OK, let me re-phrase my question:

[hedgehog]

Let me first say that being here without a proper visa leaves you open to exploitation by employers and landlords since you can't go to the police. Having a large number of people here with no legal status depresses wages and other working conditions for citizens. In short, illegals are a problem for labor.

Having said that, how many people are opposed to immigration from Mexico regardless of whether it is illegal or legal simply because Mexicans are "different" and "will change the area"? Are these people concentrated regionally in areas that have not seen a lot of immigrants until recently?

As a corollary, is a major reason we can't decide on an immigration policy the fact that a lot of people want no immigration simply because immigrants by definition are foreigners of some kind?

[William769]

1. The only difference I see in Mexicans is...

They are shorter than me. :shrug:

[gollygee]

2. There is more than one school of thought here

There are definitely those who are opposed to immigration simply because people from Mexico look different and speak a different language than they're used to.

There are also people who are worried about the lack of available working class jobs and what will happen to their already bleak employment prospects if a new wave of people come in who also want those few jobs, regardless of what country they immigrate from.

[jaksavage]

3. Racism, racism, racism

We cause problems
Native americans, hawaiians, religious zealots, immigrants
and then we kill those who speak up.
Anglo saxons out compete every other society.
Stop us!
Please!

[Vincardog]

4. So is the question do I oppose Illegal immigration because it drives down wages and living standards

or do I oppose illegal immigration because those brown people speak a foreign language smell funny and will rape my daughters?

So you are asking if I am supporting the US Workers
or just a dumb fucking racist?

I smell a false choice.

[hedgehog]

8. Actually, i really do think there are two groups concerned with immigration policy;

those who oppose it because they are racists and those who have qualms for valid reasons such as population control or the effect on living standard and working conditions. Toss in the further problem that so many people are so desperate to get here that they break the law to do so and that so many will hire them that it is worth the effort and you have a real can of worms.

[Vincardog]

12. Stating that you either are FOR workers or a RACISTS PIG clears it up HOW?

[stillcool]

5. Immigration is such a convoluted thinking issue...

people are so fired up against the illegals themselves...but don't seem to care that 12 million individuals managed to 'sneak' across the borders. The immigration laws are totally ignored, and yet they clamor for 'new' laws, to be ignored. I also think, that the people most upset, are ones that have lived in the same place for their entire life, and are appalled by what they perceive as the ruination of their community, by <gasp> non-English speaking brown people. Maybe it's change they feel so threatened by, grasping desperately to their deluded ideas of permanence and security. I always hear about the decline in real estate value, from unmentionables moving into the area. I have no idea if there is any truth to the statement, but people have been using it for years to justify their prejudice. Like every other issue, that reaches public discourse, the information spewed about is crafted to produce an intended result. It is then treated as gospel and used to frame false arguments that are far removed from the basic cause and effect of any situation.

[piedmont]

6. Re: the culture question--

I'm on the whole ok with the culture I'm currently living in/ experiencing/ participating in. There are many aspects of American culture I would change and I am acting in my small part to change them. I understand that cultures evolve over time, and as I said above there are some things I actively try to help along. But as with most things in life, there's "not enough," there's "just right" and then there's "too much." Setting aside my opinion that this country has too large a population for the resources available already, the cultural issue might be cause for concern. I think "too much change" is of course a subjective determination, with fuzzy boundaries. I don't particularly want to live in a place closely resembling Mexico in poverty and pollution, or to need to speak Spanish to get around in my daily life. Beyond that, I'm not sure what else I would consider "too much change" for me.
But what I'd love to see discussed more is the question of what American policies and actions are doing to the economy of Mexico. How can we improve Mexicans' lives in Mexico so that they don't feel the need to become economic refugees? Although I don't think all of the blame for Mexican poverty belongs to the U.S., we should be the biggest part of alleviating it.

[hedgehog]

7. i agree that the solution is easing the pressure to emigrate,

not making it harder to come here.

[LearnedHand]

9. It's not the two situations you posed that bother me (FRAMING alert)

It's that you asked the WRONG questions. Whatever the RIGHT questions are, they have to do with WHY Mexicanos are coming here to work.

WHICH employers continue to "fund" the flood of undocumented workers? Why do our agricultural and construction economies continue to survive on the backs of those who can ill afford to protect themselves from job slavery? What's going on in the underground labor market that the "black" market for crop and construction workers continue to grow apace? WHICH AMERICAN WORKERS -- BY NAME AND LOCATION -- HAVE NOT BEEN OFFERED JOBS BECAUSE UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS HAVE TAKEN THEM FIRST?

THOSE are the right questions.

(on edit -- why "does" our ... economies? oh, brother)

[hedgehog]

10. An excellent way to re-frame the question!

Here's my experience. I was hired for management work by a local produce packer. I pulled packages from the line to check them for count, weight, size, labeling, quality (did we get all the rotten pieces out)etc.

I often worked on the sort line to assess line speed or to help out when we were short handed. My employer at least was willing to slow the line down when too many bad pieces had to be pulled.

There were three groups working there; illegals, older American citizens supporting families and younger American citizens, some still iving at home.

The illegals worked hard as did the older citizens. Younger citizens tended to goof off a lot.

The pay was poor and working conditions bad BUT I also know that the profit margin was razor thin. The produce was sold to several major chains including one based in Arkansas.

So who is at fault; the grower/packer for hiring illegals? The chains for driving down prices? Or the American consumer for demanding perfect produce at a rock bottom price?

I can tell you this much; wages at my end could have been doubled and the price would have gone from $0.39 a pound to maybe $0.41!

[The Straight Story]

11. It is like people who want to slow down/reverse the world's population growht - competition

over resources.

There are only so many jobs, rooms in school, college, etc and so on.

I favor immigration - controlled based on many variables (some years more would be approved, some years less).

I think most everyone favors immigration, it adds to our diversity, etc.

What many don't favor is just tossing the rules out and letting people just come here without any controls or ratios.

We are already upset with urban sprawl, too many cars on the roads, etc - and part of the growing pains are due to a large influx of people here.

So if we want to keep sprawling and using up our forest lands, wetlands, etc for housing, and put more people on the roads, then all we have to do is just say 'who cares, let everyone come here without any control on the process'.