Illegal immigration. Is everyone missing this?

[Cleetus]

Here's why *any* bill granting temporary worker status or a path to citizenship will fail. It's so simple, yet I haven't heard it mentioned yet. What happens the moment an undocumented worker gets his/her guest worker status?

They're out of a job.

The moment a worker is assimilated into the system and has rights, the employer will terminate him/her and replace him/her with another undocumented worker.

Employers of illegals like things the way they are.

We don't have an "illegal alien" problem, we have an "illegal alien employer" problem.

[whistle]

1. Is that the meat packing plant in Oregon did when they were raided

...and fined a few months back?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

19. Del Monte just got raided in Portland last week

The temp agency that did the hiring are the only ones in trouble. They had a new hiring agency and all jobs filled within 48 hours. All at minimum wage. :(

[Jade Fox]

2. We don't have an "illegal alien" problem, we have an "illegal alien employer" problem

Thank you for making that point. The focus should be completely on employers breaking the law, IMO.

[Cleetus]

5. Exploitation sucks

It breaks my heart that things are so bad across the border that these people come here to be exploited by rich Americans. Is this our idea of respect and dignity, taking advantage of desparate people?

I don't care if I have to pay extra for a head of lettuce or some tomatoes.

Everyone whines about how we're being screwed by the oil companies. That they have us by the balls and that they're free to do whatever they want to do.

It's the exact same thing with undocumented workers and the people who hire them.

[MissWaverly]

20. I am not so sure about breaking the law

Didn't the Supremes just rule that you don't have to pay home care workers minimum wage. Well, who is going to work for less than
minimum wage and no benefits?

[Jade Fox]

22. But that still doesn't give people the legal right.....

to hire someone to be a domestic who is in the country illegally, does it? It is against the law to hire illegal aliens, isn't it, or is there an exception for home care workers?

[MissWaverly]

27. I am not sure how stringent the laws are on the private home

looking for a nanny, a companion, a maid, but if they don't pay minimum wage who will they get?

[wildhorses]

3. i can not speak for anyone except the employer whom i

know personally. they would be delighted to hire them legally!!!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

10. At what pay rate?

I don't know anyone willing to pay what they would have to pay conventional legal workers with the same skills. The main reason employers are using illegal workers around here is to save money.

[wildhorses]

12. he IS NOW paying the going rate based on experience ---

please!!!!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

13. OK I know nothing about your person

Don't get your knickers all knotted up. I didn't attack you, I only asked a question based on my experience. I do know a great deal about those who hire and work illegal aliens. I know no one that hires them for any reason other than to save money on their labor cost. However, I also don't live in an area where they hire illegals for field work and perhaps you do.

[wildhorses]

16. sorry.

i got slammed yesterday on this topic and, i am little sensitive. it involves a family member who is doing the best they can given the circumstances.

please accept my apology.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

21. No need to apologize

I do appreciate the explanation, however. I was confused as to your reaction at first.

Your experience is simply different from mine. There are others that have a different perspective from either you or I.

This is what complicates the issue. There's not one solution that is right for everyone. The best we can hope for is that the one that is best for most prevails.

[TheFarseer]

4. Interesting theory

I'm not sure that's completely true, but definitely worth considering. This all seems totally unfeasible to me. The best is the provision where they have to pay $5,000. Huh? The apple pickers are going to come up with 5K? It just doesn't make any sense. And how can you make 12 million people do all this stuff any easier than you can bus them all back to Mexico?

To me the only answer is to cut off social services to these folks and jobs. I've seen the other side of this where HR people are trying to decide who's legal and wading through fake documents and social security numbers trying not to get sued for being racist. It's not so easy. I'm not sure of the best way to cut off the jobs, but people with more information and practical experience in this matter than I should be working on this.

[Cleetus]

7. Can't cut off social services..

We can't cut off social services. What are we going to do, watch children die in the streets?

If you remove the incentive for these people being here in the first place, then they won't come. That's one solution. Another solution, what I envision, is that we welcome Mexican immigrants with open arms, providing there is opportunity for them here, which I believe there is.

I couldn't imagine the desparation they feel. I am so blessed, I have a well paying career, I drive a new car, I am insured, I am middle class. Sure, life can be challenging at times, but I couldn't imagine things being so bad that I'm forced to kiss my family goodbye and sneak across into a foreign country just so I can earn enough to feed my family.

[EFerrari]

6. Yep, that makes sense. In much the same way that some

employers use under age kids and part time shifts to avoid all kinds of stuff.

[glowing]

8. Exactly, I work with them, watch their children, attend parties and

functions, learn another culture and language and share good times. Nobody discusses legal status. They are people. They have dreams. It is not about the people, it is about a position available if they come. And why oh why are these jobs too demeaning for Americans? If we had universal health care and decent wages, I don't think many would mind doing these jobs.

[sandnsea]

11. Other than field work

People do those jobs every single day. It's a bald faced lie that they don't. They just won't climb on a roof in 100 degree weather for minimum wage, if they can stand inside a retail building for the same amount.

[sandnsea]

9. Guest workers won't have rights

They'll be able to hire them without any of the protections citizens have. They'll use guest workers, and if guest workers complain, they won't hire them back. They'll just hire new guest workers who can't speak the language and don't know their rights. The reason path to citizenship will fail is because of the guest worker program, which is legalized slavery.

[TahitiNut]

15. That's why there should be absolutely no such thing as a "guest worker."

That's an inherently monarchist/feudal approach to the exploitation of human beings. It rests upon and creates a vested interest in the perpetuation of oppressive societies and colonial governments in neighboring nations.

[sandnsea]

17. Immigrant Activists support it

It sounds good in theory. Get a legalized document, come work, go home at will. Leave your kids and family in your home country. But it won't work that way and the writers of that legislation must know it. It's absolutely tragic. Good thing the legislation isn't going to pass I guess. The UFW in CA started working with a labor trader, a company that has already had lots of problems. Maybe by the time this bill comes up again, they'll figure out this guest worker is just not going to work.

[TahitiNut]

14. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to focus on amnesty or "path to citizenship" ...

... or any other special (one-time?) treatment of people currently working/residing in this country without complying with the laws UNTIL WE ALIGN OUR IMMIGRATION LAWS WITH THEIR ENFORCEMENT.

What we have is widespread violation and non-compliance with our immigration laws and immigration laws that seem to be deliberately designed so enforcement is next to impossible.

That's an IMPOSSIBLE situation. We're trafficking in human labor! Treating human beings as a means to an end instead of an end in themselves is both immoral and corrupt.

I see very little ethical distinction between that subset of "illegal aliens" called "undocumented workers" and the plethora of so-called "legal aliens" being exploited for their labor ... and that includes "guest workers" and other people with "work visas" (e.g. H-1B).

Subordinating human labor to the entitlemenst of 'ownership' is fundamentally corrupt. It is the EXACT same corrupt perspective that formed the foundation for slavery.

Work is one way in which citizens participate in the building of a society and a nation. Participation is aboslutely essential to a democratic society ... including participation in public service, community service, national service, economic activities, political activism, and voting. One cannot 'hire' others to bear the burdens of participation and remain democratic. There is no substitute for direct participation.

I've expressed my views more completely in the subthread at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1119465&mesg_id=1125791

[Viva_La_Revolution]

18. exactly. nt

[lovuian]

23. Your stating the truth the employer would have to pay

Social security and taxes and Disability insurance and yes

Millions of workers would be citizens but out of work

thats really the crux of the issue right there

[L. Coyote]

24. TEXT Senate Bill 1348 = MUST READ

TEXT Senate Bill 1348 = MUST READ

http://kennedy.senate.gov/newsroom/press_release.cfm

PDF File: http://kennedy.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/MDM07620_xml.pdf

[L. Coyote]

25. A thread for those who have read the proposed language

Senate Bill 1348 is much discussed, but who has read the text?
Perhaps this one DU thread could be limited to those who have.

TEXT Senate Bill 1348 = READ first, then comment.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x289114

[Marrah_G]

26. I've been saying this forever

If you legalize all the workers you will simply end up with 12 million more people looking for a job. Illegal employers do not want employees who complain and demand right and workplace safety. They will replace those workers with the new wave of illegals and we will be far worse off with 12 million more competing for the legal job and wages will continue to be stagnant if not completely eroded.

Without putting an end to the illegal employers NOTHING will change it will simply get worse.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

28. Yep, those workers with rights are an annoyance to the coporatocracy. And, they could vote.

MKJ

[Nictuku]

29. Here is another thought

I'm against the worker program, to me it equates to slavery.

These guest workers will not have the protections of the labor laws that citizens have.

So what do we do with 12 million workers? (make them legal, and give them protections. That qualifies them for taxation. Their taxes will help pay for the baby boomer problem they keep bitching about. Their taxes will ease the burdon on the hospitals. And here is a bonus, because they are protected by the labor laws, it means that minimum wage, at a minimum will be legal. That is the bonus to Citizens. They will not have to compete with low wage, under-the-table workers.

But that will probably never happen. I can be a polyana at times. I do think it would the the right thing to do.

[Mind_your_head]

30. Congratulations! You have figured it out!

:wow: :think:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

31. Thank you.

I've felt all along that the government needs to go after the guys who hire people at substandard wages rather than kicking people out of the country.

[ecstatic]

32. Thank you. I've said that repeatedly. nt

[Disturbed]

33. McLame said that American Citizens would not do farmwork

even if they were paid $50 per hr. Do you believe that he is correct?

[goodgd_yall]

34. Every body benefits from an underground economy

Illegal aliens are just one of the group that make that up. People who are part of the social services system, (or not---disabled who cannot get approved for SSI) are another group. I think we all ought to face up to reality and stop being so damn perfect "rule of law"-ish.

[UTUSN]

35. Neh, nobody's missing NOTHING!!1 n/t

[truedelphi]

36. That is one concern. But also there is this:

I live in an area where there are masses of immigrants. They can hold their job
as long as they show up and are the perfect employee. But should anything out of the ordinary happen, a sickneess or injury, a broken down car, - the employer does not have to consider their needs - they get replaced.

It is a system that favors the young of course - because the young are far more likely to be in good health. Older workers are more likely to become sick.

This is one of the reasons I resent the notion of an open border. The more open the border, the more likely it will be that the third world conditions will prevail inside our country.

[CrispyQ]

37. ...

[treestar]

38. If so, then the only solution is to give a visa to anyone who enters

A visa of some kind. It need not entitle the person to any benefits. It would then just prevent the employer from having any opportunity to exploit someone. Anyone who couldn't get a job then would go home, knowing they could come back and try again later.

If people could pass in and out, they'd go home for medical treatment, too. They do have health care in Mexico, for example. So the alleged drain on U.S. hospitals when illegals allegedly use ERs for major surgeries would no longer be a problem. Sometimes we create our own problems and whine about them.

This would also increase opportunities for health care work in Mexico, though it might lessen it some for U.S. health care workers. But they are in shortage anyway.

Opening the border is not the disaster some make it out to be. Not everyone wants to come to the U.S. and stay forever. They stay forever because our policies make it impossible to return once you've overstayed or when you just don't qualify to come in.