Is it accurate to talk about the "victims of communism?"

[BurtWorm]

Bush is dedicating a cheesy-looking memorial to the so-called victims of communism near Union Station in DC today. Of course it's sponsored by the most impacted constipervatives in the nation.

There is no doubt that millions of persons suffered and were killed under so-called communist regimes in the last century. Right now, I'm reading an amazing (and depressing) book, The Vavilov Affair by Mark Popovsky, about botanist Nikolai Vavilov who was persecuted and eventually murdered by the Stalinists, including his nemesis Trofim Denisovich Lysenko. But is it accurate to say that Vavilov was a victim of *communism?* Personally, I don't think so. He was a victim of Stalinism for certain. But his tragedy was a kind of Soviet version of Galileo's, in which he was punished for seeing reality too clearly and having too little faith.

And what of the millions who perished because of the insane hubris of Mao during the Great Famine,(which, not coincidentally, was a result of policies inspired by nut Lysenko)--were they victims of communism? In both of these cases, I would say we're talking about the victims of superstition and magical thinking, of arrogant dictatorship and group think, of abuse of power and docility of the people. But these actual causes of suffering and death under communist regimes could and have been transposed to any kind of regime in human imagination and caused as much pain and death.

Not to say communism is blame-free. I just think it hasn't actually ever been tried. What wingnuts villify as communism is something else entirely.

[LoZoccolo]

1. If it's never been tried, that means all the past communist regimes have been only kidding.

It also means we don't know how many more times they'll be only kidding.

[BurtWorm]

2. Those regimes, though nominally communist, were conceived of as being

mere steps on the road to real communism, in which there is theoretically no need for a state. There was certainly a need for a state in Leninism, Stalinism and Maoism. Marx would probably not have approved of the form they took.

[lostinacause]

23. I don't think we will ever see a communist regime, at least in the way that

Marx suggested. The system leaves a power gap that someone is just bound to try to fill. There are strong private incentives to acquire this power. The only way that this could happen is if people were entirely selfless. It seems that if people were entirely selfless every social economic system would be effective.

[MethuenProgressive]

3. Stalinist and Maoist interpretations of Marxism weren't Communist States

I think Bush et al are just whimpering fraidy-cats afraid to call out Stalin and Mao by name.

[Quantess]

4. It is far more salient to talk about "the victims of Bush".

In a way, we are all victims of the Bush government, from my perspective. The 'dangers of Communism' is old news and is far less relevant than the 'dangers of the Bush Administration'.

[stirlingsliver]

6. Exactly Right!

I, for one, would be happy to help in the construction of a Monument to the Victims of The Bush Family.

[Downtown Hound]

5. I read a book about Nixon's visit to China

And Mao specifically told him that he didn't like the Democratic Party in the U.S. and that he liked it when rightists came to power.

Doesn't sound like much of a leftist to me.

[unpossibles]

7. it's all part of our Pro-Capitalist McCarthyist cold war BS

Look, honestly I am a capitalist who has no problems with certain socialist programs, but I think it's sad how normally rational people still get all assed-up in an anti-communist rage yet are blind to the Victims of Capitalism, such as the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and Americans in the Middle East right now. Or even better the Victims of Colonialism who lived in the Americas and other places before we stole it from them?

Hell, how many times has America thwarted democracy in the name of anti-Communism? How many people die of starvation and violent greed here and in other capitalist societies? Many of the bad anti-Communist policies from the 40's-60's are still affecting us today in the Middle East, Africa, and South America

A more accurate name for that memorial would be "Victims of Human Nature" but you won't hear that.

I am not apologizing for Communism or dictatorships, but I am sick of the cheerleading bullshit of people who cannot honestly look at our history and see the good and bad and to try to not only take responsibility for our actions, but to try to learn from them so we don't keep doing the same stupid shit over and over.

</rant>

[BurtWorm]

8. Well said.

:applause:

[moondust]

14. U.S. slavery.

Hundreds of years of "Victims of Capitalism."


Good post.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

19. Ooopsie. I didn't read the thread before posting. We're aligned in reason.

It seems to me that, there are MOST LIKELY more Victims of Capitalism than any other governmental financial theory.

You have said it all and I have no more to add.

[Joe Chi Minh]

9. No. Not if you beleive Christs' words concerning the Last Judgment,

and his teaching concerning the contemptible nature of money when hoarded by individuals to the detriment of the poor. For that matter, "contemptible", period. He refers to its seductively meretricious nature in his parable of the farmer who built another barn to store surplus crops he'd grown.

Not, on the face of it, crazy - just being practical to our sorry minds. "Thou fool", however, he said, "This night I shall require your soul of you."

[Madspirit]

10. Where is the monument

Where's the monument to The Victims of Capitalism? I hate hard-core Communism but I am a Social Democrat. I believe in private ownership of property; I believe in free enterprise but I also believe in socialized medicine and wage and price controls. I believe everyone should have a roof/utilities/food.

I bet if you added up all the people who have died because of lack of medical care, homelessness, untreated mental illness, etc. a lot more people have died from capitalism. If you add in our imperialist nature, our desire to conquer and own the world and all the people who have been victims of THAT...Communism has nothing on us, as far as death goes.
Lee

[JHB]

11. Victims of the largest and most complete monopolies in history...

...is what this monument is about.

[David__77]

12. He's just trying to deflect attention from today's victims of imperialism.

A nation is being systematically wiped out - right now.

[leftofthedial]

13. impacted constipervatives

:rofl:

[LiberalEsto]

15. My family members were victims of communism

My mother and grandmother had to flee Estonia to escape arrest and potential deportation by the soviets to a Siberian labor camp. Tens of thousands of Estonians perished in Siberia, sent there by the communists. Estonians were also kicked off their farms and homes, and were replaced by imported Russians. They lost all leadership positions and most of the good jobs.

The communists wouldn't allow my parents to freely go back and visit their parents and relatives. We couldn't even send them gifts, Every letter had to be written carefully, because it would almost certainly be censored. They couldn't attend church.

When things loosened up a bit and my aunt visited us in 1979, she was constantly in fear of being spied on and arrested for saying or doing something untoward. She almost passed out in astonishment when she saw an American supermarket. There were very few things to buy in Estonia, and their distribution was hit-or-miss. My cousin sent me her children's' foot measurements so I could send them shoes. She was unable to nurse her youngest, so I sent her box after box of formula and nursing bottles, because they were nowhere to be had in Estonia.

While occupying Estonia after WWII, Russian communists did their darnedest to eradicate Estonia's language and culture. The only typewriters in the country used the Russian cyrillic alphabet, not the Latin alphabet used in Estonia. School was all taught in Russian. Estonian songs and traditions were frowned upon, but were passed on from generation to generation in secret. It is wrong to try to wipe out an indigenous culture.

I can only speak from my personal family experience and that of people I know, but the same kinds of things happened in Latvia, Lithuania and other occupied states. And much worse things happened to other Estonians, Latvians, etc.


And lest you think I'm some sort of rightwinger, let me say that both my parents were socialists, and I consider myself a Democrat with socialist leanings.

[BurtWorm]

17. No question that the Soviets were brutal, cruel, even murderous

But I question blaming "communism" instead of Sovietism, or Maoism, or the Khmer Rougeism. It may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but it wasn't the communism in those "isms" that caused all that suffering. It was the totalitarianism. To blame communism is to try to claim that left-wing ideology was to blame. Do you see what I'm getting at?

[bryant69]

21. That's only if you accept the theory that left wing ideology and communism are the same thing

They aren't.

Bryant

[BurtWorm]

22. Of course not.

But communism is a left-wing ideology, whereas Stalinism is adaptable to left or right. The wingers are not careful to make such distinctions when they cite communism as the evil to be combatted. They would like to shut down the left entirely, but, like the anti-abortionists, they're content to shut it down one piece at a time.

[bryant69]

24. I obviously think that the right wing wants to distort our history

That said I think this conversation is a little to blase about the dangers of unfettered ideology.

A core point of Communism is that at some point property disappears and class distinctions eliminated. Laudable perhaps; but of course most theoretically or practical attempts to reach this end involve an element of coercion. And when you seek to eliminate all private property, you inevitably create a totalitarian government.

Bryant

[BurtWorm]

27. The point is that not all communists (least of all Marx) think communism can be legislated

onto the world. Marx's theory was that communism was the end of history, but human civilization had to evolve through several stages before it could reach it.

Communism as an idea is ancient. It's the way of hunter-gatherer societies. Even early Christian communities practiced it. In itself, it's not a bad thing, necessarily. The moral idea behind it is rooted in the idea of equality for all. On a large scale, under the control of a state, it's clearly impractical. Sovietism made that very plain.

[bryant69]

29. Well it's terminology then

Communism has meant different things at different times, depending on who you talk to. I usually default to "Socialism hopes to reach the Socialist utopia through legislative means, Communism hopes to reach the Socialist Utopia through revolutionary means" but that's a factor of my education (i.e. I studied the Communist party in the 1930s and 1940s and the Anti Communist Red Scare in the 50s in some depth).

Saying the Soviet Union wasn't communist is to me a bit like saying Baptists aren't Chistians. I guess I can see how some might come to that conclusion but it's not a natural one for me.

Bryant

[Selatius]

34. I call it Soviet-style communism.

Communism only works when all involved decide to give up their capital willingly and pool it in common. As a result, it may indeed work in small numbers or on the local level, but at the national level? I don't think so. You have the freedom to establish a commune of like-minded individuals who all give to each other, but the frank truth is not all people think like that, especially those who profit off the existing order that this new way of living seeks to supplant, but when you seek to force your way on others, it's illogical not to expect conflict, especially from those who were made truly wealthy from the pre-existing system however inequitable it may be.

What causes people to die in political conflict is when people turn communism into a dogma as opposed to merely a guidepost by which to mark one's position in relation to it. The same applies for capitalism. We only need to study Pinochet free-marketeerism to see what happens when dogmatic faith replaces reason in deciding economic models. Dogma, by its very nature, is narrow-minded and exclusionary because one of the operating principles is that its way is the correct way and no other.

[LanternWaste]

25. Agree. Additionally, to reach a "pure" soviet state

Agree. Additionally, to reach a "pure" soviet state of communism (according to Marx), a nation must go through feudalism, industrialism, and finally, *post-industrialism". Then, and only then, may the (big R) Revolution proceedn.

As far as I know, none of the communist countries that exist/have existed had gone beyond the first steps of industrialism prior to the proletariat revolutions in their respective counties.

[LoZoccolo]

38. Here's an exercise for you, then.

Find some people with communist leanings, or even just further left leanings than the Democratic Party, and see if you can't see that these people would start doing the same things to people. It's this self-righteousness surrounding ideas that haven't gained a consensus in the general populace that fuels all the murder and abuse.

Even Green Party/Nader supporters are oppressive; they threaten people with death and destruction at the hands of Republicans, for not being "enlightened". They use catastrophic means to try to achieve power.

[BurtWorm]

39. Try that exercise to the right of the Democratic party and see if you don't

find the same tendencies over there. :eyes:

[LBJDemocrat]

37. I know.

I don't doubt the evils of communism although some apparently like to whitewash it. My family suffered similarly.


:pals:

[Javaman]

16. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say Stalinism? nt

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

18. My first thought when I saw that was: will there be a 'victims of capitalism' statue,...

,...someday? Greed has killed so many,...still kills, every single moment, every second.

[TroglodyteScholar]

31. My thought too...

...but the rest of my thought was that every system of government has its victims. Have we seen a perfect one yet?

[malaise]

20. What about the millions who have been slaughtered

for British,American, French, Spanish, German, etc special interests.

[warren pease]

26. Right next to which will be a far less cheesy monument called...

Heroes of the New World Order

Which will feature, among other wonders, a little boutique selling a new line of shopping carts with built-in DSL, so that even the homeless can stay connected 24/7.

An exhibit explaining the role of life-saving drugs like Valium, Xanax and Prosac, and how they've helped millions cope with their daily diet of sustained American bliss.

An actual black woman (stuffed) driving an actual welfare Cadillac (mounted), to a chorus of pre-recorded jeers and catcalls played on continuous loop through a brand new $14.99 Chinese stereo system.

A 100-yard-long covered arbor, shimmering in the golden glow of the late morning sun, with a hologram of St. Reagan the Munificent smiling warmly and beckoning everyone to follow him down the arbor and into the giant mosh pit of greenbacks just beyond the walkway, where his hologram, along with hundreds of live worshipers, will remove their clothing and leap into the money pit, there to wallow around rubbing newly minted twenties all over their shark-belly-white ripples of suet to the strains of Wagnerian opera until the guards come to gently lead them away.

And it wouldn't be America without a tribute to the Bush royal family. Through the miracle of Disney-patented animation, life-size figures representing each of the Bushes, from Poppy and big Barb down to Jenna and that crack addict skank in south Florida, tell their stories of conquest and debauchery, the heartbreak caused by their genetic difficulties with the English language, their investment secrets (well, not *all* of them), their brushes with the law in more than 120 different nations, even the roots of their undying love for the barren, bleak and biologically dead flatlands of west Texas (quite a story; your eyes will get a little misty).

All that wonderfulness, all day, every day, for less than the price of a bucket of KFC chicken-rats. Who could resist? Then we can all go and flip off the commie bastards next door.

Last one there's a Democrat!


wp

[LSK]

28. communism meaning a central cmte planning all economic decisions

vs letting the market decide on the economic decisions???

I think it was tried in the USSR with not the best results.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

30. There are varying brands of "communism"

My family were victims of communism.

Some people are victims of capitalism. Just ask the homeless.

[kineneb]

32. to the victims of Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Pot, etc.- yes.

But...none of the regimes mentioned were really "communist". They were dictatorships using Marx's work as an excuse. There never has been a completely "communist" country. Just as what we have now is not a capitalist representative democracy, but a corporatist kleptocracy.

[Selatius]

33. The problem is ideological DOGMA, not communism per se.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsis-motuY

Dogma includes both religious as well as political and ideological close-mindedness. Stalin couldn't give a rat's ass about the welfare of the workers. He was no better than Franco or Hitler. He simply carried a different flag, as one of my friends said.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

35. You know what's really bad about things like that? They attract idiots like this:

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/usa/news/article_1316618.php/Victims_of_communism_memorial_dedicated_in_Washington

Congressman Tom Lantos, who was instrumental in the 20 years of work it took to build the memorial, spoke about his own experience fighting both Nazism and communism.

Lantos, a Holocaust survivor who chairs the House of Representatives committee on foreign affairs, used the platform to say he anticipated a closer relationship in the Atlantic alliance with the departure of two European leaders - former German chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and former French president Jacques Chirac.

He recalled how the US saved Europe from fascism and protected it from communism for generations, only to have these two men turn their backs in the fight against the next wave of tyranny, Islamic fascism, by failing to support the United States in its 2003 invasion of Iraq.

Lantos provoked gasps of amusement and surprise in the crowd when he said he would like to call Schroeder 'a political prostitute, now that he's taking big cheques from (Russian President Vladimir) Putin. But the sex workers in my district objected.'

A memorial for the victims of ALL tyranny (aren't the people killed by Pinochet and the Shah and Suharto as good for them?) would be more proper, and it wouldn't lend itself to a right-wing-o-fest.

[Matsubara]

36. Stalinism, Maoism, etc. have left millions of victims dead - so has "capitalism"

But at least capitalism has lots of snazzy advertising to make it look good.

[L. Coyote]

40. You are right. It is rhetorical simplicity at best, lack of understanding too.

Just more old talking points. A good lesson to consider when thinking about the use of the rhetorical "terrorist."

[gravity]

41. It's the unintended consequences from communism

The first problem with communism is that to establish a communistic society, you have to take away people's property. Many people worked hard their whole lives to obtain their possession, and will fight to the death to keep the government from taking what is rightfully theirs. Imagine the government taking away your home for "the good of the people."

Communism is an economic failure too, for many reasons I don't want to get into now. Basically, you have lots of low quality goods and shortages, which end up keeping people's standards of living low. People living in communist societies get around this by illegal capitalistic black markets.

The worst thing about communism, in my opinion, is that it takes away people's freedom. The government basically decides how you should live your life for you, and has to put limits on freedom in order to keep people from speaking out and making their own decisions.

Communism is not like Socialism in western European countries, which are really a mixed economies. Communism, while well intentioned, just ends up creating lots of victims.

[BurtWorm]

42. As I've said many times in this thread, communism doesn't work on the scale of a state.

The idea of a state is even antithetical to communism. But it was certainly essential to Sovietism and Maoism, and it was the awesome power of those states over the people that made them such awful forms of government.

[originalpckelly]

43. There is a fundamental flaw in communism.

It centers around separation of powers. Mainly, the government and the economy must be separate branches of a larger tree of power, they must have checks and balances just like the branches of government power. It's so sad that people just do not get it after so many attempts to unify those two branches of power. How many people have to die before you understand it just isn't going to work?