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Great bumper sticker: I went to the Creation Museum and all I got was stupider.

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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 10:48 AM
Original message
Great bumper sticker: I went to the Creation Museum and all I got was stupider.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. This is just another example of how terribly
persecuted christians are in this country. dobson will crank up his american family radio network to equate the bumper sticker with christians being rounded up and slaughtered in other countries. It really is terrible when someone shows the truth about a groups' "beliefs." How can they stand living in this horrid anti christian country? I think they would be better off if they left. I'll hold the border open for them.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. No, this is an example of how people do not

understand evolution. It is a problem with our educational system as much as with the Christians who "don't believe in" evolution. In general, those Christians are less well-educated than those of us who have no problem accepting evolutionary theory and believing in God. People who haven't been properly taught something are not stupid, just in need of more education.

Christians are persecuted here at DU and in some parts of the country. We're not being slaughtered here as in Darfur and parts of the Middle East, we're just being characterized as stupid and intolerant. There's a difference between stupidity and ignorance, you know. Stupidity is an inability (or, one might argue, a refusal) to learn, while ignorance is just the state of not having learned something. All of us are ignorant about some things.

Some of us refuse to learn about certain things. People repeat incorrect information about Catholic beliefs here all the time, which is something they have in common with the Klan. Most people don't know that the Klan has always been as much anti-Catholic as anti-black. At some times and places, it was more anti-Catholic than anything else. Repeating false info about Catholicism is not morally better than repeating false info about evolution.

Christianity is also being marginalized in a majority Christian country. Bush lights a White House menorah for Chanukah, but public Nativity scenes are forbidden and the White House Christmas tree is now called the White House "holiday tree." Stores have taken up the "Happy Holidays" theme when they could just as easily say "Merry Christmas," "Happy Chanukah," Blessed Winter Solstice," "Happy Kwanzaa," etc.

In Atlanta, Muslim children are allowed out of class to pray but Christian children aren't. If Muslims have the right to pray in school, why don't Christians or Jews or anyone else? Jewish people seem to always get the High Holy Days out of school or off from work while most Christians have to work on Good Friday and Catholics have to work on all our Holy Days of Obligation.

Christians are not imagining that we are being persecuted in small ways, that secularism is chipping away at us, marginalizing us. Why can't secularism and religion coexist?

A lot of Christians accept Darwinian theory and would like to have science taught more effectively in the public schools. It embarrasses us that so many Americans support creationism. I taught middle grades science, high school biology, and college biology so I know quite a lot about the problems at all levels. People who want better education should work together, instead of secularists sniping at theists. We are not the theists who want a theocracy but a lot of people at DU seem to want us all to leave the Party or stay and take all the insults. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face!

So, you want us to leave or not? You want to lose the priests and nuns and laypeople who go to prison for nonviolent civil disobedience at the School of the Americas and other torture schools, nuclear weapons bases, etc.? You want to lose the Christians who run the soup kitchens and Meals on Wheels for the elderly and free hospices for the dying? You'd give all of us up because you dislike James Dobson?
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Christians are neither persecuted or marginalized in this country
Christians in this country do not know what persecution is however they are told week after week year after year that they are. And what, pray tell, would be the solution to ease the incredible burden of christians in America? Destroy the constitution and make a form of christianity the national religion? And what "christian" form would that be? Secularism and christianity are having an incredibly hard time coexisting because of those loud, vocal, borish christians who want to shove their religion down the throats of every citizen of the land of the free. And those christians want to use the constitution as a weapon against citizens they hate in the name of Jesus Christ. One might suggest they are the one's doing the marginalizing. The constitution is a shield for all of us, not a weapon to be used by religious zealots to advance their "beliefs." For them to leave is a solution I am promoting but they won't because they so covet their constitutional liberties while despising that same document because it dares assist all citizens.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Do you have a source for the Muslim children statement? Sounds suspiciously like an urban legend.
Also much of your "Happy Holidays" paragraph is standard Bill O' Reilly "War on Christmas" blather with little basis in actual fact. In fact, most stores do not tell their clerks how to greet customers during the Christmas season and there is no official protocol for how to refer to the White House Christmas tree.
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asthmaticeog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. SHUSH! That's PERSECUTION!
:spank:
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ceile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Bill, is that you?
Trolling again are we?
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. "Christians are persecuted in this country"...
Oh please.... :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Where, exactly are these "persecuted Christians" exactly? I'd love to meet one...you know, right after you show me the little green men from mars....
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Holy Days of Obligation (Roman Catholic) vs. High Holy Days (Jewish)
Hmm. Might the discrepancy of observance have something to do with the fact that there are TEN Holy Days of Obligation (excluding Sunday only days such as Easter) (the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension, the Body and Blood of Christ, Holy Mary the Mother of God, her Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, Saint Joseph, Saint Peter and Saint Paul the Apostles, and All Saints) while there are TWO High Holy Days (Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur)? And two of those Holy Days of Obligation DO get celebrated widely, Christmas (Nativity) and New Year's Day (Mary). So it would seem that Jews and Catholics get about the same amount of time off for Holy Days, no?
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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Unfortunately the very essence of reality and rationalism marginalized all religious people.
Of any faith, any where, the coming of the age of rationalism has continually chipped away at mythological world views of all stripes.

Christians are not imagining that they are facing marginalization. What they are imagining is that someone is "doing it to them." What is doing it is that reality and evolution is moving us ever onward--somewhere the mythological imperialism of Christianity will be effectively dead (as will likely be the purely rational paradigm because there is very likely something beyond that as well).

I think rationalists are either not fully aware, or don't want to know, or are disingenuous, when they say that Christians are not under attack. The entire world that Christians know is under attack. Christians ruled the world without question up to the time of the enlightenment. After the advent of the rational and scientific method their domain has been ever shrinking (as it has for all mythologies).

Everyplace, everywhere, from slavery, to inequality of opportunity for the sexes, to sexual freedom for women (through birth control), to any social issue (the next one probably being gay rights) Christians have taken a stand to KEEP THE WORLD THE WAY IT WAS (i.e., THEIR way) and they have ultimately lost. They know they are losing.

To ignore this conflict is idiotic: we DO threaten their world, and they threaten ours.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. After all the spot-on replies to this, all that's left for me to say, DBDB, is...
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. Persecuted.
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. .
You'd give all of us up because you dislike James Dobson?

No, just you.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. The only correct objection in your post is that not all Christians believe the crap the Creation
Edited on Tue Jun-12-07 10:01 PM by impeachdubya
Museum tries to peddle.

But beyond that, sorry. "Christians are persecuted in the U.S."? "Christians are persecuted here at DU"? "Christian kids aren't allowed to pray in school"? (News flash: Get real. Someone as obstensibly well-informed as yourself surely knows that ALL kids are allowed to pray in school. What is not permitted is organized, led, or otherwise school-endorsed prayer.)

And "Secularism is chipping away at us"? Give me a break. How, precisely, is secularism chipping away at anyone- when you can't hardly visit a newsstand any given week without seeing several Time or Newsweek or other M$M articles pandering to, or gushing about, the supposedly "all powerful values voter"? When it is taken as a given that EVERY single potential Presidential candidate -particularly the Democrats, these days- has to genuflect somehow at the altar of the religious, professing a deeply held faith and a deep lifelong affiliation and familiarity with what is invariably some strain of Christianity? How can "secularism" be chipping away at allegedly "persecuted" Christianity when EVERY poll taken on the subject says that African Americans, women, gays, lesbians, even axe murderers could be elected president before an admitted Atheist?

"Why can't secularism and religion co-exist"? I don't know. Maybe it has something to do with the religious trying to pass laws -like criminalizing abortion and birth control, for one- based upon their personal beliefs, that affect ALL of us.

You say "People repeat incorrect information about Catholic beliefs here all the time". Really. Got an example to back that up? Incorrect information like, the Catholic Church is against birth control?

And speaking of not only birth control but propogating blatant falsehoods on DU, weren't you the one who just yesterday said something about how "Planned Parenthood isn't interested in helping women prevent unwanted pregnancies"?

Ah, here it is:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1087803&mesg_id=1089775

As I said in that thread, that is an out-and-out bald faced LIE: preventing unplanned pregnancies is one of the primary functions of Planned Parenthood. I asked you who, among the "pro-life" crowd, you consider to be out there helping women avoid unplanned pregnancies, and if they're doing it with contraceptives or if they're doing it by lecturing women to keep their legs crossed. I realize that's a different thread, but you are the one listing grievances about how "some folks spread blatant misinformation on DU". If the statement "Planned Parenthood (doesn't)... make it a high priority to help women avoid unintended pregnancies." isn't a piece of blatant misinformation, uh, I don't know what is.


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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
25. Rather than, say...
> Bush lights a White House menorah for Chanukah, but public
> Nativity scenes are forbidden and the White House Christmas
> tree is now called the White House "holiday tree."

Rather than, say, a "Solstice Tree", or a "Saturnalia Tree",
or a "Yule Tree" (any of which would, after all, be much more
honest and historically-correct than "Christmas Tree"). As it
is, "Holiday Tree" is much closer to the truth of the multiple
holidays celebrated than would be to call it a "Christmas Tree".

Tesha


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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
26. As I'm sure you know, public nativity scenes are not banned.
> Christianity is also being marginalized in a majority
> Christian country. Bush lights a White House menorah
> for Chanukah, but public Nativity scenes are forbidden...

As I'm sure you know, public nativity scenes are *NOT*
banned. However, it has been determined that Christians
don't have an exclusive right to the town commons just
because it's December, so nativity scenes are now "forced"
to share space with all those other religions and it
happens that Chanukah and Kwanzaa happen to be celebrated
at the same time as the Christian's Christmas. But that's
how it goes in a country that, even though it may be
"majority Christian", at least claims to preserve minority
rights and disallow the tyranny of the majority.

Tesha
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
27. "Christians are persecuted here at DU"
I read your post with great interest. One thing that stands out to me is "Christianity is also being marginalized in a majority Christian country."

It is this "majority rule" mentality that frightens us about many Christians. It is those who say "this is a Christian country" that scares the crap out of us. They do NOT want secularism to coexist with religion. And when you start bringing up the fact that you are the "majority" - - and yet complain about a store having a "Happy Holiday" theme . . . well, sorry, but it does seem rather small-minded.
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Zuiderelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. Persecution, the Klan, forbidden nativity scenes, "Happy Kwanzaa", Muslim children praying
What did I stumble into here? "Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face!" Right. But the nose is yours. Cry persecution all you want, but it will never ring true. Look at how all the presidential candidates have to claim to espouse Christianity in order to be accepted by our populace. Count how many atheists there are in Congress.

Soup kitchens and civil disobedience and Meals on Wheels and free hospices are not the sole territory of Christians. It's insulting for you to insinuate that.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. Guess you still need that sarcasm tag...
D'OH!
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. Wonderful!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. how 'bout
support the Creation Museum
Help it to evolve... ;)
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. A car with that on it'll get keyed within hours
Within a month, somebody'll go apeshit on it with a ball-peen hammer or a rock.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Americans loves them some idiocy.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
5. I like it!
:thumbsup:
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nosillies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
6. Sold.
I'll put it on my car right next to my bumper sticker from the church I attend. That'll really piss some people off.
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zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. a better ending would be have the ending say
Edited on Tue Jun-12-07 01:35 PM by zonmoy
all I got was to lick the boots of their evil lying tyrant god.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. It seems obvious to me that there is design in nature--maybe even "intelligent"
Edited on Tue Jun-12-07 02:34 PM by Peace Patriot
design. Why would Nature create our brains in such a way that they look for design, and long for design, and, throughout human history, have imagined A DESIGNER (in various guises), if there were no "intelligent design" in Nature's productions?

It reminds me of the several science fiction stories--on TV and in print--where a human-created, artificial being, such as Data in Star Trek (often mistaken for a robot, by people who don't know him), or the hologram Doctor in Star Trek Voyager (who develops consciousness), and how these clearly sentient beings are subjected to legal trials, which attempt to determine their rights. Their rights as real people are seriously questioned. The judge in the Data case (an episode called "The Measure of a Man") at one point calls Data nothing more than a "toaster." These always interesting stories, which try to define just what a "human being" is, however, always fail to heed the most obvious fact: If a "thing" claims to have intelligence, or claims to have a soul, then it does. End of argument.

If your lawn mower suddenly started talking to you, and claiming to be sentient, and demanded that its rights now be respected, you would be obliged--if you can be sure that you are not crazy (or that someone is not tricking you)--to RESPECT THOSE RIGHTS, and to regard that "thing" as a being equal in value to yourself.

Similarly, when we USE OUR INTELLIGENCE, to observe and think about Nature (which CREATED our intelligence), we miss the OBVIOUS--that our pattern recognition, our ability to analyze, our ability to objectify, our ability to create mathematical models, our ability to think of the far future, our ability to create instruments that reach out to the farthest corners of the cosmos, our complicated languages, our packed libraries of information, and both our Platonic (abstract) and Aristotelian (evidence-based) inclinations, and all the works of the human mind, IMPLY a Design in Nature, if not a Designer.

We are ever looking for First Causes: WHAT moves or animates this thing we are observing? We're now down to the levels of subatomic particles and DNA, and principles of electro-magnetism. It is our abiding desire. WHAT moves things?

It is therefore--for lack of a better word--NATURE's desire as well. And that implies that "Nature" has a desire TO KNOW. And if Nature has a desire to know--as evidenced by OUR desire to know--then WHAT is it KNOWING? It is knowing ITSELF. Is that not God?

It could be that development of human intelligence is an ARTIFACT of other evolutionary survival mechanisms, and is not telling us the truth about the Universe: that it is organized, in a physical sense, and that it is aiming at intelligence--and maybe at the highest form of intelligence (the ability to appreciate the beauty of Nature, and just to BE). There are many seering accounts of human beings who "lose faith" and feel themselves to be stranded and helpless in the face of the utter indifference of the Great Universe. (Try Camus' "The Stranger.") My suspicion is that those accounts are based on alienation from community, not from God or the Universe--or are the result trauma (seeing too much death) whereby the alienated one projects the evil that human beings have committed onto all of Creation, and cannot get around his or her injured myopia (the syndrome of the suicide). Suddenly all things seems revoltingly alien. (Sartre's "Nausea.") (Both works are products of the catastrophic violence of world war, and also of leftist disillusionment with the violence of Stalinism, leaving no viable alternative to western materialistic greed.)

But whether belief in God, or in gods, is the grandest of all human delusions, or some kind of echo of the future in which we BECOME God, or the Gods (due to our fast-growing ability to behave like Gods, to gain the powers of Gods)--that is, Nature creating God, through us--or whether complete "realism" and objectivism is the truth (you get what you see--this life, this material reality--nothing more), or whether the truth lay somewhere in between and we do not yet understand it (for instance, that humans together, in that resonance we feel in large, like-minded crowds of people--at a musical concert, or a football game, or at a political protest--do, in fact, have a communal power that is greater than its parts, and that has been called spiritual or telepathic, but is in fact manifestation of a power that some people call "God" and that can "move mountains," so to speak)--however we consider these matters, we cannot deny our own desire for order, for pattern and for causes. It is characteristic of us. And that is what leads people to posit a God, or Gods.

The horror of this entirely political fight over the science of evolution is that it polarizes opinion into two stupid and stubborn camps, who despise each other, and cannot see the limits--and, indeed, the idiocy--of their own dispute. This dispute was almost entirely instigated by rightwing political forces and the idiocy of the dispute is almost entirely their fault. But they have succeeded, unfortunately, is driving the other side toward a rigid position. Why on earth NOT have a discussion in science class of the issue of DESIGN in Nature? Why are there intricately designed bird's wings and spider's webs, in all the great chaos of the whirling galaxies and exploding suns? Why do we humans SEE patterns and design, and therefore think of A DESIGNER? IS this a religious or a scientific question? Can the two be separated? Are we IMPOSING design where there is none--and thus misinterpreting data--or is design an inherent property of Nature? And, if it is inherent, WHY is that so?

There are so many important questions that cross the line between these two subjects: religion and science. Why stifle thought and creativity--and possibly earth-shaking discoveries--by rigidly separating the two?

The scientists and the rationalists and their many advocates would reply: To protect the First Amendment (that great product of the 18th Century Enlightenment, and prohibiter of religious wars in America)! It's a nearly unassailable argument. Most of us feel it strongly--fear of inquisitions, fear of witchburnings, fear of religious dictatorship. The scientists would specifically reply: To protect the integrity of science--which has been so smashed by religious fanatics in the past. We cannot deny that history. It is compelling. Protect the integrity of objective inquiry. Protect the freedom of the human mind.

BUT, in making these arguments, the great majority miss the obvious (and are pushed into this corner by the rightwing minority): That objective, scientific inquiry may itself be an aberration, that excludes too wide a swath of the human brain, which hungers for more complete meaning, and operates very differently from the rules of rationalism: intuitively making patterns, and intuitively leaping over logic, at hunches and guestimates, and is moved by compassion, by poetry, by meditative insights, by telepathy (connectedness with others), and is neither mechanistic nor utilitarian.

Consider the young student who balks at dissecting a live frog in biology class. Who is the better scientist--the young student who SENSES the wrongness of torturing and killing another living thing, or the cold-hearted teacher who insists upon it, and perhaps says, "The frog doesn't feel anything" (a lie) in order to extract obedience? Or, who promotes the notion that, whether or not the frog feels anything, we must NOT identify with it; we must be OBJECTIVE? (Another lie--or rather, an unscientific bit of dogma.)

The student feels compassion. Science says: Don't feel compassion. Or, ignore your compassion--it is NOT SCIENTIFIC.

In the bigger picture of our science-based society and economy, identification with other living things--that intuitive sense of compassion, and also of beauty--may well be MORE scientific than science generally maintains. It can tell you, for instance, that spraying an entire field of birds, insects, worms and living plants, with pesticides, in order to get rid of one pest, is WRONG. It's the wrong approach. You might FEEL it--say, in seeing a bird on the ground, struggling from poisoned eyes and poison-drenched feathers--and that may lead you to seeing this field in a wholistic way, in which BETTER science, more detailed knowledge, cleverer insights, and more humane methods of pest control can be applied, to the benefit of all agriculture and the survival of our planet and its biosphere.

The FEELING of horror at torturing a frog for science--excluded from, and disallowed by, the ABERRANT science of the corporations (the dominant model, currently)--IS a scientific insight. The FEELING that there is a Great Designer of all that we observe in Nature may also be a scientific insight--or, at the least, a very interesting line of inquiry that could lead to great discoveries about the human mind, as observer, and about our relationship with Nature including our scientific investigations.

The Creationism museum is, from all reports, an abomination. But do we want to continue with its antithesis--a science that creates nuclear weapons and cluster bombs and vast seas of poisons and powermongering, anti-democratic corporations, and that EXCLUDES every "spiritual" caution and insight as UN-scientific?

These two sides of our brains need to come together, it seems to me--and may desperately need to come together to save our planet, and all life on earth, and to achieve our full potential as human beings.

Don't let the rightwing minority dictate the terms of debate! Absorb their insight--the insight of the sincere (not the politicians and powermongers)--that many human beings are suffering alienation in the Corporate State, and are manifesting it in sometimes weird and objectional ways--and they need and desire a bigger dimension in human life. And are the rest of us satisfied with the life that science has brought us? Is that science adequate? Was modern science's understandable break from religious domination--and its particular specific break from the "mother" sciences (alchemy, astrology, herbology, midwifery) perhaps an over-reaction? It was to understand the connection between people and "the stars" that astronomy began, as astrology. That RELIGIOUS inquiry gave birth to astronomy (scientific observation). But what of that initial desire--to be connected? Is it not still with us, still part of us, and still relevant to why we care about science?



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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Even the briefest of glances of history shows that it was *religion* that forced the schism...
... But then, that's not the sort of thing that the religiously-inclined would be expected to know.

From at least Copernicus onward, religion has been vehemently and steadfastly anti-knowledge.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-12-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yeah, that is what the "briefest glances of history" will give you--such an
extreme and inaccurate viewpoint. Your use of this word, "religion," invalidates your statement. It is much too broad and vague. The Protestants, for instance, introduced the Bible and literacy to the common people. Was that "anti-knowledge"? On the contrary, it was revolutionary as to the spread of knowledge. Christians and Islamics preserved, translated and disseminated ancient Greek and Roman texts on mathematics, biology, medicine and other subjects. Were the religiously devoted people who did these things "anti-knowledge"? Charles II (head of the church of England, and probably a secret Catholic) founded the Royal Science Society--one of the great bulwarks of scientific investigation, to this day. Was this High Church/Catholic monarch "anti-knowledge"? And the Catholic Church itself created monasteries and libraries where books were preserved and copied, and where herbal medicine was practiced and preserved, and created magnificent cathedrals which could not have been built without tremendous engineering knowledge and skills, and patronized people like da Vinci who engaged in many scientific investigations. And these are just a few examples. Your phrase "anti-knowledge" is also too broad and too vague. This is not to excuse the general attitude of the Roman Catholic Church toward the freedom of the human mind--a powermongering, fascistic attitude, of which there are many horrible examples. But to say that "religion" has been "vehemently and steadfastly anti-knowledge" is not true.

It's much more of a mixed bag than that. In most of Europe, for about 1,500 years, virtually all of the knowledge, skills, experiments, and literary preservations and developments, that led to the Renaissance, and then to the Enlightenment, were conducted under the auspices of the Roman Catholic Church, by Roman Catholics, and often by clergymen. The Church's fostering of literate clerics--and its development of universities and monasteries--was critically important to these later explosions of learning and unfettered thought.

Your statement also fails to account for the tendency of EVERY entrenched power group--the Catholic Church, or the Democratic Party leadership--to control what people know. Does the Democratic Party leadership want you to know that rightwing Bushite corporations are now "counting" all our votes with "trade secret," proprietary programming code, in all the shiny new, and extremely insider hackable electronic voting systems, and that the Democratic Party leadership supported this very, very undemocratic coup, and support it to this day? It is characteristic of entrenched groups to control knowledge, to narrow it and to use that control to maintain their power, privileges and wealth. This phenomenon is not confined to "religion" or to religious institutions.

As to who broke with whom: You might say that the Democratic Party leadership broke with the rest of us--and indeed became traitors to democracy--in supporting "trade secret" vote counting by rightwing Bushite corporations, or you could say that the grass roots activists who are onto this (and got onto it against the obstructionism of the party leaders), and who have created an election reform movement to change it, have broken from the Democratic Party leadership. It doesn't make much sense to attribute the break either way. It is mutually hostile situation. The people want to know something, and the leaders do not want them to know it or spread that knowledge around. Who broke with whom?

Or, another analogy, did the Bourbons break with the French people, or did the French people break from the Bourbons? The Bourbons broke the peoples' backs with profligate spending and oppression, and the people rebelled. Who broke with whom?

It's ridiculous to say that the writers and scientists of the Enlightenment didn't break with the Catholic Church. They did! It was preceded by more than a thousand years of Catholic Church efforts to control knowledge and to use it for their own purposes--a powermongering impulse that simultaneously preserved, created and spread knowledge--and by many serious abuses of power (for instance, in the case of Galileo, and the Inquisitions) that led to the break, first via Protestantism (the idea of individual conscience), and then, through the spread of Greek and Roman texts, and a new Humanistic view of human life, and finally through an enormous change in scientific circles, that reached its peak in the Age of Reason, which was characterized by a refusal to believe anything that was not apparent in the material world and in human experience.

By the break with religious thought, this is what I mean. It was a definitive break. And it was as much a product of the Church's persecutions of scientists and other thinkers as it was a break, on the part of those scientists and thinkers, from all religious and spiritual influence over science. As I said, it was an understandable break. It pretty much had to occur--but, as with all revolutions, revulsion at the past does not necessarily create wisdom in the future. We've certainly seen this in the political arena--the French Revolution turning into slaughters at the guillotine and then into Napoleonic imperialism, and the Russian Revolution turning into Stalinism, and our own Revolution turning into Corporate Rule. What I'm saying is that that trend may also be applicable to the history of science, resulting in an overly cramped and restricted notion of what science is, and thus, of how the Universe works.

Your kneejerk reaction--that "religion" is ALWAYS hostile to knowledge--is a perfect example of what I mean--the rigid attachment to the rational, "scientific" view (an understandable REACTION to religious oppression) blinding you to what may be larger and more mysterious human capabilities, which may be equally real but a lot harder to pin down with current scientific methods. And your kneejerk reaction flies in the face of the facts. The religious impulse--the desire to understand the world and our place in it--INSPIRED scientific inquiry to begin with! Astrology (desire for--or recognition of--our connection to "the stars"--moon, sun, planets and distant bodies) was the MOTHER of astronomy (scientific observation of the stars). And it contained a seed of the true state of things that scientists have only recently begun to realize: that we are made of the same stuff as the stars are made of, that biological life may have been carried here and planted here by bits of stars and planets from great explosions elsewhere, that we are directly affected not only by nearby bodies (sun, moon) but also by distant exploding stars, and vast energy fields, and that we and the Universe are ONE PROCESS.

This insight of the early astrologers, shamans, Druids and other KNOWLEDGEABLE humans (the most knowledgeable humans) was BOTH a religious perception (desire for connection, desire to understand the Gods), and a scientific one.

Why do we have this desire? Why did Nature develop us in this way--as creatures who want to be connected to "the stars," and who thus spend millennia, and vast resources, on trying to understand what we are looking at, and who we are? Is it an accident of evolution? Is something else? Perhaps it is the clue to conscious evolution, or to space travel, or, simply, to wisdom-- how to use the awesome powers over Nature that our scientific minds are developing at such a fast pace, without blowing ourselves to kingdom come, or wiping ourselves out with some genetically modified plague, or irrevocably trashing our planet when we don't yet have another one to migrate to? Where is wisdom? --is what I'm asking. Where does that OTHER part of our brains come into it?

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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. "Design" implies a Designer.
No way around that.

I don't think intelligence requires design, any more than does the survival of an antibiotic by a few bacteria. Intelligence has survival value, and we are by definition the offspring of survivors.
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-13-07 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
30. That's really funny. I saw a bumpersticker yesterday that I couldn't figure out.
It said "Forget the Conventions, Remember the Commandments."

What the hell does that mean? Ignore the Geneva Conventions and punish those "evil-doers" that kill? Ignore the Geneva Conventions and torture people, just don't kill anybody (like Gonzo said) because that's against the Ten Commandments?

Or should I give them the benefit of the doubt, that they feel if one "forgets" the Geneva Conventions, they should remember the Ten Commandments to protect others?

Damn fundies. They're impossible to understand. Maybe if I deprived my brain of oxygen...
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