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So I'm going on vacation at the end of July. I'm a bit worried about the no fly list...

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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 01:59 PM
Original message
So I'm going on vacation at the end of July. I'm a bit worried about the no fly list...
Why? I don't know. Just paranoia I guess, but it still lurks in the back of my mind.

Any of you worried about being on the no fly list?
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Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. No.
Although the last two times we flew, both of my daughters and I were pulled aside for 'additional searching'.

My husband has a debrillator so when he goes through, they just look at the card and wave him through.
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JAYJDF Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yeah, it might just be nerves over an ever increasing list
I really don't want to fly.
I don't want to condone the excessive personal invasions.
It's all a big scam.
But I too think about being on the list.
For who knows what reason.
Something I have written.
Someone overseas I have emailed.

It's such a crock.

Inlaws live in Anchorage and we live in a small town in Colorado.
Not enough time to enjoy a long drive.

Oh well.

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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think you can check to make sure you'll be ok.
Not sure where or how though. I was worried last time I flew but I checked-in
at one of those machines with my CC and I didn't have any problems at all.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. No.
I fly a lot and I've never had a problem.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
5. I've figured I'm on ever since they had one
First of all, I'm Muslim. Second of all, I've been a member of an environmental group and a peace group that has demonstrated and protested. When I heard about the No Fly list, I automatically assumed I was on it. Luckily, I haven't had to fly since.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Don't worry so much... I am in the same boat and travel
Edited on Tue Jun-19-07 02:27 PM by JCMach1
across the middle-east and europe regularly...

insh'allah you will be fine...
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. thanks
ever since my husband try and kill him over his environmental stand, we've been a bit paranoid.

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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. If you are worried, check it out
http://litigationcenter.bna.com/pic2/lit.nsf/id/BNAP-5XTL44?OpenDocument&PrintVersion=Yes

Also, other info:
<snip>
No Fly List
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The No Fly List contains the names of individuals who are not permitted to board a commercial aircraft for travel in the United States. There is also a selectee process by which individuals who meet certain criteria are set aside for additional screening.<1>

Contents
1 Controversy
2 Size
3 False positives and alleged misuses
4 DHS Traveller Redress Inquiry Process
5 ACLU Lawsuit
6 No fly lists in other countries
7 In the Media
8 See also
9 References
10 External links



Controversy
The No Fly List has raised civil liberties concerns, due in part to the potential for ethnic, religious, economic, political or racial profiling and discrimination. Particular concern has been raised about the use of credit reports in calculating the risk score. In response to the controversy, the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) stated it would not use a person's credit score to determine his/her risk score, and that it would comply with all rights guaranteed by the First and Fourth Amendments.

Stuart Taylor went on to explain the controversy; Government entities external to the U.S., such as the European Union, expressed concerns about allowing the CAPPS II proposal to be implemented within their respective borders. During the early testing of the No Fly List, and CAPPS II, the TSA privately requested airlines disclose massive amounts of private information about their passengers. Though intended only for testing, this action was likely a violation of the Privacy Act of 1974, which forbids the government from compiling secret databases on Americans. Though spokespeople from several major airlines initially denied these allegations, they later reneged and admitted they had disclosed the information, revealing they had not only lied to their own customers, but also to the government and the public. These admissions were followed by further admissions from the Transportation Security Administration and the United States Department of Homeland Security, revealing the government had inappropriately requested and used this information.

In the midst of this controversy, the Government Accountability Office of the U.S. Congress produced a critical report on the CAPPS II system. The report characterized the proposal as incomplete and seriously behind schedule, and noted that the TSA had failed to address "developmental, operational, and privacy issues identified by Congress". On July 14, 2004, TSA officials said CAPPS II was being pulled from consideration without proceeding to full testing. Critics have alleged that the TSA has merely chosen to start with a less controversial entry point they are calling the "Registered Traveler" program. They have also begun testing of another program called Secure Flight, which is supposed to solve some of the problems of CAPPS I while avoiding the privacy issues of CAPPS II.


Size
It is known that the size of the FBI/FAA list on September 11, 2001 was 16 names. By December 2001, the list had grown to 594 names, and a year later (December 2002), there were over 1,000 names. CBS reported on the 8 October 2006 edition of 60 Minutes that they had obtained a copy of the list dated March 2006 that contains 44,000 names.<2> According to the TSA, as of November 2005, 30,000 people in 2005 alone had complained their names were matched to a name on the list via the name matching software used by airlines.<3> Less commonly known is that the list, while very long, also includes many duplicates. Some are common misspellings and some are different dates of birth.
<MORE>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List


<snip>
Unlikely Terrorists On No Fly List
Steve Kroft Reports List Includes President Of Bolivia, Dead 9/11 Hijackers


(CBS) This segment was originally broadcast on Oct. 8, 2006. It was updated on June 7, 2007.

Anyone who has passed through an airport in the last five years and has been pulled aside for extra screening knows that the government and the airlines keep a list of people they consider to be security threats. Every time you check in at the ticket counter your name is run through a computer to make sure you are not on something called the "No Fly List." It's part of a secret government database compiled after 9/11 to prevent suspected terrorists from getting on airplanes. As correspondent Steve Kroft reports, if your name is on the list or even similar to someone on the list, you can be detained for hours.

It began as a project of the highest priority. In 2003, President Bush directed the nation’s intelligence agencies and the FBI to cooperate in creating a single watch list of suspected terrorists. A version of that list is given to the airlines and the Transportation Security Administration to prevent anyone considered a threat to civilian aviation from boarding a plane. The government won’t divulge the criteria it uses in making up the list or even how many names are on it. But in the spring of 2006, working with a government watchdog group called the National Security News Service, 60 Minutes was able to obtain a copy of the No Fly List from someone in aviation security who wanted us to see what the bureaucracy had wrought.

The first surprise was the sheer size of it. In paper form it is more than 540 pages long. Before 9/11, the government’s list of suspected terrorists banned from air travel totaled just 16 names; today there are 44,000. And that doesn’t include people the government thinks should be pulled aside for additional security screening. There are another 75,000 people on that list.

With Joe Trento of the National Security News Service, 60 Minutes spent months going over the names on the No Fly List. While it is classified as sensitive, even members of Congress have been denied access to it. But that may have less to do with national security than avoiding embarrassment.

Asked what the quality is of the information that the TSA gets from the CIA, the NSA and the FBI, Trento says "Well, you know about our intelligence before we went to war in Iraq. You know what that was like. Not too good."

"This is much worse," Trento argues. "It’s awful, it's bad. I mean you’ve got people who are dead on the list. You’ve got people you know are 80 years old on the list. It makes no sense."
<MORE>

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/05/60minutes/main2066624.shtml

<snip>
Passenger Complaints

Complaints forwarded by Members of Congress to TSA part 1 (592kb pdf), part 2 (600kb pdf), part 3 (493kb pdf)
Complaints sent to TSA Inquiry Management System (496kb pdf)

Emails sent to TSA (1.1mb pdf)
Complaint letters sent to TSA part 1 (524kb pdf), part 2 (624kb pdf)
TSA Contact Center complaint log, Nov. 2003-Dec. 2004
November 2003-January 2004 (248 kb pdf)
February 2004-April 2004 (636 kb pdf)
May 2004 (1.4 mb pdf)
June 2004-July 2004 (2.5 mb pdf)
July 2004-September 2004 (3.6 mb pdf)
September 2004-October 2004 (4 mb pdf)
October 2004-December 2004 (5.7 mb pdf)

The documents establish that the TSA administers two lists: a "no fly" list and a "selectee" list, which requires the passenger to go through additional security measures. The names are provided to air carriers through Security Directives or Emergency Amendments and are stored in their computer systems so that an individual with a name that matches the list can be flagged when getting a boarding pass. A "no fly" match requires the agent to call a law enforcement officer to detain and question the passenger. In the case of a Selectee, an "S" or special mark is printed on their boarding pass and the person receives additional screening at security. The TSA has withheld the number of names on each of the lists.

The watch list was created in 1990, with a list of individuals who have been "determined to pose a direct threat to U.S. civil aviation." This list was administered by the FBI before the Federal Aviation Administration and the TSA assumed full administrative responsibility in November 2001. The Transportation Security Intelligence Service (TSIS) currently serves as the clearinghouse for the addition of names to the lists. Since the TSA took over, the watch list "has expanded almost daily as Intelligence Community agencies and the Office of Homeland Security continue to request the addition of individuals to the No-Fly and Selectee lists." (TSA Watchlists memo) The names are approved for inclusion on the basis of a secret criteria. The Watchlists memo notes that "all individuals have been added or removed ... based on the request of and information provided, almost exclusively by ."
<MORE>

http://www.epic.org/privacy/airtravel/foia/watchlist_foia_analysis.html
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. So, you're worried that you won't be on the no-fly list?
Edited on Tue Jun-19-07 02:25 PM by Buzz Clik
That's easily remedied:

  • Dress like Osama, talk with an accent (any accent -- even a lisp will do), and buy a one-way ticket to anywhere.
  • Show up at the airport with no ticket, no i.d., and a really bad attitude.
  • Refuse to give the gate security folks your carry-on bags, and yell at them, "What's fucking wrong with you? It's not like I'm carrying a BOMB!!!"
  • Put a battery operated digital clock in your bag, glue one end of a couple of wires to the clock the stick the other end in a blob of clay. Hide it sloppily in your bag. When the x-ray lady says, "Whose bag is this?", start running as fast as you can with one hand inside your coat.
  • Get arrested for protesting the war.

Nothing to worry about. You'll be not flying in no time.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. I confess I'm a little surprised every time I fly and I'm not on it
because I'm not only a lefty online, I'm a lefty IRL, too.

However, they've made flying such a miserable experience that since I no longer do it for family emergencies, making other travel arrangements would be little hardship.

Unfortunately, I know of no way to know you're on the list without showing up at the airport and trying to go through security.
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RogueSpirit Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. My Ex was denied a flight once
we got a last minute flight to NYC. The thing is, her SSN has her full nameon it and on her Drivers license, she used her maiden name as her middle name. They denied her getting on the fight despite us pointing out that the last name on her SSN card was now the middle name on her Drivers License and that my last name and her last name were the same.

They told us that is we could provide a Birth certificate and a marriage certificate they would put us on a later flight. Fortunately we didn't live too far from the airport so we made the later flight, but it was a MAJOR PITA.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Every self-respecting American should be boycotting commercial
Edited on Tue Jun-19-07 02:43 PM by coalition_unwilling
air traffic, as I have been doing since November of 2001. Until the entire process is brought under serious judicial review, you enable fascism any time you fly commecial flights.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. YES!!!!
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. I have a lot of self respect but I also had a son going to Iraq
courtesy of the * Regime Stop Loss policy. :grr:

Sometimes people have to fly and fast!!
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-20-07 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Yes, I should have said "Except in case of family emergencies" -n/t
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RogueSpirit Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. well it may be a pain in the ass
but it's a necessary pain in the ass if you say want to go to a city 1200 miles away over a 3 day weekend. We took it in stride. No sense in getting all bitchy, they are doing their jobs and they are bound by the same rules we are. They let someone through with something they lose their job. They let someone on that's not supposed to be on, they lose their jobs. Like i said, it's a pain in the ass, but knowing it's going to happen, we can plan for it.
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. I decided to stop flying in July of 2001. It was an uneventful flight,
no problems, except they'd overbooked my original 6:00 flight out and I volunteered to take a later flight and got my voucher for a free ticket sometime within the next 6 mos.

But when I got on the Amtrak in St. Louis to go the rest of the way to my destination--I refused to take any "puddle jumper" flights after a scary, scary experience in 1987--the cars were new and spiffy, it was wonderful actually to see some scenery for once, and I decided that from then on I would take the train for any but emergency travel. And I have.

Flying just wasn't any fun any more, even before 9/11. I had started flying quite a bit in the late 60s/early 70s, and it was great then. By 2001 it sooo was not. It was more like taking the Greyhound--packed in like sardines, squalling brats, no service.

Oh, and when I tried to use my voucher to go home at Christmas, assuming that as long as I booked the flight within the six months period, and my flight out was also within the six months, it wouldn't matter than my return flight would be outside the six months?

Well, it did matter, as I was very snottily informed by more than one officious little prick, so unless I wanted to go and come back before Christmas--which was not possible given my work schedule--I was SOL and my voucher worthless.

So fuck 'em all, except maybe for JetBlue. I hear very good things about them.

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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
13. I don't think about it, I KNOW I am on the list--which is one of many reasons I prefer to drive-- at
least, until we have to start showing our papers at each state line!!
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
16. I fly places once or twice a year. If I'm not on the No-Fly List by now,
I don't think I ever will be. They already know how much I hate Bush if they watch my posts here, lol. Of course, I am still registered R so I won't have trouble at the polls - that may have thrown them off my trail....
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
19. You could always move here:
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
20. No. Don't worry. Unless your last name is Brown or Smith.
Edited on Tue Jun-19-07 04:21 PM by babylonsister
:yoiks:
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Ron Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-19-07 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. After posting all kinds of seditious and suspicious opinions on this board...
I flew across the country a couple of weeks ago and had dinner in the Capitol, so I guess maybe it's not as serious as I thought.
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