No, you can't walk in the door unless you show us your passport!

[Missy Vixen]

This happened the night before last, and I'm still gobsmacked.

Friday night, my husband and a bunch of his Australian co-workers decided to visit a pool hall in Bellevue, WA for a few beers and some pool. My husband's 40+ year old boss and his girlfriend (well over the drinking age,) produced their Australian drivers' licenses as ID at the door. Bear in mind that they have been in many other bars and restaurants since their arrival in the USA, we've been with them, and there's never been a problem. This time, they were told they would have to retrieve their passports and show them before they'd be allowed entry to the establishment. They had to go home and get them, show them at the door, and then there was evidently some other problem. They joined our party almost an hour and a half after we got there. We had no idea what was going on, and were very concerned something was wrong when they didn't show in a timely manner.

Just carrying a passport if you're from another country in the US sounds like a major headache. There's also the thousands of dollars in fees for visas and the hassle of replacing a lost one. I can't figure out why the management of this particular establishment (The Parlor in Lincoln Center,) seems to believe they are singlehandedly thwarting the terrorists by policies that are draconian and just plain stupid. Here's the stupid part: Our party spent $450 in food, booze and pool table rental that evening. According to the boss, they're not going back.

What are your thoughts?
Julie

[liberal N proud]

1. Let me see your papers, your papers, I demand to see your papers

And they will say we are not becoming more like Nazi Germany.

[Missy Vixen]

4. I was just amazed

Evidently, those at the door were parroting the "it's Washington State law" BS, and we've lived here our whole lives. I wasn't aware that anyone presenting a valid picture ID, even from another country, would not be allowed entrance into any business here.

I'm looking forward to the place opening today. The owner's getting a phone call he won't forget for awhile. These guys like to take their staff out and have a little fun; they pay their tabs and they've spent some serious coin at other restaurants in the surrounding area. I'm telling the owner how much cash just walked out the door with his Australian passport.

Julie

[MindPilot]

11. I'd be curious the hear what they have to say

Was there any kind of signage other than "You Must BE 21 To Enter" or "ID Required" that would indicate that a valid driver's license might not be sufficient?

[Missy Vixen]

18. We didn't get the whole story till they got inside

DH and I were traveling from the other location to the pool hall while the issue was going on at the door. We were told later that they evidently accept Washington State drivers' licenses and military ID. The thing I could not get over is that we've been out with these people before. They like to go out, so they're out every weekend. We have never even seen either of them carded before (they're in their 40's!) let alone the issue over the ID.

There is nothing posted besides "you must be 21 to enter" and the requirement of picture ID, if I remember correctly.

I think the door staff is a little overzealous.

Julie

[dsc]

2. The only possible explanation that isn't bigotry

is that maybe this place has been targets of drinking age enforcement and decided to play it safe.

[babylonsister]

3. I wouldn't have stayed there, and I imagine this just might be illegal.

Maybe a LTTE is in order. Another reason why visiting the US might be a bad idea for people from other countries; you can never tell what kind of 'welcome' you'll get.
I'd also be in touch with the management of that place, telling them exactly why they won't be reaping the benefits of future parties.

[treestar]

13. Exactly, this kind of crap just hurts our economy

As if they would put up with that treatment if they went to Australia. Well, they're probably people too ignorant to even want to travel outside the U.S. They probably think they can't drink the water in other countries.

[petronius]

5. Some states have requirements about what documents can be used

to show proof of age - I've had situations where only an in-state ID was allowed. If the bar has gotten in trouble recently, they could be hyper-sensitive about the rules.

On the other hand, the bar staff could just be wankers...

[Missy Vixen]

10. We were in a restaurant down the street prior to moving

We've all been in that restaurant (Rock Bottom Brewery, not my fave, but they like it,) multiple times in the past two months. They've never had a moment's trouble.

I'm thinking the staff at this particular establishment are a bit overzealous. Wait till I name the dollar figure I think these guys have spent at the Rock Bottom since May. Let's face it, they tip well, they like to have fun, and it's too bad they just had an encounter with those who are clueless.

Julie

[treestar]

14. That rule would not hold consitutional muster if challenged

You can't refuse to deal with people because they are from another state. The states must give full credit to the acts of other states - recognizing their IDs would be required under that clause.

[petronius]

20. You're right - it wasn't 'in-state only' that I was thinking of

However, in CA at least, an acceptable 'proof of age' document must contain certain pieces of information such as a picture, DOB, physical decription, etc, and licenses from other states that don't contain all the required bits don't count.

I wonder if an Australian DL has all the factoids that WA state law requires...

[treestar]

23. The OP might know that, I bet it's likely

The passport surely would. I could see it if they said something about it, look pal, we're sorry, but we could get into trouble if we don't have such and such detail on the ID - then you'd know they were just being anal retentive about the rules and requirements and might even be justified if the person looked young.

[uppityperson]

49. Law posted in post #38, will repeat here

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=66.16.040
Sales of liquor by employees — Identification cards — Permit holders — Sales for cash — Exception.


Except as otherwise provided by law, an employee in a state liquor store or contract liquor store may sell liquor to any person of legal age to purchase alcoholic beverages and may also sell to holders of permits such liquor as may be purchased under such permits.

Where there may be a question of a person's right to purchase liquor by reason of age, such person shall be required to present any one of the following officially issued cards of identification which shows his/her correct age and bears his/her signature and photograph:

(1) Driver's license, instruction permit or identification card of any state or province of Canada, or "identicard" issued by the Washington state department of licensing pursuant to RCW 46.20.117.

(2) United States armed forces identification card issued to active duty, reserve, and retired personnel and the personnel's dependents, which may include an imbedded, digital signature in lieu of a visible signature.

(3) Passport.

(4) Merchant Marine identification card issued by the United States Coast Guard.

(5) Enrollment card issued by the governing authority of a federally recognized Indian tribe located in Washington, if the enrollment card incorporates security features comparable to those implemented by the department of licensing for Washington drivers' licenses. At least ninety days prior to implementation of an enrollment card under this subsection, the appropriate tribal authority shall give notice to the board. The board shall publish and communicate to licensees regarding the implementation of each new enrollment card.

The board may adopt such regulations as it deems proper covering the cards of identification listed in this section.

No liquor sold under this section shall be delivered until the purchaser has paid for the liquor in cash, except as allowed under RCW 66.16.041. The use of a personal credit card does not rely upon the credit of the state as prohibited by Article VIII, section 5 of the state Constitution.

[MindPilot]

16. But if these guys were Aussies...

They wouldn't have American passports, so there would be no difference between the Australian DL and the Australian Passport.

It looks like the guy at the door took it upon himself to play La Migra.

edit to make sense.

[Robbien]

6. You mention the boss is planning on not going back

which is all well and good, but it does nothing to change anything. Someone needs to call the place and let them know that they just lost future business because of their over zealous practices.

[MindPilot]

7. I think you should have moved your $450 party elsewhere

at that very moment.

And you might want to look into what laws the establishment might have violated. They are required to verify age; I don't think it extends to checking citizenship and they may have opened themselves up to some kind of civil rights violations.

Although any business can refuse service to anyone for almost any reason, I don't think no passport is one of those reasons.

[dogday]

8. Freakin Nazi Bar

The whole thing is absolutely ridiculous... The establishment of this place should be ashamed of themselves..... Checking I.D. on people who are obviously of the age to drink is ridiculous... This place reeks....

[Matariki]

9. I've seen that happen before. Some people don't recognize foreign licenses

and don't know if they're fake. But since your husband's boss was over 40 they were being assholes. I don't know if you've ever noticed, but there are some people in shitty jobs that LOVE to exert petty power when given the opportunity. Then again, did his girlfriend look young?

Personally I would have got everyone to head to another bar right away.

[treestar]

12. officious intermeddlers

of the type who think landlords should make sure people are legally here before they rent to them, etc. and they are shocked to find that this is a free country and only Immigration and Customs Enforcement has to enforce the laws. (Along with employers, who have to make an attempt to establish legal eligibility to work).

I'm just surprised they are at least so "fair" minded that they even apply this rule to Aussies, who are presumably of Euro extraction ultimately, and even speak English!

They probably think it is everyone's duty not to do business with illegal aliens!

Several local boards have tried passing laws making it illegal for a property owner to rent to someone without checking. In Pennsyvlania locals have tried to check people's legal status before marrying them (the clerk) but if one of the parties is a U.S. citizen they cannot possibly interfere with the U.S. citizen's right to marry, even to an illegal alien.

[deadmessengers]

15. It's the same abroad, actually.

I know that when I travel abroad, I am required to carry my passport with me at all times. I was even specifically told to do so by an immigration officer in the UK - "keep your passport with you at all times while you're here" (I found out later on that if you have a "virgin" passport - one with no stamps in it - they will tell you to do that as a courtesy).

In fact, a co-worker of mine was arrested in Japan for not having his passport (and gaijin card, essentially, his visa) on his person - he was released after one of his friends went back to his hotel and brought it to the police station.

I can also tell you this about what your friends experienced. I used to work security in clubs. Most bars would NOT accept driver's licenses from outside North America, because of the great difficulty in detecting forgeries. And, every place I worked had a ID reference book somewhere near the door, with full-color samples of the drivers' licenses of the 50 states (and the 12 Canadian provinces and territories). Foreign documents are not in that book, so they've no idea whatsoever if the document they're looking at is fake. Passports, on the other hand, are fairly uniform between countries, and difficult to forge, so they're generally accepted everywhere.

Now, why a couple of 40+ people would have had such a hard time at the door? Again, from personal experience working in bars: That bar could have been the target of local government harrassment recently, either because they were specifically targeted , or they may have heard that a broader sting operation was in progress. A lot of places will impose an "ID Everyone" policy after sting operations. It doesn't matter if you came in there with a white beard down to your knees, and on a walker, they're going to want to see ID. When bar management imposes an "ID Everyone" policy, they mean it - if the door guy lets someone in without ID, and the management finds out about it, that doorman will lose his job. No ands, ifs or buts, no arguments, end of discussion.

So, yeah, it's a pain in the ass, but it's not just a US thing, and it's got nothing to do with terrorism.

[MindPilot]

19. Is it really the doorman's job to check for forgeries?

If it's an obvious case of someone really young trying to get in I can see questioning it, but if there's someone who's of age what difference does it make if their ID is legit or not?

[deadmessengers]

24. It is, actually.

At least in New York (where I worked), the laws didn't provide an exemption for a bar owner that accepted a fake ID. If someone presented a forged ID, and the doorman accepted it, and the bartender served the minor, the bar was still on the hook, and the doorman and bartender still got a free ride in a squad car.

Asinine, yes. But those were the rules, and until the rules changed, we have no choice but to play by them or pay the price.

[treestar]

29. I'd work hard to change those, it's not fair

There probably is a provision for reasonableness, though. You shouldn't be held liable over a very slick forgery. A crude forgery is what should be recognized. These can be close cases, but at least if you accepted something that looks real and isn't an obvious fake there should be a case for getting out of it.

[Missy Vixen]

21. Let's put it this way

>A lot of places will impose an "ID Everyone" policy after sting operations.<

The boss and his girlfriend were there first. We walked in the door maybe 15-20 minutes after they got there. We weren't even asked for ID.

Julie

[deadmessengers]

28. then why were they ID'ed when you weren't?

That doesn't make sense at all.

[Missy Vixen]

35. That's my thought

They were so vigilant about carding, then suddenly there's none? Seriously. We weren't even stopped.

Either we look really, really old, or something else was going on.

Julie

[treestar]

26. But if you've got a white beard down to your knees are they really

in danger? This is an attitude of such overkill. It's almost like taking revenge on the public for having suffered the sting. Hey you want these rules, let's enforce them to death!

Everything has a point where you can use your judgment.

Plus if it were a forgery, the laws probably let them off. Though there's the trouble of going in on it. Still, what are the odds of being arrested over foreigners? If they think they are being possibly tested by an undercover cop walking around with an Aussie DL, just follow the guidelines for foreign IDs. Wouldn't that be covered in the state's rules?

[deadmessengers]

30. It's not taking revenge, it's "civil obedience"

If the guy with the white beard complains, you tell them "sorry, the city says we have to ID everyone. I apologize for the inconvenience." The idea is, piss enough people off with ID checks that they start screaming at the local government to cut the crap with the ID stings.

To give you a different example of the same phenomenon: A couple of years ago, a couple of guys decided to drive laps around the Atlanta Perimeter doing the precise speed limit. They were following the law to the letter, and drove people absolutely INSANE in the process. Traffic backed up for miles behind them. Now, was that taking revenge on the public? No. They were making a very powerful point about patent absurdity of the artificially-low speed limits set on that road.

[Hippo_Tron]

48. Agreed, we elect the people who make these stupid laws in the first place

We have to suffer the consequences.

[1monster]

17. Don't ever go back there, tell your friends and associates what happened

and suggest that they don't go back there and pass the word.

Also, all of you should write the pool hall and tell them why you are no longer patronizing their establishment.

Always vote, even if you suspect your vote is being stolen. And ALWAY VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET where ever possible.

Money talks louder than most anything else.

[Truthiness Inspector]

22. The bar was protecting its license

Yes, they will lose your business, but at least they will still have a business.

What if someone posted: "I was in Australia/Switzerland/Egypt/Japan and (insert business name) didn't accept my California/Ohio/Vermont driver's license, and they had the GALL to ask for my passport as acceptable ID!"

[Missy Vixen]

27. Based on what?

>Yes, they will lose your business, but at least they will still have a business.<

I stated that the over 40's who were hassled at the door had identification. As someone else posted upthread, if their picture ID's weren't sufficient, why would a passport be considered sufficient? It wasn't an American passport, so how would they know it was not a forgery? I also mentioned that DH and I strolled into the restaurant evidently only minutes after the boss and his girlfriend were turned away, and the door minders not only didn't even attempt to stop us, they didn't even ask for ID.

Julie

[Truthiness Inspector]

31. Passports are accepted around the world

That is just a fact. Driver's licenses are not.

I hate to suggest this, but maybe you and your husband looked older to the doorman, while the other couple looked young enough to wonder.

I think it's sad that you are smearing this business for protecting itself. Have you travelled much out of the U.S.? I have, and that's why I think raising a stink over someone asking for a passport as acceptable ID is unreasonable.

[Missy Vixen]

34. Yes, we have

>Have you travelled much out of the U.S.?<

Yes. And your point would be?

>I think it's sad that you are smearing this business for protecting itself.<

Protecting itself against what? Over 40's wanting to have a beer? Here's the point. This same couple has been to MULTIPLE restaurants and bars in the same area over the past few months. This is the first place that has required them to produce a passport simply to get inside. If a picture ID is not sufficient, perhaps this should be posted at their front door. My husband told me he's never been asked for a passport in order to buy a beer, and he's more widely travelled than I am.

Those at the door the other night were doing nothing more than throwing their weight around.

IMHO, YMMV,
Julie

[Truthiness Inspector]

37. Well

It seems your mind is made up. The nasty doorman was out to get your friends and chase away business by way of asking for a universally accepted form of ID.

You asked for input, so that's what I offered. I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. I'm sorry you and your friends had a bad night.

[uppityperson]

32. Bars/liquor places get checked regularly to make sure they card people right.

Presenting an out of country ID may not be enough because hey, anyone can print up anything, stick it in plastic and say it is something. They are protecting their license. We had a local establishment get closed for a week because they weren't checking enough people. A passport is pretty much a universally accepted ID, except places like here at home in the USA. I've given mine for ID and places wanted my drivers license again. Now as the USA is demanding people have passports to return they will be more common here too.

It has been funny to pull out my passport for ID and have clerk look at it in confusion.

[Hippo_Tron]

39. At a study abroad seminar at my school we're taught to NOT carry our passports around

We're told them to leave them wherever we're staying because they could get lost. Then again, the rest of the civilized world doesn't have draconian alcohol laws like some places in the United States do.

[WinkyDink]

25. As soon as it got to "they had to go home and...", I would have left with them, for good.

[Poll_Blind]

33. In a foreign country I always carry my passport in a moneybelt.

  Always. Even in Canada when it would seem unimportant. But travelling in another country has always been and always will be a big deal when it comes to proving who you are. This is not to say that I condone the treatment that your acquaintences received. Normally in a situation like that I'd get really persistent (not pushy) and insist on vouching for the persons involved, producing my identification and getting as many people there to do the same.

  Not pushy or angered but politley insistent. Constantly trying to cut some deal between what they want and what I want. It usually works.

  Sorry that happened btw.

PB

[Missy Vixen]

36. I wish we would have been there with them

>producing my identification and getting as many people there to do the same.<

I think that might have been a little fun. "Oh! We don't have a passport, but we're American citizens. Would a driver's license be sufficient? Honey, get your license out, okay? Man, it's been a long time since I've been carded, but God bless you. Thanks for the compliment!" LOL

One thing's for sure, it's the last time the group gets split up. We'll ALL go to the door together if we're going someplace new.

There's two ways of doing this kind of stuff. The easy way, which you cite. "Look, I'm sorry, it's the law, what can we do to make this easier?" and the hard way, which is "I'm going to obey the letter of the law, even though it's obvious the couple standing in front of me are both over 40."

One thing's for sure, I learned a lesson!
Julie

[Poll_Blind]

43. And also as you said it can turn it into a "fun" time AND...

...a chance to show the foreigners how much you care about them. Can you imagine how nice it would make them feel to see a table full of people waving ID's in the air, comparing pictures, laughing, etc. all just to vouch for them?

  If you run into a similar situation, give that a shot. It's a good way to turn an awkward situation into a strengthening event.

PB

[uppityperson]

38. Here is relevant law RCW 66.16.040, they followed the law

Took a bit of searching, but here is the relevant law. May have been annoying, but they did what they were supposed to.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=66.16.040

Sales of liquor by employees — Identification cards — Permit holders — Sales for cash — Exception.


Except as otherwise provided by law, an employee in a state liquor store or contract liquor store may sell liquor to any person of legal age to purchase alcoholic beverages and may also sell to holders of permits such liquor as may be purchased under such permits.

Where there may be a question of a person's right to purchase liquor by reason of age, such person shall be required to present any one of the following officially issued cards of identification which shows his/her correct age and bears his/her signature and photograph:

(1) Driver's license, instruction permit or identification card of any state or province of Canada, or "identicard" issued by the Washington state department of licensing pursuant to RCW 46.20.117.

(2) United States armed forces identification card issued to active duty, reserve, and retired personnel and the personnel's dependents, which may include an imbedded, digital signature in lieu of a visible signature.

(3) Passport.

(4) Merchant Marine identification card issued by the United States Coast Guard.

(5) Enrollment card issued by the governing authority of a federally recognized Indian tribe located in Washington, if the enrollment card incorporates security features comparable to those implemented by the department of licensing for Washington drivers' licenses. At least ninety days prior to implementation of an enrollment card under this subsection, the appropriate tribal authority shall give notice to the board. The board shall publish and communicate to licensees regarding the implementation of each new enrollment card.

The board may adopt such regulations as it deems proper covering the cards of identification listed in this section.

No liquor sold under this section shall be delivered until the purchaser has paid for the liquor in cash, except as allowed under RCW 66.16.041. The use of a personal credit card does not rely upon the credit of the state as prohibited by Article VIII, section 5 of the state Constitution.

[Poll_Blind]

44. Cool info- thanks for that! n/t

PB

[Missy Vixen]

51. Okay, so here's the question

>May have been annoying, but they did what they were supposed<

I want to thank uppityperson for posting the law. Obviously, the law provides that a passport is a valid method of identification, but here's my question. If this is so widely practiced, why is this the first business either one of us have heard of that does this? DH's current employers are Australian. He just left a British-owned company. We've been out for dinner and drinks in the state of Washington with executives of that company, and they're not American citizens, either. This is the FIRST TIME we have ever had any issue with someone being served a drink that is over 21 and not an American citizen.

Seriously. There was a good way and a bad way to handle this. They chose the "we don't care what you think" method. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. They will go on doing the same stuff, and we'll be taking our business elsewhere.

Julie

[uppityperson]

52. Why don't you call them up and ask them directly?

That seems the easiest and most direct thing to do. Ask why this happened, and let them know how you felt about it. Perhaps they got busted recently, perhaps the owners had just come down on them for something, maybe they were just being bigots and hate anyone without a USA drivers license.
Perhaps the bigger question is why didn't other places do this?

Call them, give them feedback, and ask why. I can't tell you, perhaps they can.


Edited to add my story. I lived in WA for yrs, moved to AK for a few yrs and came back to visit. I got picked up in the U district taking a left hand turn at a corner with lots of lights and signs and people and I did not see the "no left turn" sign. Cop picked me up a block away and copped an attitude immediately. "oh sure, you're from AK". Yes, I responded while apologizing for turning illegally, here's my license, my insurance, my registration, my license plate is AK, boxes of canned halibut in the back, etc etc etc. I decided to just shut up and let him do whatever because he was so sarcastic and nasty. I went to the courthouse the next day and asked to speak to someone since I was planning on leaving town in a couple days and wanted to explain and get my fine reduced. I got to talk with a nice magistrate who explained that Seattle police were prejudiced against people saying they were from AK since (at that time) it was so much cheaper to get car licensed in AK than WA that many WA people were holding AK PO boxes to pretend AK residency. She advised me to be very careful and drive as little as possible in the city and fined my $10 or so.

I would never have known this if I hadn't gone to ask wtf to someone superior to the bigoted cop.

Call, ask, give them feedback and please let us know what they had to say.

[Missy Vixen]

53. I called them just after 11 AM our time

>Call, ask, give them feedback and please let us know what they had to say.<

First of all, I am so sorry that you had such a bad experience with the cop. We know a lot of cops; it spoils it for everyone when one of them acts badly. I'm glad to know that you talked with an understanding magistrate.

I talked to the owner this morning. It wasn't a long conversation. I was polite and civil, but somehow, I don't think anything I had to say was important to him. There's probably 100 other options in the four-block radius of the establishment, so truly, maybe it's better to look at the glass half full and just go there in the future.

Julie

[uppityperson]

54. Good, I'm glad you called.

I don't have anything else to add. Just don't know and, well, it's raining over here in P.T. Annoying when this sort of stuff happens. Glad you called.

My story was from 1990, having cheap licensing fees in WA has helped alleviate some of the AK stuff. There are still some people maintaining AK PO boxes for AK permanent fund dividend, though they are watching more closely now also. It wa nice talking with the magistrate since the police officer's reaction was so far beyond what the situation seemed to call for.

[Hippo_Tron]

40. I think it's unfortunately due to the draconian alcohol laws in some places

In almost every other civilized country I can think of, the drinking age is 18 or 19 or even younger.

How our drinking age is enforced depends on where you are. Where I'm from (New Orleans), 21 means that most bars will let you in at 18 and if a 21 year old buys you a drink, nobody cares. In other states, the government goes out of its way to make sure that nobody under 21 consumes a drop of alcohol or is anywhere near a drop of alcohol.

[uppityperson]

42. Don't you have drive through Margaritas or something?

alcoholic slushies at a drive through place? Different states have different laws and regulations. I remember back when you could drink different things at different places at different ages. 3.2 beer was legal in SD if you were 18 or 19. Had to drink a lot, then drive back over the border. The day an older sibling turned 21 the next door state dropped the legal age to 19, meaning I could drink the same day sib could, legally.

[Hippo_Tron]

45. Drive through daiquiris to be specific

[uppityperson]

47. That's it. I couldn't remember the drink Drive through Daquiris.

Someday I want to check that out.

[annabanana]

41. Oh my.. It seems they have a "guest book"

http://www.parlorbilliards.com/guestbook.aspx

It's good to know that any sophisticated, international, well to do clientele is being warned not to go there.

[BlooInBloo]

46. Why they went back there is beyond me. Gotta love my hometown - lol!

[avrdream]

50. It isn't just bars - maybe it is something about Aussie licenses.

I went home to California from Australia this past January. My mate, Mark, went with me. We went to a gas station to fill up but were required to pay money first and go back into the store for the refund if we didn't use the whole amount up.
There was a little over $3.00 extra so Mark went into the station to get the refund. Strangely, they asked him for ID just to get the refund back. He showed his Australian driver's license. They gave him all sorts of grief and said he should be carrying his passport for identification. After several minutes, they gave him the money, again reminding him that his DL was useless as identification.
Fine and dandy, but this was to get OUR OWN MONEY BACK!

Makes no sense to me - he wasn't trying to buy cigarettes, nudie magazines, or alcohol.