Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

2300+ year-old words describe our present situation perfectly

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 03:57 PM
Original message
2300+ year-old words describe our present situation perfectly
To fit in with the change of events, words, too, had to change their usual meanings. What used to be described as a thoughtless act of aggression was now regarded as the courage one would expect to find in a party member; to think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one's unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Fanatical enthusiasm was the mark of a real man, and to plot against an enemy behind his back was perfectly legitimate self-defence. Anyone who held violent opinions could always be trusted, and anyone who objected to them became a suspect. To plot successfully was a sign of intelligence, but it was still cleverer to see that a plot was hatching. If one attempted to provide against having to do either, one was disrupting the unity of the party and acting out of fear of the opposition. In short, it was equally praiseworthy to get one's blow in first against someone who was going to do wrong, and to denounce someone who had no intention of doing any wrong at all. Family relations were a weaker tie than party membership, since party members were more ready to go to any extreme for any reason whatever. These parties were not formed to enjoy the benefits of the established laws, but because they were partners in crime. If an opponent made a reasonable speech, the party in power, so far from giving it a generous reception, took every precaution to see that it had no practical effect.

Revenge was more important than self-preservation. And if pacts of mutual security were made, they were entered into by the two parties only in order to meet some temporary difficulty, and remained in force only so long as there was no other weapon available. When the chance came, the one who first seized it boldly, catching his enemy off his guard, enjoyed a revenge that was all the sweeter from having been taken, not openly, but because of a breach of faith. It was safer that way, it was considered, and at the same time a victory won by treachery gave one a title for superior intelligence. And indeed most people are more ready to call villainy cleverness than simple-mindedness honesty. They are proud of the first quality and ashamed of the second.

Love of power, operating through greed and through personal ambition, was the cause of all these evils. To this must be added the violent fanatacism which came into play once the struggle had broken out. <...> Thus neither side had any use for conscientious motives; more interest was shown in those who could produce attractive arguments to justify some disgraceful action. As for the citizens who held moderate views, they were destroyed by both the extreme parties, either for not taking part in the struggle or in envy at the possibility that they might survive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Phredicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ahh, Thucydides. A great historian, and that passage is in my opinion
his very best work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. At the time, people probably just accused him of being bitter about Amphipolis
:P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Phredicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. He probably was a better historian than general,
and thank goodness we don't follow the Athenian practice of electing our generals - General Stone Cold Steve Austin, General The Rock, etc.:scared:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. He was outclassed by Brasidas I think
But then you have to worry about his talking up that particular opposing general, to excuse his own circumstances. I'd probably trust Thucydides more than Caesar, at least. The latter's descriptions of elk in particular are somewhat bizarre. :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. yep
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for the thread jpgray
Kicked and recommended.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. thus proving, once again...
that History does repeat itself. And there is nothing new under the sun.

Those who fail to learn the lessons of history...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Exactly. We haven't changed much since ancient times, sadly
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. Envy in the possibility
that they might survive.

The politics of destrucvtion is absolutely certain in its ebventual doom. Taking everyone else down with it is part of its desperation and self-pride and reality, humanity had long ago been deserted to fashion a new, vaporous world out of unrealistic personal power and fantastic aims.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. Does this mean we get a plague soon?
God, I love Thucidydes...

Though I would remind you of equally true and much more troubling words regarding our situation:

"This empire, though it was wrong of us to take, will be fatal to us should we release it"

In short, we're probably f***ed no matter what :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. You know what else hasn't changed?
It's STILL a man's man's man's man's world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. But it wouldn't be nothin' without the Melian Dialogue
:dunce:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. Wow
Scarily appropriate.

People don't seem to learn from history.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Nah--this is the best description I can find of what's going on today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. (a) That's not 2300+ words, and (b) They're a lot more than a year old. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov 03rd 2024, 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC