WOW... VT Middle School Students Wrote The Following Letters After Debating Impeachment

[Hissyspit]

I'm choking up just reading these. Maybe there is hope for the future after all...

http://www.reformer.com/ci_6174402?source=most_emailed

BAMS students weigh in on impeachment
Reformer.com

Tuesday, June 19
Editor's note: Students at Brattleboro Area Middle School wrote the following letters after the school held a debate on impeachment in April. Mike Herbert spoke against the impeachment resolution while impeachment resolution author Dan DeWalt spoke in favor of the grass-roots movement. Here is a sampling of the students' opinions. More of their letters can be found online at www.reformer.com.

Editor of the Reformer:

On Monday, April 23, Mike Hebert and Dan DeWalt came to our school to talk about impeachment. Mike Hebert believed that Bush and Cheney should not be impeached. Dan DeWalt, on the other hand, had a different viewpoint. He believed that Bush and Cheney should be impeached because Bush lied to the country about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The main thing that I learned was to hear the facts before deciding what I believe.

My opinion on the impeachment movement is that the Bush administration should be impeached because I do not think that the president should be able to lie to us. But I also agree with some of Mike Hebert's views. Overall, the most important thing I learned from both of them was that you can believe in what you want.

John P.

BAMS seventh-grader


Editor of the Reformer:

- snip -

My opinion after hearing the two speakers is that I agree with Dan DeWalt. I believe President Bush and his administrators have gone against the U.S. Constitution. Also, President George W. Bush has lied to our whole country. I might be mistaken, but is that the kind of president we want, or is that the kind of president we need? I don't think so! Thanks to Dan DeWalt and Mike Hebert for coming in and teaching us much about impeachment; we learned a lot!

Kilee M.

BAMS seventh-grader


Editor of the Reformer:

- snip -

As I believe, and what Dan DeWalt has told me, the Bush administration lied about all of these and has put the country and many citizens in danger. There has also been wiretapping and spying with no permission which goes against the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution, which states freedom from search. Freedom from search basically means that you have freedom to privacy. Another thing DeWalt said was that Bush is allowing people to torture captives. This may not seem like a big deal, but this may give other countries a reason to torture our citizens. Torture is not always a reliable way to get the information they think we want to know, whether it is true or not.

It is your duty, however, to listen to the other side, just like what Mike Hebert said "If you believe it is your duty to stand up, then you also have the responsibility to listen to the other side." Hebert thinks that George Bush is a good man and should not be impeached. I don't remember a lot of what he said because it was, in my opinion, very weak compared to Dan DeWalt.

As you can see, Dan DeWalt got through to me and changed my thoughts by telling me only the truth, and I want Bush to be impeached now that I know what he has been doing.

Dustin B.

MUCH MORE AT LINK

[Cerridwen]

1. So "simple", even a 7th grader can see it

Yet our "elected representatives" can't see it.

Things that make you go "hmmmmmm".

[pat_k]

27. Like the story of the Emporer's New Clothes, . . .

. . the "authorities" and "sophisticated" are usually taken in far more easily than the naive. If we are to preserve our constitutional democracy, ordinary Americans must learn to trust their own judgment and reject the sham.

Too many of us have been deceived into believing that we are helpless in the face of "professional" authority. Nearly all of our Representatives and Senators are lawyers, who are perhaps the worst offenders when it comes to obscuring "common sense" with legalisms and appeals to external authority. It is arguable that allowing lawyers to "take over" the legislative branch is precisely the type of "same hands" tyranny that Madison describes in Federalist 47

. . .The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, selfappointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny. . .

How often have we heard our so-called leaders invoke legalisms to justify their refusal to impeach? It's so frustrating. Impeachment is a political process, not a legal process. "Innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt" doesn't apply. In criminal law the objective standard is high because we value the sanctity of a citizen's civil rights more than we fear the risk of releasing a guilty person. In an impeachment, there is no objective standard. Each member judges by the standards they deem appropriate. If they value the sanctity of our constitution more then they fear the risk taking the privilege of office from an official that posed no real threat, they must apply a low standard.

Arrghhh. . .

end of rant.

[peacetalksforall]

2. I preach on DU about the hypocrisy of what we teach our children

and that we should stop doing it or admit that we do it.

It's a life dilemna in the U.S.
teaching that we have a vote, that our representatives represent us, that every citizen can grow up to be pResident, that you are innocent until proven guilty in a courtroom with fair judeges and juries, that you have a right to trial if accused of a crime...

What a burden we place on our kids - raise them in fantasy, then send them off to be killed for corporations and barons.

Kids see the phoniness if they are lucky enough to not be programmed with hate.

[demnan]

3. K&R - but wouldn't happen in my state

from the mouths of babes. I personally know a teacher who was fired in Faifax County Virginia, for, among other things, mentioning impeachment.

[Gabi Hayes]

4. THIS Mike Hebert? hahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa!!!!!!

http://www.ibrattleboro.com/article.php?story=20050719203432650&query=simmered+for+years

Hebert, apparently the same guy (?), called another member of the local cable TV board, an ASSHOLE! scroll all the way down.

wonder if he used that kind of rhetoric in school.....

[babylonsister]

5. Rec'd! Someone needs to send this to Pelosi; so simple. Do what's

right NOW, not wait for the sake of elections that we might not win anyway. Show some integrity.

[InternalDialogue]

6. Well done, young Americans.

:patriot:

[Gabi Hayes]

7. there's an underlying story here that's FASCINATING. Hebert is JUST like

the creeps he defends, and a community member, in the following link, describes him and his chums, who apparently have tried to take over the local community cable TV facility, as FASCISTS.

surprised

this is WELL worth a read, as it clearly follows the typical Republican playbook

http://www.ibrattleboro.com/article.php/20060121164833611

Former BCTV Board Betrayed the Community's Trust
Authored by: Tenacious on Saturday, January 21 2006 @ 06:29 PM EST

So Lynn Corum and her attorney husband took the memberships out of the BCTV office without permission of the BCTV board and in the process tried to stack the deck with their supporters to swing the vote in their favor?

This looks to be another page out of the Republican playbook. Dirty tricks Rove style. They didn't get away with it like Rove does because enough folks were paying attention to put a stop to it.

This report goes some distance in explaining how wacked out the board of BCTV got to be. Both Corum and Hebert are on the school board and have influence over the millions of dollars in the school budget. Bronson is on the planning commission.

Politics and ethics are rarely synonymous, but I think we expect more here. Betraying the trust of the BCTV members and the community and attempting to undermine one of our community organizations in that way is particularly sleazy.

Glad the dirty tricks failed and the ethically challenged board members were vanquished.

[John Q. Citizen]

39. No wonder Herbert is opposed to impeachment! He doesn't like accountability.

[blogslut]

8. Awesome school

And it's great that the local paper printed their letters.

[Discord]

9. I love VT,

Best decision I ever made moving here. :)

[wicket]

11. I grew up there

Left about 10 years ago for Baaaaahston, but my family still has a 500 acre dairy farm up there. I try to make it up as much as I can :D

[Discord]

43. I left Boston and moved here.

I guess it is some form of balance and attrition. ;)

[wicket]

51. Bwhahahahahaha

:) What part of VT do you live? My family's farm is in a tiny town in the Quechee lakes area.

[Discord]

54. I live in downtown Montpelier. n/t

[John Kerry VonErich]

31. Is it true VT. might secede from the union?

nt

[Discord]

44. If things keep on the path it is.

I think Vermonters are fairly fed up with Washington, and the direction this nation is headed.

[John Kerry VonErich]

47. I heard about some sort of mock vote

and 60% was in favor of seceding. I wonder how the currency would be like there afterwards.

[Discord]

48. I'm not sure on many of the details...

but the general principle of division from the US Gov. seems to be gaining steam. The fact that theres only one candidate that is worth supporting, but many consider him unelectable, doesn't help matters either.

Heres a place to start if your interested in finding out more.

http://www.vermontrepublic.org/

[John Kerry VonErich]

57. I didn't know there was secessionist that is in the running for governor.

nt

[DrZeeLit]

42. Me, too! Me, too! I ab-sooo-lute-ly LOVE Vermont!

Placing words on the feeling of living in Vermont, almost (almost) lessens the impact of waking here every morning to sweet clean air, melodic bird conversation, shades of green beyond Crayola's imagination, and civil people living in community -- neighbors, listeners, thinkers, doers.

I consider options. My entire family lives in California. I'm a 3rd generation CA native. My husband is the Vermonter, and even his family no longer resides here. The economics of life in Vermont can be difficult -- just about everyone I know works two jobs.

But when I consider moving back to California, I cringe. I cannot do it. The traffic alone would kill me. Not to mention the noise pollution, light pollution, and mind pollution.

Nope. I've been living here for six years and despite cold winters (which serve a PURPOSE -- allowing the body and mind to recharge and rest -- surprise! surprise) I am in LOVE with a state that: freed the slaves in 1777; declared war on Germany BEFORE the Congress did; doesn't have billboards; doesn't have a McDonald's in the capital city; provides Health Insurance for EVERY child under 18 (and if attending a Vermont college, covers those); began the trek to equality with civil unions; provides a day off for any citizen attending his or her Town Meeting (yes! towns still vote on budgets, item by item); gives us Patrick Leahy, Peter Welch, Bernie Sanders and Howard Dean; and continues to be the little state with the big heart.

I am proud to teach at one of the oldest colleges in Vermont.
The camaraderie between students, professors, and staff is fabulous -- well beyond any I experienced in over 20 years of teaching in CA.
I only hope I am able to serve for many years.

Bravo, Vermont!

[Discord]

46. Amen sistah!!!

It's a wonder in itself, but Vermont truly believes it can be a small state to lead the Nation. We DO what others only attempt to do.

My favorite things about Vermonts politics.

They refused to acknowledge the Patriot Act.
They refused to arrest and turn in illegal immagrants to the Gov.
They encourage every citizen to be a part of thier communities and governing.

[Gabi Hayes]

10. How can you top this?

''My class listened to Hebert first. He said that the people who wanted to impeach Bush and Cheney only had political reasons. He said that Bush lied about going to war but not under oath, so it is not an impeachable offense.''

[maddezmom]

18. you can't

:D

K&R for these fine students

[ThomWV]

12. "Bush is allowing people to torture captives. This may not seem like a big deal"

From a 7th grader. Chilling .....

[Tigress DEM]

13. I believe the Children ARE our future....

too verklempt to say more.

[Hissyspit]

14. LOL

George Benson's version over Whitney Houston's anyday!

:)

[chemenger]

15. Are you smarter than a 5th grader???

Unfortunately, for far too many citizens in this country, and way far too many politicians currently in office (including our own damn Democratic representatives) the answer is a resounding NO!

Stop f**king around and impeach the bastards now! Spare us intellegent citizens another 18 months of hell on earth under the Bushista regime.

[uppityperson]

19. Yes.

[chemenger]

16. Are you smarter than a 5th grader???

Unfortunately, for far too many citizens in this country, and way far too many politicians currently in office (including our own damn Democratic representatives) the answer is a resounding NO!

Stop f**king around and impeach the bastards now! Spare us intellegent citizens another 18 months of hell on earth under the Bushista regime.

[uppityperson]

20. Smarter than a 6th grader also,

[chemenger]

17. Are you smarter than a 5th grader???

Unfortunately, for far too many citizens in this country, and way far too many politicians currently in office (including our own damn Democratic representatives) the answer is a resounding NO!

Stop f**king around and impeach the bastards now! Spare us intellegent citizens another 18 months of hell on earth under the Bushista regime.

[uppityperson]

22. Don't you hate it when DU glitches and multiple posts are posted? I do.

I want congress to stop giving mrbush what he wants all the time. I want them to investigate the hell out of him. I don't see being able to impeach him in the next 18 months, but I do see them being able to stop him from doing more bs. With spines and a whole lot of courage. I hate politics, wish politicians would just do the job of representing those they are supposed to represent.

[rucky]

35. 5th graders don't triple post

:evilgrin:

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

21. Too bad the 'adults in charge' have lots less substance than these young ones.

Yeah,...too bad. :-(

[Gabi Hayes]

23. Hebert is on the school board, btw. I didn't see anything else in the

paper about this; nothing describing the event, other than what's at the link

did you read the links I have upthread about Hebert being nothing but a typcial Repub thief/bully?

pretty interesting local flavor

[MrPrax]

45. Yes...

Herbert seems like the type that only likes debates because it looks democratic-ish, he and his droogs already know they are right...

Last word to Dustin B.:

"... It is your duty, however, to listen to the other side, just like what Mike Hebert said "If you believe it is your duty to stand up, then you also have the responsibility to listen to the other side." Hebert thinks that George Bush is a good man and should not be impeached. I don't remember a lot of what he said because it was, in my opinion, very weak compared to Dan DeWalt.

As you can see, Dan DeWalt got through to me and changed my thoughts by telling me only the truth, and I want Bush to be impeached now that I know what he has been doing.

Dustin B is brighter than Congress!

[EFerrari]

24. Awesome! K&R Gives you hope!

[IndyOp]

25. This part is disturbing: "you can believe in what you want"

The first comment in the OP says, "The most important thing I learned from both of them was that you can believe in what you want."

We can and should have different opinions about the facts, but the facts are the facts and it is not okay to believe the facts you like and ignore the facts you don't.

Maybe I am reading too much into the kid's statement, but we have too much "everyone can believe what they want" going around today - at all ages.

[Hissyspit]

26. I think he just worded it clumsily.

I read it more as "People will have different perspectives on things and we must be tolerant of that fact." My writing skills weren't all that hot in the 7th grade, either. (Not that they're all that great now.)

[quiet.american]

28. I'd pretty much read it that way, too.

In the sense of, "you have the right to make up your own mind about things."

(I do see how it could be interpreted in another way, though.)

[ForeignSpectator]

29. Bush lied a nation into war

and the president should be able to lie to the nation. There it is, I mean, isn't that enough? The kids get it, the grown-ups have to tell me what else they know that the kids don't that makes them tolerate this...

[Hissyspit]

30. Welcome to DU!

:patriot:

:toast:

[John Kerry VonErich]

32. And the right's excuse....

They are too young to vote

[Senator]

33. K&R (Kids & Reality ... a WakeUp Call)

[Hissyspit]

34. .

[Cha]

36. You can expect the

kids to hear the truth from teachers in States like Vermont, and this is so heartwarming!

It got me to thinking, though, what about the teachers who have imbibed so much koolaid they spend 1/2 their life in the powder room? How do these "teachers" rationalize what bush has done to our country?

[rucognizant]

41. Kids can still see it!~

My grandkids live in a rural farming area in upstate NY. When I was VERY actively supporting Dean in 2004, my daughter requested that I NOT talk politics in front of the kids for fear they would get in trouble in school, most of the area, teachers included,
being Eisenhower Repugs , and my liberal family having come from Manhattan!
Well after the election..............the grandkids were bringing home from school, anti Bush songs ditties, quotes etc.They HAd learned from their schoolmates!
"Through the eyes of a child!"

[Catherine Vincent]

37. Kick!

:kick:

[orleans]

38. they weren't all like that. -- unfortunately there are little people drinking mommy's kool-aid

"I personally don't think President Bush and Vice President Cheney have committed treason, bribery, or high crimes or misdemeanors (impeachable offenses). They are just doing what they think is right. I believe their hearts are in the right place."
Mike M.

BAMS eighth-grader


"I would have to side with Mike Hebert. I agree that what the president has done was perhaps not the best thing, but it certainly isn't treason, bribery, or high crimes and misdemeanors. I think it is kind of crazy that our senators voted to impeach the president because he hasn't done anything that could get him removed from office. "

Samantha H.

BAMS eighth-grader

"Bush and Cheney are normal people just on the big stage. Everything they do is seen by everyone. He might have lied but he's trying to protect our country. His choice was war, which couldn't have been the best decision, but he did what he did. Normal people make mistakes. "

Jamie M.

BAMS seventh-grader

[Sherman A1]

40. Thanks for the link

I was having a discussion with a strong social conservative friend yesterday about education locally and in the country after he had heard a piece on the radio discussing the aspect of education designed to turn out a more regimented society designed for work in factories and such. At least that is what he said.... I will pass this on to him to add to our discussion.

[lonestarnot]

49. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

[Highway61]

50. Speaking on this subject

Bush invited Putin for a sleep-over at his parents home on Walker's Point, Kennebunkport, Maine this coming July 4th weekend. There is a LARGE protest being organized...here is the link if you are interested.

www.maineimpeach.org

The security will be TIGHT so getting INTO Maine will be difficult and perhaps long but leave early and spend a few days. I moved here from Jersey 9 years ago..My God it's beautiful, folks are genuine and the coastline is to die for...as for these school children, not surprised as MOST of Vermont is totally plugged in to what is going on...which is why they are attempting to secede.

K & R!

[Hissyspit]

52. Welcome to DU!

Now I want to move to Vermont or Maine. :(

:patriot:

:toast:

[Highway61]

53. Thankyou

However, The wages aren't great in Maine...but other things (like housing) is good on pricing. Bottom line...you can do anything you want if you put your mind to it. Except, I am having a bit of a problem with the boneheads in this administration...I can't STAND it. This bunch makes the Nixon administration look like a walk in the park. I feel at home here on DU. Reading for awhile then decided to join...pretty cool folks here...I don't feel so alone in my thinking.

[Hissyspit]

55. That's the best thing about this place. I've been here four years.

The conventional wisdom that develops here is always on the mark. Most everyone here was right about the administration way back in 2000, they were right about the corruption, they were right about WMD and they were right about where the war would go. People call bullshit on the bullshit pretty fast here.

The worst thing is it's a fairly open forum and anyone can join the fray and say almost anything, so it's easy to get your feelings hurt.

Develop a thick skin and stick around! Sorry you didn't find it sooner.

Great username, by the way.

[Catherine Vincent]

56. One last kick!

:kick: