Please, Kindly, Go Fuck Yourself. Semper Fi.

[Blue-Jay]

From America Blog:

Pentagon launches more witch hunts of Iraq war critics

In this case, they're going after an Iraq war vet for wearing camouflage fatigues during a mock patrol protesting the war that took place in DC in March. Wearing camo? Funny that the Bush administration uses active and former military, in uniform, at practically every political event they hold, but the Pentagon has no problem when it's the Republicans using our troops for political purposes.

Remember when Colorado Republican House member Marilyn Musgrave had active-duty troops in uniform at a political event during her re-election? I didn't hear about those service members being in trouble. Remember when Bush did it in the White House a few months back (see photo at left), he had a whole crew of folks in uniform behind him at a terribly political event mean to bash Democrats over the war. The presence of uniformed American military at an event meant to declare Democrats unsupportive of our military implies that the military brass believes that Democrats are unsupportive of the military. That's a huge declaration for a country in which the military is supposed to be subservient to the political leadership, and not the other way around. Not a word about any of them facing charges either. The simple fact is that there are two standards of law in America (that's a violation of Equal Protection under the Constitution). One for Bush and company and one for the rest of us. And our military leaders have been just as corrupted by politics as the rest of the administration.

link: http://www.americablog.com/2007/06/pentagon-launches-more-witch-hunts-of.html

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

and now.....



Edited: Catchier title. Everyone loves the word "fuck".

[1776Forever]

1. Sergeant Kokesh Goes to Washington Blog Link

Here is Sergeant Kokesh blog: http://kokesh.blogspot.com/2007/05/legal-defense-fund-for-adam-kokesh.html

Sergeant Kokesh states on his blog:

This case is important because the intimidation of servicemen who speak out will suppress the truth about Iraq. With the help of IVAW, I intend to fight this to the end and stand up for the rights of all members of our armed forces. Please support this effort by mailing a check made out to IVAW with “Adam Kokesh Legal Defense Fund” in the memo to PO Box 8296, Philadelphia, PA 19101 or by going here, http://www.ivaw.org/support clicking on “Donate Now” and including “Adam Kokesh Legal Defense Fund” in the Special Project Support window. Please feel free to email me with any questions or comments [e-mail]


My prayers are with you - from a mother of 2 Iraq Vets. We care! We stand with you!
:yourock:

[Blue-Jay]

3. Pic of Sgt Kokesh:

That's him on the left.

[leftchick]

23. here is another....

Marine Corps veteran Adam Kokesh talks with reporters during a news conference in Washington, Friday, June 1, 2007. Kokesh had already received an honorable discharge from active duty before he was photographed in April wearing fatigues - with military insignia removed - during a mock patrol with other veterans protesting the Iraq war. A military panel in Kansas City, Mo., will hold a hearing Monday to decide whether he should be should be discharged from service and, if so, with what type of discharge. (AP Photo/Lawrence

I am glad the VFW supports him....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070602/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/military_protest_hearing_17

[leeroysphitz]

77. This is BS. With rank and insignia REMOVED the apparel in question

can no longer be considered a uniform. At that point its just a shirt and pants that happen to have a camoflage pattern. You can get them at old navy...

If I were to show up to formation in BDUs without my rank, name tag, unit insignia etc... I would be OUT OF UNIFORM and in trouble.

[Karenina]

79. Adam wore a COSTUME!

to ACT in STREET THEATER as a Pfc. Private fucking citizen. ;-)

[sanskritwarrior]

98. The Marine Corps uniform

has the eagle globe and anchor emblem on the digital pattern, it was not a costume.........

[19jet54]

121. Those Marine digi-BDUs are Uniform...

... Brigade Quartermaster has clone imitations that are not. Technically, he is out of uniform, and if his non-active reserve obligation is not up, they still own his ass. As a citizen, he can be charged with wearing a military uniform. These rules are very specific - Bad mistake on his part. It is really not a good idea to piss off the people in charge, without totally having your shit together?

[BlooInBloo]

2. Trying to re-enlist him, so they can dishonorably discharge him has GOT to be...

.... near the tops of all-time jackassery.

[SeattleGirl]

5. And then some, Bloo.

I'm starting to feel like the girl in The Exorcist, head spinning round and round. Wonder when I'll start spewing pea soup.

Any military person who is unwilling to stick their noses up Bush's arse is subject to this kind of treatment.

[sanskritwarrior]

30. He's not really out of the military

this seems to be something people don't understand. Until June 18th he is owned by the Marine Corps.........If he is still in the Marine Corps, which he is, then.........Politically I feel for the kid, the soldier in me tells me he fucked up and didn't read the fine print..........He is a Marine until June 18th 2007, no matter what he or you or I think about his politics, he is a Marine for 8 years from the day of enlistment.......

According to Article 2 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, persons subject to military discipline and/or punishment under the UCMJ include "Members of the Fleet Reserve and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve." Kokesh is a member of the Reserve till June 18.

According to Articles 89 and 91 of the UCMJ, Kokesh could face a court-martial for his profane comment to the superior officer, whether commissioned, warrant or noncommissioned. He could thus "be punished as a court-martial may direct.

[me b zola]

69. You are misunderstanding or misrepresenting how the reserves work

You are "active duty", under your command's control, only when you are on orders. Typically that is your two week-ends a month, one week a year. Anytime that you work with the military other than your one week-end a month new orders are issued which make you under your command's control beginning at a specific time & date and ending at a specific time & date.

When a reservists is not on orders, they are free citizens are share the same civil liberties as any other civilian.

[sanskritwarrior]

100. Acutaly I'm in the military and no that's what people think

here is the actual reg........

According to Article 2 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, persons subject to military discipline and/or punishment under the UCMJ include "Members of the Fleet Reserve and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve." Kokesh is a member of the Reserve till June 18.

According to Articles 89 and 91 of the UCMJ, Kokesh could face a court-martial for his profane comment to the superior officer, whether commissioned, warrant or noncommissioned. He could thus "be punished as a court-martial may direct.



YOU BELONG TO THE MILITARY UNTIL YOU HAVE COMPLETED 8 YEARS. No matter what you think, or what you have heard, or what you want to believe, it is in the contract.........How can so many smart people not get this? Politically he is spot on correct, in terms of the UCMJ he is as wrong as wrong can be.

Here's what his lawyer says........

"Kokesh is part of the Individual Ready Reserve, a segment of the reserves that consists mainly of those who have left active duty but still have time remaining on their eight-year military obligations."

His attorney, Mike Lebowitz, said Kokesh's IRR status ends June 18.

[me b zola]

114. You continue to take things out of context to misrepresent the facts

Yes, a reservist is subject to the UCMJ for action that occur while they are on orders, but not once those orders expire. Your orders expire at the end of your drill week-end until the next time that you are ordered to muster, whether it be a drill week-end or an OP.

An example of this was given during an GMT that I attended. Use of illegal drugs is prohibited under the UCMJ. You are free to do that on your own civilian time, but if you use a substance that comes back on a urine test during your drill week-end or other work time for the military, then you are subject to courts martial/discharge from the military.

You quotation of Kokesh's attorney is, again, misused. That eight year military obligation is a contractural agreement, but does not place the reservist on orders or "active" for the entire eight years.


I'm curious to know what your military status is. I only served as a reservist, but my husband served 7 years active duty before serving in the reserves.

[sanskritwarrior]

134. I'm quoting the UCMJ

like I said my status is active, 13 years in. I'm quoting the UCMJ itself, which under that criteria Cpl. Kokesh fits.......see post 126

[BikeWriter]

158. They admitted he is not under the UCMJ.

[sanskritwarrior]

159. Interesting as today's ruling says that yes he was........

[BikeWriter]

163. That's not what the IVAW site said...

Iraq Veterans Against the War scored a victory for free speech today in Kansas City, MO. A panel of three Marine Corps officers recommended today that Adam Kokesh receive a general discharge under honorable conditions. Adam and his attorney will, however, appeal this finding on the grounds that Adam is entitled to his full honorable discharge. In a seemingly hypocritical contradiction, the Marine Corps panel, as well as the prosecution's key witness, Major Whyte, agreed that the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) does not apply to members of the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR). Regardless of this, several other honorably discharged IVAW members are facing a similar hearing based on their stance against the war. IVAW members will continue to tell the truth about our experiences in Iraq and in the military and fight to bring our brothers and sisters home from Iraq now.
http://www.ivaw.org/

[sanskritwarrior]

164. Huh?

how is it a victory when the guy gets punished? Pyrrhic victory????

And remember the Brigadier General, the one Cpl. Kokesh told to fuck off can still give him a less than honorable discharge and still take away his benefits. I hope they let him go in peace now personally, but this is hardly a victory.......

[BikeWriter]

165. I quote: "the Marine Corps panel,"

as well as the prosecution's key witness, Major Whyte, agreed that the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) does not apply to members of the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR).

[ProudDad]

118. Fuck the regs

Fuck the marines...

Piss on ALL FLAGS!!!

[sanskritwarrior]

125. LOL don't join the military with that attitude.

[ProudDad]

147. I resigned from the Navy

in '64 when it became evident to me what a sham and shame is the whole f*ckin' enterprise of war. I decided that neither I nor anyone else should kill anyone for Lyndon Johnson or, by extension, kill other working class folks because the ruling class says we should or must.

The entire military and all military enterprise is a deadly pathology that will someday cease to exist.

In the meantime, as Eisenhower warned, the military-industrial complex has corrupted our attempt at democracy here in the U.S. and has decimated human progress throughout the Earth.

Anyone who joins or supports ANY military is a fool and a stooge for the masters of war.

Someday the ruling classes are going to call for a war and no one will answer that call.

One can't kill for peace any more than one can fuck for chastity.

[me b zola]

116. Too late to edit a mistake in my post....

...one week-end a month, two weeks a year.

Geez, do ya think that my dander was up a bit when I posted?

[rasputin1952]

71. A slight catch here...if he is not on Active Status, he can

do damn near as he pleases. If he has been Discharged, a DD214 was issued, and although he might still be a Reservist until 18JUN07, if he is not active, there is little they can do. If the Activate him, it would be an extremely unwise move. If I were in his shoes, and was activated for this "infraction", I'd demand a Court-Martial, and make it a Circus for the USMC...I should think this is what the USMC would see, and drop the whole thing. They should never have brought this up in the first place, it is a political move, and the military should distance itself from politics like this...:(

[Karenina]

75. I'm SO HAPPY

to read these two posts. Adam, in the incident in question, was a Pfc actor wearing a COSTUME for a street theater piece. That's MY STORY and I'm sticking to it! :silly: Methinks it VERY UNWISE of the USMC to pursue this. We'll see tomorrow in KC, eh?

[rasputin1952]

80. If they pursue this, it will be a serious black mark for the Corps...

Some jerk in a high place decided he/she was offended, and made a stink out of this. The Major in question is simply following orders sent down from on high, and whomever sent those orders down should be rifted from the service because he/she is an idiot extrodinaire. This entire incident was nothing until some bonehead made it something. No one would have noticed a damn thing, and now, if this individual was not Active at the time, the entire incident is moot. IF they are so damn stupid as to Activate him so they can pursue a case, the media will have a grand old time and the only entity to be hurt, will be the USMC.

As a vet, I have great respect for all who serve. When i see things like this, I am reminded of just how many incredibly stupid people are in charge of matters they should have left alone. Generally speaking, the Officer Corps is made up of intelligent and dedicated members, but all it takes is one to screw up everything. Groupthink is a norm, and when a high ranking bonehead says something, people react. In all honesty, I don't feel sorry that whomever has the position of authority in this matter...they are doing nothing but making the military look like fools.

[kiteinthewind]

106. Correct. He is not active. He is a private citizen, and they want to make an example out

of him because they are scared shitless because the Iraq vets are speaking out and what they say, more than anyone else IMO, is the most relevant and telling about this freaking occupation. They can't have that now, can they?

[sce56]

109. That would be al fine and dandy if we had a truly free and independent press!

We do not have one so they can do as they please he needs to get his congressional critter to back him up it is his only hope since they can do as they please. The military ethic was lead by example when I retired in 94 and up until AWOLBush took over now it is "Do as I say not as I do!"

Awol's* new presidential medal of appreciation for soldiers

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

83. I see your batting average is still 1.000. Wow. -nt

[Captain Hilts]

85. Ahhh, okay, now it's starting to make sense. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

137. Wow you know more than his legal team?

Interesting. Adam is here and I spent most of the weekend with him and his lawyers and his supporters. Even the VFW is supporting him.

His lawyers are calling this a gross miscarriage of justice.

Maybe I should email this comment of yours to them? :)

[dEMOK]

4. This is Hiarious!...

How many of us have seen recruiters in camo? I see them all the time in restaurants.

(BTW - I like {not love} the word "fuck," {only because it's so versatile} But I guess you're right -- sex sells.)

The Pentagon argument may be that active duty personal have given up their right to dissent; but it's always appropriate for any soldier to disobey an illegal order.

Our soldiers were illegally dispatched to Iraq. Every living one of them (inactive or not) has the right to disobey the Pentagon (Genuine Americans need to speak for our dead soldiers, who trusted in a worthy cause).

[dEMOK]

6. Oh, K&R... nt

[dave_p]

9. Expanding the vocabulary of debate

Let's pause to honor the guy who introduced the word into the language of US political exchange: the Dick.

More here.

[IChing]

10. Does this work?

[dave_p]

7. Quoting the Veep

... must surely convince them of his continued loyalty. :D

[dEMOK]

8. Please Reply (same thread);;;

... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=389&topic_id=1030740&mesg_id=1030989

[Decruiter]

11. You know I just always fall back on Smedley Butler and his little treatise

WAR IS A RACKET!

www.vfp.org

www.ivaw.org

Buy the small, little book and buy many copies and spread them far and wide!

[dEMOK]

12. You Get It !!!...

"Global" companies make more $$$ in one day of war than in one year of peace.

Thank you Decruiter.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

13. This man is a true patriot. F U and the dick you rode in on

Herr Chimpenfuhrer... as well as all of you traitorous enablers!

[dEMOK]

14. Bush is the Puppet...

The puppeteer(s) deserve the wrath...

[HCE SuiGeneris]

15. I completely agree he is a hand puppet, but I have enough scorn

for all of them. :smoke:

[dEMOK]

16. And Justly So...

There are no words for the degree of disgust I have for these pretenders to a nonexistent throne.

[sanskritwarrior]

17. If this young Marine

is in fact still in the reserves and did in fact appear at a political rally then he is in violation of the law. If he is also in the reserves and he really told a superior to fuck himself, he is in violation of Marine Regs and should go to jail. It doesn't matter if you have 100 days or 100 minutes left in your time in the military, until you are fully out, you must obey all regulations concerning military uniform wear and respect to senior officers and NCO's........

When the rightwing does it, it is wrong, when someone on our side does it, it is just as wrong. If this young man was in my unit and he pulled this crap, I would be pushing hard to fry his ass to the wall. Not because of his political beliefs or his actions (I personally find them quite innovative and cool) but because good order and discipline cannot be allowed to atrophy. I wish more people on the right got fried for this crap, but if this young man pays a penalty that is just as good, because in the military there SHOULD be no difference in punishment. Leftwing or Rightwing if you truly break regs for whatever reason the military should fry your candy ass...........I feel for the young man, if he truly is a reservist he is wrong, if he is not actually still in the reserves then he did nothing wrong. His personal politics are irrelevant to this discussion, when it comes to the Regs, there is one and only one way to do things. IF he is still a reservist he is wrong and should pay a price.

[babylonsister]

19. Does INACTIVE ready reserve also count? nt

[sanskritwarrior]

21. Yes

you are on the hook for 8 years. A friend of mine many years ago (way before 9/11) told his commander to fuck off and punched him one day before his 8 years was up. Now this guy had ETSed from the Army 2 years previously but still lived in the same town as the Army base. So one day before his IRR time is up he comes on base finds our old commander, who had now been promoted to Major and was in a staff job, walked into his office, told him to fuck off and then puncjed him. The local police arrested him, turned hom over to the MP's and the guy got a dishonorable discharge and then served 90 days in the local jail for assault......The local civilian cops wanted to charge the guy with assault, but the Major felt sorry for the guy so he talked the police into dropping the charge to a misdemeanor and the guy did 90 days instead of being charged with a felony.......

[babylonsister]

22. I'm not discounting what you said, but his lawyer doesn't think so:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=32843&mesg_id=32843

[sanskritwarrior]

24. I'm not a lawyer

and I wouldn't presume to say I'm right over a lawyer, but I know the military. I think they have this guy on several things, his blog is going to be a goldmine for the Marine prosecutor. Here's my bottom line; Personally if he is in the IRR and he did these things, then I believe the military will be able to do what they want. Had he done these things after June 18, 2007 they couldn't touch him..............My personal opinion is he has the right to say and do what he wants, but if he is in the IRR the second he dons that uniform he must abide by UCMJ........I feel for the kid, but I think he fucked up.

Edit: One more thing on his blog he describes in detail how they lied to MP's, security police and gate guards at bases in Germany to gain entrance, and how they travelled with an Army deserter and helped him avert detection, I think they might be luring him to Kansas City to charge him with a lot more...........If you are going to protest, don't leave an evidence trail a mile long about your illegal activites to gain access to sensitive bases in europe.......That was incredibly stupid..........

[proud2BlibKansan]

140. You call him stupid while I call him brave

He is a true American patriot. Soldiers need to speak out against this immoral and illegal war.

So when will you start speaking out?

[19jet54]

153. That is mutiny...

... any person in the military, who speaks out against their superior (as you suggest) can be charged with mutiny. A good portion of the Constitution does not apply to persons in the military compared to being a civilian. You need to read the UCMJ & in this case, the Marine Corps Manual. Of course his lawyer makes all sorts of claims, that is his job - realistically, they can and most likely will re-activate him, dis-honorably discharge him for "conduct unbecoming" and take away all of his military benefits, like Timothy McVeigh with no military burial. After the Oklahoma City bombing, a veteran who commits a crime against their country looses their veteran status & benefits. Or they could reactivate him, send him to the front lines in Iraq to the most dangerous mission there (happened allot in Vietnam). These people kill for a living, the enemy & sometime "friendly fire" too. You may call him brave, I call him a law breaker & very naive - now he is in deep shit. We are either a nation of laws or we are in anarchy. Military & Government personnel are not allowed to appear in public, in uniform supporting any political event, except to support the chain of command's official position only.

[proud2BlibKansan]

167. Well he can't be in very deep shit

since they didn't really punish him.

[me b zola]

70. This is not correct. See my post #69 upthread

[annabanana]

87. He wasn't wearing the uniform.... he was wearing a costume.

Today I saw cammo bathing suits, dog booties, bandanas, pants, shirts, hats, all on the way to the beach...

He was doing street theater in costume.

[proud2BlibKansan]

141. bingo!

Yet even here on DU we have 'soldiers' criticizing him.
Sad indeed.

[sanskritwarrior]

144. LOL

soldiers that know the rules.........But hey live in your little fantasy land........That is truly sad..........

[proud2BlibKansan]

146. MY fantasy land???

In case you didn't read my earlier post, I have actually met Adam and I have met his attorneys AND the other two Marines who were ordered to schedule a hearing just like Adam. So I DO know the facts of this case. I spent the last 2 days hearing their story and the Marine Corps' (weak) case against him.

For one thing, the fact that he wore his uniform to a peace event is not really the central part of his case. But since you don't have the information I have, you wouldn't know that, now would you? :eyes:

[sanskritwarrior]

157. LOL and you seem to think his case is THE case.

THE case is that the military is accusing him of wearing his uniform to an event which is not authorized and then hurling an epithet at a superior officer. THAT IS THE CASE.....The lack of knowledge of UCMJ on this board is stunning......POLITICALLY he is right about the war, HOWEVER he broke UCMJ rules at the protest. RIGHT POLITICALLY and WRONG UCMJ-wise........this really isn't a hard concept.......

[ProudDad]

119. There is a higher law

This is an illegal war fought by an alleged government...That trumps anything this young man could do...

SCREW THE "regs"...total bullshit.

Plus, the marines ain't got the balls to come down on this guy...so fuck'em

On edit: Yeah, he "fucked up" like Gandhi fucked up and M L King Jr. fucked up and Jesus Fucking H Christ fucked up... There's A HIGHER LAW than the stupid military myths and bullshit!!!

[Karenina]

18. Anyone else notice Whyte's e-mail

addresses Kokesh as: Cpl? :shrug:

[sanskritwarrior]

20. I think the part where he told the major to go fuck himself

is what is going to screw him. One could say they are unaware of uniform regs, but telling a superior officer to fuck off is a big no-no..........I think he thinks that the day he ETSed from active duty was the day he was free to do what he wants, if he had read the fine print on the contract, he would have seen that he is on the hook to the military for a total of 8 years.....


Edit: I just read all the PDF files on his blog, WOW he brought home a war trophy ( no matter what he claims what he did by buying that gun was a crime, in effect it was a war trophy), was barred from reenlisting and then ETSed. The worst that can happen to him is a less than honorable discharge, but that will still suck............ From my point of view, if he really sent that email and he really was in that protest and he really brought that war trophy home ( all things he admits to) then the Marine Corps is making an example out of him. I can't say I disagree with the USMC, good order and discipline must be maintained. His personal politics are not really the issue, his failure to obey regulations is what pisses me off.........

[treestar]

57. What I find odd about all this is that the marines are supposed to

be so tough - so it sounds inconsistent that they can't cuss up a storm.

[sanskritwarrior]

60. not to a superior and not to a

field grade officer.........Those are against UCMJ and are criminal offenses......

[proud2BlibKansan]

143. You need to study up on this WHOLE story

Adam is not the only Marine being threatened by the Corps. He is just the FIRST. I met 3 others yesterday who have also received letters telling them they are to schedule a hearing just like the one Adam is having today.

What do they all have in common? Not war trophies and not cursing at superior officers.

They are ALL in IVAW and ALL participate in street theater showing the realities of the illegal invasion of Iraq.

No this is not about war trophies.

[sanskritwarrior]

160. If they were wearing their uniforms then they are in trouble

This is getting old fast.............street theater??? WTF??? I'm pretty sure the USMC doesn't care what the young men are calling it, according to the UCMJ there is only one way.......their way. FOR 8 YEARS. Cpl. Kokesh and the others can call it whatever they want, what the Marine Corps calls it is what matters in a UCMJ issue. GOD DAMN, the level of ignorance of the UCMJ is stunning.

[sanskritwarrior]

25. On his website he says he was busted down to CPL before he was

discharged from active duty.........

[RestoreGore]

26. Bush recently had uniformed military standing behind him...

When he was discussing his war funding bill... and I suppose General Boykin wearing his full uniform into a place of worship to preach is OK too. What hypocrites.

[sanskritwarrior]

27. I believe the problem according to the Marines is that

he wore the uniform in an action that was critical of Official American policy. No matter our feelings on the war, it is as of today Official government policy. Wearing the uniform at an official govt. function is not illegal.......That crap boynkin did however is as illegal as what this young man appears to have done..........

Here is the problem: According to Article 2 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, persons subject to military discipline and/or punishment under the UCMJ include "Members of the Fleet Reserve and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve." Kokesh is a member of the Reserve till June 18.

According to Articles 89 and 91 of the UCMJ, Kokesh could face a court-martial for his profane comment to the superior officer, whether commissioned, warrant or noncommissioned. He could thus "be punished as a court-martial may direct.

[RestoreGore]

29. Well, if the policy made is illegal...

Is his behavior illegal? I'm not defending nor accusing the young man (and actually found his language off base,) I'm just saying... The occupation of Iraq is unconstitutional and illegal, so how can his actions then be illegal if the policy is illegal and he is speaking out against it?

[sanskritwarrior]

31. Can you find me a Congressional resolution or a Federal

Supreme Court ruling to back up your illegal war claim? Congress funding the war last week gave an example of what the Legislative branch thinks of the legality of this war. Without the force of Federal court ruling or a congressional resolution, saying the war is illegal does not make it true. I have been trying to tell DUers this for about 6 months now, saying it is illegal does not make it so, only the American Congress or the Federal Courts can make the war illegal, as of today they have not done so.........

[RestoreGore]

37. Courts will claim they have no jurisdiction to interpret UN Resolution 1441

But that doesn't mean they think it legal either. At the very least it is unconstitutional. If you think this occupation is legal just because some warmongers in Congress seeing dollar signs say so by giving Bush carte blanche to use the world as his playground, then I think it is you who are wrong.

"In no sense do I advocate evading or defying the law - that would lead to anarchy. An individual who breaks the law that his conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law." MLK Jr.

[sanskritwarrior]

39. Look I serve the US govt. here is what my oath says.......

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I do not get to determine what is Constitutional, when the military starts deciding what is and what is not Constiutional, then the Republic is truly dead........If and when Congress or the Courts rule the war unconstitutional, then you have an argument. As of today can you prove to me that the war is illegal, and can you prove to me that I am not foregoing my oath by agreeing with you and refusing to fight.

[RestoreGore]

53. Then you should know what the constitution says...

And be able to figure that our for yourself.

[sanskritwarrior]

54. What does that mean?

I don't get to decide what is and what is not Constitutional. In fact the day I and the rest of the military do so, our Republic is dead forever.......

I never understand this particular argument, who is the enemy of the Constitution? What branch of govt designated who the enemy of the Constitution is? What law, court ruling, or executive decision are they basing this identification of an enemy of the Constitution on? And what makes you think that soldiers get to determine what is and what is not Constitutional? Doesn't that make us wrong if we act against the "as of today" legal orders of that Government?

[me b zola]

72. Since you have repeated this misinformation throughout the thread....

A reservists is not subject to the UCMJ unless they are on orders, meaning if they are drilling or doing an OP.

[sanskritwarrior]

123. My status is active

and I think you are incorrect, we shall see tommorrow. I've seen people get fried two years after they ETSed and one day before their IRR time was up........Again we shall see.

[proud2BlibKansan]

149. That is exactly what Adam's legal team said

I think that is a key part of the case they were planning to present.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. There were lots of us in the IRR doing the same in the '60s/'70s. Even LBJ and Nixon didn't do this

Or as we used to say on Active Duty, "Eat the apple and fuck the corps."

[NMDemDist2]

32. ok, correct me in I'm wrong, but isn't camo worn all the time, all over the place

by everybody from babies



to grandpas to freaking cars!



if you go to a freeper convention, you'll see camo everywhere. it's their idea of a fashion statement.

I guess it's just us dirty liberals that can't wear the blessed camo then??

:banghead:

[sanskritwarrior]

33. The uniform was worn in an event

that was critical of Official American policy..........The protest was against the war and as long as the war is legal and fully funded, then it is OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT POLICY. That is how Bush is able to have all those ceremonies with the troops, that is events that are supportive of Official American policy. For example: what boynkin did was wrong in that church, what this guy did at the protest was equally wrong if he is in fact still in the reserves..........

[NMDemDist2]

36. so he'd be OK if he was wearing a tee and jeans? being in the reserves

makes him a 2nd class citizen?

this issue has me so confused. I can't believe they're even going there......

[sanskritwarrior]

38. YES

wearing the uniform is against regulations........They are going there because good order and discipline must be maintained at any cost, politically the kid did nothing wrong, from a UCMJ perspective he did a lot wrong.......Cursing out a field grade officer also now opens him up to a court martial if the USMC wants to pursue it..........Not a 2nd class citizen at all, one can still protest, one may not protest in the uniform of the branch of service they are in........Until June 18th 2007 he is still a Marine, he might be IRR, but.........

According to Article 2 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, persons subject to military discipline and/or punishment under the UCMJ include "Members of the Fleet Reserve and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve." Kokesh is a member of the Reserve till June 18.

[NMDemDist2]

46. but he wasn't wearing the uniform. that's my point. He was wearing camos

everywhere I've looked it clearly states that all 'insignia' had been removed

so when is a uniform a uniform??

[sanskritwarrior]

49. LOL you're not getting it

He had on part of the uniform, he took some of it off, he was now officially "out of uniform" which in and of itself is a violation. By being out of uniform by taking the rank and names off, one must be in uniform to do so. Therefore the military logic is he was in uniform when he decided to go to a protest that is against Official Government Policy, he removed items from said uniform making him out of uniform which like I said is in and of itself a violation. So he was in uniform to attend the rally when he became out of uniform at the rally, thereby proving he was appearing at a protest rally in uniform..........It's pretty airtight from a UCMJ POV.............

[NMDemDist2]

51. ok, that is so freaking fucked up I'm sending $20 to the legal defense fund

:shrug:

[sanskritwarrior]

52. Politically I want to, but

my being a crusty old NCO I can't bring myself to do it. I won't help the military hang the guy out to dry, but I'm personally not giving money to a guy that broke UCMJ and then disrespected a field grade officer. I'm happy you are gonna send money, I just can't bring myself to do it.........

[NMDemDist2]

55. well, I love an underdog

:patriot: to you Sarge :hi:

[Karenina]

63. He was participating in STREET THEATER

as a private citizen which makes him an actor playing a role wearing a COSTUME. I read your explanation till my head started to spin... :rofl:
and here's the chink in the armour. ;-)

Private Citizen decides to participate in street theater.

Needs costume. Looks in closet. PERFECT! An old uniform!

Private Citizen exercises rudimentary sewing skills, alterations magically turn garment into COSTUME!!!

Private Citizen Actor dons COSTUME before leaving house.

So you see, he was NEVER in UNIFORM!!! (How did I do???)

[sanskritwarrior]

88. He is not a private citizen

until june 18th, 2007........That is the whole frikking point, are you being obtuse on purpose? He is still a Marine until June 18th 2007..........So sayeth the UCMJ and the contract he signed on June 19th, 1999........

[proud2BlibKansan]

150. LOL tell his attorneys that

[sanskritwarrior]

161. Apparently the USMC told his attorneys that.........

[proud2BlibKansan]

166. And their ruling doesn't reflect that he was worthy of

losing his benefits.

[Ghost in the Machine]

90. NO ONE will ever "get it" from reading your explanation. Circular logic

is hard to follow for me.

"He had on part of the uniform, he took some of it off, he was now officially "out of uniform" which in and of itself is a violation.

Ok, I haven't read that deeply into the article or followed all of the links yet. Did he have his regular uniform on at first, then take the insignia off when he arrived at the rally? If he was "now offically "out of uniform"", where's the problem?

"By being out of uniform by taking the rank and names off, one must be in uniform to do so."

Really? So he couldn't have held it on his lap in front of him and removed the insignia? Or laid it on his bed or table? Quick question? If the name and insignia were removed, can they PROVE it was his uniform, and not one bought from an army/navy surplus store? (Serious question because I don't know if their clothes are tagged anywhere else with their name, rank and/or serial number)

"Therefore the military logic is he was in uniform when he decided to go to a protest that is against Official Government Policy,"

Again, when did he remove the insignia, etc? I'll just flat out admit here again, I have read the article fully nor have I followed the links. I don't visit very many other sites for anything really, except for my email, in which I do read some news there once in a great while. I depend on DU to get my information. I don't "browse" around much and really only go to MySpace, Ebay and my own sites.

"he removed items from said uniform making him out of uniform which like I said is in and of itself a violation."

It's a violation to be out of uniform while off duty??

"So he was in uniform to attend the rally when he became out of uniform at the rally, thereby proving he was appearing at a protest rally in uniform"

Oh god! Please make my head stop spinning... and spinning... I'm getting dizzy!


Oh wait... was this sarcasm? My sarcasm meter has been off lately for some reason..

edited: to fix html tag

[sanskritwarrior]

128. LOL see post 126........

[kiteinthewind]

107. He is a private citizen. Not active military. Not the military Reserves.

[sanskritwarrior]

129. See post 126

he is not a private citizen

[kiteinthewind]

111. Well, his attorney does not agree with you.

[proud2BlibKansan]

151. How do you know it was HIS uniform?

How do you know he didn't buy the uniform at a military surplus store? Or even a garage sale?

[kiteinthewind]

104. Actually, I believe he was wearing jeans, t=shirt, and a camo shirt over the t-shirt, unbuttoned

like a jacket, clearly not a uniform. He is a private citizen (with 1st Amendment Constitutional rights). He is in the 'Ready Reserves', not active Reserves. His hearing is tomorrow here in KC. He spoke at our peace rally today. The IVAW Peace Bus came into town at like 7am this morning. We had a potluck after the rally. We will be standing in support of him at the USMC hearing tomorrow. This is about silencing, by example, the relevant speech of vets who have seen the quagmire first hand. This man, and those vets standing with him, are true patriots. :patriot:

[sanskritwarrior]

130. See post 126

[lonestarnot]

34. Yeah and what about that shit they sell at the second hand joints

and army surplus stores. Kid has some for paint balling.

[sanskritwarrior]

35. AHHHHHH

the guy is still a Marine, a Marine may not wear a uniform to an event that is critical of Official Government Policy........given those facts........

According to Article 2 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, persons subject to military discipline and/or punishment under the UCMJ include "Members of the Fleet Reserve and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve." Kokesh is a member of the Reserve till June 18.

According to Articles 89 and 91 of the UCMJ, Kokesh could face a court-martial for his profane comment to the superior officer, whether commissioned, warrant or noncommissioned. He could thus "be punished as a court-martial may direct.

This has nothing to do with liberal or conservative, it has to do with a young man that did not read the fine print on his enlistment contract...

[Karenina]

40. BUT, BUT, BUT...

He was OUT OF UNIFORM, wasn't he? No insignia and I bet his boots weren't shined! Had he shown up for inspection dressed as he was, would he not have had, "SOLDIER, YOU'RE OUT OF UNIFORM!!!" screamed in his face? Just asking. :shrug:

[sanskritwarrior]

41. Wearing the digital print uniform is in uniform

Had he worn blue jeans with the digital print blouse he might have been ok......I'm not a uniform expert, I know that had he been my soldier, I would have fried his ass. Not for his politics, his street theater idea is cool, but because he broke regs. Had he smarted off at the mouth to me, I would have had his ass in a court martial sling in 10 seconds.

By UCMJ standards, the only standards that matter is such an issue, he was wrong. This is not about politics "overtly" there might be a covert attempt to silence dissent, but the charges are legit, I would have charged him had he been in the Army reserves and I had the power. Had he waited until June 18th, 2007, no one could ever touch him.........and I would have shook his hand.......but he didn't do that, he did it while still in service.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lonestarnot]

65. Git down James Brown Bonobo! Woot.

[sanskritwarrior]

131. Thanks for your rudeness towards me

[jollyreaper2112]

67. I understand your point but disagree

I know that it's necessary to have order and regs in the military. I know that it's bad when someone feels they can go off and do whatever they want without consequence. But whenever I read about these stories it's always the grunts getting burned for violating the regs when we know damn well that their superiors and the whole fucking military establishment violates those same rules without compunction. My point is that the whole fucking thing becomes a sham. I feel the same way when I see cops breaking the law or read about them raiding the wrong house, gunning down a grannie and planting drugs on her corpse. So wait a second, I have to respect the officer, I have to kiss his jackboots and act like a whipped cur to respect the fucking law when these assholes are breaking it left and right and their superiors are covering for them?!?! I know as far as my own situation goes it's only smart to act like that whipped cur and show the pig every deference in the world or else my ass will be hauled to jail. Part of being smart is knowing when to pick your fights and you will never win fighting a cop. But god damnit, this erodes the very social fabric of our country. Great, so now it's common knowledge that you can't trust the pigs and they'll never do shit for you if it involves getting out of their donut cruisers and doing honest work. And what this says about the military is you're a fucking fool for joining up because you will get bent over and fucked three ways from Sunday as a matter of course. And if you do anything to protest what you feel to be an unjust injury to your person, you're going to get bent over the other way and fucked again.

How is it that when a poor person violates a contract or breaks the law it's an OMFG criminal case but when the government does it they call it a policy dispute?

[kiteinthewind]

148. Yes, what you said, jollyreaper!

:yourock:

[Tatiana]

42. That's what I was thinking. And his military insignia was removed.

So I think they need to call it a day and leave him alone. It would be wrong to re-enlist and then dishonorably discharge him. And if they want to go after him, then we need to find the photos of all the folks in military uniform at Republican campaign stops and fundraisers and ask whether these folks have also been prosecuted.

[sanskritwarrior]

44. PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!

He has never been fully demobbed from the military. He is in the IRR or Fleet Marine Reserve, he is still a Marine. He is a Marine until June 18th 2007. Until that day he is subject to UCMJ action. There is no reenlistment going on as there has been no final end of the original service contract. When you enlist you enlist for 8 YEARS, a set number of years active duty and the rest of the years in the IRR. You still must abide by UCMJ regulations concerning protests, uniforms, etc.........I know a lot of people are not familiar with the military, but that is the reality. If Kokesh did these things, and he is in the IRR, then they probably have him of everything they are accusing him of............

[1776Forever]

73. Reasons For Discharge - Disability = Key Difference

OK - I am not a lawyer but this seems pretty clear since I read on Sgt. Kokesh blog that he was given an Honorable discharge for disability he received in Iraq - see below:

http://www.answers.com/topic/military-discharge

Reasons For Discharge

Contrary to the popular belief, the vast majority of those leaving the service after completing an initial enlistment are separated rather than discharged. The key difference lies in that a discharge completely alleviates the veteran of any unfulfilled military service obligation, whereas a separation (which may be voluntary or involuntary) may leave an additional unfulfilled military service obligation (MSO) to be carried out in the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR). Nonetheless, approximately one in three recruits will fail to complete their first enlistment in the US military.

Below are some of the most common reasons for discharge:

Expiration of Term of Service (ETS)
Disability, Dependency, or Hardship
Pregnancy/Parenthood
Physical or Mental Conditions that interfere with military service
Convenience of The Government/Secretarial Authority
Unsuitability
Misconduct - Minor Disciplinary Infractions
Entry-Level Performance and Conduct

[sanskritwarrior]

47. Tatiana here is the problem

He wore a uniform while at a function that was critical of OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT POLICY. We can rail about the war all we want, but until the war is defunded or deauthorized it is official US policy. Soldiers at Bush speeches are not in violation of this particular rule...........

Kokesh is still in the Marines for 2 and a half more weeks, he wore a uniform at a protest...........

[Karenina]

56. It wasn't a "uniform!!!"

He was doing street theater. It was a COSTUME!!! :evilgrin:

[sanskritwarrior]

59. Karenina

HE IS STILL A MARINE, according to the Marines, that was a uniform, according to UCMJ if the Marines say it was a uniform and he is still a Marine, which he is until June 18,2007, then he is wrong. It doesn't matter what you or he says, the Marines hold the authority over a Marine that broke a UCMJ regulation while he was still a Marine. His politics are commendable, his breakingof UCMJ regulations is deplorable. Had he done this on June 19th 2007, I would have bought him a beer, but he didn't so I tend to agree with the military, purely on regulations, not politics........

[NW_BEAST]

93. As much as I HATE to follow regs.

Sandskitwarrior is correct, I'm sad to say. Ex-sailor, 10 years out, and even THEN active duty or RR, you tell a superior officer to go fuck himself (especially when said officer was whats seems to me kindly attempting to address an issue he probably thought was ridiculous anyway.) is bound for the brig.

I disagree with the reg to some degree....however military bearing (can't spell), must be maintained...were I still in uniform, I would have nothing but sympathy, empathy, and admiration for the attitude....but I wouldn't be able to help but say, "Dude, you fucked up. Hope you don't get nailed."

[me b zola]

155. Boy, they sold you a bill of goods (load of shit)

A reservist has the same civil liberties as any other civilian when they are not on orders (drilling, on an OP, or activaed/deployed). You are only subject to the UCMJ when you are on orders.

Jesus, how many years have they conned you into believing that they still had power over your life?

[sanskritwarrior]

162. LOL you obviously have not read the regulations

I have posted them enough times if you care to read them...........UCMJ applies to all enlisted soldiers for their contract which is usually 8 YEARS.

[me b zola]

169. I have read the regs...and you continue to misrepresent them

Why did you not respond upthread to the GMT (general military training) that I attened? Are you worried about calling the officer who gave the GMT a liar?

The GMT that I am speaking about was specifically given to let reservists know when they are and when they are not subject to the UCMJ.

Being subject to the UCMJ has nothing to do with being in uniform, but everything to do when you are on orders. I gave an illistration upthread that you chose not to respond to, let's try another. When I was in Guam on the very few hours of liberty (free time, not in uniform) that we were allowed, we were still on orders and subject to the UCMJ. At the end of our OP, whether we were in uniform or not we were no longer subject to the UCMJ. Similarily, when our orders expired (whether we are in uniform or not) so does our ability to access military health care.

There was another poster (a couple now that I think about it) a while back that I swore was posting as a part of his job for the pentagon. Your insistence in this thread of misrepresenting military law and the rules for reservists makes me believe that you too are on the clock for the pentagon.

[Karenina]

170. Tick-tock!

:kick:

[me b zola]

172. .

:loveya:

[Bonobo]

171. I love watching you hand this guy his head...

[kiteinthewind]

112. He was discharged already. Honorable Discharge. That means inactive.

[sanskritwarrior]

132. Still a Marine

8 years total........X number of years active, Y number of years remaining totalling 8 years.......you might be a civilian but the UCMJ still has sway over you for 8 TOTAL years.......

[Tatiana]

62. I'm reading "Restrictions on Wearing Uniforms" section (1003) of the code:

1. Members of the Marine Corps and Marine Corps Reserves including retired Marines, are prohibited from wearing the Marine Corps uniform while engaged in any of the following activities, functions, or circumstances unless specifically authorized by the CMC (PA):

a. Soliciting funds for any purpose from the public outside of a military base or establishment.

b. Participating in any type of show or event which is commercially sponsored for advertising purposes, where it could be implied or construed that the Marine Corps "endorses" the product advertised.

c. "Endorsing" commercial products in such ways as to involve the uniform, title, grade or rate, or in any way establish or imply their military affiliation with such products.

d. Appearing or participating in any event in public that would compromise the dignity of the uniform.

2. Whenever any doubt exists as to the propriety of wearing the Marine Corps uniform under circumstances similar to those enumerated above, specific requests should be directed to the CMC (MCUB/PA). For further information on those laws and directives, which govern the authority to wear the uniform, refer to Chapter 11.

So I went to Chapter 11 for the DOD laws and the one I see that looks like it pertains to this situation is the following:

From 11002-

The wearing of the uniform is prohibited under any of the following circumstances:
(3) Except when authorized by competent Service Authority when participating in activities such as public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies or any public demonstration (including those pertaining to civil rights), which may imply Service sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted.

The PDF file of the entire code can be found here:

http://www.usmc.mil/directiv.nsf/0dce83e13c9c8aa685256c0c0066c2e0/6d62f5fbea2cc03a85256850005ee8de?OpenDocument

Again, it is obvious that several military personnel engage in the sort of activities which would preclude wearing of the military uniform and they are not reprimanded or prosecuted. I hope this guy gets a good lawyer. It looks like there is some wiggle room here - not much, but a little that could clear him.

[Crabby Appleton]

66. He removed some, but not all of the insignia from his uniform

specifically the USMC eagle, globe & anchor that appears on the left pocket and hat. Marine issue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARPAT">MARPAT has the eagle, globe & anchor USMC logo incorporated into the digital pattern.

[maggiegault]

96. Hey, AZ, I just saw camo shorts and capris for girls and women at the Desert Ridge Target Greatland.

[Squatch]

43. "We all know that people give up some individual rights when they join the military"

Can somebody show me where I gave up my individual rights when I took my oath of office?

I, Squatch, having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.

[sanskritwarrior]

45. It's in the contract somewhere

probably on page 5,517 in Pig Latin in font that is .5........... :)

When you headed to the sandbox squatch? I'm going over in December..........again

[Squatch]

48. I'm not under contract to the military.

My contract expired in 2005, though I am still active duty. I can quit today, if I wanted to.

Anyways...looks like October for me. Maybe we'll bump into each other...

[sanskritwarrior]

50. You are an officer then?

Well things are different then, they just cashier you.......... Or are you past 20???

As for me rumorintel has us going to Diyala............HOORAY.........:thumbsdown:

[Tsiyu]

86. As for you, I would wager that if this soldier died in Iraq

you would just shrug. Since he broke all the supposed rigid "rules" you obsess over, you, well. obsess on this thread over him and his "heinous transgressions.".

How many words would you have devoted to his death had he suffered as 14 more have just in the past day?

Kinda miss the big picture much?


:grr:

[sanskritwarrior]

133. I'm not missing anything

apparently however you missed the part where I agreed with him politically.......But hey let's not have any rules in the military that's the ticket.......... :eyes: Welcome to my ignore list.

[Tsiyu]

135. Thank you

And now a pause to consider: you have devoted profuse verbiage to the rules....over and over and over in this thread.

We GET that you are into the rules. Total strawman to suggest I think it's "the ticket" to have no rules in the military. I never said any such thing. I understand why that thought frightens you, though. You've basically hijacked this thread repeating those rules as if none of us could read your opinion the first time. Or the second. Or the seventh.

But then, your only response to me is to throw out a strawman and then put me on ignore? Warrior spirit there! Big tough one......flinging poo. I am SOOOO impressed with your courage and valor in verbal combat!

Listen, the only thing I want to know is:

IF THIS SOLDIER DIED IN IRAQ WOULD YOU USE AS MANY WORDS PONTIFICATING ON HIS DEMISE AS YOU'VE USED BABBLING ABOUT THE RULES???????

[treestar]

58. Sounds to me like you not only have them still, you are supporting

and defending them - too bad we let the right wing make the meme "support the troops" when it should be "support the Constitution" along with the troops, who are doing that.

[file83]

64. Adam Kokesh should have read the fine print on the email:

"FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY - MAY CONTAIN PRIVACY SENSITIVE INFORMATION. Any misuse or unauthorized disclosure may result in both civil and criminal penalties"

Well, if they don't get him on the uniform charge, they can certainly get him on publication of the email without authorization.

Or is that disclaimer just bullshit?

[Richard Steele]

68. Nothing I can really add to that except, "recommended". Recommended.

[Captain Hilts]

74. They went after military personnel that attended political rallies in 2006.

That snared a lot of conseratives who thought appearing on stage in uniform with your member of Congress was okay. It wasn't.

I think the Big Issue here is not the political activity, but how they are choosing to define those subject to the rule. The rule itself is a good one, and the Pentagon went after a whole bunch of conservatives over it last fall.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

76. Are there any links with examples of Republican supporting military members getting in trouble for

stuff like this?

[Karenina]

78. THAT'S what I wanna know.

What does "they went after them" really mean?

[Captain Hilts]

84. Yes, I read of several cases. The military said to stop doing so. It sounds like...

the Marines are trying to extend the categories of people over whom they have control over on these issues.

A lot of members of Congress took the war as an excuse to have trumped up political rallies. They were told to cease and desist and this order affect consevatives more than liberals actually.

But, yes, a bunch of troops - and memebers of Congress - for turning local award/welcoming ceremonies into political rallies and got in trouble for it. So, why the president still gets away with making political speeches in front of military personnel, I do not know.

The fellow above says there's an eight year rule. I didn't know about that. I guess you're a marine for a minimum of eight years.

[1776Forever]

89. Kokesh got out on disability from Iraq - honorable discharge - Key difference!

I posted this earlier but I wanted to make sure it was seen by you since you brought this up again - OK - I am not a lawyer but this seems pretty clear since I read on Sgt. Kokesh blog that he was given an Honorable discharge for disability he received in Iraq - see below:

http://www.answers.com/topic/military-discharge

Reasons For Discharge

Contrary to the popular belief, the vast majority of those leaving the service after completing an initial enlistment are separated rather than discharged. The key difference lies in that a discharge completely alleviates the veteran of any unfulfilled military service obligation, whereas a separation (which may be voluntary or involuntary) may leave an additional unfulfilled military service obligation (MSO) to be carried out in the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR). Nonetheless, approximately one in three recruits will fail to complete their first enlistment in the US military.

Below are some of the most common reasons for discharge:

Expiration of Term of Service (ETS)
Disability, Dependency, or Hardship
Pregnancy/Parenthood
Physical or Mental Conditions that interfere with military service
Convenience of The Government/Secretarial Authority
Unsuitability
Misconduct - Minor Disciplinary Infractions
Entry-Level Performance and Conduct

[1776Forever]

154. Kokesh was not given an honarable discharge as yet - I stand corrected -

This was reported tonight June 4:

By Carey Gillam KANSAS CITY, Missouri (Reuters)-

A U.S. military disciplinary panel on Monday recommended that a decorated combat Marine be involuntarily discharged after he joined an anti-war demonstration and spoke out against the Iraq war.

The three-member panel at a Marine command center in Kansas City recommended that 25-year-old Marine Cpl. Adam Kokesh be given a general discharge -- one step below an "honorable discharge" and a reflection of "significant negative" conduct.

.......

Kokesh said he would appeal the recommendation, which stops short of the honorable discharge he wants but is better than the dishonorable discharge that could have been recommended.

"I'm standing on principle and we're going to contest this on principle. It's not going to go away," he said.

Kokesh is one of three U.S. Iraq combat veterans and members of a group called Iraq Veterans Against the War whom the government has threatened to punish over their roles in the anti-war demonstration.

Kokesh was also charged with misconduct for responding to a Marine investigator with a profanity.

He maintained that he has been acting as a civilian since his discharge from active duty in November 2006 and decried the action by the Marines as a restraint on freedom of speech and a "corrupt" and political act by the U.S. military.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

91. I asked for examples because I honestly never heard of a single case.

[proud2BlibKansan]

168. Got any links?

[Midlodemocrat]

81. Best. thread. title. Ever.

:applause:

[yurbud]

82. are you sure Bush could correctly identify a squirrel?

[OxQQme]

92. TROOPS!!!! ATTENTION!!!!

"All right, here's the plan of action."

"You, Sargeant McClusky, Take two squads and go down by the waterfront."

"You, Sargeant Smith, coordinate with Lieutenant Jones to pincer the enemy and haul them in here."

"We're going to put an end to those dirty brown people thinking they can just come into our homeland any old time they want. We're going to fry them in that..................."

Now you tell me sanskrit, if McClusky and Smith and all of those 'subordinate' troops in those squads aren't then "BROWN SHIRTS" if they blindly follow orders that are morally unjustifiable.

I am ex-jarhead. '58-'62
I was taught primarily how to target and call in naval gunfire onto land targets, air guns secondarily.
And I am so thankful that I only had to fire upon practice targets.
Don't know how I could have lived with myself if I'd ever killed another human.

[sanskritwarrior]

97. What are you on about?

UCMJ is the law of the military, as long as one is a soldier one must obey, if one does not obey one can be punished. I'm on the guy's side politically, frankly I'm getting tired of repeating that, but I am against him in that he violated UCMJ. You're little example is in no way shape or form pertinent to this discussion.......IF he is still a Marine, then he is in violation......It's that simple, and it's not political, it's the UCMJ.........

[eggplant]

108. Could you repeat it one more time?

I'm not sure the folks in the back heard it the hundredth time you said exactly the same thing. :-(

[tiptoe]

94. k & r

[rainy]

95. What about Bush landing on the deck in full flight gear when he deserted? nt

[cascadiance]

99. And of course we have to always "respect the flag" as well...

... and not use it at all since we are "Un-Americans", and yet this bum finds a way to abuse it and not get taken to task for it!

[ProudDad]

120. Piss on ALL flags! (n/t)

[sagesnow]

101. Semper Fi, Semper Lie.

From a sign seen at a Peace Protest at Offutt Airforce Base 3 years ago.

[Gatchaman]

102. I hope this blows up in their faces

with all the documentation of ACTIVE DUTY military personnel being paraded around in uniform at republican events, it's a level of hypocricy that's seldom seen, even among republicans.

I keep coming back to a phrase by George Carlin: "This is what's known as being stunningly, and embarassingly, full of shit."

[malaise]

103. Adam

:yourock:

[unkachuck]

105. Adam Kokesh, PFC....

....I salute you!

[hfojvt]

110. a soft answer turneth away wrath

If I understand this, the issue is that he was still part of the Reserves, per his enlistment/discharge agreement for another 15 days.

As far as the other examples go, I am guessing they would argue they were not political events, since the people in question were part of the Government. Similar to how your Congress-critter sends out political messages under the guise of 'informing his/her constituents'. Or SOTU. That is technically not a political event, but every President uses it to advance his policies and criticize his opponents.

[OxQQme]

113. So,sanskrit,

those troops that fired on the students at Kent State were just following orders. Right?
Those troops that loaded the Jews into the ovens were just following orders. Right?
Those bombardiers that unloaded daisy cutters onto whole towns full of civilians were just following orders. Right?

I was a Marine and I know of following orders and the UCMJ.
Also familiar with the Constitution.

[sanskritwarrior]

124. hahahaha

so exactly what does the Constitution say I as a soldier should be doing? And can you cite which article it is in?

[rossmonster]

115. The Obvious Comeback....

Hi,
everyone is disputing whether the gentleman in quesiton was in the marines at the time or not, active reserve or not, was in uniform or not. However noone is making the obvious comparison.

Guantanamo bay is full of inmates who were not extended the rights of POW under the geneva conventions based on the fact they did not wear a recognisable uniform. As such they were deemed "unlawful combatants" as they could not be associated with any organised fighting force, though many, presumably wore parts of russian, pakistani or old afghani uniforms.

The gentleman in question in the photos is a) not wearing dog tags in the pictures I saw b) not wearing any rank insignia c) is not wearing anything that would obiously identify his country or allegience such as a flag or national crest d) is not wearing an obvious name tag.

So how come a detainee can wind up labeled "unlawful battlefield combatant" andinserted into guantanomo bay on the basis of having no recognisable uniform, whilst this gentleman who has exactly the same lack of identifiable uniform, is guilty of representing a countries armed forces illegally?

This is rank hypocracy and should be pointed out by those of you who can do so.

BTW: As for camoflague patterns being some form of identifiable uniform, think again. During WWII between normandy and the fall of paris in mid 44, some small number of US troops were issued with a spotted camoflague uniform that looked exactly like german parachute unit camoflague at the time. The result was lots of friendly fire incidents with other US troops and the uniform was pulled and only used in the pacific. If one of those men was captured by the germans, his only protection under the geneva convention would have been his dog tags. Similarly, any allied flyer shot down without dog tags was at instant risk of being shot as a sabotuer.

Likewise, many pro US middle east countries militaries, and a lot of trendy 18 year old females wear various parts of the 1991 gulf war camo pattern.

[flyarm]

117. wait a second..our military take an oath to defend our constitution from foreign and domestic enemy'

enemy's right?? well anyone following pissy pants orders is an enemy of our constitution ..since pissy pants broke the laws of our constitution..so why couldn't that reserve say he was defending our contitution by defying his commander who by supporting pissy pants orders his commander was an enemy of the constitution!!

our constitution says we must follow all treaty's signed ..as if they are part of the original constitution..so pissy pants has shit all over the geneva conventions..there by making pissypants and anyone following his orders also breaking our laws under our constituion..right??????????

so how would any soldier follow the oath, if their superiors told them to break that oath by following orders of the domestic enemy.. who told them to break the law???

so how exactly does any soldier defend the constitution when those above them are breaking the laws in the constitution??????

they were sent to war based on lies..article 1 section 10 says we can not go to war unless attacked or their is imminent threat of attack..so we all know pissy pants broke that part of the law within our constitution..

then our constitution says we must follow all signed treaties as if they were our law..geneva is being broken daily by pissy pants...

so the enemy of the constitution is domestic..so how does any soldier defend the constitution from enemy's foreign or domestic when they have to follow orders of those who are breaking the laws????????

of course MR DESERTER himself has his own laws..fuck the constitution, fuck his own service and his own desertion..we know the commander fought the great wars of texas and arkansas from the confines of a bar stool and cocaine dens...but wtf...everyone else will follow his fucked up orders no matter what..and don't even get me started on anal cysts or five deferments dick..the dick who can't shoot ducks straight!! You know the champion hunter who didn't see fit to wear the US Uniform but has no problems starting wars!! wars he was too gutless to every uniform up for!!

I just wonder how any soldiers stands behind any of these cowards and does not spit on them!

or how any vet does not spit on these rotten war criminal cowards!

fly

[upi402]

122. That PFC and is lawyer were right on

Heard them on Air America. Sounds pretty laid back to be as ballsy as that... FU to the CO, so to speak.

[sanskritwarrior]

126. Last post for me in this thread.

This thread has been highly enlightening, I have at no time challenged this mans political views, in fact I said I supported them. However, that does not excuse his behavior and his open defiance of UCMJ regulations. These regulations form the glue that holds the military together, anyone serious about supporting the troops and believing in fairness should not give this guy a pass because he did something politically that we like. No matter what anyone says or claims to know or has heard, the UCMJ says the guy is military property until the 8 years are complete. How do I know this, the UCMJ tells me so.......

First things first, he is still in the USMC and subject to UCMJ.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitivearticles/a/ucmjsubject.htm

from the link:

Who is subject to UCMJ:

1.Members of a regular component of the armed forces, including those awaiting discharge after expiration of their terms of enlistment; volunteers from the time of their muster or acceptance into the armed forces; inductees from the time of their actual induction into the armed forces; and other persons lawfully called or ordered into, or to duty in or for training in, the armed forces, from the dates when they are required by the terms of the call or order to obey it.

6. Members of the Fleet Reserve and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve.

In both cases Kokesh meets the criteria for still being in service, that means that he is subject to UCMJ, if one violates UCMJ then here is what can happen

A member of a reserve component who is not on active duty and who is made the subject of proceedings under section 81 (article 15) or section 830 (article 30) with respect to an offense against this chapter may be ordered to active duty involuntarily for the purpose of (A) investigation under section 832 of this title (article 32)(B) trial by court-martial; or (C) nonjudicial punishment under section 815 of this title (article 15).

It also says the following, which I believe many people are latching onto to say they can't bring him up on charges

A member of a reserve component may not be ordered to active duty under paragraph (1) except with respect to an offense committed while the member was (A) on active duty; or (B) on inactive-duty training, but in the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal service.

However that regulation can be nullified by the following regulation.

A member may be ordered to active duty under paragraph (1) only by a person empowered to convene general courts-martial in a regular component of the armed forces.

What that means is that only someone on active duty status with the authority to convene a courts martial can bring kokesh off of active duty and charge him. This is exactly what has happened.

So according to UCMJ, not his lawyer, but the Regs themselves, he is still a member of the USMC until June 18th, 2007. I have tried to explain courts martial before and people scoff at me, it has almost no bearing that a civilian lawyer is going to say that he is a civilian. The Marine in charge of the hearing will hold up the regulation and ask Cpl. Kokesh what his 8 year date is. Cpl. Kokesh will say June 18, 2007 which he himself has said and at that point, they will go into an Article 32 hearing. He will be able to call his character witnesses and that will be nice, but his character is not at stake here, what is at stake is whether he violated the regs or not.

Here's a little secret, old sanskrit warrior has been in an article 15 hearing. Many years ago I was a young buck sergeant and I disobeyed a direct order from a LTC to make soldiers work in the heat in what I believed were dangerous conditions which could have injured those soldiers on my team. 2 weeks later I asked for the hearing over the court martial, I pleaded my case citing weather data, bringing in witnesses from the SWO (Staff Weather Office) and bringing in medics to describe what could have happened had those soldiers been heat casualties. My wife took the stand and pleaded for me not to be punished as it would be a financial detriment to our household. I was in the right......guess what? I still got the article 15 the reduction in rank, the forfeiture of pay and allowances. At the time I was furious, now many years later I see the wisdom of the UCMJ. If I disobeyed that order and others disobeyed orders, soon good order and discipline in the United States military would be gone. And that would mean the US military would cease to be a cohesive fighting unit and would be a rabble, a gang if you will. So my point is that it appears according to the regs that Cpl. Kokesh was still a Marine, if he is still a Marine then he screwed up.

As for his uniform, a Marine is in uniform if he is wearing the uniform, any or all pieces of it......

I had to look this one up, here it is

http://usmilitary.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.usmc.mil/directiv.nsf/df51342d91236d2685256517004eb026/87f31144d04a360285256778006e75a0%3FOpenDocument

Section F describes how a military person may not appear at a protest while in uniform. Section H describes what kind of groups a military member may be in, and also points out the punishments for violation of this regulation.

As to what a uniform entails, the uniform Cpl. Kokesh wore had a USMC insignia on it, according to the Marines, wearing that form of camo with insignia on it and being a Marine in the IRR is a violation of the UCMJ....

Here is Marine uniform top:



Cpl. Kokesh took off his rank and nametapes, however the Eagle, globe and anchor insignia is digitally imprinted into the fabric, if he is wearing one of these tops with this insignia he is in uniform. I had to ask a neighbor of mine who was a Marine about this one.

Here is Cpl. Kokesh in another pic from upthread



See the hat with the digital logo in the fabric, this is in fact being un uniform according to the Marines.

One of the things the military takes very seriously is its appearance. Every person who enlists in the military is taught the proper way to wear a uniform as part of bootcamp training. You are also taught when and where you can wear your uniforms. Wearing your uniform incorrectly is a violation of the UCMJ and is punishable. Just wearing a part of your uniform - even your socks - outside of your legally prescribed duties is a UCMJ offense. It doesn’t matter why you are out of proper uniform. This is what is driving me nuts about this thread, everyone is saying he is protesting and he should be given a pass........boynkin was given a pass and it was wrong, he should have faced UCMJ punishments. Just because a guy on our side is a bonehead, does not mean he gets a pass.....DUers wake the fuck up, one day when we might need the military and these regulations are the glue that holds the military together. Just because a guy was right politically doesn't mean he is right for his violation of UCMJ. What an anti-military sentiment by some of you, it's wrong when the other side does it, but it's ok when our side does it because he is right politically, how sick is that?

Finally there is the whole reenlisting him argument which is bullshit, here is what happened:

The Marine Corps tried to handle the issue of UCMJ violation by sending CPL Kokesh an official letter informing him of his obligations and asking him to cease and desist. He replied “go fuck yourself”.

Since the email was addressed to a superior officer, this is a separate offense under UCMJ. Yes, military people often use that sort of language. but understand that any written communication signed by a superior officer is considered to be an order. Disobeying an order is a fairly serious offense under the UCMJ.

So CPL Kokesh is facing three violations of the UCMJ. The standard procedure for the military would be to re-activate him so he can face a court-marshall. From what I gather, this is actually what is happening.

The question is: Is the Marine Corps “changing” his discharge? The answer is “no”. CPL Kokesh received an honorable discharge that removed him from active duty and placed him in the IRR. When he is called back to active duty, he will again be discharged from the IRR into active duty. He will then face a court-martial and face the possibility of having a discharge that is not an honorable discharge.

Lastly someone said the rightwing gets away with it............not all the time here is a story from YUCK World Net Daily

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51988

A chaplain that appeared at a Press conference with that loon Roy Moore was reprimanded and fined. What he did is no different than this case.

When you become a member of the US military, you agree to follow their rules. You can chafe under them, but as long as your commitment remains, you must fulfill the letter of your agreement or face the possibility of punishment.

Cpl. Kokesh is brave and politically correct, he is wrong about the UCMJ however. So if you are going to attack me, attack me on the facts, not on your own little bullshit theories about how you are right and the regulations are wrong.

This post was compiled from my own thoughts, official USMC and DOD documents and other websites.......

[Bonobo]

138. Sounds like you got smacked in the snout with a rolled up newspaper

and now you are gun-shy against do the right thing. I feel sorry that your entire world is reduced to the size of the USMC rule book and that, like a religious fanatic, you think it has all the answers to the world. Sad. It's good to feel needed, isn't it? You served your coutnry, right? Well... I know it might hurt, but... maybe it was bullshit, pal, and you got sucked into a cult that blinds its followers with rules, uniforms, slogans, songs, commercials, and cute little catch-phrases.

[Breeze54]

127. FUCKIN' A+ Cpl KoKesh !!! ~~ Eat the apple ~

LEAVE THE CORP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HO RAH!! :patriot:


:cry: <--Mom of a USMC IRR.........

I STAND BEHIND YOU, CPL KOKESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:hug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

136. Here are some pictures of Adam in KC yesterday

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1038896&mesg_id=1038896

[Ganja Ninja]

139. It doesn't seem to bother the Commander Guy when he stands ...

there selling his war in front of uniformed troops. If he can use the troops as political backdrops why shouldn't any soldier be able to wear his uniform to the political event of his/her choice?

[DS1]

142. I'm sure they're equally cracking down on former/current military who wear

their covers, or cammie tops during pro-war marches. Yep, I'm sure of it.

[lonestarnot]

145. They can kiss my ass!

[Karenina]

152. Errraaa...

NOT! :rofl:

[ComerPerro]

156. Nice double standard by the military there. But is anyone suprised? It offically works for the GOP