Does the immigration 'problem' affect you? Are you angry? I'm not.

[babylonsister]

Also, I've asked this before. Who thinks 'no one' wants to find/reach a solution
to the immigration problem now? Everyone is going to be angry at whatever solution they come to; it ain't gonna happen this week, year, maybe decade? Circular firing squad will result where everyone who's so angry can blame everyone else.

[wildhorses]

1. yes, it affects me. no, i am not angry.

:shrug:

[babylonsister]

3. How? nt

[wildhorses]

59. my brother owns a small business --

the last 10 mexicans to apply for a job have given 'false' ssn. he has a couple working for him. they file that they have 10 dependents. they pay no taxes. they are pregnant and are receiving 'free' medical care. my brother is upset. i just wish the ones that are already here were given 'real' ssn and, were immediately put into our tax base. it is a huge problem in my area. it is another squeeze on the small business person. i could go on but, honestly, i hate to put to much of my private and, personal life in open forum. i hope that this post does not bring on attacks.

[mema42]

60. its a try

Owning a small business in todays climate is tough. One of the things I have
against the current immigration bill is that the fines on small employers are
the same as fines on big business. The difference the fines would easily put
many small employers out of business and they can't afford to fight it in
court. At least one small business group is against this bill because they do
not scale the fines. Big business must just be overjoyed at the prospect of
being able to attack small business yet another way.


Your brother may be taking legal risks not hiring those who he
believes have false ssn. The current law if the documents look valid, you
cannot refuse them employment based upon a belief they are false. It puts
employers in a bind, especially if they try to be responsible about hiring
minorities.

I have heard good things about the Basic Pilot program offered
for free by DHS. It has improved quite a bit with recent upgrades to where it
is a reasonable method from what many reports say.

This bill will be a real boon for big business and government control.

The whole idea of RealID being required for employment of everyone, citizen
or not, is just crazy. How long is it before it is required for doing
anything, and the concept that the government can keep any information on you
they want and do not have to tell you is worse.

[proud2BlibKansan]

67. B.S.

If they aren't citizens, they can't get medical care for free unless it is an emergency. Last time I checked, being pregnant wasn't an emergency.

[mema42]

73. depends on the state

That depends on the state. Illinois does cover pregnancy whether you are illegal or not. Really I don't have a problem with that. Children are covered, at least at some ages, whether the parents are legal or not also from what I recall.

[proud2BlibKansan]

74. Good for Illinois!

But I do believe there are federal regs prohibiting spending federal dollars on health care for non-citizens.

[mema42]

80. not federal

The federal may exclude it now, I am not sure. Illinois took it upon themselves. Good in a way, as I said, however the State isn't in a good financial position. But then its Illinois, the home of the Chicago political machine.

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. Well Illinois should get ready for an influx of Missourians

since the repukes have taken health care away from 100,000 Missourians.

[amandabeech]

97. Their fake SSN's may pass muster at assistance offices, but

not through the DHS system.

In fact, I'd be suprised if assistance agencies at any level, local, state or federal, are hooked up to the DHS system at all, unlike a few employers.

[Texasgal]

107. Bullshit...

I am am an RN in triage... YES... giving birth IS an emergency.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. BS on the SS

when we came to this country on a greencard we got our SSN within a week of aplying for such at the SS Adminsitration

Why is it that I don't beleive that part of the process has changed?

[mema42]

81. false ssn

I think the original post was referring to those who use a false ssn because they are here illegally and want to work. Apparently in many areas, or even from coyotes, they can pick up copies of ID's that are fake, including ssn. Often the ssn are valid anymore because it is to easy for the system to check the made up ones. So that can really hurt the person it belongs to. The sad part is they can get an ITIN from the IRS and the IRS will not check their immigration status for it. They can use that for work. Part of the problem with illegal immigration is the victims on all sides that surround it, both those coming here illegally, americans whose id is used, and others can be victims of the crimes surrounding it. Criminals can also use that same system to avoid being caught.

[SoCalDem]

78. Your brother is an "enabler" if he hired them, then?

Sounds like your brother needs to pay a bit more, and choose from the "American" applicants:)

[otohara]

85. Hubby Hasn't Had Raise in 4 Years

on the other hand, they need cheap labor to fill jobs that "yes" American's won't do. Small business guy knows he could fill my husbands' job with lower paid Hispanic, so he doesn't give out raises anymore, but we do have health insurance, lower paid Hispanics do not.

Sucks for us, sucks for them.

[dysfunctional press]

2. i can think of only one way that it has affected me directly-

i was rear-ended by an illegal immigrant w/ no driver's insurance.

THAT pissed me off.

[Horse with no Name]

35. And I was angry when the 3 different US citizens

totaled 3 different cars that didn't have insurance.
I think that anger is a natural emotion that isn't limited to illegal immigrants.

[mema42]

83. so how did you know?

So how did you know they were illegal as compared to immigrant, or even citizen.

I ask this question because quite a few localities prohibit asking immigration status and even if they don't I wonder how you got the information. I don't think it should be given out in general.

[dysfunctional press]

106. the d.a. told me so.

it was an expensive proposition- the guy hit me from behind, and shoved my car into the car in front of me- since the illegal had no insurance, the guy in front of me went after mine.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

4. Yes, it's affects me, and I'm kinda angry...

simple solution. Fine/Jail the employers. Follow the law already on the books.



It ain't rocket science :shrug:


edit: more detail

I used to work Warehousing. now it pays $2 less per hour and they want me to speak Spanish.
Now I'm a Painter. We are constantly being underbid by illegal crews, and some of us are only making $10 per hour.

[pampango]

43. If I were an employer, how do verify that the guy I am hiring is legal?

I understand that good fake SS cards are available on the street for a decent price. Do I have to go further than just accepting genuine-looking documents? Do I take these extra steps with all applicants or just those who are Hispanic and don't speak much English? Does that open me up to charges of racial or ethnic discrimination? Do I just avoid hiring Hispanics at all, to avoid possible legal problems?

I am all for prosecuting employers who break the law, no matter what the law is. I realize that at DU it is more palatable to go after the employer (rich/white/corporate) for political reasons, but are they all to blame if the current law has faulty verification procedures?

I figure that the illegal immigrant community knows what kind of documents pass muster and which don't. It's kind of like in the lobbyist community, they know which loopholes in the law they can exploit and which parts of the law they better not mess with. If anything is going to change, we have to change the rules of the game, which requires new legislation.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

58. the same way I did when I was hiring plant guys...

you enter the #SS on the Gov. website, and within 2 days you get an e-mail telling you if the # is valid and matches the name.

(this was a couple of years ago, now you can get immediate results for up to 10 numbers at a time)

http://www.ssa.gov/employer/ssnv.htm

We don't need MORE legislation, we need to enforce the laws we already have!

[mema42]

61. that doesn't really work

That url should only be used to verify current and former employees and only for wage reporting (Form W-2).

The DHS does have an Employment Eligibility Verification system available for free. That should be used for employment purposes. There is free training you can get on-line and several methods of access. They basically try to train you on how to use the system and give documentation on what to do if you the number is not verified as authorized. It isn't for reporting the person, since many times a person legal to work may not be authorized. For example, someone gets married forgets to change their name. Then they can be given the opportunity to fix the information.

https://www.vis-dhs.com/EmployerRegistration/StartPage.aspx?JS=YES

[Viva_La_Revolution]

64. it doesn't take any training... and yes it will throw back any # that does not match

the exact spelling of the name.

those problems are easy to fix, the website walks you through the whole thing.

but when you have a name with no such number, or a number with a totally different name - that person is using an illegal card whether or not they are from another country.

Lots of criminals use fake ID too, and that's how we found out one guy we hired was wanted by the cops in another state.

It seemed to work for us all the way around.

[TahitiNut]

88. Isn't it a shame that a piss test isn't enough?

:eyes:

For over 25 years I've had to provide college transcripts, social security number, drivers license, passport, personal and professional references, and other data just in applying for jobs ... and a urine test more than half the time to get hired. (And I've never been a pilot or bus driver, either!)

Pity the poor employer! They just don't know ENOUGH about who they hire!!

:nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

[fob]

5. I don't know if/how it affects anyone. Is there a REAL study anywhere

that shows the net effect of this group of 12 million people? I hear all the "there takin' our jobs" and "they do the work 'Mericans won't do" and "they just come here and live high on welfare" and it all seems like each particular groups spin. I want to see a real study that shows the NET COST of "illegals".

I'd also like to know how universal healthcare would change that assuming that as it is now there's a high incidence that "healthcare" is done at the most expensive point, the Emergency Room.

While I'm at it, let's find out the NET COST of whatever other groups of 12 million people that can be readily defined and see where the REAL drain on resources lies.

My gut feel is that there is a net surplus from the activities of "illegals".

I know there is a chart of money sent to DC from the states that shows pretty well across the board that "red" states are welfare states taking more FROM DC than they send TO DC, whereas the "blue" states send more TO DC than they get FROM DC. So at this point the bigger problem for me are republicans in red states sucking up my blue state green!

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Yes there are real studies

done by academics...

And yes the effect in depresing jobs is real, as in very real

It is also a reality that ilegals CONTRIBUTE to the economy, as you said there is a surplus, again them pesky studies

Search for academic paper in academic journals that specialize in border relations, as well as economic policy

[Jim Warren]

13. One problem too is

The influx has been fairly massive in just the last five years. It will be difficult to accurately assess the consequences fully at this time. Studies like this are after the fact, and variables are constantly
in play. For example, many workers came because of the housing and construction boom. Now that it's cooling or cold......what happens to that major slice of available labor?

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. I suspect that some of them will go north

or go home...

Remember, they are here becasue of ecnonomics

If employers were fined and the incentive to hire was gone, you'd see the same dynamic

[Zookeeper]

30. Ilegal workers have definitely come north....

in the last five years. Some directly from the country in which they are citizens, but many are coming from other areas of the country where illegal workers have already depressed wages and where there is now a surplus of cheap labor and exploitable labor.

[fasttense]

46. There was a study posted here on DU several times that shows these

illegal immigration slowing because of the housing bust.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=114&topic_id=25060

[PsN2Wind]

17. There might be some positive effect for the federal government

but that is due to their sluffing the costs of education, medication and incarceration of illegal immigrants off onto the states.
I really doubt that the feds receive a benefit. When a person is doing for minimum wage what another person used to do for $12/hr the feds lose even if, and it's a big if, the contractor is sending in the tax he's withholding, the FICA he's withholding and the workers comp, etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. FICA and Workers Comp

goes into federal coffers, and it is not payed out at 65.

This has been the finding over the years, and it is a constant

[PsN2Wind]

28. My reference was to employers that withold

FICA from the pay of these workers and do NOT remit it to the government.
Not uncommon among those knowingly hiring illegals.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. And yet anoher ilegal practice

the fact still remains, the feds do get the money and the "beneficiaries" never see it

Studies that have been done cite billions

[proud2BlibKansan]

86. $5 billion a year

in contributions to SS by undocumented workers.

[mema42]

91. ssn fraud

Knowingly using a social security number that is not legally yours is against the law. If they paid into Social Security because of it then they were willing to do that to get the job. ITIN is what they should be using. They can get one even if they are illegal without the IRS checking immigration status. They would not pay into Social Security on an ITIN. They would still be liable for federal taxes. I do not know if they can get EITC or not now, that seems to change with the weather.


They can draw social security if they become legal, social security is mandated to pay those who have contributed if they are legally entitled to it at the time they retire. It does not allow them to remove amounts paid in while they were illegal. That is how Social Security works currently.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. None of that discounts the contributions made

that are never given back in benefits.

[mema42]

94. ssn

As I said, if they become legal they can get them back. Beyond that one is usually not allowed to profit from the commission of a crime. At least unless your a corporation, government official, ergo you steal, you get caught, you do not usually get to keep the item you stole.
Understand social security number theft is not a crime without a victim. There are plenty of victims of it.

Even then, they do not really know how much of the Social Security earnings suspense fund is from illegal immigrant contributions. These same issues have occurred with previous amnesties. In the past they have just given the social security benefits based on affidavits from relatives, friends, etc. that they were employed. Further since the same social security number is often used numerous times, the same work record can be used numerous times. There is no way of proving who actually deserves it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

96. They can use my number

:)

[mema42]

87. Red/Blue

Are the Red States the states with high illegal immigration?

One thing is that people do really need to differentiate between immigration and illegal immigration. The census doesn't. This causes an issue for electorate votes and representatives since whole population is used, which makes sense in a way. I'm just not clear in my mind if it makes sense all the way.

I guess a theoretical question might help here.

Lets say there was an area with a majority illegal immigration population and they were able to vote in local elections (this is constitutionally acceptable).

Lets say they vote that the school district go Spanish and English become the second language.
Should that be allowed? I can see why it might benefit the majority of the population in that area, but is it best for society in the whole picture?

Some libraries in Denver, Colorado as I recall, were planning on going Spanish and putting all English and other languages in a back room. I'm not sure if they ever did. The point is things get complicated. I can see both sides and its hard to find a right answer sometimes.

[OKDem08]

6. I don't know where you live but there are some areas of the US

for which this is of utmost importance and it's not completely unjustified. Of primary concern is the public school system which some judge have been lessened to accommodate the influx. Many are angry...no, scratch that--ENRAGED on this issue.

[babylonsister]

12. I live in TX,. There are many Hispanics here, and I'm okay with it. nt

[blondeatlast]

53. AZ--and I'm okay with it too. It's not like it's really a new thing;

they were coming here when I was a child.

But somehow, nowadays, it's a crisis. I don't get it.

[barb162]

19. I was just talking with a teacher whose small school district has

300 extra kids on ELL, English Language Learning, this year. All immigrants. The district had to hire six language teachers to teach these kids English, to find extra space for the kids, the extra teachers, etc. It's costing the district a bundle. It's a farming / small town county. He said everyone is pissed off about it because they're paying for it through the nose.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. I am a teacher in a school that is 80% ESL

and I am proud to live in a country where ALL children's education is valued.

One thing I think a lot of people don't consider - if we did turn these kids away from our schools, what would happen? Their parents wouldn't leave the US; they don't come here to educate their kids, they come here for jobs. So if we did refuse to let them enroll in school, what would happen to these kids? What would they do all day while the 'real' American kids are in school?

Here's hint - they wouldn't sit at home and read books. :eyes:

[mema42]

63. can't really turn them away from school

There isn't an option to turn them away from school.

If the public can't afford the schools, the hospitals, the doctors, the social programs, the increased resources, the increased decline of natural resources. What can be done?

That is the part of the problem. The employers do not pay them enough, and if amnesty is given to these, then more will come, because these will then want the higher wages as soon as they can find a job that will pay more.

There are towns in Mexico where all the men have left, where children will not go to school. They get money from their Father in the U.S., they want to play and spend money, when they are old enough they will go to the U.S. too. That is just sad, that they see working in this country as goal in life, that they do not realize education is the way to get ahead.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. But the public CAN afford it

First of all, the price of NOT educating them is much higher than any of these reactionary types realize. The damage to our society when we add hundreds of thousands of uneducated members is probably too high to measure. I will also repeat my earlier point - what will all these kids do all day when they are turned away from our schools? I personally am not comfortable with the idea of large numbers of school aged kids on the streets in my community all day long when they could be in school.

This county CAN indeed afford the schools, the hospitals, the doctors, the social programs, etc. We are spending 720 MILLION dollars a day in Iraq. That money would pay the salary of 12,000 elementary teachers or build 84 new elementary schools. It is enough to feed over one million school lunches. And that is just ONE DAY"S spending on the invasion of Iraq. So yes, we can afford it if we prioritize it.

There have also been numerous studies done, (many posted right here on DU), that indicate an overall POSITIVE economic impact from immigration. The money that undocumented immigrants contribute to Social Security alone (and never withdraw) is a huge drop in that bucket.

So you bet we can afford it.

[mema42]

79. not always

Net positive effect of immigration - what does that mean?
Does this differentiate between legal and illegal immigration? Different immigrant groups? Does it include Federal, State, and local costs? Does it include the costs of loss of natural resources? increased energy usage? After all the U.S. uses more energy then other countries, as the become part of this society, their energy usage increases. There is no complete report, and I have read a variety of reports, from both the left, the right, and non-partisan sides. It is an unknown. We do not track those here illegally, remember they are in the shadows.

We have a deficit, unless you look at the unified budget which includes the amount paid into FICA. Just because the U.S. spends the money does not mean they have the money.


If they ever change their legal status they can draw Social Security, paid on those wages earned illegally, unless they are specifically excluded. Current Social Security law does not exclude it. There is also a SS totalization agreement sitting at the President that has not been sent to Congress that could make it so they could draw even if they are illegal. If they paid into it they also used a false Social Security number, which especially if it belonged to someone, creates real havoc for the person whose social security number it was. It isn't nice getting a letter from the IRS that you owe an atrocious amount because your social security number was used a few hundred times by someone to get a job and earn income that is reported.

Further you may not be aware, but there is a thing called an ITIN. This allows them to get a job without using a false Social Security number and then they don't pay into Social Security, and the IRS does not check immigration status. That would be the socially responsible thing to do.

Certain areas of this country cannot afford it. Not the way income and taxes are structured now. So the facts on the ground are differing with the studies. Reality wins every time.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. Interesting data at this link:

It is certainly true that low-skilled workers do, on average, consume more in government services than they pay in taxes, especially at the state and local levels. But some of the estimates of that cost have been grossly exaggerated. Moreover, the value of an immigrant to American society should not be judged solely on his or her fiscal impact.

. . .

If we accept the NRC estimates, then allowing an additional 400,000 low-skilled immigrants to enter the United States each year would have a one-time NPV impact on federal taxpayers of $2 billion. That cost, while not trivial, would need to be compared to the efficiency gains to the U.S. economy from a larger and more diverse supply of workers and a wider range of more affordable goods and services for native-born Americans. In a post–September 11 security environment, comprehensive immigration reform could also reduce federal spending now dedicated to apprehending illegal economic immigrants.

. . .

As for alleged overcrowding at public schools, lowskilled immigrants cannot be singled out for blame. Enrollment in the public school system has actually been declining relative to the size of America’s overall population. The share of our population in K-12 public schools has fallen sharply in recent decades, from 22 percent of the U.S. population in 1970 to 16 percent today.8 As with roads, overcrowding in certain school districts is more likely to be driven by new births and internal migration than by newly arrived immigrants.

. . .

A recent report from the Rand Corporation found that immigrants to the United States use relatively few health services. The report estimates that all levels of government in the United States spend $1.1 billion a year on health care for undocumented workers aged 18 to 64. That compares to a total of $88 billion in government funds spent on health care for all adults in the same age group. In other words, while illegal immigrants account for about 5 percent of the workforce, they account for 1.2 percent of spending on public health care for all working-age Americans.12

http://www.freetrade.org/node/667

[mema42]

89. I read the CBO report

The CBO report was a bit misleading, not that it was intended to be.

The problem is the CBO report is for a short time span, much of the costs come later as they grow older and retire.
The CBO report includes off-budget as income (off-budget is FICA taxes - Social Security)
The federal spending includes costs of enforcement - much of the costs of enforcement did not come until later, after the period the CBO report was on.

So take it all with a grain of salt. Its a difficult issue to really have good research on. So everything considered, my view is, to simplify:

legal immigration - good
illegal immigration - bad ( partly because it is such an unknown)

I don't quite understand what the url you posted as trying to say as far as public schools. The enrollment rate is dropping because the baby boom generation is getting ready to retire. The amount of immigration necessary to outweigh the effect of the baby boom generation would probably be a bad thing in the long run. So we should expect it to decline and deal accordingly.

The schools here, rural Illinois, are not a matter of new births, and there are more obits then births. There is some segment of hispanics, I have no idea whether legal or illegal, and they do cause part of the issues with the schools. The schools are paid for mostly by property taxes, lower income's tend to have an effect on properties values, so taxes go up to cover the larger population. The schools have a difficult time to find the funding for handling translation services, ESL, etc. They have dropped quite a bit of subjects to try to cover the costs. I don't believe it is to be blamed on the hispanic population, if anything I would blame it on slow government response to an issue they should have seen coming.

[proud2BlibKansan]

90. 99% of what is happening to our schools can be blamed on NCLB

I am a teacher and I get to live the horrors of that law every damn day.

I won't dispute that the influx of kids who don't speak English is not a concern for many districts. I just see this as more of a benefit than a harm. Those kids don't make my job harder; inadequate funding (a problem long before anyone talked about immigration) and ridiculous govt regulations are the most difficult problems we educators face.

[mema42]

92. regulations NCLB

That those are a problem is oh so true. At least one thing Illinois has going for it is that it is relatively easy to become a private school and teach at home. My son is eight and goes to a small neighborhood school. The Jr. High and High school both have drug problems, and other issues, even in a rural area. If he has problems when he is in the higher grades, I just plan on taking him out of school. He will miss some parts of it, but so be it. I ended up teaching my daughter at home when she got beat up by a gang of kids, I just can't accept children getting beat up after I teach them it is wrong to fight.

[treestar]

39. Kids learn languages easily

They always have.

Especially if they are immersed in it, in the country where the language is spoken.

Gimme a break, this is another one of those problems we invent to play the victim. Poor U.S. So victimized by poor people just trying to survive while they live in middle class comfort.

[sandnsea]

42. It's the farmers' employees' kids

If they were hiring white people, they'd have kids too. I swear I can't understand how people can depend on illegal farm workers at cheap wages, then turn around and get mad because the farm worker qualifies for public assistance and has kids that go to school.

[amandabeech]

99. One of my friends in my hometown transferred one of his children

to a school 20 miles away. The local school is crap and under state and federal law, kids can transfer out.

His beef is that there were so many Spanish speaking kids taking up time in the classroom, that his kid didn't get the help it needed. The new school has many fewer Spanish-speakers and a better tax base, so the kid gets the extra help that it needs and is doing well.

The other kid is doing well in the local school because it doesn't need the extra help, and by now, is in advanced classes where everyone speaks English regardless of background.

[illinoisprogressive]

8. not overwhelming. some illegal immigrants but, doesn't bother me.

[KT2000]

9. Doesn't affect me and

I don't really understand it.
I live in a rural community where many people have come from Russia, China, Mexico, Central America and South America to work.
I am not angry. In fact I don't witness anything that looks like a problem for society.
Except the rudeness some people show people from other countries.

[babylonsister]

14. There you go; what ever happened to the Statue of Liberty's words,

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to be free.

We've lost sight of that.

[barb162]

20. Those are great words. But remember we chose who was let in.

[Lex]

22. For the most part, the US processed boatloads of people as they arrived.

Not exactly a rigorous process of "choice" or application.

[barb162]

34. They were checked for obvious illnesses.

They were checked for names, country, etc. If someone climbs a fence and has a serious disease, that's quite different. I know of a person who came illegally with Hansen's Disease and guess who is paying for his treatment? Not the country where he's a citizen.

[mema42]

71. historical immigration

Immigration isn't a bad thing, illegal immigration can be very bad.

We did not have all the social programs then we have now. This does create a problem. Its good to have the social programs but it is also important to be able to pay for them without taxing the citizens into an underground economy. The underground economy has been growing at a rapid rate, the consensus is largely because of illegal immigration. If that is the case, that leaves many unknowns if they are given legal status. One benefit would be that money added to the economy, if they choose that path. A harm could be social programs are unable to handle the added burden.

[Jim Warren]

24. Not really

The New Colossus was inscribed on the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty as the portal to Ellis Island and the path to legal immigration.

[KT2000]

27. Yes we have

I tend to believe that immigrants are the true life blood of this country. Always have been.
Who else has such enthusiasm for free enterprise, home ownership etc? Even the next generation becomes complacent compared to their parents.

I just see a lot of energy and effort in this new community. And how can people tell if someone is legal or not? I'm afraid that skin color is beginning to mean "illegal" to some idiot people.

[Lex]

10. Yes, it affects me. No, I'm not angry. I'm taking a Spanish class.

Lead, follow, or get out of the way. (Or whine, bitch and moan and get left in the dust, bitter.)

[babylonsister]

16. Kudos to you! The wave of the future, and I've known that for some time.

It does work both ways, but you are being progressive. :thumbsup:

[Gregorian]

11. Pretend that you are the earth.

That's the perspective I use. The beings on my surface are all part of me. Somewhere along the line they decided to put up fences. I'm not exactly sure why they did it. I think it was greed and fear.

I do not distinguish between those on my surface. They are all the same to me.

Boundaries are the imaginary lines that are used to create war.

You are all on me. You are all here together. And together you are all on a tiny sphere in a vast space. You are essentially alone in a vast space. Alone and fighting.

Unfortunately, one bad apple spoils the bunch. You argue about who is worthy while those who are truly worthy are suffering. And who is to say who is worthy? We do not know. But we waste time and energy as if we did know.


And on those rambling thought, which probably mean nothing to anyone but me, I say goodnight to DU and the internets everywhere.

Once again, I think the human race should watch this. I think it solves just about everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNp-ldlnf5s

[L. Coyote]

15. It affects everyone. The question is, Who should we be angry with?

My vote goes to illegal employers. The people who evade state, local and federal taxes, worker's comp, social security, retirement and medical benefits, wage laws, labor laws, all to enrich themselves, are the root of the problem. They are driving down wages for everyone.

[karlrschneider]

18. I refuse to be bothered with the "problem". I do NOT CARE about it!

But I do worry that Emma Lazarus isn't resting well. The only way to 'fix' it is to eliminate all borders. After all, they're nothing more than real or virtual walls that keep us from exercising -our right to freedom-. Put that proposition on a worldwide ballot: Who would oppose it?

[jobycom]

21. It affects me, and I'm only angry at the government for making immigration so hard.

I live in central Texas, and do payroll and human resources (amongst other things) where I work, so I have to do paperwork to make sure our new employees are legal. I've only run across one who wasn't, and he didn't show up his second day when we asked for documents to fill out the I-9.

One of my co-workers was Latino, and born in Texas. He married a woman from Mexico with a teenage daughter. I had to help him get together records so he could bring this step-daughter to the US. He needed work histories, salary histories, proof of insurance, and I don't even remember what else. I probably did forty to fifty hours of work for him, and he did a lot more. He had to go to El Paso three times to turn in the paperwork--that's an eleven hour drive--using up his vacation time and even taking time off. Each time they found some minor nonsense wrong with his paperwork and he had to come back and get more stuff, and had to go back to El Paso to turn in the whole bundle again--they made him start over each time. It took over a year to get it done, and it didn't get done until he went to an immigration rights attorney. And it cost him close to $5,000 to get it done. Remember, he's an American citizen, born and raised here.

I can't see the whole issue as anything other than racism and xenophobia. For every study that "proves" illegal immigrants are bad for the economy (like, no citizens are?), there is one showing the opposite. It's not worth the violation of human rights.

[magellan]

23. Legal immigration does not bother me

My husband would not be here without it.

Illegal immigration on the other hand is a symptom of a bigger problem that affects us all, whether we realize it or not. It's not just about corporations in the US that hire economic immigrants who enter this country illegally, driving down wages in certain areas. It's about how our corporations behave in other countries: hiring low wage and child labor; putting farmers and other local industries out of work (forcing them to look north for a living wage); and producing so much on the cheap that the goods they then sell back to us are shoddy, if not downright dangerous.

The name of the problem is Free Trade. It's more accurately called Slave Trade. And no, those who can resolve it won't; they're getting too much out of it.

[treestar]

41. They will drive down wages whether here or not

Outsourcing is a direct result of our fear of immigrants.

We cannot seal the economy or expect the rest of the world to bow down to us Americans as more valuable.

[fasttense]

47. Where did you hear that one treestar?

"Outsourcing is a direct result of our fear of immigrants."

Outsourcing is a direct result of greed making a profit off of cheap labor, it is a result of weak unions and an oversupply of cheap labor. It is a direct result of making the average middle class worker compete with prison labor, child labor, indentured servitude and communist policies. It is a direct result of the investment class promoting wealth at the expense of the working class. It is a direct result of a weak sovereignty that promotes the welfare of elite corporations at the expense of its citizens.

Did you know that India outlaws corporations from selling retail? India is more than willing to take our jobs but they will never become the market for the products of those jobs. It is illegal for Wal-Mart to open in India. That's why the corporatists sell their junk here in the US and not in India. Soon there will be no market here in the US because the middle class will have no jobs and no money to buy the junk. Then we will not have an immigration problem.

[treestar]

66. I think its because we limit the number of employment based

immigrants and H-1bs allegedly to save "our" jobs, and have not realized that the capitalist doesn't have to stay here. Capital can go where it wants.

As for greed, they will use the cheapest labor they can, so would you if you were the owner of a company, and would get all your raw materials as cheaply as you could.

We just have to deal with reality. If you price the same car for $30,000 at dealer A and at $32,000 at Dealer B, you buy it from Dealer A, don't you? Is that "greedy?" No. It's just reality. Dealer B can complain of your greed but what does Dealer B expect?

ETA: if those immigrants and H-1Bs were here instead of India, they'd be doing their consumption here and adding to the jobs here. Also their employer's office would be located here, and all that economic activity. We have the biggest economic engine, that's why so many want to come here, and we're giving it away.

[2Design]

29. affects all of us BUT I would rather spend money on people than bombs

I just think of what would GOD want - helping people and not killing people - for all the money wasted on military and bombs and bullets we could feed the world and help raise everyone to a higher standard by paying them decent wages instead of driving them to drugs, alchohol and such because they see no way out - most people are good and just trying to survive this planet and feed themselves and their families and unfortunately we seemed to have forgotten that with capitalism and bombs - now it is what can we get from the next guy so we survive and who gives a whoot about any esle type attitude - it sucks

The solution is to help the world toward peace and stop all these fricken military bases around the world and bigger and better guns - stop making these massive guns - a single bullet is enough to kill something

and for those to stop being anti abortion while being pro war - war is killing for no reason most of the time

[The Straight Story]

31. As I said elsewhere - does the overpopulation affect you?

The whole idea here is that there are more people in a smaller place fighting over resources (hospitals, schools, jobs, etc).

When some of those people should not be here using those resources, ie - they came here illegally and outside the system set up to allow people to come here, it can cause problems.

When you allow for X amount to come here, and then x + y come here, you end up with issues like those we see today.

You PLAN on allowing people to immigrate here, you want them to be able to, and when the amount exceeds what you planned on (mainly from people not following the immigration policies that was made into law) problems ensue.

Those that used the right channels are not the issue, they were planned on. Those who decided to come here around those channels are the issue.

[area51]

49. Great post. (n/t)

[mema42]

65. you have it right

That is exactly the issue. So why does the issue exist? Our government is not so foolish that they do not know the resources are not there to handle them. So why are they not insisting the laws be enforced.

Agreed, Mexico has its problems, and we need to help them, but the path to help those that come here illegally, is to help them in their home country. The ones that want to live here because they want this to be their country should be welcomed here. Those that come here for jobs, we need to make opportunities in their country.

[Cobalt-60]

32. probably affected. Not angry at Immigrants.

Even without illegals and H1b slaves, American Workers were Bushwhacked starting the moment the shrub was appointed.
Without Mexican labor the labor side of IT, Cable Installation, could have been stocked with ex - or current - cons.
IT companies could have just as easily acted in collusion with one another to hire only these substitutes for minimum wage while skilled veterans were starved out.
The higher tech side could have done the same thing with recent college grads. Everyone with a minute's experience at network administration or coding could have just as easily been frozen out.
Indeed, I believe they must have had just a plan as a backup or an alternate strategy.
So they are affecting me in the sense that they are being used against me instead of others.
My white hot anger is focused at the conspirators that eliminated my second career, not at their tools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Yes it affects me. No I am not angry.

[StrongFRONT22]

37. this quesiton isn't very specific

it effects me every day in one way or another.

[xchrom]

38. i live in mexifornia. -- nope doesn't make me angry.

[treestar]

40. Not at all. There is no "problem" except in the imaginations of

xenophobes. If anything, I pay less for vegetables.

Human migration occurs and has throughout all history, is especially true of the U.S. and has in fact made the U.S. the rich country it is.

People can be such morans.

[donheld]

44. I have no anger at the Immigrants, but

I have a great deal of anger and those who are seeking out cheap labor whether it's through illegal immigrants or off shoring jobs ot other countries. It's funny nobody much talks about outsourcing except some of us here at DU

[LandOLincoln]

45. I guess it affects me, but I'm not sure how. And am I angry? No.

I calls it "karma."

I live in New Mexico. I've been here for 15 years. Before that I lived in Los Angeles for 21 years. I guess it's safe to say I prefer Hispanic culture, by and large, to most others (I'm pure Brit, meself, except for a wee bit o' Comanche).

Now, I should explain that I don't care much for the Catholic religion, but then I pretty much despise all organized religion--they're all about political control through fear--so there you are.

I love the art, the food, the land--god, especially the land.

And "they" were here first.

Like I said, karma.

[Babel_17]

48. Affects me

I work in an industry that can't be exported, construction, and my employer has to compete with those who are using illegal workers.

I'm angry with government and those employers. I'm dismayed at how this simple issue is largely ignored and/or discounted.

My anger at government is partly due to the cowardice of not facing up to this problem a long time ago. Where's the credibility?

No solution can be fair if the burden of it falls disproportionally on the backs of US workers. There's an element of a zero sum situation here. A very large wave of workers eager to do jobs US citizens already do = a depression of wages of the already hurting US working class. Any compromise would, imo, needs massive funds to ameliorate its negative effects on US workers and those who wouldn't be allowed to stay. Mexico needs help.

I can't support a bill that avoids fairness and reality. The rule of law would protect US workers. An amnesty bill should recognize the interests of the US worker as its prime concern. The burden of dealing fairly with those who were enticed to come here and work illegally should be on the backs of the wealthiest. It's that wealth that has most prominently benefited from the fruits of their labor.

[Jim Warren]

50. An amnesty bill should recognize the interests of the US worker

Should.

But it won't because it doesn't care about the US worker, they're expendable. It solely cares for the US business class.

As the U.S. engages in a heated debate over how to overhaul its immigration policies, a top Google executive made the case before Congress to open the doors to more high-skilled foreign workers and make it easier for them to become citizens. "The fact is that we are in a fierce worldwide competition for top talent unlike ever before," said Laszlo Bock, vice-president for people operations at Google. "As companies in India, China, and other countries step up efforts to attract highly skilled employees, the United States must continue to focus on attracting and retaining these great minds."

Bock's comments came June 6 during a day when business leaders testified on immigration reform. The four men who appeared before the House subcommittee on immigration represented very different sectors of the economy, from restaurants to farming to the Internet. But they all agreed that the U.S. needs to welcome more workers from abroad.

Courting Controversy

"We have a serious demographic problem in the United States," said John Gay, senior vice-president for government affairs and public policy at the National Restaurant Assn. "Without an overhaul to our dysfunctional immigration system, we are in danger of not having the workers we need to grow our economy."
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2007/db20070606_792054.htm?chan=technology_technology+index+page_top+stories

So we're supposed to listen to a guy from the National Restaurant Assn. and take seriously his pronouncements on growing the economy........from restaurant service jobs???? bwahahahaha :rofl:

[mema42]

95. interesting comments

The article has some interesting comments. Apparently the whole technology field is being abandoned by U.S. citizens at the higher education end. This I can attest to being a side effect we did not bargain for of outsourcing. My husband is in the tech field. He says he would not go into that field now, he is hoping to get a Masters in another field. Why? Because the wages just aren't worth the hours you have to give up. He is always on-call, between working at home and the office he works 60+ hours a week, and they get almost no raises. It doesn't make economic sense to go to college, work for a degree in that field, and then hope to find a job and keep it, while dealing with long hours, and the other pressures of work.

[amandabeech]

101. And paying off student loans. n/t

[gollygee]

51. My area has been hit hardest by "free trade"

I would say I am effected by "free trade" and outsourcing much more than immigration, personally.

I am not angry about the issue of immigration or at any immigrants, illegal or legal.

[ikojo]

52. Outsourcing jobs is likely to affect me more

than immigration. I am more likely to lose my job to a low wage state or a lower wage country such as India than to an immigrant. I welcome immigration, for had my great grandparents not immigrated to this country 98 years ago, I may not be here.

My dad's father was from Ireland
My mom's grandparents were from Bohemia

All three people came over after 1900...my mom's grandparents came over around 1909 or so.

How can a country composed primarily of descendants of immigrants now say, "you're not welcomed." Most Americans descend from those who immigrated during the last great wave of immigration between 1880 and 1920.

[amandabeech]

104. Do you have a cite for that?

The reason that I'm asking is that I saw an article recently on the ancestry of the European-descended population.

The largest ethnic group was still those whose ancestors came from the U.K. The next largest group were Germans, then Irish. Those groups all contributed to the great wave, but had high and perhaps highest immigration numbers prior to 1880. The British all through our history, and the Irish in 1840s, the Germans 1840s-1860s.

I think that the Polish, Italians and Swedes wete next in line. Many Swedes came here before 1880.

[alarimer]

54. the REAL problem is these trade agreements like Nafta

It has made it more difficult for these countries to take care of their own. I was hoping that the Mexican elections would go the other way; instead they "elected" a Bush clone. But I am encouraged by the trend in general in South America to elect more populist leaders. It is well-documented that US business interests (see Confessions of an Economic Hit Man) have interfered in the economies of these countries and now we are reaping what they have sown. These people have no choice but to leave their own countries and seek work here because they cannot live on what they get paid there.

[mema42]

68. They are all one and the same

NAFTA is much of the problem, outsourcing has hurt Mexico jobs too. Companies moved to Mexico for cheap wages, life started to get better in Mexico, companies shut down the plants and moved to a even cheaper country, going to the next victim.

In concept globalization is good. In reality it is being used only for profits. Until all countries have open borders going both ways, and the people are in control, instead of special interests or businesses, then globalization is used for control rather then empowerment of the people.

[amandabeech]

102. When Clinton got MFN for China and China joined the WTO,

Chinese products could come into the U.S. very cheaply.

IMHO, MFN/WTO undermined the few decent ideas about NAFTA.

[NNN0LHI]

55. No. I just look around and see who it seems to bother the most

Stormfront, KKK, Lou Dobbs, Pat Buchanan, my racist family members and acquaintances, etc.

That tells me everything I need to know.

Don

[Clark2008]

56. There is a smallish Mexican community within my larger community

and it doesn't bother me at all. These immigrants have come in and maintained a very lovely Mexican restaurant in the neighborhood for years. Now, they have opened a reasonably-priced automotive repair shop and work as clerks at various retail shops. One of my favorite clerks is from Jalisco, Mexico and I even made my husband stop by the store where she works on our way back to the hospital just so I could show Maria our new baby.

The difference, I think, is that these immigrants have assimilated into the community - most of them probably are legal, speak English and live and work and attend the Catholic Church in the community alongside the "average Americans" without "taking their jobs" or "lowering the pay rate." They are PART of the community rather than sequestering themselves into little enclaves.

[amandabeech]

103. They've probably lowered the pay rate of the other mechanics in town.

Have any high-school drop-outs or high school graduates with low grades left town recently, and not because they wanted to?

Sure, there are plenty of very nice, unskilled immigrants. I've met them in my hometown. But now there are so many of them that some jobs require both English and Spanish skills, making it harder for the natives to get work unless they go to the community college 25 miles away to take Spanish lessons during the daytime.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. Quite a few immigrants around here. Russians, Ukrainians, Mexicans, Guatamalans I'm delighted. .

Mostly poor people who are just trying to make a living and delightful to talk to about America, the countries they came from, and life in general. But, being not "patriotic" and a "good American", I never ask them for their papers or inquire about the citizenship.

[Annces]

62. Has it affected you? You don't say. n/t

[mema42]

69. what I am angry about

I'm angry that the government refuses to enforce the law because of big business buddies and special interests. I'm angry the government continues to have policies in this country which hurt the poor here in and in other countries. I am angry for all the bills passed and rights taken from people in this country, we have failed in actually solving the ills.

Case in point, Durbin supports NAFTA fully. Probably because of all the grain Illinois produces. Yet, that is exactly what caused quite a bit of the problem for the people in Mexico. How can you say on one side, we have to take care of the poor but totally ignore the fact that NAFTA is harmful to the poor in Mexico?

[Kansas Wyatt]

70. Yes and it DOES hurt working Americans.

Anyone who says differently is full of BS.

I do not give a damn if they ever go after illegals for illegal entry into the country or not. I do give a damn whether or not the gov't goes after employers of illegals, because that is the only way to stop it and correct itself. Illegals cannot work, then they go home on their own dime. Problem solved. I will never support any politician (Dem or Repub) who grants any status to illegals over going after the employers of them.

[High Plains]

77. Yes, it has affected me.

There are now three Mexican restaurants in my South Dakota town. Que bueno!

There has been a real influx of Hispanic workers in the area in the last few years. They mainly work at the turkey plant or the beef jerky plant, right alongside native workers. They get paid the same.

Do they depress wages? I don't know. What I do know is that meatpacking wages now are far lower (in real terms) than when I was a unionized meat-packer in the 1970s. But they busted the unions...and that was long before the influx of Hispanics.

[EFerrari]

98. The fascinating thing about this whole issue is the unlikely alliances

that are cropping up. Bush and immigrants' orgs on on side, Labor and the Minutemen on the other.

:crazy:

[Thirtieschild]

100. Can sit on our back porch and see 70 miles or so into Mexico but

haven't been affected. This county is more than half Hispanic, but everyone I know comes from families who have been here for generations. Most still speak English with an accent, which I find delightful.

Last week, while driving on I-10 in eastern Arizona, the car started quivering. I pulled off at the next exit, followed a winding road into a graveled field. We had just gotten the spare out and found the jack, when a yellow Mustang pulled up, a young man came over and changed the tire, while his wife and toddler watched. They were young enough and we are old enough that they would have seen us as elderly. They didn't speak English and we don't speak Spanish so I don't know who they were or where they were from, if they were legal or illegal (wouldn't have asked anyway). I'm still amazed at they way they handled it - didn't slow down and then stop, just pulled up behind us and changed the tire. They acted with so much authority that I've half wondered if they were our guardian angels and conjured up a Mustang so their wings wouldn't frighten us when they came to our rescue.

[smirkymonkey]

105. The "immigration" problem that pisses me off is that I can't

easily immigrate to another country myself. It doesn't seem fair that it's so easy for people to get into the US, yet it's so difficult for US citizens to immigrate to other countries, even when family members only a few generations before were born there.