Those of us on the left have no carrots and but one stick..

[Jonathan50]

The right has all the carrots, great big juicy green carrots, stacks and stacks of them.

The left has but a stick.

The stick of withholding our vote until we get some of what we want.

[villager]

1. withholding your vote? Try withholding your money, instead

That will hurt them more

Look at all your consumer habits -- buy used/recycled where you can. Check gas use. Grow food if possible. Etc., etc...

[Jonathan50]

3. We don't have any money...

We are so far beyond broke that we couldn't see broke with the Hubble telescope.

And anyway, how would withholding my money from the corporations influence the Democrats to give the left a taste of what they they thirst for like a frog in the desert?

[villager]

52. well, I'm not sure "withholding" your vote will be noticed by them...

As for "You," I meant that in the broad, editorial "You" sense -- we should all quit feeding the very beast we now is slavering after us, our children, our futures, etc....

[Jonathan50]

58. And that is accomplished by voting for people who court your vote

And then act against your interests..

Hillary Clinton comes to mind immediately.

[villager]

59. uh, I'm not telling you who to vote for...

n/t

[Jonathan50]

60. Name me the politician who keeps all their campaign promises...

[villager]

62. name me the method you will use to change the system simply by not voting?

n/t

[Jonathan50]

69. Name me the method you will use to change the system by simply

Voting for those who court you votes and then act against your interests.

Has Hillary admitted that voting for the IWR was a mistake yet?

She is almost certainly going to be the nominee, the MSM will make sure of that.

[villager]

70. Why do you assume that "voting" is the only thing I'm advocating?

Why won't do anything other than react angrily to the posts in this thread?

This'll be my last go-round in this thread. Best of luck with "sitting things out!"

[Jonathan50]

75. Here's why I'm angry..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1179922&mesg_id=1181293

[villager]

85. all right, one more go-round in honor of you laying your cards on the table

Of course we're all getting screwed by the political/ruling/ownership class. But voting for Dems is only about "breathing room" -- i.e., not being rounded up right away, or buying 10 more years to do something about global warming, etc. -- while we work for real solutions, "unauthorized" solutions, on the ground.

Us -- all of us -- a little bit at a time.

I wish you the very best with the huge amount of "life stuff" on your plate right now. I don't suppose just selling the house and seeing the world for awhile is an option, eh?

[Jonathan50]

90. Sell the house and the creditors get it all..

Then we have nothing and no place to stay..

We spent nine months in a motel room in 1989 and seven months in a tent in 1984.

I'm too old and sick to do that any more..

Six years ago, were were planning on moving to Puerto Rico.

Then Bush and 9/11 happened..

[villager]

93. is there a particular benefit to staying, at the moment?

Would not even the altered bankruptcy laws be of some help?

[Bluebear]

2. No sex threads. nt

[Jonathan50]

6. I'll post any kind of thread I please.

I don't tell you what to post.

That you would even attempt to tell me what to post is a direct insult.

[Bluebear]

8. I hope you're kidding

Right?

[Jonathan50]

9. Kidding about what?

I'm going to post any damn thread I please.

If the mods want to delete them and not tell me why, then to hell with it, I'm gone.

[Bluebear]

10. You just don't know what an ass you are making of yourself over nothing.

But carry on.

[Jonathan50]

11. Have I ever told you what to post?

Why would you even think of telling me what to post.

That sure comes across as arrogance.

[Bluebear]

12. "No sex threads" was a joke, you dumb fuck. Big stick, sex, get it?

Nobody was telling you not to post anything, you hothead.

[Jonathan50]

15. Have I ever called you any names?

It is against DU rules to call names.

So who is the hothead now?

[Bluebear]

16. Yeah you called me arrogant. And yes, I am calling you stupid in this instance.

Now go looking for a fight elsewhere, you just reacted poorly to a joke so stop embarrassing yourself.

[Jonathan50]

18. My exact words:

"That sure comes across as arrogance."

Show me where I said you were arrogant.

[Bluebear]

19. LOL this is too bizarre. nt

[Dr. Strange]

20. Well, I got a laugh anyway

Here's to you Bluebear: :toast:

Maybe the left needs a sense of humor to go with the stick!

[Bluebear]

22. Thank you, DUS :) I thought I was losing it for a minute lol. nt

[annabanana]

23. I 'got' it.. . (A standard DU jest though it may be). .and yes, I laughed

again

[Bluebear]

26. I confess to being juvenile but not mean-spirited lol

XOXO

[Jonathan50]

24. You started it..

Not me..

[Bluebear]

27. LMAO!!! I am going to stop answering you now, not out of any disrespect...

...but because something appears to be the matter with you today.

[Jonathan50]

35. I've been answering the phone "what the *fuck* do you want..

For almost a week now..

I just did a forum search for the letter "a".

Got no results..

I was going to show you a post I did the other day that will show you what I'm dealing with.

But it is impossible to find, since no term whatsoever I type in returns any hits at all.

[Jonathan50]

64. OK, I finally found it... Here is what I'm dealing with and why I'm less than pefectly calm lately

Thanks to astronomical medical bills we're in debt that we will never pay off.

The new motherboard that I just bought for my daughters school computer may well be borked and I might have done it.

We have one car, a 93 with over 250 k and there is no way we have the money to replace it and credit is a mere fantasy.

My wife is putting on 100 miles per day to work and back and is working 10 to 14 hour days about six days a week.

I haven't worked or even been out of the house much for more than three years now.. Soon approaching four.

The siding on our bay window has literally fallen off the house from water damage, I can't fix it and we don't have the money to pay someone else to do it. Our son in law would be happy to do it but he has more than he can handle with three kids, a full time job and getting a bachelors degree at the same time.

I've had three monitors let the magic smoke out in the last nine months and I'm now using a $2 yardsale sony that takes about two minutes to warm up and the colors all shift for the first hour it's on.

Our vacuum cleaner finally let the magic smoke out about six weeks ago and the carpet is vile.

We have two cars defunct for which we paid almost four thousand, one dead in the driveway and the other in pieces in the basement. I can't get out to fix them either.

Our dog hasn't been to the vet in two and a half years and hasn't had heartworm medicine in over two years. Happily she is an entirely indoor dog so hopefully she hasn't been bitten by a mosquito carrying heartworms.

Our insurance changed about ten months ago and we had to leave a doctor we really liked and the new one is a total dick.

The flush handle on the toilet that doesn't leak just broke and now you have to take the lid off to flush it, I can't fix that either.

We are in the middle of a severe drought, my grass crunches when it's walked on and the dandelions are flourishing.

My brother's sister in law is in the hospital dying of cancer of the mouth.

Our daughter has nerve damage in her elbows and must have an operation on them.

Our roof is fifteen year shingles and we have owned our home for sixteen years. No leaks. Yet.

Our HVAC is sixteen years old and so inefficient now that it's not even worth turning on.. Luckily we bought a small room ac at a pawn shop a few years ago for our bedroom so we can at least sleep in comfort.

Did I mention we live in the deep South and it's damn hot now and will be until almost October?

Sweet Gum trees are the fasting growing trees I've ever seen and we have a thirty footer right above where the car has to park. It drips sticky sap all over the car. I can't get out to cut it down even if my chainsaw wasn't gummed up with dried gasoline from years of sitting unused.

We have a huge ridge between us and the major town we live closest to, out of ten channels we get two that are watchable most of the time when the weather is good. Cable is out of the question.

Without the intertubes I will surely go stark raving mad and finding the money for our connection is becoming harder and harder.

We are three months behind on our mortgage and we have been screening calls for years now. Don't want to spend the money for caller id.

I just left a local board since they are very conservative and were selectively deleting my posts when I would corner them on political issues.

We make too much money to qualify for any aid and not enough to live on.

My meds are over two hundred a month now and probably will double within the next year.. And that's only paying a quite reasonable copay. If we had to pay the whole thing I would have no alternative but to die.

<sigh> My fingers are getting tired and this is just a tad depressing.

The funny thing is that we are really quite happy. Our whole family truly loves each other, we have a fantastic relationship with our daughter, son in law and three grandchildren.

My brother and I are really close emotionally even though we live sixty miles apart and see each other seldom. We email each other about every other day and have extended conversations every week or so.

I just got in touch with my extended family in the UK after over forty years of having no clue where they were or how to get in touch with them and they had no clue how to find me either. Pure chance brought us together recently.. I now have my geneology back to the fifteenth century after almost an entire life of knowing nothing of my ancestry. Turns out I'm related to Elvis, Warren G Harding and another president that escapes me right at the moment as well as Henry David Thoreau.

Life goes on, day by day.

[blondeatlast]

51. Bad, bad, Bluebear! LOL! nt

[Bluebear]

54. I know, see what trouble I started! lol

[Warpy]

4. Their carrots are all full of banned pesticides

and it's high time Congress figures that out before they get poisoned to death.

[Rex]

5. Actually, the right can't move without the stick.

Gotta have something to hold the carrot. Who has the string is my question.

[annabanana]

7. Withholding your vote just makes their votes worth more.. . . . n/t

[Jonathan50]

13. The we have no power whatsoever...

If you wish to be utterly powerless, be my guest.

[bigtree]

14. and,

you can organize locally for a candidate who will represent your concerns

[Jonathan50]

17. Oh please..

Elect 'em and as soon as they are in office they succumb to the heady aroma of the big juicy green carrots.

Naked force is the only thing these people understand.

And the only force at our disposal is that of the stick, the stick of withholding our votes until we get at least a little of what we so desperately need.

[annabanana]

25. NO ONE listens to someone who has announced he 'won't vote'

except the people who are glad he's staying home.

[Jonathan50]

30. Really?

What about those who need his vote to get elected?

If someone isn't going to give me anything I want for my vote, why bother?

[Gold Metal Flake]

21. Vote suppression is a Republican game. Yours as well, it seems.

Crooks and Liars has a very informative video up of Paul Weyrich laying out the case for vote suppression back in the 1980's. He pretty much admits that the Republicans only gain a majority by keeping Democrats from voting:

Weyrich: “Now many of our Christians have what I call the goo-goo syndrome — good government. They want everybody to vote. I don’t want everybody to vote. Elections are not won by a majority of people, they never have been from the beginning of our country and they are not now. As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down.

[Jonathan50]

28. OK, you tell me how to push the Dems to the left then

[Gold Metal Flake]

33. By Electing Left Dems.

[Jonathan50]

40. Such as?

My personal issue is the WOsD.

Show me an electable Dem who is for ending the War On (some) Drugs.

[Gold Metal Flake]

42. I don't think anything could satisfy someone so bent on Vote supression.

An anti-democratic, anti-Democratic point of view, such as yours will win nothing. It only serves the conservatives, which, I guess, is the goal.

[Jonathan50]

44. Are you calling me a freeper?

Look at my sig pic..

[Gold Metal Flake]

47. A freeper is a member of the Free Republic message forum.

I have no evidence that you are a poster there, nor am I suggesting that you do post there.

You have suggested in this thread that readers of this Democratic message forum should not vote. That is anti-democratic and anti-Democratic. It is also aligned with the aims of the conservatives who would rather that Democrats, Liberals and moderates not vote so that their side can win. If Democrats took your advice, conservatives would gain the majority all across the country.

Why are you trying to help conservatives win political offices on a Democratic board?

As for your sig pic, it is not clear whether you identify with the driver or the vet. Your positions in this thread suggest the former.

[Jonathan50]

53. The only thing that motivates politicians is fear of not getting elected..

And desire for vast amounts of lucre.

We have no lucre.

[Gold Metal Flake]

55. I don't agree, but you can try to prove it.

But I am still curious why you would advocate not voting on a Democratic forum? Surely it would only help the conservatives.

[Jonathan50]

68. Voting for Democrats who then turn around and act like Republics

Is working so well.

Has Hillary admitted that voting for the IWR was a mistake yet?

[Gold Metal Flake]

92. You may well want to now redefine your position.

Certainly I would, if I were in your shoes. But the fatc is you are openly advocating that Democrats not vote. This is an extreme position that only serves to concentrate political power in the Republican party.

I still wonder why you would want to come here and post opinions that further the aims of the conservatives.

[Gold Metal Flake]

95. Awww.

The strawman factory local to you will have to scale back their production now.

[LoZoccolo]

29. Only if they are losers (and you see a lot of them here).

People could also get off their asses and work for issue groups, but for some reason we hear scant anything about, say, the ACLU, or People for the American Way, or NARAL, or the Sierra Club, or...

The carrot is to provide more votes for an issue, but that would require work, you see.

[Jonathan50]

31. The votes don't matter..

Because once they get elected they succumb to the heady aroma of the big green carrots.

The only thing they fear is not getting elected.

[LoZoccolo]

32. Lame.

Democrats haven't touched abortion, because it has a powerful lobby and organized activists, for one. Same deal with unions when they were powerful.

[Jonathan50]

34. OK, name me another...

NAFTA?

Clinton signed it.

War On (some) Drugs?

Arrests soared during Clinton's term.

[LoZoccolo]

37. Those issues actually help prove my point.

People against NAFTA have largely tried to use electoral strategies rather than lobbying and organizing and expanding knowledge of the issue, and it has remained something that most people know little about.

People are convinced more and more that marijuana should be legalized as well.

There is footwork to be done, and this takes time, but you cannot say that screwing up elections and getting Republicans elected (in effect, threatening citizens with violence), is the only choice.

[Jonathan50]

39. "People are convinced more and more that marijuana should be legalized as well."

And how many major Democratic candidates are in favor of ending the Drug War?

[LoZoccolo]

43. And how has Nader's tactics ended NAFTA? n/t

[Jonathan50]

79. And your tactics are working so well..

NAFTA is ending next week, right?

Show me the Dems talking about rescinding NAFTA..

[LoZoccolo]

83. We've already been through this.

There is no anti-NAFTA lobby, or organized movement to get enough people to dislike it enough that the candidates can't ignore it as an issue. Go start one.

[Jonathan50]

84. Nader is trying to bring people to act against NAFTA..

Who among the Dems is?

[LoZoccolo]

91. No he's not.

He's trying to threaten his way into it. If you haven't caught on by now, this thread is how that doesn't work, nor is it the only way to get things done.

[Jonathan50]

36. And what would the pro choicers do to a Dem who voted anti choice?

Continue to vote for them?

I think not.

[LoZoccolo]

38. It depends on what the Republican was doing.

And what other issues the candidate supported. But from what I've seen from a friend of mine who's in the National Organization for Women, they understand that doing things like picketing pharmacies that won't sell emergency contraception is part of what they need to do to get things done.

[Jonathan50]

41. All protests do, unless they are truly massive, is piss of the middle of the roaders..

[LoZoccolo]

45. Maybe the ones you attend.

I'll tell you one thing: your argument in this thread hasn't been very compelling.

[Jonathan50]

48. I live in a red area of a red state..

Protesters are viewed as troublemakers..

Unless it's that kook who protests at soldier's funerals.

[LoZoccolo]

49. Well, you're almost guaranteed to be miserable so long as...

...you refuse to take any responsibility for anything (including the stigma attached to protesters), and put it in the hands of a bunch of other people. Not just in politics, but life in general as well.

This friend of mine I spoke of was in North Carolina, by the way.

[Jonathan50]

67. Please show me in what way I am responsible for the stigma attached to protestors..

Now that you have admitted that there is indeed a stigma..

[LoZoccolo]

74. By refusing to do anything about it. n/t

[Jonathan50]

76. You failed to mention what anyone can do to change the stigma against protestors..

A few pointers would be nice..

[LoZoccolo]

80. Again, you're putting everything in the hands of other people.

You want stuff handed to you.

[Jonathan50]

86. LOL, I've been on my own since I was eighteen...

I haven't had a damn thing "handed to me".

You know nothing of me or my life.

You were the one who claimed to know what to do.

So tell me, o wise one.. What should I do?

[LoZoccolo]

89. !

I haven't had a damn thing "handed to me".

dot dot dot

So tell me, o wise one.. What should I do?

[More Than A Feeling]

46. We have a lever that you haven't mentioned...time.

Time is on our side. Maybe it will turn out not to be enough, but if this country and this world can hold together for about 30 years or so, my generation will take power, and we, the millenials, are much more progressive than our baby-boomer and gen-x predecessors. Bush has sown the seeds of the destruction of the conservative movement by pushing us to the left, while conservatives get older and greyer every day. So maybe we won't win today, or tomorrow, or even in 2008. But in a few decades...brother, you ain't seen nothing yet!

[Jonathan50]

56. My generation protested the Vietnam war

Woodstock.

The Summer of Love.

Sex 'n drugs 'n rock 'n roll..

Your generation will end up just like mine.

Liberals become conservative once they have something to conserve.

[More Than A Feeling]

57. That's actually incorrect.

Your generation dropped out not because it got more conservative but because it was overcome by cynicism (and this thread is actually a pretty good example of that). It was actually the next generation that became more conservative. This article explains all of it. http://www.greenbergresearch.com/index.php?ID=1277

[Jonathan50]

61. Do you really think I don't know people my own age?

[More Than A Feeling]

63. Are you denying that Watergate caused a massive increase in cynicism, especially

after Nixon smashed McGovern so completely?

[Jonathan50]

65. Well, we know one thing for sure..

The current imbroglio in Washington is not going to make anyone cynical, in fact, just the opposite.

We are having such a great effect on the nation, Bush is being impeached, the troops are being pulled from Iraq.

The Dem candidates have declared to a (wo)man that they will end the Drug War on the day they take office..

Yep, there's no reason for cynicism at all today.

[More Than A Feeling]

66. I'm more optimistic. We've learned the value of paying attention and holding government accountable

because we've seen what happens when we don't. We get all the things you've listed. Dropping out now would just exacerbate the problem.

[Jonathan50]

71. I'm not talking about dropping out..

I'm talking about sending a message to DINOs that they can not count on our support any more just because they have a "D" in front of their names..

[More Than A Feeling]

73. Primaries and public financing for all! nt

[Jonathan50]

77. LOL, a nice pipe dream...

Never in a million years will incumbents vote for that..

Not enough to make it happen..

[More Than A Feeling]

82. Tell it to incumbents

in Maine, Arizona, New Mexico, North Carolina, New Jersey, Vermont, and Connecticut, all of which have public financing to some extent, including full, voluntary public financing in Maine and Arizona.

[blondeatlast]

50. The way to get the electeds to listen is to not say anything. Got it.

:eyes:

If you can't donate money, give time and effort. If you've got neither, call your congressman. If you can't do that, work locally. If you can't bother with that much, don't waste my time.

[Jonathan50]

72. I live in a very red state..

All that happens when I call my congresscritters is that I get laughed at.

I have no money, I'm partially disabled.

What do you suggest I do?

[Madspirit]

78. Honey....carrots are orange...

Jonathon...I read above and know what you are going through. I understand totally. My girlfriend works six days a week because we can't get medication for my bipolar and PTSD and ergo I cannot work. We have animals who need to go to the vet. The car is in the shop and the shingles need replacing on our house too.

We do have love and a roof over our heads. You hang in there. The main reason I would want you to think out your posts before you post them is because I wouldn't want to see you TSed. Your heart is in the right place and I think you need this place and these interactions. You just have a lot of shit going on.

PM me if you would like to join one of my Yahoo Groups where you can vent all you want and not get in trouble.

Lee

[Jonathan50]

81. Notice that I got called 'a big dumb fuck" or something similar above..

And I didn't alert on the person that called me that..

Thanks for the kind words..

And by the way, GM carrots *are* green :)

[Madspirit]

87. Bluebear is one of my bestest friends here

Be nice to him and he will be nice to you. Are you in a manic phase right now?
Lee

[Bluebear]

88. Oh, Jonathan, please stop.

I'm truly sorry for all your troubles but that doesn't explain getting bent out of shape over a common DU joke. It was a misunderstanding on your part and let's end it, alright? I'm sorry for calling you a dumb fuck.

[LoZoccolo]

94. Looks like he's been tombstoned.

I've created a new poll in memory!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1182336