 employer is happy home owner.

Maids, yard work, day labor, etc...

Sad but true.

[TahitiNut]

10. Funny how they claim they're uable to identify illegal aliens - and can require piss tests

... and fire people for smoking even on their own time. It just blows me away that employers have been able to require job applicants to submit to piss tests, physical examinations, and psych testing, and have required high school and college transcripts as well as military discharge papers ... but proclaim ignorance when 100, 200, 300, 400, or even more employess are neither citizens nor even in this country legally!

It's long past time to clamp down on these tyrants and scofflaws. It wasn't anywhere near enough to fine the meat packing company ... their executives should have been imprisoned, the company assets seized under RICO, and their business license revoked. Enough is enough and we're far past 'enough.'

[SHRED]

15. awesome point...thanks!

[napi21]

22. But NONE of those things prove your citizenship status.

And in all fairness, I doubt any contractors or farmers demand a HS transcript.

[Vexatious Ape]

12. Yes, and make the prison sentences as Draconian

as our absurd drug laws. I'm with you.

[MADem]

13. You must, then, provide the employers, all of them, with a method of verifying citizenship

If your prospective employee shows up with a good looking SSAN card, birth certificate or green card, and a state driver's license, you, as the employer, need to be able to verify that they are genuine. How are you going to DO that?

There is NO system in place, save eyeballing the documents--what if you are wrong? Off to jail with you because you got fooled by a fantastic forgery?

There needs to be a whole new fucking layer of bureaucracy to handle this sort of thing. People, at phones, who take down information, look it up, and tell you YES or NO. Or websites, hack proof, preferably, where the employer can send in the data and have it bounced back as GOOD/FAKE.

And you can't make the process ONEROUS, either, because employers are going to have to do it for every single employee, not just the ones that look like Juan Valdez. You'll get the treatment, I'll get it, everyone will get it.

But then, there's a scenario that goes something like this hypothetical: Julio Iglesias, US dual citizen, becomes the unwitting victim of identity theft. At the end of the year, he finds out when he gets his income tax information, that not only has he been making millions crooning love songs, but he's also been picking lettuce in California, because Rodrigo Iglesias, lettuce picker extraordinaire, has swiped his personal information to use to get past the checks. He's also hanging drywall in Denver, cleaning offices in Orlando, and being a busy busboy in Boston. Hard worker, that Mister Iglesias!!

Come up with a system that works, that's responsive, that doesn't take three to twelve months to process, that doesn't allow employers undue/free access to government databases--you'll be a millionaire if you can suss that one out.

Sometimes simple solutions aren't so simple.

[TahitiNut]

19. Isn't it a shame that a urine test, a blood test, and a credit check isn't enough?

Sure. They "don't know." If anyone buys that it's almost certain they also own shares in the Brooklyn Bridge.

:eyes:

Hint: When an employer gets (and ignores!) hundreds of "warn letters" from the Social Security Adminstration that the SSN doesn't match the full name and birth date submitted, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know they're intentionally hiriing illegal aliens.

For over 20 years, I've been required to submit evidence that I have a right to be employed in the U.S. - evidence including my birth certificate, SSN, driver's license, and passport. They've also required my college transcripts and other background check materials.

[MADem]

24. The "Warn Letters" though, don't have any conseqences associated with them

I frankly do not blame employers or anyone else for getting away with what they can get away with. I am NOT saying they don't know what the deal is, what I am saying is that the government is complicit in this whole business. For all of BushCo's tough talk on this matter, the first fucking thing he did when he took office was gut the goddamned Border Patrol and deny the FBI the computers they needed to drag them forward from the late 1980s. It's the equivalent of not just leaving the back door open, but posting signs on the street TELLING everyone the back door is open.

I mean, really, how many people would bother to pay their income taxes if the IRS just sent you a letter that said "Gee, you didn't pay your taxes, and we're warning you that you really should have!" and no further consequences accrued? Not many, I'd wager. And the business owner who does the "right thing" and is honest about his hiring practices gets put out of business by the baaastid who hires illegals.

Hell, I used to live near this guy who had a family business, which gave him certain tax breaks because he only had a few employees, supposedly, all of them family. He was Korean, and half his quite enormous "family" was Guatemalan (an ever-changing parade of them, too)--paid under the table at much less than minimum wage, too. There were no "warn letters" to worry about because the whole process was a cash transaction. It's egregious, but you're not getting the whole scope of the problem when you just go after the employers who actually fill out paperwork and make a halfhearted, albeit insincere, attempt to follow procedure. There are also plenty of businesses that do the "cash payday" and don't think twice about it, to say nothing of the families who hire Rosaria to clean, Carmen to cook, and Clementina to take care of the kids--and pay cash, each and every week.

The solution, then, is to change the WARN LETTER. It shouldn't be a "WARNING"--it should be a notification that they have "X" days to fix the situation or they'll be fined. Heavily. Think that will happen anytime soon? Not as long as the businesses who use these folks and that contribute heavily to their candidate of choice have a say-so.

I think it's counterproductive to blame people for getting away with what they CAN get away with. The challenge is to get Congress to find the will to clamp down, because their greatest contributors are those guys who save a bundle on payroll by shady hiring practices.

I can't fathom how your urine tests, blood tests, credit checks and so forth have much to do with this issue, frankly--if there was a way an illegal could do your job at half the pay you get, if they could come up with the fake documents, they'd probably apply for it. For the most part, these workers aren't applying for jobs with that kind of rigor associated with the hiring process. They're toting that barge, and lifting that bale, by and large.

[napi21]

20. Agreed! That's what I said in the above post, only you said it better!

My instincts are leaning toward fingerprints. It's a technology that has existed for a very long time, and other than having to provide an alcohol wipe to clean your finger, is a pretty simple procedure. The only problem I see is with day workers who show up on a job site to work THAT DAY. How would a contractor be able to verify that fingerprint? What kind of equipment would he need and how long would it take?

[MADem]

23. He'd need a fingerprint reader, the kind attached to computers nowadays, the kind the

military's been using for a decade now in the ID issuance process--right hand, first digit, unless you are missing your finger--then ya go down the line. You'd have to be able to send it to a database with a couple of hundred million people in it, and it would have to look, quick like a bunny, for the match.

Of course, the problem there, down the road, is something I view as the "James Bond" problem, which could very well be the future of cheating if we do go to prints. There was this Bond picture where the hero James is pretending to be someone else, drinking from a glass, which is then taken away by the bad guys and they dust it for prints to ensure that it really IS the guy that Bond is pretending to be -- the audience thinks "OH SHIT!! He'll be CAUGHT!!!! What WILL James do?" -- but they bad guys are satisfied with the match...how could that have happened? How was James able to pull that off, you ask! Then later, you see him in the bathroom with a tweezers, peeling off these fake fingerprints no thicker than saran wrap or dried superglue!

Remember when cellphone minutes were pricey, and guys would run around cloning phones and running up people's bills? For every technological advance, there's always some asshole who will fuck with the system and try to cheat--it's just the nature of society. I suppose it does result in technological advances, but doggone...! There WILL be some smartass who finds a way around this stuff.

For example, if they put the fingerprint on the license, digitized, so that only a card reader could see it, it would be only a matter of time before a shitload of card manufacturing equipment/readers goes missing, so they can build a good fake from the ground up. There have been instances, quite nervewracking when you think of it, of military ID card making software and equipment growing legs and walking off, which resulted in some changes in how the whole process is conducted.

[porphyrian]

18. Yep.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=813892&mesg_id=815306

[Jade Fox]

27. I missed that the first time around....

Very succinct, yet thorough. And I agree completely. :thumbsup:

[blues90]

28. I think every employer should be fined and spend jail time

For hiring anyone who is illegal no matter where the immigrant came from . It's only fair . If I tried to move to canada it would happen to me . Fair is fair . Why should the US be the only country people came cross the border and work and get away with it .

It is not a melting pot anymore and since bush sheaded the constitution for our rights then all bets are off . how much room are we supposed to allow and how many jobs are there to offer away by criminal employers .

I feel things should be fair and this means even the trade laws , not free .

I was not the one who destroyed the economy in mexico and I have no problem with mexican workers but why should we have to pay the cost and lower our wages and be told many jobs are jobs americans don't want , that is bushs mental ramblings not mine or yours .