Why didn't the Bush administration just plant WMD in Iraq?

[RB TexLa]

I'm not talking about dropping a nuclear missile on the ground like a gun planted by a cop that shot someone, but evidence of WMD wouldn't be too hard to plant?

[LSK]

1. I read a theory that Brewster Jennings foiled the plan in Turkey

Google Brewster + Jennings + Turkey

[WinkyDink]

6. Link to whistleblower article:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_12-8-2003_pg1_9

[LSK]

7. maybe Valery Plame knows about this and is being sworn to secrecy

And thats why the right is so damned determined to smear her and her husband as liars because they fear she might talk about this.

[Aviation Pro]

18. This is the 10000 lb gorilla in the room....

...Brewster Jennings not only monitored the movement of nuclear material they were instrumental in stopping the movement. The systems that they set up under Plame's leadership were worth billions of dollars. Spies are executed during wartime not for the lives they have compromised, but for the resources that are destroyed (remember, billions). God help this whole cabal if the truth ever comes out. (And I wouldn't hang my hat on Him giving a rat fuck).

[BlooInBloo]

2. The number one rule: quit while you're ahead.

[Beetwasher]

3. They Probably Tried To And Fucked It Up

Who knows?

It's been speculated that the whole Plame affair was related in some ways to a botched attempt (or busted attempt) to plant WMD.

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. That's what I had heard. Tried and stymied

[NewJeffCT]

10. Back in early to mid 2004

There were reports in foreign media about supposed US attempts to plant some old Russian made WMD in Iraq.

It was not the most credible of foreign news sources, but I don't think anybody was surprised when the story surfaced.

[NewJeffCT]

4. I had thought they were doing it

and were having Judy Miller lead the charge... but, supposedly somebody missed their orders and the trucks they were riding on got hit by friendly fire.

[KansDem]

8. I wondered about this as well...

My thoughts, for what their worth:

1) BushCo thought the invasion of Iraq would be a cakewalk. They thought they'd be in and out in no time and Americans, who always love a winner, wouldn't care that no WMDs were found.

2) I've always wondered if the Plame outing was crafted to put a stop to a covert intel operation that would reveal no WMDs in Iraq. I know the official excuse is that it was to discredit her husband, but what if Valerie Plame was on to something that would blow the WMD lie out of the water, like catching BushCo in the act of planting WMDs?

Just my $0.02.

[RogueSpirit]

9. I had a co worker send out an email a few years back about ones they found

Something about finding some shells with type of gas in them. I don't remember much about it, all I remember is that it cause a big discussion/argument in our office when he sent it. Was that bogus?

[LSK]

11. they did

They were remnants from the Iran/Iraq war.

They still find bombs from WW2 in Europe, should we invade Germany again because of that?

[RogueSpirit]

13. That all depends, are they our bombs or theirs

[HawkerHurricane]

23. Yes.

We still find in Germany (all over Europe, actually) unexploded bombs dropped by the Allies, AND German weapon caches. Supposedly there are a few lakes in East Germany where they dumped containers of nerve gas, which have leaked and killed the fish.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. They found abandoned shells from the Iran-Iraq war

With chemical weapons so degraded as to be non-functional. These were buried in the desert, not poised to be fired (in their dozens) at the Kuwaiti princes. So that email was a bit of desperation by right wing liars and douchebags.

It's a bit like accusing your neighbor of being the biggest marijuana dealer on the West Coast and screaming AHA! when you find a half-smoked joint in his car ashtray. Only fools see the "gas" shells

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. Remember the anthrax?

They figured out rather quickly that it came from an American source.

They would have had the same problem if they tried to plant WMDs.

[Peace Patriot]

20. Not if they got them from ANOTHER source (say, with an Iranian signature)?

Manucher Ghorbanifar--the notorious Iran-Contra arms dealer--was present at the meetings in Rome in late '01 with the head of Italian intelligence and several people on the Pentagon payroll, including rabid Neocon Michael Ladeen, where many suspect the Niger/Iraq nuke forgeries were concocted. And there is a very strange story in a Congressman's book about Ghorbanifar trying to lure the CIA to a site in Iraq where he said a group trying to take Iraqi nuke weapons across the border into Iran suffered radiation injuries. Ghorbanifar had long ago been tagged a liar and unreliable by the CIA and as soon as they discovered it was him, they knew it was a scam. (Also, the contact evaporated.) I've always wondered what Ghorbanifar was up to with that fake story. Sussing out the good guys in the CIA? Trying to fool them, and get them involved in a fake story? Testing out routes of travel and information?

Could the Bushites have gotten away with planting WMDs in Iraq?

Don't forget that the Bush Junta had a death grip on the corporate newsstream at the time (only slightly less now; then it was total), and they had ejected all the UN weapons inspectors (objective parties), had "embedded" select reporters with select units, with most of the reporters holed up in the Palestine Hotel (which the Bush/U.S. forces blew a corner off of "by accident"), and Baghdad was in chaos, deliberately ordered by Rumsfeld, in my opinion (he said: freedom = the freedom to loot), and the country really hasn't stopped being in chaos ever since. Finally, they had NYT WMD propagandist Judith Miller traveling with the U.S. troops who were supposedly "hunting" for the WMDs that they all knew weren't there (--according to her, with a special "embed" contract signed by Donald Rumsfeld, which she seemed to take as authority to direct the local commanders here and there). (They were very annoyed with her.)

Say, they had "found" WMDs that Bush black ops had planted there. How close do you think any objective weapons experts would have gotten to those weapons? What information would reporters have had to rely on, to try to verify the claim? What do you think the war profiteering corporate news monopolies would have done with anyone's doubts about their provenance? WHO could have forced the Bushites to verify their claims? We can't even force them to verify U.S. elections.

They can make up any old shit they want, and the corporate news monopolies lap it up. The most they ever do--on baldfaced lies--is a he said/she said article. And, in the case of "he said" on phony, planted WMDs, "he" (whoever questioned it) would soon be fragged, or kidnapped and beheaded, or found dead under a tree near his home, with one slit wrist (minor artery), having bled to death all night in the rain, as happened to the British weapons expert David Kelly, the same week that Valerie Plame and the B/J WMD counter-proliferation network were outed. That was a deadly game--the invasion and occupation of Iraq--with very, very high stakes. How long could they keep the newstream pumped with WMDs? How long before the 56% of the American people who opposed this war in Feb. '03, just before the invasion, would turn into the 70% opposed today? How long before we caught onto the Diebold/ES&S "trade secret" vote counting scam? How long before the Bush Junta's entirely bad, entirely greedy, entirely illegitimate motives were exposed?

Don't expect Plame to ever say anything about this. CIA agents are sworn to secrecy for life (unlike Presidents, Vice Presidents, and their chief aides, who can freely blab the nation's secrets, and out its secret agents, with impunity). But that doesn't mean we can't make some educated guesses.

I think there is good reason to suspect that there was such a scheme--to plant the weapons--that it got foiled (possibly by someone in the B/J network, whose job it was to stop illicit weapons movements), and that the outing of Plame (7/14/03) , Kelly's murder (7/18/03), and the outing of the entire network (four days later, 7/22/07, in a second Novak column) are all connected to it.

[alstephenson]

24. Yes, Judith Miller was to be there when they "found" the WMDs..

Great post, Peace Patriot. I remember reading a similar post a few months ago (it may have also been written by Peace Patriot). It all makes so much sense - scary as shit, but I really think this is what happened and why Valerie Plame was outed.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

27. I wish this had greater exposure...

An excellent piece of journalism Peace Patriot.

[KansDem]

14. Perhaps the missing White House emails will hold the clue...(nt)

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. It would be impossible to plant and get away with

This stuff isn't floating around on black markets, contrary to scare-mongering hysteria peddled by the defense industry. Any investigation by a non-implicated body would very quickly demonstrate the falsity of the planted weapons.

[Jim Warren]

19. Agreed

If it were easy they might have. Putting one over on the various foreign intelligence
agencies operating in that region, including Russian satellite intelligence would have made it impossible.

[Peace Patriot]

21. Impossible? Says you. Please see my post above. How close do you think

any "non-implicated body" would have gotten to Bush Junta-planted WMDs? And, if they had done the impossible, and had inspected Bush-planted WMDs, whose side do you think our war profiteering corporate news monopolies would have taken, and how quickly do you think they would have fuzzed up the issue beyond ever finding out the truth?

You also exclude the possibility of a STUPID plot to plant the weapons? Has the Bush Junta ever been known to do anything in a stupid, ham-handed, ill thought out, incompetent way? Hm-m, I can think of a couple of things. They can't even get their goddamned oil contracts signed--bought with lives of half a million people, and a U.S. deficit unto the 7th generation. I think we've learned that NeoCons are more than capable of stupidity and hair-brained schemes.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. A stupid plot would have been discovered

Since it wasn't, there was none, and none attempted.

As for a smart plot:

The Bushies do not have the power to stop other nations from gathering intelligence on their own accord.

It is too unpredictable. If you do it and the Russians see it happening, they suddenly have you by the short-hairs. And the Bushies couldn't be assured that the Russians, or the French, or the goddamn Norwegians, wouldn't see it happening. So, they didn't attempt it.

It's that simple.

You act as if it's relatively easy to "plant" stockpiles of weapons. It's not. Fake weapons? Too anticipated. The UN would demand access, and then you'd have to publicly deny them, discrediting your very risky efforts. It's not just dumb. It's dumb beyond dumb.

[Peace Patriot]

28. "A stupid plot would have been discovered." By whom?

Who would have had access to Bush-planted WMDs that had been "found" by U.S. troops and then foot-high banner-headlined in the NYT, and blared 24/7 on TV, all channels, all the time, with rolling thunder music, and special glittery gold logos? "THE. WEAPONS. OF. MASS. DESTRUCTION. IN. IRAQ!!!" I can see it now. And some little weeny scientist shunted off to Uzbekistan (where the form of torture is to boil dissenters in oil) screaming to last, "But the atomic signature was..." Glub-glub.

"Since it wasn't, there was none, and none attempted." How do you know this?

"As for a smart plot:"

"The Bushies do not have the power to stop other nations from gathering intelligence on their own accord."

I don't know, there are some pissed off investigators in Italy who were following a certain Islamic cleric--gathering intel, and building a case--until the FBI swooped in and arrested the target and whisked him away, completely blowing the investigation. And you don't think they were doing this in Baghdad as the U.S./Bush boot came down--keeping other nations from "gathering intelligence on their own accord"?

"It is too unpredictable. If you do it and the Russians see it happening, they suddenly have you by the short-hairs."

Don't you remember what happened to the Russian convoy out of Baghdad, as the U.S. invaded? They got shot up by U.S. forces. How could the Russians then "see it happening"?

"And the Bushies couldn't be assured that the Russians, or the French, or the goddamn Norwegians, wouldn't see it happening. So, they didn't attempt it."

The French and the Norwegians weren't in Iraq, nor was anyone else, of the western powers, with significant intel capability or forces, except the Brits. And we now how reliable they were on honest intel. The Brits controlled the Basra port (and, if there was such a plot, were likely in on it).

"It's that simple." I'm sorry, but it's not simple.

"You act as if it's relatively easy to 'plant' stockpiles of weapons. It's not. Fake weapons? Too anticipated. The UN would demand access, and then you'd have to publicly deny them, discrediting your very risky efforts. It's not just dumb. It's dumb beyond dumb."

"The UN would demand access." And John Bolton would say, "stuff it up your ass." And that would be that.

I gotto laugh at your relying on the UN to expose Bushite deception on WMDs. They had a real successful time with the U.S. Senate, didn't they?

"...you'd have to publicly deny them..." And you think that would be a problem for Bushites? Ahem, remember the "16 words"?

"...discrediting your very risky efforts." Discredit? Shame? Remorse? Accountability? Truth? Are we talking about the same junta?

"It's not just dumb. It's dumb beyond dumb." Well, I have to say that that characterizes everything the Bush Junta has done--"dumb beyond dumb"--except I think there is more "method" in their "madness" than many folks do. They're still in power, and still raking billions of our future tax dollars into Bush Cheney's South American expense account, now compliments of the Democratic Party leadership. And they're not in jail yet. Although we're all hoping that Libby will set the first precedent. But "dumb beyond dumb" in the bigger sense, of karma.

And hubris.

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. This is a pointless exercise

No WMD were discovered. Were any planted? Who cares. It's all speculation.

Why wouldn't they plant them: Because it is extremely difficult and too risky.

You don't need any further explanation, and this back and forth reeks of parlor game. I ain't playin'...

[Peace Patriot]

30. "Were they planted? Who cares." One reason to care is that this could be the thread

that unravels Plamegate. Another is that is that it makes sense, as a Part 2, to the Niger/Iraq nuke forgeries mystery. Another is that there were reports about a foiled effort to plant WMDs in Iraq that met with "friendly fire" and another about Red Cross boxes with WMDs in them, at the Basra port. Yet another is David Kelly's very suspicious death, in the middle of the Plame-B/J outings. His discovery of, or knowledge of, such a plot (to plant the weapons) would be a motive for his murder. And then there are other odd events like the Ghorbanifar story, and the Rome meetings. We certainly have reason, as the citizens of this country, to want to know what our government has been up to, and we have a right to know it. And there is reason to care from a humanistic point of view--to improve the library of human knowledge. If the Bushites were not just yacking up a storm about all those WMDs in Iraq, and lying through their teeth, but were also trying to make their lies come true, to justify their heinous crime of unjust war, then it adds to the sum of human knowledge of dictatorial, unaccountable, criminal, secretive, undemocratic government. They will stand out in those pages of our history anyway--but the lengths they might have gone to, to get those Iraqi oil contracts signed, and to turn the U.S. into a fascist state, needs to be fully known.

It took people many years to put together all the pieces of how Hitler came to power in Germany. It is a cautionary tale. And if this piece fits--and proves out--it will add to the lessons of history regarding tyrannical power, and perhaps unbury some heroes, and reveal some heartening facts, as to the limits of such power, and how such power is, or can be, foiled.

No WMDs were found. Yet they had prepped the American people and the world, to an intense degree of anticipation, that they would be found. Why? A strategic P.R. mistake? Or were they foiled? Is this a lesson of manipulation of the newsstream only? Or something else? I find these and other such questions about the Bush Junta, and Plamegate, very interesting, and I hope we one day know the answers. It is astonishing to me that someone would say they don't care about it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

31. In one post you countenance utter incompetence only to deny it when inconvenient

Why did they press the case on WMD? Because it was convenient, fit in with a UN legitimation strategy (that was, in fact, foiled, openly), and scared the shit out of people. And because they really believed that Saddam had some residual that could be held up later as justification. They knew it wasn't dangerous, but it wouldn't matter then. It would be trumpeted. But not even that small residual materialized, so they were left with their dick in the wind and no chance for redemption there (for reasons enumerated in the previous posts). THey were far too incompetent to pull off a complex operation such as planting WMD wit that level of scrutiny, and - to their credit - they were at least competent enough to recognize their incompetence (a rather rare and fortuitous gift with this bunch).

As for the rest of it, there is no connection to Plame, which was just criminal malice on the part of the Bushies, but petty malice nonetheless. All the Plame-WMD connection stories are so much fluff when you look into them. The Niger forgeries were part of the initial sales campaign, a convenience at best. Nobody ever took them seriously except for extremely stupid Americans and Christopher Hitchens. The so-called foiled attempts at planting WMD is nonsense, and pretty typically unsourced in your post. I know this is hard to grok, but the explanation for these "great Mysteries" and supposedly world-historical events is actually pretty mundane. The WMD was a rhetorical convenience given the policy goals. That they didn't turn up AT ALL is an extremely delicious irony, but portends no deeper meaning. The Niger forgeries were a rhetorical convenience, and the Plame business was pure spite and intimidation, and remarkably ham-handed at that. You said earlier that I don't assume stupidity. Far from it. I absolutely count on it. Where you see giant plots, I see the usual stupidities: the Bushies are a densely stupid bunch, stupid and spiteful and incompetent, and only moderately cunning. They were too stupid to understand that ALL the WMD's were gone, but cunning enough to understand that WMD was a good sales point domestically. They were too stupid to plant WMD, but cunning enough to know that they were too stupid to plant them. And that's the long and short of it.

[aquart]

17. We're all pretty sure they really really tried.

But they screwed that up, too.

[Rosemary2205]

25. Ya, they tried. The dead English guy messed it all up.

Before they suicided him. -- by then the window of opportunity was gone.

[GeorgeGist]

26. Does the name Valerie Plame ...

ring a bell?

[Aristus]

32. They would have screwed that up, too.

This administration can't take a dump without spewing shit all over the place.

:hurts:

[Patsy Stone]

36. Exactly.

It amazes me how bad they are at all of this, and how many people bought it all. Paging P.T. Barnum, Mr. Barnum. Please pick up the white courtesy phone.

[leftofthedial]

33. they tried at least twice and were thwarted

once by Brewster Jennings

and once by the Brits and a Brit reporter in Basra

[LeftHander]

34. They tried.....nt

[NNN0LHI]

35. Because there were high resolution satellites parked over Iraq watching for just that

http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2004_07-08/IraqiWeaponsSites.asp

UN: Iraqi Weapons Sites Looted
Paul Kerr

July/August 2004

Since the fall of Saddam Hussein’s regime, sites associated with Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs have been destroyed, and Iraqi missile engines have turned up in Europe, according to a May 28 report from the UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC). The report states that “recent satellite imagery” shows that a number of sites in Iraq containing equipment and materials that could be used to produce illicit weapons “have been either cleaned out or destroyed.” snip

The report echoes an April letter from International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Director-General Mohamed ElBaradei to the UN Security Council. ElBaradei wrote that commercial satellite imagery revealed “extensive removal of equipment and, in some instances…entire buildings” from Iraqi nuclear facilities. The IAEA had a mandate similar to UNMOVIC’s, but limited to Iraq’s nuclear-related sites. (See ACT, May 2004.)

[Rex]

37. Because they didn't want a peaceful solution in Iraq.

Either way, back in 1996 they planned on how to slice up the Middle East and serve it on a platter to the warlords who can afford it. Why, sells are up for bombs and ammo! More planes and ships are needed!

They also knew that gas prices were going to go down and so they needed this war to keep them way up their in price.

A lot of other shit too, massive fucking over going on, huge!

[lpbk2713]

38. They probably did, or at least tried.

But you know how they can't do anything right. Some locals probably found them before the imbedded journalists 'stumbled' over them and sold them to the highest bidder. :rofl: :rofl: