Impeachment Impressions

[Mythsaje]

I haven't really commented on the whole impeachment idea yet because I've been mulling it over in my head. I don't think there's any doubt that they deserve it. More than deserve it, actually. If you could impeach them multiple times, if you had the time, I'm almost certain there's enough evidence for it and then some.

I'm not sure if there's the political will on the Hill to make it happen, though. Pelosi said from the beginning that it was "off the table." A lot of people groaned at that, and she hasn't won any fans here on DU for making that statement. Obama recently came out and said that he didn't support impeachment.

I see the argument that they impeached Clinton over a blow job (or lying to Congress and getting caught, which is the real crime here), so why shouldn't Bush and Cheney be held accountable for far worse crimes?

They should be. But I think one of the things that holds them back is knowing that they're already locked into a cycle of tit-for-tat with the Republicans, and are afraid that if they do, it'll come back to haunt them later. They're hoping for a Democratic Presidential win in 08, and are fearful that, should they impeach Bush, or even TRY to impeach Bush, it'll ramp up the noise machine and it'll be a constant battle for the next Democrat to hold the office.

I'm just guessing here. We already know that some of the Republicans consider Clinton's impeachment a pay-back for what happened to Nixon. Nixon was crazier than the proverbial shithouse rat, but, compared to Bush, he was a saint. I think behind his paranoia and craziness, there was a decent man in there somewhere.

Not so with this crowd. Bush may WANT to be a decent man (this is a reach, I realize), but his heart is about the size of the Grinch's before his awakening, little more than a cold hunk of coal the size of a thumbnail.

Cheney IS Darth Vader, for all intents and purposes. More machine than man, animated by will and malice alone.

The problem with impeachment, I see, is that the only ones willing to pursue it are the ones who have nothing to fear. Either they have no hope of attaining the office of the President (regardless of whether they're running or not), or they consider it a mostly empty gesture to even bring it up at this point in time. It's political grandstanding, in a way, since there's not enough support to even bring it the floor.

I wish there was a way WE could do it. It was something that the founders left out of the Constitution, even with all their vaunted wisdom and foresight. That one day the people would see the need to excise a cancer in their midst and would not be able to press their "representatives" to make the hard decisions to make it happen.

Our only option, at this point, is to keep up the pressure, and hope that the investigations dredge up enough filth that it becomes impossible to ignore its stench. I believe that if we reach the point where even the corporate media can't bury the stink anymore, and is forced to directly address the fracturing of its last vestiges of credibility, the media will provide the last impetus for Congress to act.

Or maybe this will grind out for another year and a half and nothing at all will be done. Bush will leave office gracefully, if not untarnished, and the Republicans will manage not to get dragged down with him through sheer good fortune and the Democratic Party's oft-abused ability to forgive and forget.

Which would TRULY suck on a momumental, historical level.

If I was a betting man, however, I'd lay odds on the latter.

I'd dearly love to be wrong.

[Tunkamerica]

1. Wouldn't cheney be the emperor?

with Rove as his Darth Vader?

[pat_k]

15. Isn't he already? Unchallenged? (Only impeachment says NO!)

Can't rationalize impeaching Bush w/o Cheney, they are partners in crimes.

But even if we "got Cheney" so what? We've already "Got Cheney." And he and Bush are openly violating the Constitution to grab ever more unconstitutional power, effectively daring Congress to stop them. (And when Congress fails, the Fascists say "See? The power is ours to keep and use as we please!")

[AndyTiedye]

2. We Can Send them to the Hague Even After They Pardon Themselves/Each Other

[leftofthedial]

3. impeachment of an oligarch will never happen

there is neither justice nor the rule of law in Amurka

[some guy]

4. Why do you think Bush will leave office

at all, much less gracefully?

The maladministration has spent the past six-and-a-half years amassing power, and discarding the rule of law. Do you think they'll really just say, "Well, that was fun, thanks. The rules say we have to leave now, so we'll be off."

I think it less likely each day that passes.

[Mythsaje]

5. We'll see...

I just don't see that happening. It may be the last card they play, but it would be a very dangerous one indeed.

[warren pease]

20. But who's going to stop them?

Congress can't be relied on to stand in the way. The DoJ will never declare them in violation of Constitutional law and arrest them. Even if arrested, federal courts are packed to the rafters with wingnut BushCo appointees and are unlikely to rule against their benefactors. And even if they do, there's always the appeal to the highest court in the land.

The Supreme Court members were picked specifically because they could be relied upon to fabricate credible legal justifications that provide cover for absolutely unlawful right wing policies, and they can be counted on to find something unconstitutional about the 22nd amendment. Something to do with artificially denying the voters their lawful right to choose any candidate, no matter their resume, in violation of Article ..., section Blah, blah blah... They'll find something fuzzy, and will interpret it to support the continued reign of BushCo.

The people -- and I mean 20 or 30 million of them, many armed and dangerous -- show no signs of giving enough of a damn to take the battle to the streets. The national guard or regular military may have trouble firing on fellow citizens -- although they never have in the past when there's a strike to be broken or a local revolt to be crushed -- but there's always Blackwater to act as the enforcement arm of the BushCo coup, along with the usual hundreds of robocobs who've been just dying to put their training into action.

Then there's FEMA and the DHS, both of which demonstrated their standard ineptitude and BushCo loyalties during the Katrina disaster. And they're almost certain to be joined by the millions of demented lock-and-load BushBots who simply can't get enough malice and repression from their government, although they manage to blame that repression on the huge percentage of Americans who profess to loathe BushCo and everything it stands for.

So absent armed intervention by, say, the combined forces of the EU, along with Russia and possibly China, who's going to get in their way? If they decide to flip off the Constitution for the zillionth time, who's willing to step up and say "Basta! This criminality ends here."

I keep thinking of that incredible picture of the Chinese student facing down a phalanx of tanks in Tienanmen (sp?) Square almost 20 years ago. Is there a single person left in this country with that kind of courage? Is there anyone still out there with the toughness and audacity to put themselves on the line for such ephemeral concepts as human dignity and the refusal to accept or even acknowledge governmental authority when used to suppress the individual?

If so, the country awaits this hero, and millions like him or her. If not -- if there's not a single American left who values their birthright over the life and times of Paris Hilton -- then we're not really worth saving and we deserve to be ground into the dust by the fascist boot that's already poised about an inch above our skulls, ready to pound us into the sod like a tent pin the very second the last brave and angry American says "fuck it" and starts channel flipping for more Paris coverage.

Wish I could share your optimism, such as it is, but there are too many pieces in place already that suggest martial law and subsequent seizure of all three branches of government in the event of some real or fabricated "emergency." And if that happens, good luck getting the country back for a long, long time. Keep your powder dry and your passport close at hand.


wp

[KharmaTrain]

6. Political Grandstanding Is A Major Problem

Kudos to your thinking this issue out as rationally as you could. Sadly, emotions grab hold here and it makes serious discussions difficult.

The big issue is that Impeachment IS political. It's not criminal. It is symbolic. It has no legal teeth in righting wrongs that this regime has occured repeatedly and brazenly over the past 6 years...and primarily by those who are outside the reach of impeachment...non-elected aparachniks. It's the Sara Taylors and Tim Griffins and the other worker ants inside this regime that made it as destructive...and they continue to infest. Impeachment lets these people off the hook...they can vanish into the woodwork to re-emerge 5 or 10 years later...totally un-repentant. This is a lesson of Watergate people are missing here. The ones that got away in that scandal came back later...so did the crooks in Iran-Contra. They all had a home in the boooosh regime.

The argument against impeachment isn't about "will" or doing "what's right" or "condoning what went on". It's being realistic and playing things smart. People's expectations of Impeachment are very high here...and they think it's a simple procedure. It isn't. And an impeachment is a wrist slap...without conviction it means zero. Boooshie can go on waging his wars for profit and feel he's bulletproof as he withstood the "test". Repugnicans will be energized, Democrats demoralized (the knives will be thick out here) and the corporate media will paint Democrats as weak and inept right as the elections kick into high gear. And it's not because of Democrats, but because there aren't 17 Repugnicans with the sense to put country and Constitution ahead of party and personal gain.

True justice for this regime belongs in the courts...with prosecutors, evidence, indictments, trials and convictions. This regime's greatest crime was against the rule of law...and it should be that law that their justice is truly served. Be it in our own courts...or my preference...one that is outside the possible taint of GOOP judges...and that's in The Hague.

Congress needs to investigate and move the agenda away from the Repugnican slash & burn tactics of the past. In only 5 months look at how many rocks have been over-turned...and we're just starting to peel away at the layers of corruption underneath. Whatever convictions have occured so far have been due to this regime's hubris...they got too cocky. There's a lot more under the surface that needs to be rooted out and Congressional investigations are the best way to accomplish this. An impeachment draws away resources and focus from these important investigations. I'll trust when I hear Henry Waxman...a man whose followed this corruption all the way through...says its time to Impeach. So far he's been mum on the subject.

We have so many problems to deal with in this country...and the focus has to be on what can be done, not what can't be. Without 17 Repugnicans willing to convict, it can't be done. Wishing won't make it so...saying "they just have to" doesn't make it so. I've seen a Trent Lott vote to convict Clinton, but totally exonerate Nixon when he was on the House Judiciary Committee during Watergate. Do you think he'd vote to convict boooshie? And he's considered a "moderate".

Thank you for your post...be prepared for being flamed or called a defeatist, but I see far bigger issues that need our attention and many crimes yet to be investigated. If we are dilligent, we will get justice...it just will take longer than many here would prefer.

[elocs]

7. Good points for the many here who believe that impeachment is the be-all and end-all for everything.

That's even without conviction, which they have supreme faith will magically take care of itself. Impeachment and conviction of a president is simply firing him, it is not a political matter. Since no president in our history has been impeached and convicted, it is not very likely to say the least. If it did happen, for that president to end up in the Hague is no more than fantasy because it has no connection with reality other than in the minds of those who wish it to happen. If things happened because you really, really want them to happen I would have won the Powerball by now.

[marions ghost]

12. No Impeachment isn't everything but

it's a damn good start. To defend an Impeachment effort would be punishing and damaging for the administration. Also it would send the right message to anyone who dares to support the spectacular abuses we have endured under this regime. The opportunists just waiting to capitalize on a corrupt situation would be thwarted for now.

Impeachment is very much a political matter. If we don't do it, we are handing them a home free card that will ensure that such abuses continue far into the future. Maybe the Repugs can control the outcome of an Impeachment process but it will go down in history that we tried everything we had to remove the most arrogant, corrupt, and sinister leaders our country has ever seen. And a lot of very interesting information would come to light. We NEED that information.

Impeachment is the only weapon we've got. It would slow them down somewhat. If Impeachment is not initiated in these circumstances, you might as well throw the constitution away. Jonathan Turley (Law prof & constitutional scholar at GW) said the other night on Olbermann that there is clear evidence of violation of federal laws relating to unauthorized secret wiretapping. This offense alone is impeachable, not to mention all the other violations & abuses we know about. We do have a strong case against them, and it NEEDS to be tested.

So if you were basing your opinion strictly on LEGAL grounds here, you WOULD go for Impeachment. To argue otherwise is to put the option into the political arena, where strategies and appearances weigh heavily. Thus you undermine your own contention that "Impeachment is not a political matter."

[MissWaverly]

9. disagree, we will not get justice w/o impeachment

Bush has packed the court, he made the Chief Justice, his "helper" in the 2000 recount. Who do you think will prosecute Bush?
After 3 years of investigation, only an underling was convicted in Plame. There has been no accountability for Katrina or 9-11?
I am sorry, but I see them giggling their way out of the White House with no consequences. Now we hear that the "Dems" are meeting
behind closed doors to pass Trade Legislation that the majority of America disapproves of, but Bush loooooooooves. Now the
Dems are even funding money for faith based abstinence programs that the majority of America disapproves of, but Bush
loooooooves. You may want to ask yourself, why the Dems are rushing to push legislation for an unpopular president polling
at 26%. After the 2008 election, it will all be about "healing" and "moving forward" with pardons for all. GITMO will remain
open, the Iraq War will rage on for just one last effort (another 5 years at least), and our tax dollars will be squandered
on military budgets, Blackwater and corporate welfare (bailout of Sub-Prime mortgage investment firms), giving Wall Street
a free ride in the housing market decline thru risky investment mortgages.

[KharmaTrain]

10. And How Does Impeachment Fix What You Describe?

Especially without a conviction?

"Only an underling"...but that was just also only one investigation. And what were the results? A prosecution from a Repugnican who was appointed by boooshie, tried in front of a Repugnican judge...picked by poppy. The jury wasn't Repugnican...and they approved the indictment and then had a near unanimous verdict. Also look at boooshie's record in the courts on Gitmo and other recent cases.

While I share your cynicism about the justice system...especially the SCOTUS, I also see a lot of Fitzgeralds and other out there who put the law and Constitution ahead of politics. I'd rather put my faith in someone whose responsible directly to the Constitution than to a ballot box.

[MissWaverly]

13. I think that it would get around executive privilege

which cannot be used in impeachment proceedings, and they will continue to stonewall and when they leave there will be a top
secret classified status on all their documents due to National Security for the next 50 years. And they will skate w/o
prosecution.

[KharmaTrain]

14. No Matter Which Way It Ends Up In A Court...

Neither you nor I can predict how much "Executive Prilidge" will be allow and what wouldn't. As I have posted previously, this regime's record with the lower courts have been horrendous and I suspect the privilidge won't extend anywhere as far down the food chain as the "decidereerererer" thinks...but no matter what...the only way to move all cases against this regime, including impeachment, will be through the courts so that privilidge can be define and applied. Nixon bet on it covering his tapes...it didn't.

Again...what is to be gained with impeachment? I still haven't heard an answer...and I don't expect to. How will this end the Iraq invasion or move forward Democratic programs? Especially an impeachment without a conviction. I guess I'll keep waiting...

[MissWaverly]

17. Okay, how about this argument

it will re-establish to precedent to have the president and the vice-president act within the confines of the rule of law, and it
may prevent the bombing of Iran as an option to these two. Okay, if Bush was Gerald Ford type, I would be willing to "throw the
bums out" in 2008. But he isn't and Dick Cheney is not Chuck Hagel. He is a seasoned and ruthless government exec who treats the
White House like his own Fortune 500 company. They accept no boundaries at all and are capable of anything. Remember the nuclear
option is still on the table with these two.

[KharmaTrain]

18. A Dock In The Hague Solves That

Nothing more. What you're describing, and I agree, are war crimes and crimes against humanity. They, along with a dozen other enablers of this regime, need to be held responsible for the blood on their hands. I'm hoping the case against Rumsfeld and other cases in European courts move through...outside the reach of this regime. Ya think having the two sitting on trial wouldn't be a deterent for any future President?

The best to play with now is to undercut boooshie's ability to go into Iran or any other misadventure...and that by slowing cutting off his political support and forcing him to stay on the defensive. Bring the political pressures of his own inept party and the need to put out fires on the homefront. The more that's brought to light through investigations, the further in check this regime goes. It also is bringing forward many of the crooks who did the real dirty work...who would have heard of Monica Goodling or Sara Taylor?

My concern is the pardon power...thus my hopes for international law to supercede. Actually there's a part of me who hopes there are few prosecutions until after boooshie leaves so he can't pardon all his buddies.

Give some of us some credit. History will be the cruelest judge of this regime Next year the GOOP will suffer for their greed and it will take years to wash the taint of boooosh off the party. That's also a future deterant.

In the end, I support the Consitution...but also the rule of law. I want accountablity by all...not two being used as an "example".

Cheers...

[MissWaverly]

19. Have you seen any real accountability for Rummie

or how about John Ashcroft, that is what we have to look forward to without impeachment and I would also throw in Mr. Duct Tape
aka Tom Ridge, there barely is a trial going on for the bugman, who may also skate, skate, skate.

[mmonk]

11. The department of justice is corrupt and political.

All political crimes are not codified in law, especially many constitutional matters. So how do you keep or sustain the constitution if those in power decide not to follow? Call us anything you want. Call us emotional. Call any politicians or group like the ACLU or citizen grandstanding on this issue if you want. But that's your opinion, not some established fact, and quite a charge to throw at us.

[mmonk]

8. You are.

Impeachment is not political grandstanding if you have a case of impeachable crimes and you are a member of the House. It is your primary duty as office holder.

To not uphold the constitution with its checks and balances and the law of the land for any purpose much less for political purposes concerning elections you may or may not win or to receive influence money and lying about your reasoning is closer to grandstanding.

[lonestarnot]

16. hmmmf. Clinton has nothing to do with impeachment of bushitler and dickwad.

Criminals have no place in our government. And Dennis is gaining support. Stand back.