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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) |
burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:19 PM Original message |
Should a state be forgiven for it's racist past if it has never apologized? |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:23 PM Response to Original message |
1. To require an apology before forgiving is to utterly misunderstand forgiveness. |
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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:26 PM Response to Reply #1 |
3. I didn't really mean in a "cosmic" sense. A state can officially |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:27 PM Response to Reply #3 |
4. You're right, it's not a meaningless act. But it's irrelevant to the forgiveness issue. |
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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:29 PM Response to Reply #4 |
6. I would think it would need to precede the act of forgiveness |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:31 PM Response to Reply #6 |
7. If someone requires *anything* before forgiving someone, it's not forgiveness. |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:38 PM Response to Reply #6 |
13. You have it exactly backward. Forgiveness in the true sense is unconditional. |
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kdmorris (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:42 PM Response to Reply #6 |
15. Actually, not really |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:46 PM Response to Reply #15 |
20. So why stop with an apology? Hold out for a million dollars...that'll make it a LOT easier! |
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kdmorris (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:59 PM Response to Reply #20 |
26. I doubt it |
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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:01 PM Response to Reply #26 |
28. that was kind of a hit-and-run |
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kdmorris (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:21 PM Response to Reply #28 |
40. I certainly didn't mean it that way |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:03 PM Response to Reply #26 |
30. You seemed to be saying it was at least an incentive, if not exactly a requirement: |
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kdmorris (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:20 PM Response to Reply #30 |
39. Actually, I was just trying to get along |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:23 PM Response to Reply #39 |
43. I think we mostly agree, but it makes the discussion more interesting if we bitch at each other |
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kdmorris (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:25 PM Response to Reply #43 |
46. LOL |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:35 PM Original message |
Just stay away from ROGER A(i)les |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:53 PM Response to Reply #6 |
24. Forgiveness Merely Means Releasing Oneself Of Any Anger Or Resentment Towards Another. |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:37 PM Response to Reply #3 |
11. So which state should apologize for appropriating the territory of what's now the USA? |
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philosophie_en_rose (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-17-07 07:29 PM Response to Reply #1 |
123. It's hardly an either-or scenario. |
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Rabrrrrrr (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-17-07 09:00 PM Response to Reply #123 |
125. I think you have misinterpreted me (though I don't think you are doing so intentionally - |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:24 PM Response to Original message |
2. How Do You Forgive Imaginary Lines Of Land? |
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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:27 PM Response to Reply #2 |
5. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you ain't a black dude |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:37 PM Response to Reply #5 |
12. Wisdom Doesn't Limit Itself In Such Ways Such As Narrowing Its Scope. Race Isn't A Factor Within It |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:40 PM Response to Reply #12 |
14. Also, extending forgiveness on behalf of a dead ancestor is meaningless. |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:45 PM Response to Reply #14 |
19. Not Sure What The Obtuse Biblical Suggestions To The Contrary Are, |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:47 PM Response to Reply #19 |
21. "Sins of the father visited on the sons...to the 7th generation" |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:48 PM Response to Reply #21 |
22. Ahhhhh Yes. Gotcha. I Always Hated Those Parts Of The Bible, |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:51 PM Response to Reply #22 |
23. Yeah, mine too. If I had any. |
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JeffR (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:42 PM Response to Reply #5 |
60. I'm white, painfully white, also a Georgia voter |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:36 PM Response to Reply #2 |
10. *sigh* |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:43 PM Response to Reply #10 |
17. Maybe It Is You Who Jumps To The Wrong Conclusions. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:02 PM Response to Reply #17 |
29. If we had EVER apologized for what we did to the Indians |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:13 PM Response to Reply #29 |
33. You Have Completely Missed The Point. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:18 PM Response to Reply #33 |
36. Your government has, and does |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:23 PM Response to Reply #36 |
42. I've Not Only Gotten Your Point, I've Provided Pure Irrefutable Wisdom Back In Response To It. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:25 PM Response to Reply #42 |
47. Your government has and you don't give a shit |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:32 PM Response to Reply #47 |
52. For Someone Who Accuses Others Of Jumping To Conclusions, I Can't Help Notice How Quickly You |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:42 PM Response to Reply #52 |
59. My god, we ARE the government |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:46 PM Response to Reply #59 |
63. Deleted message |
OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:50 PM Response to Reply #59 |
67. WE Are Not The Govenment. WE Are Two People Of Different Genders Typing On Our Keyboards. |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:56 PM Response to Reply #67 |
76. I often disagree with your opinions, but your logic here is irrefutable. |
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mudesi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:00 AM Response to Reply #76 |
81. His, and your "logic" is nothing more than a sophistic exercise in manipulating semantics |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:05 AM Response to Reply #81 |
88. So what exactly are you doing right now for the people of Iraq to ameliorate the actions |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:06 AM Response to Reply #76 |
90. Thanks. I've Enjoyed Sharing The Position With You As Well. I'm Hittin |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:11 AM Response to Reply #90 |
96. It's all good. Sleep well. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:02 AM Response to Reply #67 |
84. Plausible Deniability - Just Like I Said |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:07 AM Response to Reply #84 |
91. So what are YOU doing to help the victims of the guy in Oregon who |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:10 AM Response to Reply #91 |
95. Yes I'm responsible |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:17 AM Response to Reply #95 |
104. It is my best of times, it is your worst of times. |
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mudesi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:11 AM Response to Reply #91 |
97. The prosecutor ought to quit |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:10 AM Response to Reply #84 |
94. Please Then, Oh Keyboard Guru, Enlighten Me As To What I AM Responsible For. Please, Enlighten Me. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:18 AM Response to Reply #94 |
105. You're completely irresponsible |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:22 AM Response to Reply #105 |
107. BBZZZZZZZTTTTTTT. You Failed. Knew You Couldn't Do It. Goodnight Now. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:31 AM Response to Reply #107 |
112. Nanny nanny boo boo to you too |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:37 PM Response to Reply #47 |
55. Here's an idea: You apologize to the Iraqi people for "your" government. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:44 PM Response to Reply #55 |
62. Bad Bush, bad bad Bush |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:51 PM Response to Reply #62 |
68. You can't even keep your own agenda straight. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:55 PM Response to Reply #68 |
74. The OP was about the STATE |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:01 AM Response to Reply #74 |
82. We will know you are sincere when you have researched your geneaology back to Adam |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:03 AM Response to Reply #82 |
86. I've gone back about 400 years |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:09 AM Response to Reply #86 |
93. Deleted message |
sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:13 AM Response to Reply #93 |
99. No, I'm really not |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:28 PM Response to Reply #36 |
49. I'm the great-great-grandson of a murderer. What -exactly- must I do to satisfy your |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:31 PM Response to Reply #49 |
50. Did the murderer pay for his crime? |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:41 PM Response to Reply #50 |
57. Bullshit. I'm not responsible for my ancestors' actions. You aren't responsible for yours. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:46 PM Response to Reply #57 |
64. If I can fix something, I would |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:52 PM Response to Reply #64 |
69. Oh, you would FIX it. How Godly of you. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:57 PM Response to Reply #69 |
78. #44 |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:03 AM Response to Reply #78 |
87. You're not the first precocious 9th grader I've ever encountered. |
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mudesi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:32 PM Response to Reply #17 |
51. Here's a hair |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:37 PM Response to Reply #51 |
56. Sorry Pal, Your "hey everybody, look at me! I'm gonna say something witty" Schtik Failed Miserably. |
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mudesi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:42 PM Response to Reply #56 |
58. Time for a recharge |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:55 PM Response to Reply #58 |
73. Now That's Suprising: A String Of Noncontextual Nonsense From You. |
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mudesi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:56 PM Response to Reply #73 |
77. . |
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slowry (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:04 PM Response to Reply #2 |
32. Do you get off on taking contrary positions, based on fucking technicalites of language? |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:18 PM Response to Reply #32 |
37. Do Not Confuse Technicalities With Logic. This Is About Wisdom, And The Wisdom Is Pure. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:21 PM Response to Reply #32 |
41. That's a very very common response to racism |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:27 PM Response to Reply #41 |
48. That's Hands Down The Most Inaccurate Analogy To Be Used Towards My Words. It Is 100% Illegitimate |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:35 PM Response to Reply #48 |
54. They're your words |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:44 PM Response to Reply #54 |
61. I Can Say That And There Have Been No Acts Done In My Name. This Is Just Silly Now. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:49 PM Response to Reply #61 |
65. Is this your government or not? |
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:58 PM Response to Reply #65 |
80. Everything The Government Does Is In Their Name, Not Mine. |
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Retired AF Dem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-17-07 05:32 PM Response to Reply #65 |
121. I didnt vote for this Govt |
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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-17-07 04:26 PM Response to Reply #41 |
120. the argument fails when one considers that the curret descendents |
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gravity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:14 AM Response to Reply #2 |
101. I agree |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:31 PM Response to Original message |
8. It's more about trust |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:44 PM Response to Reply #8 |
18. Ah. More "conditions." Your 'forgiveness' only extends to the extent your lips can serve. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:56 PM Response to Reply #18 |
25. And if I gave unconditional forgiveness |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:59 PM Response to Reply #25 |
27. Nope, I'd call you a normal human. Nobody does altruistic things. Ever. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:03 PM Response to Reply #27 |
31. No you wouldn't |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:15 PM Response to Reply #31 |
34. Get some help. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:16 PM Response to Reply #34 |
35. Karl, you are who you are |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:19 PM Response to Reply #35 |
38. I am exactly who I say I am. I don't hide behind a pseudonym. |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:24 PM Response to Reply #38 |
44. See, now you've really lost it |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:34 PM Response to Reply #44 |
53. NOBODY expects me to be rational? |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:35 PM Response to Original message |
9. Maybe we really should "burythehatchet" |
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arewenotdemo (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 10:43 PM Response to Original message |
16. Only time in my life I EVER voted Repuke was in a |
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Catherine Vincent (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:24 PM Response to Original message |
45. I guess they should be forgiven, whether it apologizes or not. |
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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:53 PM Response to Reply #45 |
71. how can it be forgotten...it lives on today |
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Catherine Vincent (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:13 AM Response to Reply #71 |
100. I chuckle at White Flight" |
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ellisonz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 03:49 AM Response to Reply #100 |
117. There is nothing funny about "White Flight." |
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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 07:55 AM Response to Reply #117 |
119. the virtual fence |
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KingFlorez (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:50 PM Response to Original message |
66. You can't be forgiven for something you don't apologize for |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:54 PM Response to Reply #66 |
72. Jesus would disagree with your opinion. |
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KingFlorez (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:45 AM Response to Reply #72 |
115. That's just what I believe |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:57 AM Response to Reply #115 |
116. Oh, I understand your position. You want to put conditions on it. |
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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:56 PM Response to Reply #66 |
75. the way I see it, the people who did it are long gone, but the people paying the price |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:24 AM Response to Reply #75 |
108. How much money would be an acceptable substitute for an apology? |
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Nikki Stone1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:52 PM Response to Original message |
70. No |
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Marrah_G (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Jun-15-07 11:57 PM Response to Original message |
79. I'm going to apologize to myself |
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Blue-Jay (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:01 AM Response to Original message |
83. Someone help me out here... |
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Marrah_G (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:02 AM Response to Reply #83 |
85. ! |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:08 AM Response to Reply #83 |
92. Its like family dysfunction |
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Blue-Jay (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:12 AM Response to Reply #92 |
98. OK... I guess so.... |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:17 AM Response to Reply #98 |
103. Admitting guilt is a first step |
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Blue-Jay (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:19 AM Response to Reply #103 |
106. "Sorry I stole your land, dude." |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:27 AM Response to Reply #106 |
109. Maybe if we admitted we stole the land |
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Marrah_G (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:28 AM Response to Reply #109 |
111. I've yet to meet anyone who diesn't understand how wrong the Native Americans were treated |
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sandnsea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:32 AM Response to Reply #111 |
114. Meet more people n/t |
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Blue-Jay (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:31 AM Response to Reply #109 |
113. I wasn't trying to trivialize anything. |
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Marrah_G (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:27 AM Response to Reply #103 |
110. And then... |
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karlrschneider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:15 AM Response to Reply #83 |
102. That was a wonderful post. Distilling the issue to its essence. |
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gravity (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 12:05 AM Response to Original message |
89. A state isn't a person |
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mudesi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-17-07 08:00 PM Response to Reply #89 |
124. Do you celebrate the 4th of July? |
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ellisonz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Jun-16-07 03:56 AM Response to Original message |
118. NO! It's called social justice. In America, the people are sovereign and therefore responsible. |
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philosophie_en_rose (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Jun-17-07 07:26 PM Response to Original message |
122. No. |
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DU AdBot (1000+ posts) | Mon Sep 16th 2024, 03:29 PM Response to Original message |
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