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The Dilemma of Ari's Alienation (Plame Thread #4)

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 10:30 AM
Original message
The Dilemma of Ari's Alienation (Plame Thread #4)
{1} "According to Josh Marshall, a key sentence was cut out of the Gellman WaPo piece last night, but is still available on Nexis: ‘On July 12, the day Cheney and Libby flew together from Norfolk, the vice president instructed his aide to alert reporters of an attack launched that morning on Wilson’s credibility by Fleischer, according to a well-placed source’." – Ari Fleischer is the Third Man?; Jane Hamsher; FireDogLake; 10-30-05.

While we wait for reports on the opening statements in the Scooter Libby trial, I thought it would be fun to take a look back at the role that Ari Fleischer played in the Plame scandal. There seems to be a possibility that he will play a significant role in the trial, and it is fair to say that there has been some controversy over what Fleischer told investigators.

For example, a 7-18-05 Bloomberg report stated, "On the flight to Africa, Fleischer was seen perusing the State Department memo on Wilson and his wife, according to a former administration official who was also on the trip." However, on 7-23-05, the New York Times reported, "Mr. Fleischer told the grand jury that he never saw the document, a person familiar with the testimony said …."

Who to believe? Obviously, we cannot trust the White House. If we could, we wouldn’t be having this trial. It is clear that Mr. Fitzgerald is going to be presenting information to the jury – and hence, to the American people – that tells the story of the Office of the Vice President’s operation against Joseph Wilson and Valerie Plame to an extent that it has not previously been told to the public.


{2} "The tensions between the White House and the CIA had been rising steadily in the months before the Iraq invasion, as CIA analysts complained about evidence being distorted or ignored and the White House pushed back with complaints about the quality of the intel they were getting. ‘I know the analyst who was subjected to withering questioning on the Iraq - al-Qaeda links by Libby with the Vice President sitting there,’ says a CIA analyst. ‘So I think there was an anger at the CIA for not getting it and being on board. The political side of the administration was pissed at the CIA’." – TIME; 7-25-05; page 29.

Let’s briefly review the set-up within the White House, as it pushed for an invasion of Iraq. For our discussion, we’ll start by noting there are two main offices: that of the president, and that of the vice president. The president gets "intelligence" from a wide range of sources, including the CIA. In this administration, the vice president has relied upon what Joseph Wilson described as "a government cult with cells in most of the national security system. Among those cells are the secretive Office of Special Plans in the Department of Defense (reportedly now disbanded) and a similar operation in the State Department that is managed in the office of Under Secretary for Disarmament John Bolton." (The Politics of Truth; Joseph Wilson; page 432)

The White House Iraq Group (WHIG) promoted the administration’s positions in the media. It coordinated efforts between the OVP, the OSP, and the Office of the President. It used methods that are known as "perception management" in order to "sell" the war. One example stands out: on Sunday, September 8, 2002, the New York Times had a front-page story about Iraq’s WMD programs. It involved aluminum tubes the administration claimed were part of a sinister WMD delivery system. The story, co-authored by Judith Miller, had been planted by none other than Scooter Libby.

The WHIG played this on the Sunday morning talk shows. VP Cheney was on Meet the Press, asking, "Did you see the story in the New York Times?" Colin Powell did much the same on Fox News Sunday; Richard Meyers did his thing on "This Week…"; and Condi Rice played the lie with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer.

In a wonderful essay titled, "Chris Matthews and the Power of Repetition," Ariana Huffington wrote about how Matthews exposed the WHIG tactic by repeatedly reporting on the method they used: plant the story, then have White House officials say, "Did you see this?" On a 10-19-05 program, Matthews told Frank Rich that it was a classic "alley-oop" play.

Now let’s apply that alley-oop strategy to the Plame scandal.

{3} "The next day, Libby told then White House press secretary Ari Fleischer that Wilson’s wife worked at the CIA and added that this was a fact not widely known – dropping, perhaps, an invitation to Fleischer to leak it to a friendly reporter." – TIME; 11-7-05; page 37.

On page 336 of his book, Joseph Wilson focuses on the role that Ari Fleischer played in the White House’s response to his New York Times op-ed. Fleischer was among the officials who was going on a trip to Africa with President Bush. Wilson notes, "Ari Fleischer, the president’s press secretary, was planning to leave the White House after the current trip in order to set up his own communications shop …. I am not sure his performance during his last week with the White House would have inspired anybody to hire him."

In an article on the "23 Administration Officials Involved in Plame Scandal" on Think Progress, it is noted that Fleischer was "among (the) first government officials to criticize Wilson. " His attempts to "spin" the Wilson story began during a July 12, 2003 press conference held at The National Hospital in Abuja, Nigeria. He refers to Wilson as a "lower-level official," and said Wilson made "flawed and incomplete statements." (Newsday; 3-6-04) He also hinted that Wilson’s op-ed had obscured the truth:

Fleisher: The President’s larger message has not been obscured …

Q: You just said it was being obscured. You said there’s a larger truth here that’s being missed.

Fleischer: Yes, but the larger truth – the larger truth being missed this week …. I can say there is an important bigger picture here …. The discussion was, the CIA needs to explain what its role was in this….

The transcript of this press conference was subpoenaed by Mr. Fitzgerald. It is interesting to note that it was pulled from the White House’s web site at one point, but later replaced. (Newsday; 3-6-04) It can be found on their web site as "Press Gaggle with Ari Fleischer" for july 12, 2003


{4} "The White House lied. George W. Bush lied. Dick Cheney lied. Donald Rumsfeld lied. Ari Fleischer, perhaps predictably, lied. " – Bush’s Worst Enemy; William Rivers Pitt; TruthOut; 12-30-03

The June 10, 2003 State Department memo on the Wilson trip to Niger was faxed to Colin Powell. It would reportedly be passed around White House officials on Air Force One on bush’s trip to Africa. During his investigation, Mr. Fitzgerald was interested in who read the memo. And, interestingly, he was equally interested in which White House officials who were not along on the trip to Africa had access to the memo.

"According to sources close to the investigation, Fitzgerald seemed most interested in whether officials who stayed at the White House while the President was in Africa also had the memo that week, when the first known calls to reporters took place. Details of the memo, if not the memo itself, may have been shared with one or more White House officials well before Wilson’s article appeared. Rove and I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney’s chief of staff, have told prosecutors they had never seen the document, according to sources familiar with their statements." – TIME; 7-25-05; page 28.

Newsweek reported that Fleischer "was sent out to trash the Wilson op-ed. ‘Zero, nada, nothing new here,’ he said. Then, on a long trip to Africa, Fleischer and Bartlett prompted clusters of reporters to look into the bureaucratic origins of the Wilson trip. How did the spin doctors know to cast that lure?" (7-25-05; page 30)

That’s one of the "mysteries" the trial should answer. And it brings us back, full circle, to part of that sentence that Jane Hamsher recognized was one of the most important keys to the case: "the vice president instructed his aide to alert reporters of an attack launched that morning on Wilson’s credibility by Fleischer…"
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. K & R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. A review of
the "opening statement" of Patrick Fitzgerald can be found on FireDogLake now. It looks good.

Are other DUers reading it? What do you think?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. YES love the timing!
Edited on Tue Jan-23-07 11:12 AM by seemslikeadream
You can't learn something startling on Thursday that you give out on Tuesday.

Fitz' voice is shaking some. There's a powerpoint with dates.

Fitz is saying that this is just a heads up, not to worry about all the names.

January 23, President Bush delivered SOTU.

This SOTU was especially important. Are we going to war, should we be going to war. Part of that case was that Iraq was trying to get WMD, including nuclear weapons.

The 16 words. (UP on a powerpoint screen!!!)

Following SOTU, the war began.





I'm waiting to hear the new 16 words on Iran tonight

Schoomaker testifing today!

Petraeus testifing today!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. No surprise that WaPost would leave out these little damaging bits.
They can't spin it completely to protect BushInc, but still do what they can for them.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. The WP keeps trying ...
to help the administration. Not all of their reporters. But some folks there do. Perhaps it is the editors.

I don't have anything handy to quote from, but the Washington Post sometimes adds little lies to reports, which are then repeated in other papers. An example was found in the neocon/AIPAC espionage case; it took almost a month to get them to print a "correction." The lie had already been spread ....

They've done a similar thing in saying that Mr. Fitzgerald has said that prosecuting Scooter is the last part of his investigation of the Plame scandal. Actually, he has not commented to reporters, beyond the October 28, 2005 press conference. He has not said that he either will or will not continue to investigate the case, or if he will or will not prosecute anyone else. The closest comment was the one about the sand being thrown in the umpire's eyes. This trial may clear the umpire's vision ....
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. WaPost has also been known as 'spook central' for some in the news biz.
They don't seem to care - they make money with GOP administrations. No Child Left Behind made them big $$$.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. So what odds are you giving that Ari falls on his sword at the trial?
He's screwed if he tells the truth (no more lucrative contracts for him in DC!) and he's screwed if he doesn't tell the truth (there are other players out there who won't lie so if Ari lies, he's toast in the courtroom).

Rock meet hard place. What do you think? Truth or lies for Ari? Clearly the WH has thrown him under the bus but if he's trying to make it on his own in DC, I can't imagine he's in a comfortable place right now.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. While I do not
think Ari will be this scandals' John Dean, I do think he will testify in a manner that damages both Libby and Cheney.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Firedoglake just reported from Fitz's opening statements that Ari will testify against Libby
It looks as though Ari was the first one Libby got on board from what I can tell and that Ari won't be saving Libby's ass at the trial. Cathie Martin will be secondary.... Sorry typing fast while I refresh the FDL page.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Yep.
Martin was on AF2, when Cheney and Libby discussed how to deal with Wilson in the press. She would normally have handled the press, but Cheney made a decision to put Libby in charge.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. Fitzgerald says Russert is going to testify
that Libby lied.

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Radio_Lady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
109. Wow! H20 Man! Your blog is amazing... the research you've done over the years is...
fascinating.

Thanks for posting.

Warm regards,

Radio Lady in Oregon
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. You are most welcome!
I always like hearing from people in Oregon. My normal brother lives in Corvalis, and he always tells me that it is one of the most progressive communities in the nation.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. Fitz's narrative in opening statements
will be narrowly drawn with a focus on witness credibility. There will be a number of people who change their stories to Scooter's detriment because they do not want to be charged with perjury and obstruction. Meanwhile, The Wilsons' lawyer is getting foundational information for their lawsuit so people like Ari are forced to put their own self preservation before any other political considerations. Cannot wait to see Fitz's opening in its entirety.

:popcorn:
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
6. Ari like a town crier


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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
7. Fitz's opening statement coming up on Firedoglake now!
Going after the OVP. Cathie Martin right in the middle of it.

http://www.firedoglake.com/
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Cathie Martin
I have a feeling about her, maybe a very important player in all of this
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. This is great!
I think that this trial is going to expose the country to the crimes of the OVP that DUers have discussed for years.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Looks like Fitz
is covering the whole chronology in his statements.

Libby is so screwed.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Oh Happy Days
Edited on Tue Jan-23-07 11:21 AM by seemslikeadream
Can't get this song out of my head today

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on4nFUY8GEk
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Fitz is bringing it and he starts with the press, OVP
Cathie Martiin a timeline, the 16 words and then shows how obsessed they were with notes and shaping Tenet's statement to take the fall. A pattern of behavior - bring on Edwin Hawkins! Oh Happy Day! :)
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. This is just breathtaking.
:bounce:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Indeed, it is.
I think Mr. Fitzgerald is going to expose things that DUers have long suspected, but that the general public will find shocking.

I have heard that President Bush was depressed at the reaction to his "surge" speech. His supporters had hoped that the state of the union speech would give him a chance to get back on track, and improve his mood. Little did they realize that the opening statements would take place today.

As Martin Luther King, Jr said on March 25, 1965:
" I Know you are asking today, 'How long will it take?' I come to say to you this afternoon however difficult the moment, however frustrating the hour, it will not be long, because truth crushed to earth will rise again.
"How long? Not long, because no lie can live forever.
"How long? Not long, because you still reap what you sow.
"How long? Not long, because the arm of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice."
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. moral universe is long but it bends toward justice
Oh happy day, my friend, oh happy day



"How long? Not long, because no lie can live forever.
"How long? Not long, because you still reap what you sow.
"How long? Not long, because the arm of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice."
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Are you watching MSNBC?
They are NAILING Cheney. It is intense. Reminds me of the infamous Plame Threads.

Enjoy this day in American History.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #24
128. Thank you for the wonderful Martin Luther King quotation!
Brings tears to my eyes!

Here's to you, Rev. King!

Thanx.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. From MSNBC...
Edited on Tue Jan-23-07 11:51 AM by myrna minx
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16770023

No memory aide from judge in Libby trial

snip

Motive to be alleged
Fitzgerald is also expected to explain something that’s not in the indictment but is key to the case: what he sees as the motive.

Defense attorneys deny he had a motive and plan to say so to jurors. Libby wasn’t charged with the leak and wasn’t the source for syndicated columnist Robert Novak’s article outing Plame. Why, they ask, would Libby lie?

If Fitzgerald is to make his case, he’ll need to answer that question in a way that convinces jurors. In court last week, Fitzgerald briefly touched on his explanation.

He said Libby feared political embarrassment and worried he might lose his job for discussing classified information with reporters. President Bush originally threatened to fire anyone who disclosed such information so, even though Libby wasn’t Novak’s source, Fitzgerald said Libby had a reason to lie.


I'm interested to see if Fitz is going to pursue this motive. *scratches head*
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. They just said
on MSNBC that this puts Cheney just a notch above Agnew as the "worst vice president in American history." Agnew's family should be insulted!
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. The words "lie" and "perjury"
are about to make a long-awaited comeback. I haven't heard either since about, oh, 1999 or early 2000. :D
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. Yep.
The information about Cheney telling Tenet to take "full blame" is also explosive evidence of a cover-up at the highest levels within the White House.

Reminds me of Watergate.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. I just cannot believe that this is finally happening.
It is now obvious that Tenant's Medal of Freedom was just a quid pro quo. This administration hands those out like tic-tacs to their own players. It's so shameful.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
59. Be sure to watch the MSNBC video!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16770023


lots of damning evidence about Cheney


Prosecutor: Cheney deeply involved in CIA leak
Jan. 23: Prosecutors revealed that Vice President Cheney was much more deeply involved in the leak of CIA agent Valerie Wilson's identity than previously known. Hardball's David Shuster reports.
video is 5 minutes
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Thank you!
I think I need smelling salts. I can't believe this is being reported.:rofl:
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. There is a 2nd video
at the same MSNBC link with Jonathan Alter reporting
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Thank you! I hope Alter will be on MSNBC with Keith tonight. n/t
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. and I hope David Shuster is on tonight too
to give us the latest updates with the Libby trial!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Yep.
Also read his impressions on Hardblogger.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
17. Very Nice Sir
Your prop to Jane Hamsher
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
19. Fitzgerald showing how Libby is liar - big time n/t
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
25. How may time has Libby said "The Truth Would Be"
and Fitz is showing him changing his story... OMG :wow:
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. MSNBC Breaking News by Shuster
VP deeply involved in CIA leak.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #27
34. They are nailing Cheney.
Intense.
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
28. Favor please?
Can we have links to the previous Plame threads? I just noticed this now and I want to catch up.

Thanks. :hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. The DU Research forum
has them all. Also, the newest ones are on my DU journal.

Others may have the actual links. You must forgive me -- very little sleep last night. Thus the errors etc in this thread.
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. No apologies necessary
I should have thought of those places. Thanks for all you do Waterman!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Bet I'm not
the only one who had trouble sleeping last night!!!
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
78. Like a kid on Fitzmas eve!
Yawn! :D
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:33 PM
Original message
Here's Link To Research Forum
With old and new Plame threads. Scroll down to heading CIA Leak:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_oet&address=358x192
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
29. Thanks for this thread.
K&R
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
30. On MSNBC Jonathon Alter is saying VP
at a minimum should become an unindicted co-conspirator and he is using the name Spiro Agnew!!!! That VP was all over it!


Bring on the :popcorn:!
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Wow. Just wow.
How long have we been waiting for this!? And this is just opening statements! :bounce:
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Breathtaking and Ann Curry was saying how
this steps all over the SOTU speech tonight! Right with ya:bounce:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Poor George.
I also want to say, "Impeach Dick Cheney."
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Fitz may actually start forcing Congress' hand
as that is a huge opening statement complete with LIBBY being the primary instrument to beat the VP round the ears. Plus, its subtle how often Libby touched base with his boss for direction, but it is definitely a recurring theme. Mix in the fact that less than two weeks agoCheney called Libby one of the most "honest men he knew" on camera and we have a mutually assured CF between Libby & Cheney! Congress can not ignore this, I bet Conyers is following every single word! ;)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I agree.
It would seem unlikely that Cheney can stay on. Kind of reminds me of a question that Chris Matthews asked on Hardball on October 26, 2005: "Can the president escape from his current difficulties .... if he stays in partnership with Dick Cheney? Doesn't he have to cut him loose ...?"
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #38
56. To Me, Wells Pointing The Finger At Rove
May be the most important development of the day. It couldn't be better. It will now clearly place the OP and OVP clearly against each other. Who will * support? Rove, never one known for niceties will be out for those OVP boys. That Wells chose that defense stuns me, and thrills me at the same time. Let the fireworks begin.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
88. if he could nail Cheney then I bet Cheney would take
Bush with him...
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
42. No surprise, Wells is portraying Libby as victim and a newbie
in dealing with the press. He had more important things to do and dealing with the press was not his natural forte. oh dear, :rofl:
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
44. ROFLMAO! Wells is blaming ROVE!
:rofl: They are actually ensuring the two camps expose themselves on this - the Bush team versus the Cheney team. OMG!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Yes.
I'm reminded of Wilson writing about Rove blaming Cheney and Libby for the fine mess they created!
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Applying pressure intently on someone
almost always results in this. It's a good tactic if anyone's interested.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Beautiful Sight
Rats turning on each other
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #50
99. This had to happen and
I'm loving it. Go Fitz.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. OMG, this is a riot
Oh so it's all Karl's fault. What kind of strategy is that?

Looks like a showdown between the office of the VP and the President. I love to watch repugs turn on each other.

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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
46. Informative post as usual, H20 Man. Question....
Why do you think Cheney wasn`t named an unindicted co-conspitator? Hope I have the term right. I remember it from the Nixon fiasco.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. I still think
that he was not named as an unindicted co-conspirator, because there is still an option on the table.
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Is Fitzgerald just being cautious or
will he wait to see how Libby`s trial concludes? Seems to me that Cheney`s actions should be met with a charge of some kind.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. It's a huge move
to take -- charging the VP with a serious crime. I think he should have by now. However, I trust Mr. Fitzgerald's judgement.
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. I trust Fitzgerald`s judgement as well.
I certainly don`t want this trial turned into a blood feud or a grudge match, but Cheney shouldn`t be left sitting in his VP throne unscathed after this is over. What he did was despicable....and because of his pre-determined decisions about invading Iraq, he outed a covert operative.

I think of all the poeple killed and maimed for a lie. It truly sickens me.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Yep.
I think that the information being made public today does two things: first, it shows the need to impeach Cheney; second, it shows why Bush can't pardon Libby.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #52
74. I think, and it is only conjecture on my part, Fitzgerald
is putting in place unimpeachable, rock solid building blocks leading to Cheney, much as he did with regard to the former Governor of Illinois, Ryan, so that, in the end, there is NO question as to the legitimacy of any charges of Cheney, whether they be in Congress or in the courts.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. I agree. n/t
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. We Always Thought He'd Get Him One Way Or The Other
Either highway or side road
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #51
89. He's waiting for Cheney to Lie on the stand or
explain why he lied to the FBI earlier

either way Cheney just going under oath is going to be one hot seat
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
55. Note to all young DUers:
A lot of younger DUers have asked the "older generation" here about the Watergate days. If you wonder what is was like, today you have the answer.

This is an important day in our nation's history.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #55
65.  I was merely a wee lass during Watergate so this is
is good to know. :-) My faith in our wonderful American Experiment has been rightfully restored.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #55
86. Except I had the pleasure of watching the Watergate trial on TV. I wish this was being televised.
It's a shame it isn't. Think of all the people who know NOTHING about this case. If it was on TV, they would be as outraged as we are. Do you know why it isn't on TV?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Federal court rules ....
I think it was great that Judge Walton opened the doors to bloggers.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #90
98. I see. Yes, I'm glad bloggers are there too. At least we'll get some idea of what's
REALLY going on.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
58. I think Cheney is likely to be indicted. n/t
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Either way
Cheney's screwed.

At the least he will be an unindicted co-conspirator.

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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
64. By my count so far, Libby has fingered (by implication):
Edited on Tue Jan-23-07 01:43 PM by Tatiana
1) Karl
2) Ari
3) Richard Armitage (WTF!?)
4) The CIA (Not a smart move...)

Anyone else that I missed?

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Team Libby
will also blame Wilson, Fitzgerald, and Cathy Martin. And, as the trial progresses, they will attempt to draw distinctions between Cheney and his faithful Scooter.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. This is surreal.
I think his "defense" will land some Bush administration members in a lot of hot water.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. They only represent
Scooter Libby's interests. The guys on Team Libby are going to go for broke in representing their client. The only question is exactly how many officials they will break in doing so?
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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #64
106. AS far as the CIA. I recall
in an interview with Wilson before this really hit the fan that he was asked whether he thought that the people who did this would be brought to justice. And, despite a political atmosphere of airtight solidarity behind the whip-cracking, iron-fisted BushCo, Wilson responded with confidence and without hesitation, "Yes." It was striking. At the time, the Teflon Bush Admin looked impenetrable with all aggressors being dealt with harshly and effectively, but Wilson knew the CIA was not going to take this sitting down. This outing was an offense that wasn't going to be tolerated. They outed an agent. They broke up an entire network and operation. They compromised National Security. And the CIA wasn't gonna let it go.

Not long after that, Ari and George went to spend more time with their families.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #106
113. Excellent points! Especially on the timing of George's and Ari's departures. n/t
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #64
114. Tenet.
I'm trying to believe in Hell just so that
those people can GO THERE!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
68. It sounds like
Mr. Fitzgerald has begun to respond to some of Teddy Wells cheap shots. He objected to two issues. Walton agreed on one. Things are going to be tense this afternoon.

I'm getting this information from the wonderful blogging available from FireDogLake; the link is found on post #7 on this thread.
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
73. Fitz says You all have a lifetime of experience in sizing people up.


""I submit to you, if you keep an open mind during this trial if you follow the isntructions of the law that Walton will give to you and apply your common sense, you will be convinced.""

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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #73
81. Wells says This whole prosecution is built on a false premise.
"This is what Fitz said: What Scooter Libby wanted to do was make up a phony story about Russert, so when he was asked questions about Judy or Cooper, he learned about it from Russert.

"That theory is illogical and intellectually flawed."

On July 11, Mr. Libby is told by Karl Rove that Novak has already written a story. About Valerie Wilson that she works at the CIA.

If Mr. Libby needed a reporter on the 11th so he could say to Miller or Cooper, he didn't need to invent a story with Russert. He heard on the same day that Novak had already written a story.""


(Maybe Libby wanted to comparmentalize and not refer to Rove?)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Poor Ted.
His choice of lies is not much better than Scooter's!
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. He is baiting Fitzgerald
by omitting certain facts or pretending they don't exist. My best guess is he is trying to create a basis for appeal by claiming Fitz did not object and make Fitz seem objectionable to the jury with all of his objections. Hmmm, the list of stipulations must of been pretty short. ;)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
76. Teddy Wells:
Ari Fleischer revealed Plame's identity to MSNBC's David Gregory .... interesting.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. The story of how Ari actually
Edited on Tue Jan-23-07 02:45 PM by Pithy Cherub
gets the info in the first place is, um, much more illuminating! ;)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. It is.
Yesterday afternoon, I was talking to a friend about what I should write about on DU this morning. And Ari seemed a good choice.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
79. So what does Libby hope to accomplish through this trial?
Does he really think he'll get off?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. Good question.
Libby knows he will be convicted. He had been involved in negotiations to come up with a deal in the weeks before he was indicted. He knows that he is guilty. I think there was a time when, like some of the plumbers from Watergate, he believed he would get a presidential pardon. And he may think that his attorneys can keep him out of jail, on appeal, until Bush is ready to leaver office, and that he'll be pardoned then.

One thing is for sure: Libby shows far more loyalty to Cheney, than Cheney does to him.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. And why is that? Why the loyalty to Cheney? n/t
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #87
115. deleted -- posted in wrong spot --sorry
Edited on Tue Jan-23-07 06:09 PM by antigop
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #85
91. I Think That Pardon Became An Impossibility Today
When he had his attorney point the finger at Rove as the culprit. Placing the responsibility in the office of the president was a big no no. Also, today Cheney's daughter is mouthing off about opponents to the war. How smart is that?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. For quite a while,
when people have expressed concern that Bush would grant a pardon -- which is a rational, realistic concern -- I've said that there is a reason why Bush can't.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. Yes, I agree.
So what does Libby really hope to accomplish? Does he really think he will get off?

He can't realistically think he will get a pardon, can he?

(Sorry, I don't get it.)
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
92. i'd love to see Fitz get that filth Bartlett on the stand--he's about as trustworthy as a cockroach
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
94. PS ....
Before I forget (again): there is another person that Team Libby has to attack -- Grossman.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #94
108. Grossman is going to be the first witness
n/t
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
96. Pure Comedic Farce! Now Libby is saying his memory is
poor. OMG! :rofl: He was known for his memeory and recitation of facts and his lawyer is portraying Scooter's memory as feeble. :rofl:
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #96
100. The whole courtroom *GASPED* when that statement was made.
I think Libby's team just sunk themselves in quicksand with that one.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Wells started his opening with how important Libby's job
Edited on Tue Jan-23-07 03:37 PM by Pithy Cherub
was with handling national security, White House issues and the OVP as chief of staff and then to lay that in the middle of his opening that Libby has a terrible memory. Just wow. An absolute wow, that the the Vice President would hire somebody with such a terrible memory and Libby got flustered by reporters when his job dealt with dictators. My mind stretched and snapped. I. CAN'T. BELIEVE. THEY. DID. THAT - OUT LOUD! :wow:

:popcorn:

laughing too hard had to clean it up...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. These are the guys
who ALWAYS have taken the "trust us -- we are WAY smarter than you" approach to government. This new "the absent-minded administrator" approach isn't going to work well.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. I, too, could NOT believe they "went there." It was beyond lame.
That's got to be the worst excuse since "the dog ate my homework."

Fitzgerald is going bury these criminals. :popcorn:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #103
104. I can remember one
time when I was involved in a case, which was being heard in NYS Supreme court, which is the second highest level here. A friend of mine was representing one side, and he had a exchange with the other side before the formal business started. And it was good natured. But he said, "I'm going to kick your behind today, pal. Look at the witnesses I have." Teddy Wells has to know that Mr. Fitzgerald has a strong case, and that Scooter is guilty as hell. There really isn't anything better than a "the dog ate my homework" bit piece for Wells to put forward!
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. Well, you do have a point. He's guilty. n/t
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. Can FitzG. Now Call Witnesses
even if they're not on his witness list to impeach Well's statement that Libby has a feeble memory?
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
97. It looks Fitz will try to bring clarity, and Wells will try to show confusion
Fitz is matter of fact, and Wells brings in the sympathy card.

Come on Jurors.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
111. I think its important to remember William Pitt's baseball analogy.
WHIG, and its intention to sell an unnecessary war to a shell-shocked public, is only half the story. The other half of the manipulative sales team could be found in the neighborhood occupied by the Department of Defense. The Office of Special Plans, or OSP, was created by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld specifically to second-guess and reinterpret intelligence data to justify war in Iraq. Think of it like baseball: the OSP pitched, and WHIG caught.

The OSP was on no government payroll and suffered no Congressional oversight. Their tainted information and interpretations overtopped the Iraq data being provided by the State Department and CIA. The OSP was able to accomplish this thanks to devoted patronage from high-ranking members of the administration, most prominently Vice-President Cheney.

The highest levels of the OSP were staffed by heavy-hitters like Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith and William Luti, a former Navy officer who worked for Cheney before joining the Pentagon. When the OSP wanted to intimidate analysts into shaping conclusions to fit the already-made war decision, Cheney went to CIA headquarters on unprecedented visits. Once there, he demanded "forward-leaning" interpretations of the evidence. When Cheney was unable to go to the CIA, his chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, went in his place.

That's it, right there. Mr. Libby may be a target of Mr. Fitzgerald, but no one should forget the trips Cheney personally made to Langley in order to wring war-supporting evidence out of the analysts. He went himself. His fingerprints are all over the scene.


http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/101705I.shtml

Fleischer, as press secretary, is ultimately one of the catchers in this conspiracy. I can't wait to see what he has to say in court.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. Very good!
Thanks!
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #112
117. Another reason Tenet was fired.
Tenet sent Joe Wilson to Niger twice knowing that Mr. Wilson would not back up Cheney. It was Tenet's slap on the Regime for hanging him out to dry on the WMDs Intell. Tenet went along with the WMD scam but had deep regrets right after. Tenet also exposed Ahmed Chalabi's scam yet another reason he was fired. Tenet has the goods on Cheney but will never reveal them. Why? The Regime has some dirt on him.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #111
120. rp, you continue to amaze me!
I have tremendous respect for your intelect. Thank you for adding to the discussion.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #120
122. Thanks kohodog!
Wish I could add more, but I've been busy. Been trying to read firedoglake when I can, this has been real juicy!
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #122
131. Firedog has given good access.
Too bad it's not on cspan for all to see.

The SOTU address is so much bs. Tough to watch only because of the disingenuousness of the applause. The room should be silent when Bush speaks. He is full of lies.
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antigop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
116. TPM is asking for thoughts -- same question I asked earlier
Edited on Tue Jan-23-07 06:20 PM by antigop

http://talkingpointsmemo.com /

>>
A Republican pal makes a good point sizing up what happened today in the Scooter Libby trial. Contrary to what some have said, I don't think there were any new facts alleged today. The key is that Libby has decided to base his defense in large part on an attack on the White House -- specifically on Karl Rove, almost certainly on other top advisors and conceiveably even on the president himself. The logical inference from that decision is that Libby and his lawyers have decided that President Bush will not pardon their client.

Why the White House would have decided that or why they would have chosen to make that decision clear to Libby is a bit hard to fathom. But it's hard to figure why Libby would have gone so hard against Rove if he thought a pardon were still in the offing? Thoughts?

In a narrow political sense, Rove's guilt wouldn't exculpate Libby. And taking the rap for other guilty parties wouldn't absolve him either. Perhaps they're angling for some sort of politically-tinged jury nullification.
>>

Thoughts, anyone?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #116
121. A couple of thoughts.
First, there were a couple "new" facts brought out today. They were not really surprises. Things such as Ari Fleischer's status; the fact that Cheney wrote the instructions for Libby; and Libby being said to have deleted a Cheney message, are all "new." People suspected these type of things, of course.

Second, looking back to Wilson's book, on page 444, we read, "Apparently, according to two journalist sources of mine, when Rove learned that he might have violated the law, he turned on Cheney and Libby and made it clear that he held them responsible for the problem they created for the administration. The protracted silence on this topic from the White House masks considerable tension between the Office of the President and the Office of the Vice President."

It is safe to say that both Mr. Eckenrode and Mr. Fitzgerald were fully aware of these tensions, and exploited them. It is equally safe to presume that Team Libby will use these same tensions to their best advantage. Men like Teddy wells are concerned only with their client's well-being. They do not give a shit about Rove, Grossman, Martin, or Cheney. They will apply maximum pressure to any and every source that they might squeeze for Scooter's sake.

Regarding Rove's guilt: you are absolutely correct that it doesn't make Scooter any less guilty. Actually more, in the sense that Libby and Cheney played Karl; they knew he had a big mouth, and loved to be Mr. I-know-something-you-don't! (On page 443, Wilson notes that Cheney & Libby "shared (the information on Plame) with Karl Rove, who then circulated it in administration and neoconservative circles.") But, guilty people almost always try to point to others, to take the focus off themselves.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #121
123. Given Ari Was Immunized & The Tensions Between OP & OVP
Edited on Tue Jan-23-07 09:29 PM by Me.
Each man for himself, and selling each other downriver, I won't be surprised to hear that, after all, KKK made a deal.( Besides the fact that I always thought it was so, today's proceedings give me great hope that bit will be made public. Maybe Wells will spill the beans on KKK, more than he already has.)
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
118. So.....Ari Was Immunized
Not as dumb as he behaved

"Finally, some news of who got immunity to testify against Libby: Ari Fleischer, for one. Wells told the jury:

When the FBI wanted to talk to Ari, he pled the fifth, refused to testify unless he was immunized. After being immunized he said he had this conversation with Libby."

http://www.talkleft.com/
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. Yep.
He knew the deal.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #119
124. Holy Shit, That's Huge, Ari's Gonna Fuck 'Em But Good
Fitz got the goods. Oh boy. :woohoo:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. I have a feeling
people from the OVP will despise Ari in a manner similar to the Nixon gang's feelings towards John Dean.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. Yeah, I Get The Feeling Ari Turned Early On
Edited on Tue Jan-23-07 09:17 PM by Beetwasher
And will be a very key witness. Ari was one of the real smart one's in the admin. and knew that if he didn't turn early it would be bad for him as others would certainly turn on him. He knew the calibre of the scum he was dealing with.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #126
127. Right.
He was out of the White House at the end of the week that he was on the trip to Africa. He wasn't one of The Boys any more.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
129. While watching Keith, I started cheering for you, H2O Man!
You have done so much work on this, and not only enlightened us tremendously, but kept our hopes up when all looked bleak.

What an exciting installment!

One question.... did any of this hit the news other than MSNBC, do you know? I have told a few people, who had no clue what happened today. Do you have any idea when this may hit the news big time?

I'm so ready for a party! :party:

Thanks so much for all your efforts in writing so much about this! :applause:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. I didn't see
any other tv station today. I read that Fox was ignoring it. But I have a feeling that the morning newspapers will be carrying stories on it.
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La_Fourmi_Rouge Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #130
132. funny...

"But I have a feeling that the morning newspapers will be carrying stories on it."

Bwahahaha! This is like Judge Walton's admonition to the jury: "This might be on the Internet."
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-23-07 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #130
133. I'll be trying to find national papers in the morning, then.
I'm really anxious to see this get national attention.

I have such fine memories of John Dean testifying during Watergate, and wish we could see Ari testifying in this! I just want the whole nation (and the world, too, damnit!) hearing this!

Surprised about Fox. :sarcasm:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #133
134. I like to
"google" Scooter Libby, and read the articles from newspapers around the globe. This morning, however, I am going to go and pick up copies of lots of newspapers.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #134
135. Here's a good one on Yahoo this AM
Looks like Libby is going to attack everyone, except Cheney. By the time this is over, even if Libby isn't found guilty (which he will be), he'll still be a dead man walking, with all the enemies is seems intent on creating. What a selfish mfer, little Scooter seems to be.



Libby lawyers attack witness credibility

Jan 24, 2007

WASHINGTON - Attorneys for former White House aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby say the testimony of the government's first witness in the CIA leak trial may have been improperly influenced.

Marc Grossman, the former No. 3 official at the State Department, took the stand Tuesday and testified that in June 2003 he was the first person to tell Libby that one of the Bush administration's most vocal critics on
Iraq was married to a CIA operative.

Libby is charged with lying and obstructing the investigation into who leaked CIA operative
Valerie Plame's identity to syndicated columnist Robert Novak. The leak came shortly after her husband, ex-ambassador Joseph Wilson, emerged as a prominent war critic.

Libby, who was Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, told a grand jury that he believed he learned Plame's identity from NBC newsman Tim Russert. Grossman is the first in a string of government witnesses who will say they told Libby about Plame well before his conversation with Russert.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070124/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cia_leak_trial

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #135
136. Team Libby has to
discredit everyone in the case that is associated with the Bush administration. They have to say that all the witnesses are either liars, grossly incompetent, or a combination of both. And they may be right. However, in the context of the FBI investigation and Mr. Fitzgerald's grand jury investigation, even those who were hired on in the Bush administration because of their ability to lie and their gross incompetence, have been pinned down and are telling the truth: Libby and Cheney are criminals.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #136
137. Libby is on trial for lying,
so his defense is to try to prove everyone else lied too, so he couldn't possibly be the one that lied. For someone who is a lawyer and is supposedly so smart, you would think he could come up with a better defense?



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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #137
140. Years ago,
ex-heavyweight champion George Foreman told a story about himself, when he got caught skipping school. And he told about how he -- like any liar -- just went through a series of lies to try to cover up for himself. And I remember him saying, "When you are a liar that's been caught doing something wrong, you'll try any lie."

For Scooter, there weren't a lot of options. After coming very close to accepting a plea deal in the fall of '05 before being indicted, there aren't many alternatives beyong: {1} I didn't mean to lie, and {2} it's someone else's fault.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #140
143. Another Option
Other people lied, I'm not the only liar in the room. Why other people in the admin lied/lied all the time.

Move along here, nothing to see, just lying
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Jemmons Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #134
138. Nothing on the trial yet here in Denmark
Edited on Wed Jan-24-07 06:46 AM by Jemmons
but i think its too early. The news here are saturated with things about the congress, Hillary, the CIA-prisoners being flow through european airspace and there was a feature about the death of E. Howard Hunt.

http://politiken.dk/indland/article231792.ece
http://politiken.dk/udland/article231766.ece

The german paper, Frankfurter Allgemeine had a feature about the trial some days ago and the other media here will catch up soon im sure:

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub28FC768942F34C5B8297CC6E16FFC8B4/Doc~E97EF9D9E85824427B2328E320BAA9665~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

Correction - Found this:
http://politiken.dk/udland/article231655.ece
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #134
142. I wonder if the news about VP being "deeply involved" in this will
make it to the front pages? Or will it be shown up by the State of Denial speech?

I am very curious and interested to learn what you discover today? I will be away from DU until this evening.

Have a good day H2O Man and thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Libby Trial and the Plame leak.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #134
147. Well, pooh.... I hope you report.... I got to the library to find all the newspapers are in piles
on the floor. They *would* pick today to rearrange the furniture! :) It looks like my own living room. :hi:

In USA TODAY, the Libby story is on page 5A. The only Fitz comment I see is in the second to the last column: "Fitzgerald told jurors that Libby learned of Plame's CIA job from Cheney, then from two other CIA employees, from a State Department official and from a Cheyen spokesman in June or early July 2003, before Libby passed the information to two news reporters......"

"Fitzgerald said Libby played a key role in helping Cheney deflect criticism beginning in July 2003 that he was responsible for 'twisting intelligence' to suggest that Iraq was in the process of acquiring uranium, possibly for a nuclear weapon."

If that's all a person would hear or read, I'm afraid they are back to snoozing. It's just not very interesting. I wish now that Keith was compulsory viewing! :hi:

Looking foward to what you're finding....

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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #130
139. Front Pages of newspapers around the world
Edited on Wed Jan-24-07 07:02 AM by DemReadingDU
Cool Website!

http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpages/


edit to add...
some papers not yet updated for 1/24/07

also, I prefer the map view to see the locations of the newspapers
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Jemmons Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
141. Your piece on Ari Fleischer touches on something that makes
it a lot easier to understand the basic plame-gate dynamic.
When you heard about the "plummers" breaking into watergate and placing wire tabs, it instantly made sense and pointed to involvement by the GOP. But the illegal "outing" of a CIA operative doesnt really strike you as a smart move by the administration. This is something that i think has made it a "harder sell" to casual observers and only when you establish the "alley-oop" strategy as a modus operandus for the WHIG does it make sense in a clear way. I think this will have to be stressed for the whole trial to make sense to the wider public.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
144. H2O man.........Would you possible consider doing a daily and or weekly
short summary of the trial as it progresses? Something each
day or so with the highlights.

I love your longer and thoughtful analyses when I have the
time to dive in and savor it. But some days I am time challenged
and overloaded with life!

SO I would love it you would think about a day to day short blurb
on what you think are the highlights and your comments?

Just an idea, thank you H2O man.


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #144
145. I just posted
a shorter one for this morning. During the day, I'm hoping we can have an on-going discussion of events in the courtroom.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-24-07 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #145
146. Great. So you will give us a short summary each day or so?
And then a more in depth blow by blow acct and discussion in another thread?
Or maybe you can do a weekly wrap up each Friday?
(sorry, you can tell me to stop suggesting more work for you!)

Great!

Which one is going to be the shorter summary?
Maybe you can label them somehow?
So that a quick look can tell us the type of thread?

Many thanks H20man.

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