Gore Vidal: "US is not a democracy, nor was it ever intended to be"

[RedSock]

Gore Vidal, in the Toronto Star:

The United States is not a democracy, nor was it ever intended to be. This is where the schools have got it all wrong and where the media daily gets it wrong. ...

(R)ead the federalist papers. Any one of them looks like he's near apoplexy, he's about to have a stroke when he's talking about the people. They hate the people. They want the people out of government ... they wanted a republic based on Rome, secretly based on slavery and based on imperial progress elsewhere in the world.

So from the beginning, we've been imperial.

http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/223608

[yella_dawg]

1. .

[bigtree]

2. The government has acted as an imperial, but we've striven for democracy

with every modern instigation of our political system. I think we do have a democracy; not some perfect vehicle, but we have a process where we work to operate as one. Those modern instigations should take precedence over whatever shortcomings in vision or intent the founders may have had.

[RedSock]

5. the appearance of democracy

We have the appearance of democracy -- and that is enough for most people. At every point in US history, some group -- blacks, women, immigrants, etc. -- was getting sh*t on. It's been a constant striving towards equality, some eras better than others, but the US has never truly made it.

We don't have "one person, one vote" when it comes to choosing a president, which is seriously screwed up. Republicans in highly blue states or liberals in red states know their votes do not count.

[bigtree]

11. democracy is an ideal

we will always strive to shape it in the direction we want. I think the most important principle which has to be continually defended and nurtured to make our democracy function is the protection and enhancement of minority rights.

But, I really don't think we will ever be able to point to one static instance - even in an ideal situation where all the gears are clicking - and define that as a 'democracy' to be emulated for all time. In that our system reflects our collective will, I would say that our democracy has adhered pretty closely to that collective opinion over time. It is in the essential expression of the minority in America that I think we are most challenged by the often indifference and arrogance of the majority. It's difficult to navigate, but our political system is still, essentially, a democracy.

[xchrom]

3. there has to be an adequate, and intelligent

dissection of what we were and what we are now in order to move thoughtfully forward.

marxist history has not been disproved by our version ''capitalism'' -- and an intelligent discussion around this will hopefull take place before the west implodes on the overwhelming burden of globilization and neoliberalism.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

4. The United States is *NOT* a Republic Either

Just ask the hundreds of thousands of citizens who pay federal taxes without representation.

[ananda]

6. property owning corporatist state

nt

[many a good man]

7. It's very true

The Founders were mortally afraid of "mob rule" so they created a system to prevent the "tyranny of the majority" and protect minority rights. It was intended to protect property rights and has since evolved to be a great protector of civil rights.

The Constitution has created an extremely stable form of government, but at the cost of slowing much needed progressive reforms. Thus we are so far behind Canada, western Europe, and many other countries that it is pitiful. The people do not control government here, we are merely allowed "veto power" to throw out the bums every two or four years. It's just barely "acceptable" enough to avert revolution in the streets, but if progressive change proceeds too slowly, all bets are off.

[bigtree]

15. well, I think the Bush administration is a good demonstration

of what can happen to the country with a determinately partisan majority supported by an indifferent (perhaps ignorant) majority of voters.

The 'slowness' of our system is usually an arbitrary restraint on the will of the majority, but at least there are levers of resistance and opposition built into the political system, lest the majority (inside and outside the system) assumes rightness equates with the ability to rule.

Is a 'progressive' stance always a right one?

[ellisonz]

8. ...

:applause: :applause:

[Kokonoe]

9. The states are a republic.

We the people live in a democracy. Every state is it's own democracy. Thats the beauty of it all. No one person is supposed to be in charge of everything(unlike what bushitler thinks).

[Joe Chi Minh]

10. There's been a hilarious American woman called Janet Daley on BBC4

here, a short while ago.

She was forcefully telling the English character she was talking with, and the viewers, of course, that unlike the countries of Europe, America was a real democracy. And she even spelt it out!!!! It was government by the people for the people. Unlike Europe whose leaders ran rough-shod over the people's wishes (some truth even so, in terms of the European Parliament and creeping corporatism), but compared to the US and Bush's government by edict, ignoring the Executive all together - not to speak of the blatantly stolen elections, the hideous distortion of the democratic process by heavily-financed lobbying and partisan judicial chicanery, Europe has been a haven of honest elections and democratice government generally.

I saw her a few weeks ago, and could see that she was a neocon, living in a surreal fantasy world, but today was something special. But why the English lad lets her get away with it is a mystery. He seems to be shameless.

[Kurovski]

12. K&R. (nt)

[followthemoney]

13. We are convinced that we have a democracy...

In order that we do not attempt to achieve a democracy. Who could be motivated to make the effort and sacrifice to attain that or anything else we believe we already have? Who would answer the call to a movement that would grant tongues to all? Only those who believe they do not have tongues and believe that a movement could provide them.

The only democratically elected Federal body under the original constitution is the House of Representatives. The original constitution was designed to keep the dirty little hands of the common people out of the works of the government.

[Matsubara]

14. The great Vidal, spot on, as usual.

NT