Highly respected wealthy man murders his family.

[Rosemary2205]

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/fayette/stories/2007/06/25/0625benoit.html


We've been talking about domestic violence lately in GD and some of our bravest members have had the courage to share their experiences with others. Sometimes we hear about abuse or violence going on in someone's home that we know and we automatically think "that has to be a lie" - because the person accused seems to be so incredible, so well respected, a consumate professional. Even well respected consumate professionals can be abusive in their "secret" lives.


I am a big time rasslin' fan. I've followed Chris Benoit for years and years. Never. Ever in a 1000 years would I expect to some day find out he was terrorizing his family for years and finally killed them. You cannot judge a person by their public persona. Whether it's a personality or the lady next door.

We have well respected priests raping little kids, we have mega-church preachers secretly hiring prostitutes, we have police officers murdering their pregnant wives. I wonder if Linsey England's family thought that woman was capable of torturing people? I'm astounded at what people are capable of. Who do we trust? How do we trust?

Or do we really just trust no one on the planet?

[Bucky]

1. Well I trust you

But my ball doesn't

[Rosemary2205]

2. Smile

:hi:

[Matsubara]

3. Trusting someone because they are wealthy, or white, or wear a uniform...

...is, and always has been, a very stupid thing to do.

I've always found that getting to know the person and their character is a much better indicator than the other factors.

But even then, you're wrong sometimes.



Whevenever I see a story about some crime in some nice neighborhood committed by some upstanding upper middle-class white person, I am always taken aback by all the neighbors who say "I can't believe it, he dressed so nice, he had such a nice face, he was always playing with his kids".

As long was we judge people on such superficial things, we will continue to be shocked, when we really shouldn't be.

[Rosemary2205]

8. I think it is an important reminder though

We do tend to think the best of people - and we do tend to be a little more trustworthy of people who come with pages and pages of people who will vouch for their character. I hold no illusions that upstanding white people can be criminals (ala the BFEE) - but even in my own little hamlet - my own neighbors. We had this woman who was active in all sorts of charities, helped her neighbors all the time, had several kids of her own and played with pretty much all the kids in the neighborhood. This woman was the salt of the earth by any standard. She lived here for 15 years. About a year after they moved she murdered 2 of her children and her husband and we learned she'd molested all of her kids and beat up on the husband for decades. This was not a white wealthy woman, but she did EARN our respect over many years -- and managed to hide her secret home life from us all.

I'm really beginning to wonder if ANYONE is trustworthy.

[Prophet 451]

27. I was in the business

This business is so incestuous, it's like playing Six Degrees Of Seperation so I worked with people who worked with him and everybody said he was firstly, one of teh very best workers in the business (which was true) and secondly, a really nice guy, a real straight-shooter.

As it turns out, Nancy had filed for divorce citing domestic violence in 2003 but that was dropped and kept so quiet that no-one had any idea.

I guess you never really know someone.

[Rosemary2205]

32. That was exactly the point of my post

I guess I'm just really struggling with trust right now. Not that I knew Benoit at all. It's just another case of it. Seems like you can't swing a banana without running into someone who is going out of their way to fake out everyone.

[Prophet 451]

36. I dunno

This has hit everyone in the business pretty hard and I think most of us are thinking the same thing. We all thought Benoit was the nicest guy in the locker room. If he did this... Well, it makes you wonder.

[ikojo]

57. The stock comments when a middle class white person

murders his/her family or goes on a rampage killing:

They were quiet
They were family people
They went to church
They kept a nice yard

Who hasn't heard these remarks about well off white folk who go off the deep end?

[Quantess]

85. So, YOU, yourself, don't judge people on "superficial things"?

It sure seems to me that you do.

[supernova]

4. Abusers are often

master social manipulators. They have a very congenial, flirty, confidence-inspiring public "face." But that's all it is, a "face." Not the truth.

In my case (emotional abuse), everybody believed he was a real hotshot young go getter, sure to be very successful in the coming years. I even fell for it because he seemed charming and responsible. But he did a 180 in private. Rage, blaming, whining, trying to get me to say what I didn't believe or feel just to agree with him. Meanwhile he pawed at me in public like we were highschoolers. PDAs were very big with him.

I finally got wise, got sick of it, got enraged, and kicked his sorry ass to the curb. And most people were shocked when I split.

"But he's so nice. Don't you want to stay and work it out?" Not only no, Hell NO!!

What I want to know is :wtf: makes outside observers think they know more than the person who wants out? That is what is so galling in the extreme.

People don't claim abuse out of the blue. If someone says they are being abused, I'm inclined to believe them.

[BlooInBloo]

6. Mommy Dearest.

[supernova]

18. Definitely another manifestation

of this personality.

[Contrary1]

16. Amen to that.

My daughter called from college one morning. The abusive boyfriend was trying
to kick down her door. I told her to call the police, and pack up whatever she
could in the two hours it would take her dad and I to get to her.

She never went back. She was so frightened of the idiot, that my son insisted
she sleep in his bedroom, while he slept on the floor with a baseball bat.

I found out later that he had once choked her, causing her to lose consciousness
for a few seconds. "See? I could have killed you, had I wanted to."

Took her years to be able to trust a man again.

[supernova]

20. Lemme guess

everybody else thought he was Mr Wonderful.

Glad your daughter got away Contrary1.

[Prophet 451]

28. No-One knew about the abuse

Nancy filed for divorce citing domestic violence in 2003 but that was dropped and kept so very quiet that no-one knew about it.

Everything everyone said about Benoit was positive. We just didn't know.

[supernova]

46. Horribly sad

*sigh*

[Toasterlad]

80. There's a Flip-Side, Though

"What I want to know is makes outside observers think they know more than the person who wants out? That is what is so galling in the extreme."

Unfortunately, it works the other way, too.

One of my very dear college friends was married to a total jerk, but she couldn't see it. She finally got the message after her asshole husband told her (about two months after the birth of their son!) that he no longer found her attractive, and wanted to sleep with other women. That's what it took to get her to look back on the seven years they'd been married and realize just what she'd put up with all along...the stuff we saw when they were out in public. How demeaning he was to her, how dismissive of her opinion. How he childishly craved attention, always wanting to leave when not enough fuss was being made over him. As far as I knew, he was never physically abusive to her (if I'd seen ANY evidence of that, I would have laid him out), but the emotional abuse was there. This was one of the smartest women I have ever known, and she never saw ANY of these flaws. Because she loved him. And we, her friends, couldn't say a bad word about him because of that love.

After she divorced his ass, she asked us why we had never told her she was married to such a loser. But if we had said anything against him while they were married, she would have dropped us without a second thought.

Love can be truly terrible sometimes.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

5. It's hard to believe there was a time when trust could be placed in a handshake.

There are still people whose word are their bond,...few, though. Very few people I know are like that. I'm just incredibly grateful they are my special friends.

[villager]

7. My 8 year old is a big wrasslin' fan, too, and I've begun watching with him...

We just saw Benoit on the tube a couple weeks ago.

Horrific stuff -- especially the details in the article you link to.

and it brings up out loud speculation about the wrestling biz in general: is the violence then, not "cathartic" but endemic, and spreading? Is steroid use turning all the WWF Superstars into walking time bombs of one sort or another?

[slj0101]

11. I planned on starting a thread about this,

but not sure if it's appropriate on a political message board. Maybe it is.

I think it's a number of factors: increased drug use (either to enhance appearance, or to boost energy to maintain a rigorous schedule), long touring schedules, the stress of being on two national weekly programs, backstage politics, etc. I don't think there were as many pressures back when pro wrestling consisted of a number of local promotions that only rarely moved out of their own territories.

[villager]

12. It might work as a lounge thread...

and yeah, since I've started watching with my young one, I can't believe what these guys put their bodies through on such a routine basis...

There must be a constant sea of both steroids *and* painkillers awash in their systems...

[Prophet 451]

30. More painkillers than roids

About two-thirds of the WWE roster are roiding but that's massively less in the smaller promotions, both because there's less emphasis placed on physical appearence (WWE has only ever "pushed" hugely muscular guys) and because the pay is lower (steroids are expensive).

Painkiller abuse is a massive problem. Yes, wrestling is rigged but getting repeatedly slammed on your back 200+ nights a year still takes it's toll and painkiller abuse is epidemic. It was painkiller addiction that forced me out (and I was just semi-pro, it's much worse for the full timers) and contributed to the mental and physical breakdown of Kurt Angle and deaths of Eddie Guerrero, Eddie Gilbert, Brian Pillman, Rick Rude... I could go on for a long time.

[Prophet 451]

29. There's a lot of factors

The drugs are part of it but don't seem to have been much of a factor this time. But the sheer grind of life on the road wears you down, the constant backbiting and politicking and the constant pressure to excel.

You're probably right that the old territories system made life easier for the workers but also, it meant that most of them weren't getting paid all that well.

Mike Awesome (suicide), Bam Bam Bigelow (drugs), Sherri Martel (unknown) and that's just this year. This business needs to change, the bodies are starting to pile up.

[Rosemary2205]

47. ""let the bodies hit the floor""

I guess it's not just a song. And yes, I agree with you, something or someone has to FORCE Vince (and now TNA too) to change his business.

[Prophet 451]

48. TNA is less or a problem

Because of the way TNA does things, working for them full time just means four dates a month (two TV tapings, 1 PPV, 1 major house show), giving guys plenty of time off and because it's smaller, the politicking isn't as bad either. That's why Christian Cage jumped to TNA and Sabu and Ron Van Dam probably will in the near future. They've also been good about drug issues but in a very different way. WWE punishes you for getting caught, TNA rewards you for getting clean. I'm not sure which is the more successful approach though.

It's the big companies that are the problem; WWE, New Japan, All Japan. None of them provide insurance so guys keep working injured which inevitibly leads to drug problems. The other problem is the locker room culture of wrestling: Very macho, very insular, guys tend not to talk about their problems.

[Big Pappa]

82. I heard there

were sixty wrestlers under 45 that have died in the last ten years.

[Prophet 451]

83. I don't have the numbers to hand

But yeah, that seems easily believable. Just this year, we've lost Mike Alfonso/Mike Awesome (suicide), Bam Bam Bigelow (drugs), Sherri Martel (unknown pending tox results), Rocco Rock (heart attack), Mark Curtis (referree, cancer), Antonio Pena (HIV/AIDS), Flash Barker (heart attack), all under 45 and that's just the ones you might have heard of. You can also add Ernie Ladd, "Bad News" Alan Coage and Arnold Skaaland to the deaths but they were all old age (and cancer in Coage's case).

There's been about twenty wrestler deaths all together so far this year and about half of those were of workers under 45 so yeah, sixty seems perfectly possible.

This is a fucking brutal business. It uses people up, grinds them down and spits them out. And the boys keep doing it because they love to perform. Even with everything I've just said, I'd still be doing it if I could.

[AngryAmish]

38. Concussions too

The NFL is starting to wake up on this issue also.

I have dealt with brain inured people in my professional life. They look normal but a brain injury (multiple concussions) can really screw up your emotions and self control.

A friend of mine had a severe concussion and it has ruined his life. He broods on every perceived insult and has a dark rage he never had before.

I would hope there is a full autopsy so they can look at his brain. The effects of multiple concussions are evident on microscopic analysis.

That said, as much as I like his persona, he might have been a class A turd to his family. Some people are just evil.

[Prophet 451]

49. Good point

Wrestling has been really slow to wake up to this one. Chris Nowinski and Bret Hart both retired because of the effects of multiple concussions (several in a short time for Hart). I seem to have got away without any huge effect.

I guess you don't ever know what's going on behind closed doors. Everything anyone said about Benoit was good but it turns out that there was domestic violence going back at least four years. I dunno if he was just manipulating people into thinking he was a good guy or if he was only an asshole on occasion. I don't know what to think right now.

[mrcheerful]

9. What you didn't listen to life rule #1? Trust no one and trust yourself 1/2 of the time.

It always amazes me that people always seem to be taken off guard because of job position, wealth and power. In this day and age trust can get you killed. But then thats how murderers and thieves and rapists work, trust. Power, job or wealth doesn't cancel human nature nor make those super human. In fact they are sub human as there isn't a thing they won't do to get what they want.

[Wiregrass Willie]

10. I've known five professional wrestlers...

... over the years. Those five men had one thing in common. They were all crazy as hell. But not as crazy as people who pay to see them.

[Donnachaidh]

13. Will they NOW do drug-testing on these charlatans?

This uber-violent, misogynistic theatre of beat downs needs to be reined in HARD.

I thought the BS about McMahon being firebombed was beyond the pale. And after watching the cryfest last night about how GREAT this guy was... :grr:

[LostinVA]

15. "Misogynistic theatre "

THANK YOU! It's the main problem I have with professional wrestling.

[Prophet 451]

31. They have been for the last year

After Eddie Guerrero died suddenly last year, the WWE instituted a drug-testing program. While it's true that there's still a drug problem in wrestling, it seems to have had little to do with this case.

And in fairness to the WWE, when they tapen the tribute yesterday afternoon, almost nothing as known except that Benoit was dead. The rumour flying around at the time was carbon monoxide poisoning.

[librechik]

14. hmm, yes. I guy who pretends to beat the shit out of people for a living.

Can't imagine a guy like that getting physical around the house.

:sarcasm:

[Bucky]

17. Like Bruce Willis, Will Smith, Nick Cage, Jimmy Smits, Keanu Reeves, Matt Damon

Psychos, every one of 'em, right?

[Donnachaidh]

19. do any of the ones you've listed do STEROIDS?

Please. There's a HUGE difference between those groups.

[Bucky]

21. The comment I was responding to didn't mention steroids. Only acting tough for a living

Actually steroids is a pretty good suspect here for what might've tipped this guy over the edge. I mean, my God, he was a Canadian for crying out loud.

[Donnachaidh]

22. what does his nationality have to do with this?

Those big BAD Canadians do more steroids than the rest of those overgrown monsters in wrestling?

[Bucky]

24. Okay, I'm sending you some sense of humor pills now. Don't overdose.

So it's like, people make these things called 'jokes,' and the really familiar ones are called 'stock jokes.' One of those 'stock jokes' is about how Canadians are so polite all the time, see. And that stands in stark contrast to, say, murdering one's whole family over a weekend.

[Donnachaidh]

25. why don't you review the smilies section

and I won't tell you where you can put your humour pills.

[Rosemary2205]

44. Well I "got" it.

And it's true. Every Canadian I ever knew was painfully polite. :)

[AngryAmish]

40. Steroids are not unknown in Hollywood

Guys do have to look good with their shirt off.

[mondo joe]

23. That's pretty fucking stupid. Acting a part doesn't make you a killer.

:puke:

[Prophet 451]

33. Exactly

Every report of Benoit said he was the nicest guy in the world. He plays a part on TV, that doesn't make him "The Crippler" in real life. John Layfield plays a drunken redneck but still made a fortune from the stock market and works as a financial analyst. Leon White (Vader) is a real estate agent fer chris'sakes! It's just a role they play.

Although, it must be said, this business is littered with those who've taken the role far too seriously.

[FloridaJudy]

42. Exactly. Look at Carroll O'Connor

He spent five years portraying a right-wing bigot, but his own politics were very liberal, and he supported a lot of progressive causes.

[flvegan]

51. Hell

Bill Goldberg is an ASPCA spokesperson. Andy Martin (Test) donated a bunch of money he won on a tv competition to the local humane society.

Many nice guys in (and out) of the game.

[Prophet 451]

53. Bill Goldberg is a guy that weirds me out

Look at his public Goldberg persona: Big, tough, unstoppable monster, absolute machine.

Talk to Bill the man: ASPCA spokesman, vegetarian, such an animal lover his house looks like a frickin' zoo, life-long Democrat, donated a million of his own money to 9/11 relief workers.

Or look at David Arquette (he was briefly given the WCW title in an act of lunacy). Know what he did? Very quietly, without telling a soul, he split his paycheck between the families of Owen Hart, Brian Pillman and Darren Drozdov.

[flvegan]

54. I wish TNA would give him a deal

I like Goldberg (for the reasons above) and would love to see him back in the squared circle.

I didn't know that about Arquette. Nice move.

[Prophet 451]

56. They can't afford him

The highest salary in TNA is a downside of 500K (Sting and Kurt Angle are both on that). Bill's minimum asking price is 1.5 mill. Also, he's now 40, he's had injury problems and he's lost his passion for the business.

[librechik]

60. I'm responding to the original poster who found it hard to imagine

the guy ever doing violence. I thought THAT was stupid. Anybody is capapble of it, in the right circumstances. And more so, IMO, if you play with violence and retribution on the stage, pretending to be a tough guy.


:shrug:

[mondo joe]

62. WTF do you think is that makes ACTING a part more likely someone will DO the thing?

Did Archie Bunker make Carrol O'Conner more likely to be a racist?

Did The Owl & The Pussycat or Nuts make Barbra Streisand more likely to become a prostitute?

[librechik]

65. one more time

I'm saying I wonder why the original poster couldn't imagine the guy doing violence, since he did violent play everyday as part of his job. You see, I think seeing the guy throw people over his head and hit them a lot might almost spark your imagination, if you had one.


Obviously I don't think "acting" violent automatically makes you violent. Unlike your rude and thoughtless suggestion, I am not stupid. Rather, you need to learn how to read other people's posts better.

Word to the wise, using the F word in an accusatory manner, as you did to me twice, can get you alerted on, by less tolerant folks.

[mondo joe]

68. How to read posts better: "Anybody is capapble of it, in the right circumstances. And more so, IMO,

if you play with violence and retribution on the stage, pretending to be a tough guy."

More so?

What way should that be read?

[Louie the XIV]

26. LOL at roided up wrestler being "respected"

That could be part of the problem in America if people are looking up to these goofs.

[Prophet 451]

34. Goofs?

The commentator on Smackdown (John Layfield) is also a multi-millionaire from stock-market dealings and works as a financial analyst in his day job. Dwayne Johnson (The Rock) parlayed his fame into a movie career. Steve Austin was an academic All-American. Kurt Angle, Khrosrow Vaizairi (Iron Sheik), Danny Hodge and Alan Coage ("Bad News" Allan) were all Olympians. Brian Pillman suffered from recurrant cancer his entire life and managed to compete for the Cincinati Bengals as well as wrestling. Leon White (Vader) has made a small fortune as a real estate agent. Mike Alfonso (Mike Awesome) was in the process of doing the same until he hanged himself (his wife was divorcing him).

You don't like wrestling, that's fair enough but don't confuse the characters these guys play on TV with who they are in real life. Benoit's crimes (if they turn out to be crimes which looks likely at this point) aren't an indictment of all wrestlers anymore than OJ was an indictment of every guy that plays pro football.

[slj0101]

35. And lest we forget,

Best-selling author, "Hardcore Legend", and card-carrying Democrat Mick Foley.

[Prophet 451]

37. Active Democrat too

At one point, he had a live debate on Smackdown with John Layfield (representing the neo-con Repubs) and he's been a very active part of voter registration drives.

Yesterday, I would have passed on the accounts of him as a really nice guy too (albeit, so cheap he uses rope to hold his pants up) bu today, that seems out of place.

[Louie the XIV]

39. This would be relevant if people cheered for the men behind the characters

but they don't. I doubt most wrasslin fans know about their favorite star's real estate holdings they cheer for the roided up goofs smashing chairs on each other and screaming at the camera.

[Prophet 451]

41. OK, but you're talking about the fans there, not teh workers

Look, I'm feeling a little defensive right now. I was in this business and followed it for most of my life. Everytime something happens (although this is the worst ever) everyone starts looking at all wrestlers and ex-wrestlers as potential serial killers.

I'm sorry, I don't know what teh fuck to say right now, we've all been blown away by this.

[Rosemary2205]

43. Pillman played for the Bengals?

Gee thanks. Thats a new one on me. I know someone who will LOVE that bit of "useless trivia". :)

[Prophet 451]

45. Yep, 84-86

He also played for the Miami Redskins (his college team) and set new records for "tackles for loss", the Calgary Stampeders (86) and was the last man cut from the Bills preseason in 85.

[Cronopio]

50. You can only trust people so far who subscribe to these memes.

"You have to sell yourself."
"Everything is a commodity." (corollary: "Reputation is a commodity that must be developed and sold.")
"Image is everything."
"What is said about you is more important than who you are."
"Those who are well regarded are entitled to get away with more."
"Just grow up and sell out."
"Shit isn't created, it just happens."
"If everybody is wrong, then nobody is wrong."
"Don't think, react."
"I have ... to fit ... in." (corollary: "It's hip to be square.")

I wouldn't want this to be mistaken for cynicism. I just believe that enough trust has been cashed out for profit in this hypercapitalist society, and that it would be a good idea for everyone to spend more time nurturing real, living and breathing relationships than the tactical, commodified variety. But since most people appear to disagree with that, believing that sociopathy is only an individual issue and not an adaptive social phenomenon, the Chris Benoits and Patrick Batemans will continue to fool a lot of people.

But then again, maybe I should just grow up and sell out. :) (Cue "Sussudio".)

[Prophet 451]

52. You might be right

He fooled everyone. Everyone said he was a straight-up guy but to survive in the wrestling business, you pretty much have to subscribe to most of those phrases (with the exception of fitting in, in wrestling you want to stand out so I guess that makes eccentricity normal?).

Y'know, this is one of those times when I wonder if the guys on the small-time indie circuit don't have it better. OK, they don't get paid much but they're usually not in it for the money. They're in it for the love of performing.

[ikojo]

87. These are corporate values as well

Well, pro sports is all corporate that is for sure.

[Prophet 451]

55. UPDATE

It's now confirmed by the local police force. Chris Benoit bound and stranged his wife Nancy (43) on Friday, suffocated his son Daniel (7) with a plastic bag on Saturday and hanged himself with a cord from a weightlifting machine either late Saturday or early Sunday. Bibles were placed with the bodies of Nancy and Daniel.

Anabolic steroids and prescription painkillers were found on the property. However, the circumstances and the fact that Nancy had previously filed for divorce on domestic violence make roid rage seem unlikely. It's horrible to say but it looks like this was premeditated.

And the feeling of being repeatedly kicked in the balls continues...

[JVS]

58. I can't see this as pre-meditated, it's too fucked up for that.

It sounds like he lost it and started to panic the after a bit.

[Rosemary2205]

59. Prophet

I just wanted to tell you that I really appreciate your insightful posts in these threads -- and the maturity in which they are posted. I get the feeling from your posts that this affects people you personally know and I really feel for you. I can't imagine what Benoit's family and closest friends are going through - wondering what they could have done to stop it -- wondering why they didn't see it coming -- wondering...........

I posted this thread because of questions about trust issues. But your posts in this thread have widened my thinking about this. Because we are all friends, siblings, neighbors. Plus I am in HR and I have a voice that is listened to on how our employees are treated -- what benefits are available to them when life gets overwhelming and what sort of culture our business has toward it's employees. Your posts have made me think about those thing and I really appreciate it.

And in case you could use one of these


:hug:
Rosemary

[Prophet 451]

64. Thanks luv

I think that's what we're all wondering right now, why didn't we see this coming? Why didn't we know he was knocking Nancy around?

Christ, I dread to think how Dean's feeling (Dean Malenko), yesterday he'd lost two of his best friends in a year but now...?

[Arugula Latte]

61. Putting Bibles with the bodies ... that's just perfect.

I'm sure the All Powerful Hovering Invisible Sky Fairy and His Son Jesus The Wonder Primate will forgive Benoit now ...

[Prophet 451]

66. I think that's kinda harsh

Granted, Benoit was clearly not in his right mind at the time. Granted also, I have no great love of Christianity (I'm actually a Satanist) but a lot of people draw comfort from their faith so I think ripping on it right now is a little distasteful.

[Prophet 451]

63. FURTHER UPDATE

If anyone wants to quit reading at this point, I really wouldn't blame you.

WWE have confirmed that the last steroid test taken (paid for but not performed by WWE) was on April 10th and Benoit tested negative.

Further update: It's emerged in the last few minutes that... I'm trying to think of how to phrase this. Daniel's body had several marks from injections and no, not just the usual childhood jabs and no, this wasn't just from Benoit going off his nut in the last couple of days, some of them were old. Working theory at the moment, based on the drugs found in the house (legally prescribed, at least nominally) was that the boy was being injected with steroids and/or HGH. I have no fucking clue what to say about that.

[OzarkDem]

67. Young athletes taking steroids

Yikes, there was an article about this in the news the other day. While not commonplace, apparently a recent study found even pre-adolescent athletes are doing steroids these days. Terrible trend. Who knows what was going on with that poor child, but we know kids of that age aren't able to make good judgments on their own about this kind of thing..

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/psychiatryNews/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=200000214&cid=BreakingNews

[Prophet 451]

70. Bur he was seven, for fuck's sake!

I don't know what the hell was going on there but at seven, he was on teh fucking gas?

EDIT: Sorry if that sounded like I was pissed at you, mate.

[OzarkDem]

77. No, you're right

Something was really messed up, major mental health issues going on there.

Several years ago a friend of my parents did something similar, worse actually. Upstanding businessman and community leader killed his wife, adult kids and grandchildren. He apparently had a bad problem with chronic depression and may have been on the wrong medication.

[cynatnite]

71. Do you have a link to that? n/t

[Prophet 451]

74. Sure

ABC have some of the details ( http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=3315501&page=1 ).

The injections part comes from Rick Scacia ( http://www.onlineonslaught.com/columns/oo/20070626.shtml ). It's at the bottom of the article. I should point out here that Rick has established a reputation over the years of being about as close to a real reporter as wrestling has. ESPN and the sheets have the same info (although the sheets are careful to point out that this really doesn't look like roid rage).

[cynatnite]

75. Just a thought...

and I know I'm speculating. I wonder if Nancy found out what Chris was doing to Daniel and was going to file charges against him. Chris found out and got there before anything could be done.

Thanks for the link.

[Prophet 451]

76. I dunno what to think right now

And that's the honest truth. The details emerging make this look more and more like premeditated murder (Nancy was bound hand and foot and strangled with some kind of cable) over the course of at least two days and throw this in... This is starting to seem like something from a horror flick...

[cynatnite]

78. That was well written...

Rick expressed a lot of what I felt.

[Prophet 451]

81. Yeah, he's good for that n/t

[dsc]

69. I admit to being a casual wrestling fan in my younger years

I was admittedly attracted to some wrestlers. Buff bodies in tight, speedo like outfits, what was not to like. But clearly Benoit was a messed up man. I guess it shouldn't be shocking that a wrestling culture bound up with racism, homophobia, and sexism would produce an occassional case of an abusive spouse. I hope Mrs. Benoit and the child find the peace that so eluded them in life. This is yet another example of the fact that just because we see someone every week on the TV we don't really know them.

[Prophet 451]

73. True but...

I was in this business, I worked with people who worked with him and everythign everybody said was that he was the nicest guy, a real straight-shooter. Granted, that's second and third-hand reports but no-one ever had a bad word to say about him. I suppose you never really know what someone is like behind closed doors.

And although homophobia and sexism are fair comment, wrestling is far less racist now than it once was. Granted, there are still terrible cases ("Cryme Tyme" for example) but in general, it's better than it was.

[cynatnite]

72. I'm still sickened by all this...

My husband and I are in complete shock and we basically said the same thing to each other last night on the phone. You can never really know what goes on behind closed doors or what any one person is truly capable of.

[Rex]

79. "I think we are pretty confident it was a murder-suicide," Ballard said.

[Prophet 451]

84. ANOTHER UPDATE

During the night, a few things have emerged.
- WWE has (quite rightly) pulled the tribute package (taped before any details were known) from it's international distribution and it's website. They've also pulled Benoit's profile.

- It's now been confirmed that Benoit received deliveries from an online pharmacy selling steroids, HGH and testosterone. We don't know what was delivered yet and from what little we know right now, it seems Benoit wasn't using them himself, seems to have been injecting his son with them and this certainly wasn't a roid rage snap. This seems to have been premeditated. The pharmacy was busted last month with six people already pleading guilty and another twenty awaiting trial.

- Since they'd already leaked out, WWE has released the five text messages which raised the alarm. One simply says “The dogs are in the enclosed pool area. Garage side door is open”. WWE doesn't say but from context, that one was probably sent to one of his close friends. Another four, including three from Nancy's cellphone simply gave his address to various people.

Jesus fucking Christ, this is like something out of a nightmare...

[ikojo]

86. This straight shooting nice man cared more for

his dogs than he did his child and wife?

Fine upstanding character that man!

Why don't these folks who do the murder suicide just do the suicide part?

I read yesterday that he had two kids from a previous relationship, I wonder how old they are and what they think of this? I guess now they are happy they didn't live with him.

[Prophet 451]

89. Somewhere in their late-teens

I can't remember exactly how old they are but based on how long he and Nancy had been a couple, they would be somewhere in their late teens by now.

We all thought he was a nice guy. I guess he fooled everyone.

[Vektor]

98. I don't understand - maybe this is a dumb question...

But WHY was he injecting the child with steroids? I don't understand the rationale behind that.

[Prophet 451]

99. Nor do I but I can make a guess

Daniel suffered from a genetic disorder called Fragile X Syndrome. Among other things, Fragile X can cause stunted development. It's possible that Benoit (and/or possibly Nancy) was injecting the boy with steroids in some deranged attempt to treat his disability.

No, that doesn't make sense but it seems likely right now that Benoit was out of his mind for the last few weeks of his life and that's the closest I can guess as to motive.

[Vektor]

102. Oh, I see.

Ok, I understand Fragile X syndrome. I didn't know the boy had that disorder. I'm a nurse, and I was thinking of both the on and off-label uses for steroids, and trying to figure out what Benoit was trying to accomplish.

This makes a little more sense. Obviously, not an appropriate treatment, but considering the state of mind benoit was in toward the end, it makes more sense now.

Thanks.

[Triana]

88. Let's talk about narcissists, psychopaths, and other personality disorders...

....not to mention 'roid rage' (people on steriods, which apparently have some pretty 'animalistic' side-effects on them).

Abusers and the psychologically disordered MOST OFTEN appear in public as very intelligent, charismatic, well-regarded by their peers and friends - in society. "Mr. Wonderful!" NO ONE would ever believe they'd be abusive!

ONLY in private does their abuse surface - the violence, verbal, emotional, sexual and physical abuse is usually 'saved' for their nearest and dearest.

THIS IS WHY NO ONE BELIEVES many women when they talk about how abusive their husbands are. Because they're so "wonderful" -- to everyone ELSE - in PUBLIC.

THIS serves to marginalize the victim(s) of abuse, and it serves as a 'shield' - a 'cover' for the abuser. They USE other people for this cover.

See http://www.youarenotcrazy.com for more about this "Jekyll/Hyde" personality that so many abusers exhibit. Then, they'll often say "well no one ELSE has any issues with me, why do YOU!" - to their victim. They'll call the VICTIM "crazy" or "angry" after doing EVERYTHING in their power to deliberately hurt, provoke and upset them. They get a sense of POWER out of "pushing people's buttons" and getting a reaction out of them. This keeps the abuser IN CONTROL - the get HIGH off it, just like an addict gets off on drugs.

Also see http://www.geocities.com/misogynon/physical.htm - for another very accurate explanation of their behavior.

These people are emotional predators - they have serious personality issues, anger issues, and often drug and alcohol additions in addition to their POWER addictions.

[Prophet 451]

90. This one wasn't roid rage

There are three reasons we can be pretty sure this wasn't roid rage. Firstly, Nancy was tied up before she was strangled with a length of cable, that suggests premeditation, not a rage-fuelled "snap". Secondly, his last steroid test was April 10th and came back clean. Thirdly, it now appears that the steroids found in the house were being injected into his son in some deranged attempt to treat Daniel's disability.

That said, the tests only check for steroids and recreational drugs. Benoit would have been a long way from the first wrestler to be abusing prescription drugs (the abuse of prescription drugs is epidemic in wrestling, my addiction to prescription painkillers was what forced me out).

As for the rest, you're right. Thing is, we all know this but we're still shocked when this kind of thing happens. He seemed like a straight-up guy. I guess everyone was fooled.

[Breeze54]

91. " Because they're so "wonderful" -- to everyone ELSE - in PUBLIC. "

"THIS IS WHY NO ONE BELIEVES many women when they talk about how abusive their husbands are. "

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

````````````````````````````````````````````````

Abuse doesn't have a poverty threshold!!!

[Prophet 451]

92. Agreed, but...

On this occasion, no-one knew it was going on. Nancy filed for divorce in 2003 citing domestic violence but that was dropped and it was kept so quiet that even Benoit's superiors and closest friends had no idea. Nancy seems to have told virtually no-one. Someone who understands the psychology at work there could probably explain that better than I could but we can probably factor in the wrestling culture at the time. When Nancy broke into the business in the late-seventies/early-eighties, women in the business had to almost out-macho the guys to get any respect. That's a little better these days but not much.

Everything I ever heard about Benoit was positive, a great guy, real stand-up gent. I'm only starting to realise now how that fits a pattern I already knew about. I think a lot of us are feeling the same way. We'd probably heard that abusers tended to be Mr. Clean outside the home but still, not him, not Benoit, you can't believe it of him.

I suspect Benoit's closest friends (and I'm not, I'm a couple of degrees removed) are asking themselves that right now: How did they not know what was going on, how did they not see this coming?

One thing I think has become obvious is that this business is going to have to change. This is by far the worst but the mortality rate for wrestlers is something insane like 400% higher than normal. The pressure to change has been slowly building for years and I think this is going to force the issue.

[Breeze54]

93. "Nancy filed for divorce in 2003 citing DOMESTIC VIOLENCE"

What part of that didn't his family and friends understand??

Did they think that kind of behavior goes away??

Seems glaring to me!!

People used to think my ex was quite the charmer!

"So personable and smart and creative!!"

And a total mutha fucka behind closed doors!! :grr:

She filed CALLED OUT for HELP when she filed!!!

And anyone taking 'roids is an asshole on a daily basis!

I've known people who were and the rages and anger were there all the time!!

[Prophet 451]

94. The freinds didn't know

The nature of the modern wrestling business means that you're often away from home for weeks or months at a time. You do a week or two weeks on the road, spend a day, perhaps two at home and then you're off on the road again. What that means is that his friends very rarely met Nancy, usually only at company events and Benoit just didn't tell them. They didn't know about the abuse. Even his superiors in the company didn't know. Because of the weird way wrestling contracts are structured, workers and management are under no obligation to tell each other anything and he didn't.

For his family? I have no idea. They must have known, I don't know why they didn't do anything.

The evidence we have right now says that Benoit wasn't roiding and this certainly wasn't roid rage. The crimes were methodical and deliberate, not the kind of thing you see in a rage murder. Benoit was last steroid tested on April 10th and that came back clean. Granted, it's possible he worked out some way to beat the test but that will have to wait for the tox results to come in. Although steroids were discovered in the house, it seems likely, based on current evidence, that those were being injected into his son in some deranged attempt to treat Daniel's disability.

In short, from what we know right now, Benoit doesn't seem to have been roiding (although that may change with further info) and this definately wasn't a roid rage murder. From what we know right now, this was a man with some very extreme mental issues murdering his wife and son. Horrible crime and the wrestling business is going to have to do some soul-searching about how we didn't see this coming but not roid rage.

[Triana]

96. He might be just a plain ol sociopathic abuser type...no roid rage..

...that would be most typical.

Families are often not supportive of abuse victims. MY OWN was not. Even if they know they "don't want to get involved" or want to "let them work it out themselves" - BUT --

ABUSE THRIVES on SILENCE and enabling behavior. Staying silent/uninvolved is NOT the answer - lest the outcome be like this story...

[Prophet 451]

97. That seems most likely right now

No-one outside the family knew about the abuse. Add in the deliberate nature of the murders and this does look more like your typical psycho abuser.

I think a lot of us right now are asking ourselves how we could not have known. He fit the stereotype perfectly (Mr. Nice outside the home), how could we not have seen this coming?

[Breeze54]

101. Read this and learn how abusers operate.

http://www.googobits.com/articles/p0-2446-inside-the-mind-of-an-abuser-what-you-need-to-know.html">Inside the Mind of an Abuser: What you Need to Know

Most of it describes my ex, to a T. Probably your wrestler friend too.

[Prophet 451]

103. Textbook, it's textbook. n/t

[Breeze54]

104. Sad to hear it.

It's to bad more people don't recognize the warning signs.
I know I didn't but back then Domestic Violence was not well
known and no one used that term. You'd hear about wife beating
but the police did nothing much to stop it or as little as possible.

[Vektor]

100. Also, Prophet, A lot of guys who appear nice and upstanding...

actually ARE. That's why it's so hard to tell what's really going on behind closed doors with people who are messed up deep down.

If it was only abusers and murderers that "seemed so nice and upstanding" then they'd be easy to spot a mile away, right? Genuinely nice people appear nice too. The abusers who have a likable public persona are successfully blending in with the masses who are NOT criminals, and ARE really good people.

That's why nobody suspected Benoit was capable of this. He came across just like any other likable guy - most of whom are genuinely just that. Problem was, nobody could see the demons he was dealing with.

How could they? Some people hide it so well, ya know?

I'm so sorry about this.

[Triana]

95. Yep. That's it - Abusers always have a passel of "allies" for cover...

...and those allies are everyone but the victim/target - co-workers, social groups, even other family members. This serves to discredit, isolate, and marginalize her, and additionally to make her believe that something must be "wrong with her" as he insists there is.

Google: crazymaking or gaslighting.

And no abuse doesn't have a poverty threshhold. Abusive relationships can and DO exist at all echelons of society - ALL of them. So do narcissists and psychopaths. From skid row all the way to the White House and everywhere in between.

[sniffa]

105. hang in there baby