3-yr old kicked off plane after throwing tantrum

[FourScore]

I can't help but wonder...were there any adults on board this plane?

http://www.salon.com/wire/ap/archive.html?wire=D8MR41C02.html

Flight attendants often deal with obnoxious passengers who won't listen to instructions by kicking them off the plane. But a Massachusetts couple think AirTran Airways went overboard by treating their crying 3-year-old daughter in much the same way.

Julie and Gerry Kulesza and daughter Elly were removed from the flight when the girl refused to take her seat before takeoff, airline officials said Tuesday. But her parents said they just needed a little more time to calm her down...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

1. I, for one, applaud this decision.

[michreject]

155. I agree with you

When I go to nice restaurants, I sit in the smoking section, even thought I don't smoke, in order to get away from unruly children.

[Radio_Lady]

277. Oh, dear... that's something I could NOT do. Smoking makes me physically ill;

since I carry earplugs on a plane, as well as an MP3 device with music and books, I would have used one or another of those.

[RPM]

196. Amen

If you can't behave like an adult for 3 hours, don't expect the privlige of traveling like an adult.

It's high time they made a stand on this; I can't believe how many stupid parents dont seem to understand that Tyler or Kaitlin's PSP has to have a earphones on the plane and that they can't use it during takeoff or landing.

Kudos to Airtran.

[cboy4]

267. They should bolt seats to the wing and make crabby kids sit

their asses out there rather than make me miss my meeting to close a multi million dollar deal!!

Alright, I'm KIDDING!!





or am I? ;)

[MsKandice01]

2. I have no problem with this...

How long were they supposed to wait? How long was the flight supposed to be delayed?

[FourScore]

20. I did not get the impression

that the 15 minute delay up until that point was because of the child, otherwise I'm sure the airlines would not have been so generous after-the-fact.

[moc]

3. I don't have any sympathy for the parents.

I have laid bodily over the legs of a 3yo while my husband held her arms down on a flight from Philly to Baltimore because she was having a tantrum and kicking the seat in front of her.

You do what you have to do. If the flight is waiting on YOU and YOUR child, pick her up bodily and put her butt in the seat and strap her in. End of discussion.

[FourScore]

7. Exactly!!!

Spoken like a true parent!

[seabeyond]

22. but the 3 yr old seat was in front of parents. did i read wrong?

[moc]

27. I missed that part. That's just plain stupid. I've flown many many

times with young children (including overseas with toddlers), and you never EVER let a child under about the age of 6 sit in a row by themselves.

More evidence of "clueless parents".

[seabeyond]

35. ya... and were the two parents sittin together behind. i mean... send

dad to the seat in front and put child next to mom. then the kid would keep the d*mn seat belt on.... further, can probably oh i dont know, interact and entertain child to stop the fuss and noise.

geeeez

[AlCzervik]

43. my daughter is 12 and when we travel it's always 3 of us, 2 seats together

one of us is always with my daughter. We've been lucky and she's never flipped out or had any kind of episodes when we travel.

[Hobarticus]

166. Yeah, that's pretty damn dumb...

You'd think that would dawn on the parents as the flight crew were talking to them....sheesh.

[madmunchie]

82. Why didn't one of the parents sit with the child then?

There were 3 seats? 2 together and 1 behind? Why would any stupid parent want to sit with spouse and have a 3 yr. old sit with a stranger?

[indie_voter]

167. I read that, I am confused by this part

"She was removed because "she was climbing under the seat and hitting the parents and wouldn't get in her seat" during boarding, Graham-Weaver said.

Does this mean she was climbing under the seat to get to her parents or climbing under the seat AND also hitting her parents?

[XOKCowboy]

233. It doesn't matter...

and like a poster below said if that'd been the case the attendants would have moved someone to put the child with her parents. I'm sorry but a child that won't sit in a seat so the plane can take off is a hazard to other passengers. I have plenty of sympathy for the parents. It's more for their parenting skills than their grievance towards AirTrans though.

[indie_voter]

259. Agreed n/t

[NavyDavy]

81. sorry, but it does not say the flt was

delayed because of the child and that is why airtran isn't doing as well as they could be, I work for a low cost carrier just like airtran and we are given the highest grades among airlines in the way we treat passenger especially families, we would have moved the child to an area of the plane where they would not be a problem. and no its not southwest

[FourScore]

95. Now YOU, on the other hand, sound like an adult...

:toast:

[yardwork]

119. The airline did reimburse the cost of the flight

From the article:

"The Orlando-based carrier reimbursed the family $595.80, the cost of the three tickets, and offered them three roundtrip tickets anywhere the airline flies, Graham-Weaver said."

[karlrschneider]

130. Good idea. The baggage compartment would be perfect.

:evilgrin:

(I'm only slightly kidding...)

[FourScore]

161. LOL. Oooooh...you are AWFUL!!! n/t

[karlrschneider]

169. Not moi! I meant a heated & pressurized baggage compartment!

:D

[jmowreader]

162. I bet you've been tempted to do it, too...

[karlrschneider]

165. Hell, I've been tempted to open the damn door and....

:D

[XOKCowboy]

237. KS I don't agree with ya about all things but...

when it comes to flying, I'm with ya all the way.

[karlrschneider]

263. Hey, that's cool - sometimes I don't even agree with myself!

:D

[muriel_volestrangler]

247. In what part of the plane wouldn't the child be a problem?

She needed to be in a seat for takeoff. There's no indication that the child didn't like one part, but wanted to be in another. What if they didn't have at least 2 seats next to each other free (after all, at least one parent would have to go with her)? Or are you talking about telling some other passengers to swap seats with them, on the off chance this might get the child to calm down?

The piece may not say whether the child was already the cause of the delay, but face it, removing the family and their luggage would take time - they'd only use that option if they already thought it would be faster than getting the child to sit down - so they must have been trying that already.

Julie Kulesza said: "We weren't giving an opportunity to hold her, console her or anything."

"Elly was sitting in front of our seat crying," she said in a phone interview. "The attendant motioned to a seat and asked if we purchased it for her."

If the child was in front of them, then they did have the chance to hold her. This looks like a case where a child has thrown such a tantrum her parents can't get her to cooperate. At some point, you have to stop other people suffering as a result.

[FourScore]

114. I can't help but wonder

how differently the story would have been percieved if the parents had said, "We only needed a moment to get the child strapped in." Then, everyone would agree that the airlines was unreasonable.

But to say they only needed a moment "to talk to their child..."

ANYONE, who has been around a screaming, thrashing, three year old knows that it is impossible to talk to them. They CANNOT process anything you are saying when they are throwing that kind of tantrum. You pick 'em up. Strap 'em in. Restrain their hands or cover up the buckle so they can't undo it and try and stay calm until the kid is too exhausted to scream anymore. THEN you can talk to them.

I do understand how difficult it can be when a child throws a tantrum in public and it is especially upsetting to the parents when it happens in a confined area like an airplane. My heart does go out to them. But still, sometimes you just gotta' be tough.

Still, the airline personnel didn't handle this one well at all. They should have helped the parents more first.

[RPM]

197. Not the airline's responsiblity to handle the kid

its the parents' - but they seem to have failed to recognize that.

[havocmom]

210. Right. Parents need to teach kids to behave and take charge when they don't.

Expecting everyone else to just put up with unsocialized children is begging for trouble. For an example of the bad/lazy child rearing taken to the extreme, look at the spoiled brat in the Oval Office. THAT is what can come of not teaching kids that they are NOT the center of the universe and they have to operate within certain cultural bounds, or accept the consequences.

Being removed from an airplane is a far better consequence than what may have happened with a child loose in the cabin if there was the slightest problem during take off. Sad that the flight crew had to teach the parents about consequences.

[SharonAnn]

275. A child's misbehavior in public does have consequences.

We don't like to have to draw the line but we do need to draw it.

These parents should be teaching their hcild about behaving, rather than teaching the child that anyone who wants the child to behave should be punished.

[walldude]

4. I fly a lot, this is a tough call...

They had already delayed the flight 15 minutes, how long were they supposed to wait? People have connections to make and the airline has a schedule to keep. Can't really blame them..

[flobee1]

41. Bravo!

Pick the kid up, strap them in the seat and be done with it!

I assure you, noone on that plane would complain


on the other hand, if you hold up the plane for a screaming kid, and the passengers would be ready to dicipline the kid themselves

[we can do it]

207. How About Some Duct Tape?

[hippiechick]

5. ... how much "more time" did the parents need?

I applause the airline for doing this.

Nothing worse than being held captive for a few hours in the same enclosed space with an ill-behaved monster child and parents who are too chicken-shit to do anything about it.

[aquart]

6. So wrong. Yet so many must have silently cheered.

Take that, you tiny little terrorist!

[FourScore]

23. LOL!

Great one!:rofl:

[whathappened]

29. that's right

there is'nt nothing worse then having to hear a child screem at the top of there lungs in flight or in a store cause half ass parents won't take the upper hand , take that from a father of 3 and 8 grandchildren , stop them in there tracks befor u lose control of them befor the rest of there life

[Lydia Leftcoast]

117. Right--uncontrolled 3-year-olds do NOT improve with age

They become more subtle--they may not kick and scream, but they're still self-centered, snide, and unwilling to comply with reasonable requests.

[Odin2005]

172. Kind of like Bush...

[BlueAlert]

180. Anyone else get the image.....

Of Bush throwing a temper tantrum on Air Force One while Dick Cheney tries to talk him down?

[AnneD]

195. Some times folks may have thought me a strict parent....

but I never let my kid get out of control or put her in a situation that she couldn't handle. From day one we established that

1) No means no and stop means stop
2) Some rules are non negotiable-especially safety
3) Mommy is the boss

By laws
1) We always buckled our seat belts (that pesky safety thing).
2) We have grown up manners when we are in public or face a bathroom conference (mommy is boss).
3) Temper tantrums are not rewarded (no means no)
4) We stay beside mom in a crowd (that pesky safety thing again)

It didn't happen overnight....
I never bought her candy in the check out aisle EVER.
I gave up eating at any place but fast food until she could feed herself. We worked our way up to fine dining by the age of 5 as her manners improved. It was a real treat for her to finally be able to go to a grown up restaurant and be praised for her grown up manners. We also learned to safely maneuver through a china shop (we look with our eyes and not our hands).

Was she every a kid, heck yes-but I never but he into a situation until I was sure she could handled it.

I hate little kids and babies on international flights, but sometimes it cannot be avoided. It is just too much for them and the parents. But any child over the age 5 is capable of good behaviour in most situations and a toddler can sit in a restraining seat for a plane trip. You do have to use games and diversions, but that is called 'parenting'. If they cannot behave, there is nothing wrong with driving.

PS- I did not have to beat my child. "THE LOOK" was all it took for most occasions.

I work in public schools and I have a really had time dealing with parents that refuse to parent. My daughter is the first to say I was firm, but she is also the first to tell you she is loved and considers her mom to be her friend.

[bling bling]

239. One of the most important lessons I ever learned was that children want discipline.

I learned that they not only need, but CRAVE to know what the boundaries are. I learned this firsthand working in children's and adolescent group homes. I was too flexible and forgiving about the rules at first when I was new because I wasn't comfortable with being "the boss" and I didn't have any parenting experience.

Once I started being firm and unbending when it came to the set rules and they saw I was serious, they almost instantly started acting more respectful AND they seemed more drawn to me and were much more affectionate even. The kids wanted me to play with them and they wanted me to sit at their tables at mealtime and they just seemed to want me around. I'm telling you the difference in the way they acted around me and towards me was dramatic and all I did was start enforcing the rules and showing them that I was in charge and they had to listen to what I said or there would be consequences.

It is so true what they say about firm boundaries making children feel more secure. It's one of the most profound lessons I ever learned in my life.

[AnneD]

246. This is so true....

My friends use to say I was too hard on my kid. There were some times I wondered if I were doing the right thing. But now that she is a teen and soon to be on her own-I am convinced I did the right thing. She is a confident young woman-smart,funny, compassionate,respectful, good work ethic-every thing I wished for. She knows she can confide in me and that I will stand by her. I am there to help her in a bind and never steer her wrong. That bond of trust was forged when she realized the rules were to keep her safe-not to exert my authority.

It seems a paradox but firm boundaries do make kids feel more secure.

[JNelson6563]

248. Well said Anne!

I was thinking that this nightmare three year old with human doormat parents will go to school one day and I've got ten bucks says she'll be a nightmare and the parents will blame the school.

Ugh.

[kitkat65]

258. " 'THE LOOK' was all it took for most occasions."

LOL! Oh, yes . . . "THE LOOK." Let me guess, teeth clenched, eyes squinted, accompanied by the menacing whisper of "I SAID (insert reprimand here)."

Worked on me every time. And I never, ever wanted to actually HAVE to back to the car.

[AnneD]

260. I shoot 'the look' at some of the kids here at school...

they aren't even mine but 'the look' stops them in their tracks. LOL LOL LOL. No need for screaming or threatening to be physical.
I don't clench the jaws and reserved the whisper generally for one of my own. The closest man that I ever saw master 'the look' is Clint Eastwood. You can't be wishy washy at all or the look doesn't work.

[kitkat65]

261. Too bad you can't bottle ANNED's "THE LOOK" and sell it.

You could probably retire in a week, if not sooner.

What I would love to find in stores are actual cans of WHOOP-ASS.

:spank:

;)

[AnneD]

262. I am

a real native Texan, so I don't need a can, some of us were born with it....but I do remember seeing some cans for sale in the Guardona's restaurant gift shop in Albuquerque. Their motto-:Guardona Chili Packing Co.- Our Chilies are so hot, they make your ice water.

[XOKCowboy]

285. Bravo! You can be proud to be a parent. Wish there were more like you.

I was one of 3 very rowdy boys who were raised knowing proper behavior around our elders. We were taught proper manners from an early age and I'm so very grateful for it to this day. I'm afraid it's a dying art.

[LeftishBrit]

244. I disagree with this

There are very basic differences between 3-year-olds and adults, or even older children. 3-year-olds lack the reflection and planning ability of older children. This means that though they can be kind and affectionate, they cannot be truly thoughtful or considerate. On the other hand, though they can be bad-tempered or aggressive, they cannot be truly malicious. I've seen many naughty 3-year-olds improve with age; sadly, I have also seen sweet 3-year-olds turn into rather nasty older children.

Moreover, this child MIGHT be perfectly well-behaved in a familiar environment and in her normal routine. Some young children react very badly to what for them are chaotic and disruptive environments. Of course, in that case it would be better to keep them at home and avoid taking them on flights; but that's not always possible.

I would not automatically blame the parents for the child having a tantrum or being difficult.

However, as I said in another post, that's not really what I understand the issue to be about. The airline were not throwing the child off for being a nuisance, or having a tantrum, or because they didn't approve of the parents' style of upbringing - such things would in my opinion be inexcusable. They were throwing them off for breaking a rule about safety. While I don't blame the parents for not stopping the child's tantrum, or not training her 'better' not to have tantrums (that is easier said than done! - and by the way I don't have children of my own); I do blame them a bit for not forcing her to stay in her seat regardless. Not as a disciplinary issue, but as a safety issue. It suggests that they may not have taken the issue of safety all that seriously themselves (I hope they don't also allow her to not stay in her car seat).

[WindRavenX]

good--the flight was already delayed for 15 minutes because of them

Many travelers have connecting flights to make--15 minutes can make the difference between making that connecting flight and not.

[FourScore]

30. Again, I'm not sure the flight was delayed

because of this family. Still, I think the parents excuse of "needing more time" was pretty stupid as well.

Like I said, were there any adults on board?

[WindRavenX]

39. even if the kid wasn't responsible for the delay...

...they still did the right thing. The departure was being held up by the kid, and in those instances, you just cannot delay the flight further.

I hate people who don't know how to fly. One girl on a flight I was on refused to check her bag (it was too big to store in overhead or under the seat) and threw a hissy fit that tied us up for 10 minutes at the gate until she finally allowed an attendent to check it:eyes: :eyes:

[rinsd]

8. Toddlers and air travel rarely mix well (nt)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

103. my toddlers travel very well...

never had a problem in the half dozen times they have been on a plane. The key here is that it ain't the toddler that is the problem...

sP

[Clark2008]

158. Never had a problem with mine

But then, mine rarely threw fits.

I have a secret. I would get right in his face and whisper. Whisper. Whisper. He'd finally shut up to try to hear what I was saying.

Works. His curiosity was stronger than his need to throw a fit.

[Der Blaue Engel]

9. I was about to defend the family

but after reading the whole article, I'm going to post a big whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Mom asked if the kid could sit on her lap. Yeah, sure, lady. I'm sure you won't mind when she goes flying across the plane and breaks her neck if there's a little turbulance. :eyes:

[seabeyond]

18. and that happens how often? i would rather it be because the rule

says no... but the suggestion that the odds are in favor or even up there this would happen to the child would absolutely NOT be a reason to deny the request.

[Der Blaue Engel]

46. The rule is there because it's dangerous

And my disgust is with the parent for opting to endanger their child rather than be inconvenienced. I saw a family have this exact same argument with flight attendants last time I flew, and it really pissed me off, not for the delay, but for their lack of concern for the danger to their own child. "She doesn't want to sit in the seat," they whined. "Can't she just sit in my lap?"

No. I have no sympathy for people who want to break the rules because they don't think there's a good reason for them.

edited typo

[AlCzervik]

53. small children sitting on the lap+turbulence is a very dangerous combination.

[seabeyond]

55. in all our self righteousness, .... a child, baby under two can be on lap

ergo the danger must not be that great or we just care less for 2 and under

[Gormy Cuss]

77. Actually, NTSB says the danger is significant but the reason it's allowed is cost.

Here's one news clip where it's mentioned.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/24/earlyshow/living/ConsumerWatch/main638098.shtml

[Der Blaue Engel]

156. "Our" self-righteousness?

I'm not sure who you mean by that.

But yes, the danger is that great, and no airlines don't care so much, and too many people just assume that they would and trust them. To be honest, I expect the reason that the rule is two and up must occupy a seat is that they don't want anyone else hurt by the projectile.

[Hawkowl]

160. Actually it's physics (as well as the law)

3 yr olds are larger than 2 yr olds. Momentum = mass x velocity squared. So it might be easier to hold on to an infant wieghing 10 -20 pounds at 500 mph than a child wieghing 30 pounds plus. Also, as an airline captain, there is no way in hell I'd fly my children around in anything less than an approved car seat.

[karlrschneider]

168. Actually that's the equation for kinetic energy...

:evilgrin:

Momentum is just m * v

:D

[petronius]

199. Actually, that's not the equation for kinetic energy...

KE = 0.5mv²

:evilgrin:

[karlrschneider]

211. Well, shit.

Can I argue that 1/2 is less significant than a power? Nope, I fucked up too. :D

I am desiccated with mortification!

edit: Wait! I have a Tony Snow explanation! mv^2 really IS kinetic energy, it's just a little bigger than the regular kind! Like only twice as much!


:D :rofl:

[woo me with science]

229. Any error was more than redeemed

by that wonderful turn of phrase. "Dessicated with mortification." Absolutely lovely. I am going to have to use that.

That is, if I ever make a mistake.

[woo me with science]

230. LOL

I guess I just did. D-E-S-I-C-C-A-T-E-D.

That was on purpose, of course. Yeah, that's the ticket...

[elehhhhna]

191. We ALWAYS successfully flew ours iin their carseats, hawk --

it's worth the price of the extra ticket. If you care about your kids, I mean.

Welcome to DU!

[AnneD]

252. I've seen..

the results of an infant being held in the lap instead of being strapped in in a car in the emergency room. In a pressurized cabin that suddenly becomes unpressurized-it is worse (until the pressure becomes equalized). They ALL should be strapped in PERIOD. Once the cabin becomes depressurized-it's too late.

One shift in ICU would straighten some of these numbnuts out. The ER on tv is not like reality. Some people die horrible, meaningless, stupid deaths and there is nothing we can do to change it. When you're gone from this life, you're gone. The best and greatest thing we can do is to prevent these deaths. I get so pissed at parents that give these piss poor excuses for not seeing to the safety of their children. And it is more than not strapping them in. Unless they have an existing medical condition-get the shot-prevent the disease.Once we are in a measles or diptheria epidemic, it's too late to immunize your kids.

If you want to test Darwin's theories great-do it to yourself. Just leave your kids out of it.

[fudge stripe cookays]

269. Are you nuts?

Do you know how much turbulence is in the skies we fly?

How about the flight to Hawaii where the metal fatigue caused half the roof to rip off?

The Sioux City flight where the stewardesses had to tell mothers with children in laps to place them on the floor because there was nothing else to do with them?

Yep, babies in laps is smart. AND economical! :eyes:

[LeftyMom]

286. With a three year old?

Hopefully never.

Once they're two, they legally have to have a seat and sit in it, ideally in a car seat approved for air travel. Before then, they should for safety reasons but the FAA doesn't mandate it.

[seabeyond]

10. so why didnt the one adult sit in the seat in front, and child sit next to parent

must be something up because that is simply too easy to figure out. i would never have my three yr old and up... sit in a seat in front of me without a parent next to them. i can understand how a parent would have little control if they are in different rows. i can also understand the 3 yr old not following instructions.... what does she care.... without a parent there next to her.

[WindRavenX]

17. I wondered that too

I think the parents were just clueless and expected the entire plane to wait on them...

[Arkansas Granny]

36. I was wondering about that too. Surely there is more to this

story than is being reported.

[FourScore]

38. I didn't get that one either.

Who in the world puts a 3-year old in a seperate row by him/herself while the spouses sit together? What idiots!

[SemperEadem]

190. maybe they were trying to get into the 'mile high' club

and a child sitting next to them wouldn't allow for it.

I don't understand letting a child sit by themselves next to a stranger on take-off. There is something not quite right about these parents.

[Radio_Lady]

278. Is that what happened? That's pretty dumb decision on seating, IMHO.

[TahitiNut]

48. Neither one of them can probably tolerate sitting next to her.

:evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

57. lol loll ol and then there is that. lol. hence why the kid behaves as she does. n/t

[FourScore]

70. LMAO!!!!

[Gormy Cuss]

50. That did seem to be an odd choice.

I've never seen parents fly in a separate ROW from a toddler. One would think that whoever had the seat next to the 3 year old would be thrilled to exchange it with one of the parents. I've seen plenty of monster toddler behavior on flights. I feel for the parents who can't find a way to calm the child but if the kid isn't willing to be strapped in for takeoff the rest of the trip isn't likely to be any better. I understand that the parents were trying to get home on schedule but part of being a parent of a young child is accepting that sometimes the child isn't willing to operate on that schedule.

[seabeyond]

61. hubby and i have been flying with our kids since babies and they have never

been a bother to passengers, attendants or us. at the most, we couldnt get the attendants away from us and the kids to do their duties and leave us alone.

[Gormy Cuss]

106. That's good, but not all families fly that well.

I've been on flights with lots of kids who were content with whatever amusements the parents had furnished or who slept for long stretches. Sometimes even with the best intentions parents find themselves with a child who is having a bad day. That's why I wrote that parents of young children understand that little kids aren't always going to be able to go along with the adult's schedule.
Without knowing anything about this family other than what was in the news story, what is clear is that the flight was already behind schedule, the child wouldn't stay seated for takeoff, was too old to qualify as a lap child, and the flight crew made the decision to remove the family rather than delay the flight any longer.

[seabeyond]

111. you are right. i am not saying it was easy on hubby and i... nor that

it wasnt even hard, the expectation, on our children either. we had to be very patient with the kids, especially young and really really creative at times. but.... we werent an imposition to other people. we took the brunt of the traveling with kids, not others. it is like the bill cosby act i laughed and laughed. the business woman with her nice pressed suit, hair in place, make up just perfect getting on plane with toddler. and when she got off, a mess, hair all over, make up smeared. we surely felt like that.

i am very sympathitic with a parent with little ones on a plane and will generally spend my time, or now my older kids will help to entertain

[petronius]

200. I once saw a dad wander back from first class halfway through a flight to see how

mom and the three kids were doing - he got a lot of disapproving looks on his way back up...

[jberryhill]

204. Unreal...

A lot of people don't realize that first class is usually full because, at boarding, any remaining FC seats are assigned to frequent fliers based on status in the program among program members who booked coach for that flight.

I fly a lot, and on a recent trip with my wife and two boys, I scored three first-class upgrades. OF COURSE I took the seat in coach (although I did snag her pre-flight coffee when I passed through the cabin during boarding). Now, that family might have scored a single seat upgrade and maybe he offered it to her and she decided to have him take it. But I wouldn't take that deal simply on appearance.

[petronius]

234. That's true - it's certainly possible it was an upgrade,

and maybe they flipped a coin or something. It's not really fair to judge someone based on so little information. However, the way this guy strolled back into coach, so casual and well cared for, to check on a mom who'd been run ragged for the last couple of hours by three energetic kids, it was hard not to want to smack him... :)

[Gormy Cuss]

209. I saw one with an older dad who walked on with an ice cream cone and a diaper bag

and his mate was juggling an infant in a front carrier, a squirming toddler, a roll-a-board and a folding stroller. He was glared at by more than a few passengers.

[petronius]

235. Nice - at least he carried the bag (and you sure don't want to mix up

the ice cream cone with the diaper bag - he probably had to really concentrate...)

[Der Blaue Engel]

I think you're misreading (or I am)

I took that to mean the child was sitting on the floor in front of the parent's seat, not that her assigned seat was in a different row. The flight attendant wanted her off the floor and in the seat, which sounds like it was in fact next to them.

[FourScore]

75. You may be right about that.

That was poorly written because it's so unclear.

[Kookaburra]

11. I love children, but

you can't let one 3 year old pitching a fit hold up an entire plane full of people and throw off the schedules at 2 airports.

[ProfessorGAC]

12. I Don't Believe Her Parents

Attendants are NOT in any hurry to kick people off the plane. This must have been MASSIVELY disruptive and went on for an awfully long time, or this decision would not have been made.
The Professor

[ronnykmarshall]

145. The airline refunded their money ..

and the father said they "won't be flying" that airline again.

My responce .... don't let the airplane door hit ya in the ass on the way out.

[jberryhill]

205. Oh give it a rest...

As if he had chosen Airtran for their reputation. I mean, yes, it's a perfectly fine carrier, but it is a discount carrier. He booked Airtran because they had the cheapest fare for that route. Period. That's Aitran's business, and they do it well. But it's like walking out of Wal-Mart in a huff and saying "Next time, I'll shop at Neiman Marcus".

[ronnykmarshall]

212. Oooooooo ... give it a rest ....

So bitchy .... pat yourself on that back sweetie!!!

[Divernan]

223. Good point, jberry

I have no doubt the family will be using those three free round trip tickets.

[FourScore]

224. It's those three round trip tickets

that leave me believing that the airline acted on some level very inappropriately. Airlines don't just hand out tickets on a whim after tossing people off a plane. Something isn't right in this story. Certainly the parents should have plopped the kid in the seat and buckled her down. But maybe they had never been in public with their kid having that sort of meltdown and as new parents they may have felt embarrassed and overwhelmed. Okay, but let's say, we don't cut the parents any slack at all... something still ain't right in this story...

The refund and "generosity" of the airline leads me to believe that the personnel for Airtran didn't respond appropriately to this particular situation. Otherwiise they would not be handing out free tickets to that family.

[renate]

13. I bet it was the delay rather than her behavior that was the problem

They can't leave till everybody's buckled in, and she wouldn't get buckled in.

It's unfortunate that the family was inconvenienced but that's life with kids. Better that they have to wait (it looks like they didn't have to pay for another flight) than delay all the other people on the plane.

I do sympathize with the family, having had hellish trips with my kids when they were small. But if the tantrum didn't look like it would be winding down any time soon, the flight crew didn't really have a choice.

on edit--wow... when I started reading the Salon article this thread had no replies, and by the time I get back here, a zillion people have already said what I was going to say. I guess we've all been on flights with kids who won't behave... no love for the parents here!

[JVS]

14. Couldn't they have just tasered her?

[katsy]

32. ROFL!!!!

BAD!

You're so so bad!

:spank: :rofl: :spank:

[hlthe2b]

33. you SO bad...

snarf

[FourScore]

45. ROFLOL!!!

Security probably confiscated their taser before they got on board.

[RPM]

198. worked on you

you turned out ok :-P

[Canuckistanian]

222. Yikes, you're awful

However......

:rofl:

[dflprincess]

15. Good for the airline

I can tolerate a crying child, but it sounds like this kid was out of control. I can't see why they should have delayed the flight while the parents tried to calm her down - who knows how long that would have taken. And one can only wonder how the child would behave once the plane was airborne.

[AlCzervik]

16. i have no problem with this at all and lap seating can be very dangerous if the plane

hits turbulence. I am a parent and i also don't like Air tran but they were correct.

[WI_DEM]

19. Sorry, but other people's lives can't always wait until those parents

calmed their daughter down so that the plane could leave. We don't know what other passengers had going on either. They may have had to get to their destinations for business or personal reasons which couldn't be delayed. Not all, but some.

[elehhhhna]

192. The parents should have strapped the kid in, not had a discussion

etc. Planes take off with screaming toddlers in them ALL THE TIME. The airline employees can't grab your kid and place her in a seat. That's the parents job. If they're not up to it, off they go.

[Burma Jones]

21. At least they were on the ground......

[mondo joe]

24. Bravo! My neighbor was told he wouldn't be able to take the bus if he couldn't

control his spoiled bratty kid - and knowing her as I do I think they were in the right. He's never done a thing to control or guide in her life, and has always expected everyone else to bend to her desires.

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. My son was a great flyer. He just loved it. I'm so glad I never had to go through

a fit on a plane. His behind would have been sat in a seat, regardless of a fit though. I think the airline was right here.

[cynatnite]

26. We never had to deal with tantrums from any of our kids...

Grant it, the three of them had their moments, but there were always firm rules about how to behave in public.

Having said that, I find long distance traveling with kids a major inconvenience and I would prefer it to be mine rather than inflicting that on others. This is why we drive rather than fly if we travel with our kids.

[donsu]

153. from a very young age I didn't allow tantrums. you have to stop that

kind of acting out right from the beginning.

tantrums and whining. whining was a bane I refused to put up with even from a teenager.

[tblue37]

215. I ran a home daycare for 18 years.

During that time, I dealt with 33 kids (not all at once—6-8 at a time in the daycare)--not counting my own two. I never once had to deal with a tantrum--until the parents walked in the door at the end of the day. The minute the parents arrived, certain kids--who behaved very well for me--would suddenly turn into little monsters. I would wait a few moments for the parents to assert their authority, but when they wouldn't, I would simply step in and tell the kid that's enough, and the child would stop immediately.

Humans are animals. We are social and hierarchical. A child senses immediately if the adult is tentative about his/her proper place in the hierarchy—and also knows immediately when he or she is in the presence of an adult who has no problem asserting authority. I don’t hit and I don’t yell. In fact, I don’t even get angry. I am famous for not having a temper--I am a jolly, silly sort of person. But when I am dealing with children, I am also the boss, and they know it.

Bill Cosby has a routine where he says eh can't understand why parents can't make their kids behave. He says, "If I say, 'Come here' and the kid won't come here, then I go over and pick him up. That's 'Come here.'"

You can't parent from a chair, telling the kid over and over to do something but not following through. And you can't bargain or chitchat your way through a child's bad behavior. I never had many rules, but the rules I had were for real. There was no bargaining and I never "begged" a child to behave. I just expected it.

I am astonished by that TV show “Supernanny,” because I am one of those myself. I am appalled at the way some people allow their children to behave, because I never had a problem getting kids to behave. We had a great time in my daycare, and because the kids were so well behaved for me, I sometimes even invited them over on the weekend for pool parties or slumber parties. (I had a big cow tank we used as a swimming pool—the kids loved it.)

On my “Who’s Minding the Children” website I have an article entitled “What You Encourage in the Puppy You’ll Live with in the Dog”: http://www.childrensneeds.homestead.com/puppy.html
Here is the final paragraph:

Parents should remember that behavior they encourage in their infant or toddler is bound to be carried into the child's later years. It is a good idea not to encourage behaviors that you will find intolerable very soon--or that the rest of the world will find obnoxious, even if nothing your precious baby does ever seems obnoxious to you.

BTW, I saw a picture of the family during an interview. The child, in her mother's lap, was still not behaving. She was arching her back and obviously not cooperating at all with the need to hold still for a moment. In fact, she looked like she was struggling to get out of her mother's lap.

[mongo]

219. ..

:yourock:

[kath]

240. Wow, Tina, great post! I just spent more than 2 hours reading your websites,

(when I should have been in bed :-)) and, boy, do we think alike on parenting issues. You've got some great articles on your site. If ONLY something could be done to pound your good sense into the heads of all those clueless parents out there!

Kids suffer (and society does, as well) when parents don't do their job of teaching the child how to behave. Yeah, it's hard work. It's hard to say no, and hard to discipline and to be consistent. But it's your JOB, damn it, and your kids NEED for you to do it!

[tblue37]

243. Thanks, Kath. You might also like to lose sleep while reading some of

the articles on my Kidbits website. On that site I post funny true anecdotes featuring the children I have raised. The cute stories provide a pleasant contrast to the rants on my Who's Minding the Children? site.

BTW, the home page for each site has links to all of my other sites (I have ten of them on a wide variety of subjects). If you got into them, you could give up sleeping for months, since I have 450 articles spread across the 10 sites <LOL>.

[seabeyond]

28. the taser post was funny, ..... alas i cannot post on the poster to let

him/her know. but got a chuckle. cute.

[JVS]

34. You're off of block as soon as it lets me

My policy is that block is for 1 week only unless (and this hasn't happened yet) I get superstalked

[seabeyond]

40. wanted to sya thank you.... but couldnt do that either.

hey..... whatever you feel you need to do,.... is my motto

[RPM]

220. I'll let him know for you

this block thing is so weird.

On Edit: His blocks usually don't last longer than a week or two.

On second edit: I am way late to this love-fest, nevermind me...

[PassingFair]

31. Sounds like the parents bought three tickets and then had them split up.

This has happened to me before. It is TERRIBLE to sit ROWS
apart from a toddler on a flight.

They are unpredictable.

They're FUCKING TODDLERS!

Someone should have switched seats so that the parent
could have been next to the kid for pete's sake.

Common f*ing sense.

Stupid passengers. Stupid airline. Overbooking is the
culprit.

[seabeyond]

49. and if that was the case and none of the seats together, darn right a person

should have changed seats to let parent sit next to their child. and absolutely obvious. that is why i think we must not be getting whole story

[frylock]

66. why didn't the dad switch seats with the toddler?

That would allow her to sit with her mommy. If she doesn't like mommy, then she can sit with daddy. This is on the parents, IMOSHO.

[seabeyond]

74. agreed on the parents. unless ticket with names and didnt allow seat swap

because of our patriot act

[madmunchie]

85. BS It happens ALL OF THE TIME

[seabeyond]

99. yes it does. not enough info for me to say BS. cause i do not know. but....

todya the airlines act differently than yesterday. and i know seat swapping is one of the issues that airlines are dealing with. now, i cannot imagine any adult refusing a parent to sit with their child. but then there is a lot of things airlines are doing today that i cannot believe they are getting away with. line rejecting a passenger because of a tshirt.

i am putting out all kinds of possibilities thru out the thread... the obvious, the parent sits in the single seat and child sit next to a parent. but then it is not even clear to me if the child had a seat in front.... one poster is suggesting that the kid was on the floor and all seats together. what happens when an article is not clear and thorough

[dysfunctional press]

251. regarding that t-shirt thing...

the moran was wearing a shirt with the word "terrorist" in big letters- and believe it or not, there are some (usually older) folks with limited sensibilities on the issue- if the guy didn't want to turn the shirt inside out, the airline had every right(and i applaud them as well) to do what they did.
to quote george costanza- "we live in a Society"- it can't always be just about ourself and what we feel like.

[SemperEadem]

194. exactly. The onus isn't on other passengers

the onus is squarely on the parents.

[TahitiNut]

56. Solution: One parent takes the solo seat. Toddler sits next to the other. Swap later.

There's absolutely no good reason for the parents to sit together with the kid stinng alone. Just because they can't stand their own kid is no good reason. :evilgrin:

[PassingFair]

63. I'm thinking ALL THREE were split up.

It happens.

[moc]

76. If that happened, another adult would have offered to move and/or

the flight attendant would have requested someone to move.

I've had that happen on a few rare flights with my young children. Believe me, no one wants to sit next to an unaccompanied toddler. They offer to move lickety split.

[PassingFair]

109. I have personally been in situations where

people have REFUSED to move (they wanted their AISLE SEAT, dammit)
and have had my entire family of four (two kids UNDER 10) split up
on flights.

The airline have offered "make-up" flights to me also, and at times
I've taken them.

They overbook the CRAP out of popular flights, they don't give a damn.

[moc]

113. What assholes. Well, in that case, I'd say to them "I hope you

enjoy flying next to my 4yo! I'll be napping! Thanks so much for babysitting!"

[ContraBass Black]

249. Would you let a 4yo out of line of sight?

I wouldn't want to.

[moc]

257. Uh, I was being sarcastic...(m)

I've never had anyone refuse to move. No one I've ever met has wanted to sit next to one of my unaccompanied preschoolers.

[TahitiNut]

80. I was once a frequent flyer (job) and it's common for people to be asked to change.

There's no way that any flight attendant wouldn't have prevailed on another passenger to swap so the kid would be next to at least one parent. The only place they'd not put the kid would be in an exit row ... but they'd move the parent and almost any adult would take the exit. It's common for the flight attendants to ask passengers to change for good reason.

At the same time, the parents are 100% responsible for controlling the kid. Neither the airlines nor any other passenger should ever need to do so. That's clear, imho. If they can't do it, then far more is at stake than some minor annoyance.

IMHO, this is exacerbated by the obscenely sardine-packed planes, with center seats that even kids feel claustrophobic in. I absolutely detest flying these days - it's gotten inhuman, imho.

[MsKandice01]

58. It happens to me all the time BUT...

I make SURE before we're even seated that at least one of us gets a seat next to my child. The flight attendants usually take care of that for me before I even get on the plane but, even if they don't, people are happy to oblige when they know the alternative is they get to sit next to a toddler with no parental supervision. Even if the flight attendants didn't want to ask someone to switch seats, the parents damn well should have. I still fault the parents.

[progressivebydesign]

62. I didnt' get that impression. I think the kid just didnt' want to sit. n/t

[Maddy McCall]

184. On AirTran, you can reserve your seats anytime within 24 hours before the flight

And AirTran has rows of 3 seats. The parents knew what they were doing.

You can buy your tickets weeks in advance, and then go online within 24 hours before the flight departs and reserve your exact seats. Usually, at that point, you'll find three seats together.

If you wait until boarding, then you probably won't have seats together.

Bad planning on the parents' part. I see parents like this all the time, though. They think that their children are society's problem with which to deal.

[sofa king]

37. Having flown from Auckland to Los Angeles seated in front of a monster kid....

I say, "hooray!"

As far as "a little more time" goes, well, it was a fourteen fucking hour long flight and the monster kid remained a monster until they finally agreed to put the little bastard down with some sort of drug. But that was at about the ten-hour mark. By then I was damned near passed out myself with the help of about five Tanquerays.

I don't know much about toddlers, but I know they're a pain in the ass, especially for people who do not normally have to deal with them. So in situations such as plane flights, I say kick 'em the hell off if the parents aren't willing to give them heroin, or whatever it is they feed to kids these days.

[hyphenate]

42. As I told my sister-in-law

(she's got two grown kids and I have none) I have a perfect way to handle that kind of situation:

Tie the child's hands behind her back and put duct tape over her mouth. That should do the trick quite nicely. They can remove them upon landing.

;)

[China_cat]

44. If this kid learns that she can disrupt everyone's lives

at 3 years old, what is she going to be like when she's 15?

And what the fuck is wrong with adults who would tolerate (make that encourage from their behavior) these actions?

[I_Will]

115. Forming the High School Young Republican Club (grin) n/t

[Matariki]

47. Oh I'm sure there were plenty of adults on board -

who wanted to get where they were going and not miss connecting flights - simply because this girls parents "needed a little more time" to calm her down.

[Poll_Blind]

51. I read the full article. I think the attendant did the right thing.

  I've flown alot. I've flown short little trips, I've flown medium-sized runs (Coast to Coast) and I've flown to Europe from the West Coast which isn't the longest there is, but it's a long haul, believe me. As a father, I do have some sympathy for the parents as children will be, well, children. However, any flight, no matter how seemingly small is an expensive venture for the airline and a flight can only be delayed so long.

  Remember, on each flight many people will be making connecting flights to other destinations. Getting from Point A to Point B in an airport can literally spend most of an hour layover, especially if getting there involves getting onto a vehicle to drive you and other passengers to a new concourse, like at Dulles.

  I do not think it is unreasonable that the parents were removed from the plane and I believe the carrier was extremely generous refunding their money and giving them flight vouchers. That the father states he will refuse to fly the air carrier again just makes him look like an ass for still decanting sour grapes long after the season is over.

PB

[DURHAM D]

52. I have two comments and a question -

1) Good for Air Tran - right decision.
2) I would guess that the parents were enjoying the attention as much as their child. Delay the whole flight... Everyone watching... Doesn't get much better for a garden variety bully and narcissist. Look at me! Look at me!
3) First thing that popped into my head - I wonder if they are Christian righties?

[MyNameGoesHere]

147. they don't sound like

christian righties. If you want to know how christian righties would handle this just look for the posts calling the 3 year old child: Brat, bastard, spawn, kid. And even suggesting that they be physically restrained and given heroin. No reason to go to that other site anymore.

[Marrah_G]

297. Living in Mass my guess would be....

Professional White Collar Yuppies from Woburn..... Married in thier 30's, Liberal Dems, read every "out-there" book on childcare. Every moment is spent coddling the child, making sure they never have a bad minute, giving them all the latest in toddler "education" toys, etc etc etc. Oh yes and the child probably still sleeps with them and stays up until she decides it is time to sleep.

I know lots of these types. Trying to be the perfect new-agey type parents when what their child really needs is some good old fasahioned discipline.

Just a shot in the dark guess, but knowing the area, it's pretty good guess.

As a single mom of 3 my words of advice: Do not put your child in situations where they cannot behave like a child AND that you cannot leave from if necessary.

Examples:

A) Kids LOVE Friendlys (ice cream/food) and Friendly's Loves Kids.
B) Fancy Resteraunt with a wine menu and cloth tablecloths do NOT love Kids and Kids do not love "Fancy Resteraunt" with wine lists and cloth tablecloths.

A) If your child pitches a fit on an airplane you cannot take her outside nor can the other passengers get away from her.
B) If you are DRIVING and your child pitches a fit you can pull over and handle the situation without subjecting 200 other folks to it.

A) Taking your child into stores with lots of things they cannot touch frustrates both you and them.
B) Taking your children into stores where they can look and touch can be a rewarding experience for both of you.

In other words.... let your kids be KIDS.

[progressivebydesign]

54. If your kid won't sit down and get buckled in.. then...

how long should the entire crew, passengers, runway, airport, have to wait?

I think being stuck in an airplane with a screaming three year old that won't take their seat is pretty close to hell.

[cynatnite]

94. To me this is inflicting a badly behaved child on others...

which I think is wrong. If we had to travel with our kids, we drove.

[noonwitch]

59. Situations like that are why God made Children's Benadryl

A sleeping child is easier to board with than one throwing a tantrum.

[moc]

64. Sadly, Benadry doesn't work for all children.

For some it makes it worse. Believe me, I tried it with my then 2yo and later 4yo son when we flew from Dallas to London. Fortunately, it didn't make him hyper, but he didn't sleep.

We had a little luck with a child's anti-nausea medicine on the way back, which is supposed to be more reliable than Benadryl in inducing sleep. Still, he only slept about 2 hours of the 9 hour flight.

[JVS]

68. That's why god made chloroform

[moc]

79. LOLOL!

[BlackVelvet04]

274. My first

laugh out loud today. Thanks.

[seabeyond]

69. makes my oldest hyper, or awake anyway. would say when he was

baby knock em out.... nope.

[FourScore]

67. God, how AWFUL!!! It's so TRUE!!!

:toast:

[AspenRose]

93. I like Calms Forte for Kids...homeopathic tablets.

My kid loves to fly. He's either well-behaved (looking out window, reading with mommy or daddy) or sleeping. Last time we flew the flight attendant didn't even know we had a kid with us because he was stretched out sleeping on our laps the whole time.

I do think the bottle says to give tablets to kids 2 and older.

[Caoimhe]

60. This topic went to an over 1000 post thread in Fark yesterday

And man, the vile things said about people who DARE to complain about noisy, disruptive children blew me away.

http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2556756

[FourScore]

65. The parents handled this miserably

but so did the airlines.

I'm still left wondering where the adults were?

[DURHAM D]

71. What mistake did the airlines make -

allowing children under 14 to fly at all?

[moc]

73. It's a common problem today.

My husband is a therapist who specializes child/adolescent, and because of that he tends to be observant of parenting when we're out in public. So many many times he sees situations where parents don't seem to be willing to be parents and set boundaries for their children.

I guess the positive side is he'll never be out of work, lol.

[FourScore]

83. LOL. SO TRUE!!!

[pitohui]

159. the air line handled it superbly well

they removed the disruptor as is their duty under federal law as well as the decent thing to do for the other pax

instead of having the disruptor arrested or tasered, they actually provided compensation so that the disruptor and her entire family could fly at another date when the disruptor was not acting like an ass

i don't think you can fairly ask for more

[Swamp Rat]

72. No sympathy here for BAD parenting.

:eyes: I recently got back from a long international flight where a 3 yr old SCREAMED for hours. Thank the gods I was way on the other end of the plane and brought ear plugs.

[ronnykmarshall]

148. I had that happen on a flight to NYC.

This kid SCREAMED her ass off for hours. Her little infant sister was totally quiet. But his kid was not a happy camper. She finally shut up and slept. I felt bad for her and her parents. But damn!! Gimme them headphones STAT!

[DaveJ]

78. I am tired of people getting treated like robots

I'm sure the parents aren't as stupid as they are being made out to be.

If the airline attendants had any patience I'm sure they could have worked out a better seating arrangement.

But profit rules all.

A tetn minute delay would cost thousands, much more important than people or civility. :sarcasm:

(edit: forgot to add the sarcasm tag)

[Caoimhe]

84. A 10 minute delay can cause you to miss a connecting flight

I've had it happen. That's fine if you are just on vacation, but if you are trying to get somewhere to see your dying mother, and the reason you didn't make your flight was some parents inability to control their ONE child.. that's a real reason to get angry.

Leave your children at home if you can't control them, or DRIVE.

[DaveJ]

89. Connecting flights should be scheduled with more than 10 minutes in between

This obviously is just my opinion, but I'm tired of everyone thinking life is a constant race. Systems should take human factors into account, instead of assuming everyone will behave programatically.

[FourScore]

88. That's where the airline screwed up.

Ten minutes wouldn't even be necessary with a three year old. You help the parents buckle the kid in kicking and screaming and you move on. The good part: ten minutes later the kid would be sleeping soundly because he/she would be so exhausted from the tantrum. Tantrums don't last forever.

[tblue37]

225. Let me tell you something about the kind of parents who won't control their precious little

darlings and always need more time to beg the child to behave. Such parents won't tolerate another adult trying to help them control the child--they don't even think THEY have the right to control the child. If the flight attendant had tried to help them buckle the child in when she didn't want to be buckled in, they would have freaked out and sued the flight attendant for assault or something.

In my daycare the parents didn't argue with me when I took control of a child they were letting misbehave, but they nededed me. Finding good daycare at an affordable price is almost impossible, and no one would have risked losing me as a daycare provider. Besides, the parents themselves were often rather like lost children, so they looked on me as a sort of mother figure themselves. But if I had been anyone other than their daycare provider, there is no way they would have tolerated my dealing with their kids when they couldn't handle them.

[DURHAM D]

100. I am guessing the parents made an economic decision about

what flight to take (cheapest) and were aware that seating arrangements might be a problem. Why does everyone else on the flight need to support their decision? I fly a lot and chose flights based on the equipment and seats available. Also, I will not move to a middle seat in order for a family to be together. Its not my problem and I am claustrophobic in the middle seat.

A member of my family recently moved to Europe. They have three children - one, four and nine. The one year old does not fly well. They made a decision (tough for them economically) to go by ship. It cost a lot more but they felt it would be better for them and the other passengers. I thought that was good parenting.

[DaveJ]

107. It seems like people should not condemn the parents...

I'm not blaming the parents or the airline employees, just the system.

Instead of just being glad people were put in their place, we should be able to think about how the system can be improved. Maybe alternatives to air travel should be more abundant.

[mondo joe]

139. That's BS. I don't blame thhe system when the PEOPLE seem like screw ups.

It's not that hard to get a 3 year old in a seat with a seat belt on.

How about some concern for everyone else?

[dogday]

86. What does this say about us as people?

I believe this could of been dealt with all kinds of ways... The ice cream and candy bar way always works... Was it really this important to land the plane and throw them off... Shit it was just a little kid having a tantrum..

[MsKandice01]

87. They didn't land the plane...they couldn't take off in the first place...

And the flight was already delayed.

[dogday]

96. My bad, but wasn't the plane delayed at first to

another event and not the tantrum?

[moc]

91. I think there's a difference between "just having a tantrum" and

having a tantrum that is delaying a plane load of people.

Believe me, I've been the parent of a child throwing a tantrum on a plane. Sometimes, there is NOTHING you can do about it, so when I see another parent dealing with it they have all my sympathy.

However, in this case, waiting out the tantrum affected a lot of other people than the child and her parents. In the light of these circumstances, you pick up the child, strap her in, and then calm her down afterward.

[indie_voter]

164. Exactly! And I think the headline is misleading, mho

The child wasn't thrown off for the tantrum, the family was thrown off for not following the regulations. Had the child been buckled in and screaming, then was thrown off I'd better understand the family's outrage.

I hate being trapped on a plane with screaming kids as much as the next person, and I do have children. Fortunately my kids didn't throw massive fits, and behaved well on planes. Granted my oldest had a horrible crying jag at 6 months on a flight. I felt terrible for him, the captive passengers and of course, myself. lol.

He wouldn't nurse, he wouldn't sleep, he just cried. Fortunately the flight was short and he did stop after 20 minutes. Gads, I'm so glad those days are behind me. ;)

My heart goes out to parents dealing with this, but as you said, there are times when you can't do anything but strap the kid in (be it the car seat or the plane seat) and then work on calming the child.

[we can do it]

208. Yeah - Thats Right Reward the Little Brat - That Will Help

:eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

90. I Find No Fault In The Airline Here.

These parents need to understand that the world doesn't revolve around their unruly child. As a parent of two toddlers, I understand how frustrating it can be sometimes to calm them down or get them to behave. But when that doesn't occur, I understand that there may be inconveniences such as having to leave the supermarket or walk away from dinner, etc. That's just part of being a parent.

In this case, the consequence was far more frustrating to the parents then just having to leave the supermarket, but the airline is still not to blame for that frustration. Merely the act of being a parent and having to sometimes put up with consequences that stem from children misbehaving is.

I feel for the parents, as I know a misbehaving child can be quite frustrating in public. But they have no right to blame the airline. It's just part of being a parent. The world doesn't revolve around us because we have kids. That's life.

[Auggie]

92. Happy to hear it. I trust the parents got kicked off too.

[FourScore]

98. Maybe that's their beef. n/t

[judaspriestess]

97. Needed a little more time?

Airlines are on a schedule, thats why doors close at a certain time and you can no longer get on the plane. Which has happened to me, I missed my connecting flight by about two minutes because the first flight was late but thats the way it goes. Airlines take delays when they have to but it cost them money so they will try to be on time.

Whats next? Please delay the plane because I have diarrhea and I have to shit just a little more? These parents are pathetic for not disciplining their kid. Good for the airline.

On edit: FAA does not allow children to be seated on the parents lap due to the possibility of injury. I think this regulation stems from previous airline crashes, like the one in, was it Iowa? where one of the passengers was told to hold her child in her lap for the emergency landing and the child was thrown from her arms and was killed, the mother survived because she was strapped in.

[Caoimhe]

101. LOL

Whats next? Please delay the plane because I have diarrhea and I have to shit just a little more?

That "depends"

[AngryAmish]

102. Didn't Gerry have a belt?

[kestrel91316]

104. GOOD FOR THEM! I was on a flight from LAX to Chicago

about 12-15 yrs ago with a similar problem. We sat on the ground for hours with weather delays before we could take off for Chicago. ALL THAT TIME there was a 2-yr-old completely out of control opposite the aisle from me. The parents made no attempt to control her. She was running up and down the aisle with bloodcurdling screams and "I don't wanna! I don't wanna!" for HOURS. Finally when we got clearance to taxi the attendants told the parents they needed to seat the child and control her. They made NO effort to do so. Further delay ensued. We waited for them to control her. FINALLY the pilot came back and said you need to SEAT YOUR CHILD AND MAKE HER QUIET DOWN. The parents griped and grumbled and made a feeble effort to verbally control her. They never once made a SERIOUS attempt to sit her down or reprimand her in any way. At long last the pilot ordered the entire family OFF the plane (to our cheers) and we departed. He knew that if he took off with that screaming brat, it would come to blows in midair and endanger the flight.

We missed our connection in Chicago. It was the worst flight of my life.

[MuseRider]

105. Well at least they

did not try to breast feed the kid!
:spank:
:hide:

[DaveJ]

108. Like carrying liquids on the plane?

That may be the next thing they prohibit.

[Caoimhe]

110. Some infants would qualify as liquid, you'd think n/t

[tblue37]

226. Are you saying they might require mastectomies before allowing women to board a plane?

[Solo_in_MD]

112. I hate parents who treat their spawn as prefect little darlings

And have at times done things about it.
- I will tell a child to behave if the parents won't
- I will hold the parent publically accountable for the actions of their child
- I have at times "accidently" physcially intervened

The latter is often the most effective.

[JCMach1]

120. I have wanted to deck busy bodies who 'think' they know what is best for a child

on occasion...

sorry, but that's the parent's job!

If someone were to 'physically' intervene, they would swiftly find an escalation on their hands!

[Katherine Brengle]

127. Damn straight - I can't stand people who can't control their children, but I wouldn't touch

someone else's child unless they were about to run in front of a bus.

[Solo_in_MD]

137. How about blocking their way so they can't run scream up and down the aisle?

[Katherine Brengle]

288. I supposed that is acceptable, but then what do you do if the little shit...

hits you or something, after you chose to interject yourself into the situation?

Not worth it imo.

When it is a matter of safety, then by all means - but if it's just a matter of bad parenting, it isn't your job to take over.

[Solo_in_MD]

135. Try this...

Child is running screaming through a apartment hallway/airline aisle/grocery market uncontrolled by their parents. All of a sudden then literally run into someone and in the process is knocked hard on their bratty butt. That is the kind of physical intervention I mean. Its quite effective. Child has been stopped and it was "accidental" and would not have happened had the child not been misbehaving.

I did have one mother claim it was my fault that the child ran into my grocery cart saying I should have gotten out of her darling's way. My response was that if they cared for their child's safety they would not have allowed them to be running around. When she claimed I should not "dis" her like that, I just laughed and kept shopping.

If your child is just misbehaving in a restaurant and not "in motion". I would direct the remonstration at you, the parents..."Would you control you child or leave" kind of statements. Public shamming works amazing well, even today.

I have had children of my own, have had many nieces and nephews stay with us for prolonged periods. There is no excuse for allowing children to disrupt inappropriately.

[Vidar]

116. Now if restaurants would only follow suit.

[cynatnite]

122. We had rice thrown at us by a cantankerous two year old...

Hubby and I went out for a quiet dinner away from our own kids. Couple in the table not far had their bratty kid who was screaming and throwing food around.

The staff didn't make them leave no matter the disruption. We left a few minutes after getting the rice thrown and complained to the management. Doubt it did much good.

[ScreamingMeemie]

174. When I want a quiet dinner away from my own kids and want to be

assured of a quiet dinner (i.e. no loud braying laughter from adult diners next to me, cell phones etc.) I ask if Poppy can take the kids for a bit and have dinner. That's IF I want to be assured of a quiet dinner. Even adults are incapable of good manners these days. :hi:

[JCMach1]

123. This thread was bound to the bring out the anti-child trolls

:grr:

[NoSheep]

125. And their anti anti-child troll counterparts!

:rofl:

[Hobarticus]

157. What's anti-child about respecting other people's enviornment?

I don't think it's unreasonable to have some expectations on a child...do you?

[JCMach1]

245. Depends on what you mean... kids are NOT little adults and should

not be made to fit into that mold.

[mondo joe]

183. Nothing anti-child about being considerate. Ask my kids.

They have long known that they are expected to be considerate of others.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

118. It sounds as if the parents were trying to coax the kid into the seat, instead

of doing the responsible, PARENTAL thing of picking her off the floor, putting her into the seat, and telling her to sit down and shut up because she's bothering everybody else.

You don't try to "talk to" a disobedient toddler. They either don't understand your rationale or have tuned you out.

You physically make them do what they're supposed to do.

These parents sound like the wimpy types who give in to their child's every whim because "they can't stand to see her unhappy." :puke:

[cynatnite]

128. You reminded me of my Walmart experiences in Idaho...

95% RW nutjobs in the town we lived in. On just about any given day there were parents coddling, asking and begging their temper-tantrum-throwing kid to get off the floor or to be quiet. That was the only affordable place to shop when we lived there and I hated it because of these RW mormons babying their kids.

We've rarely ever had to spank our kids, but you can always guarantee they will behave in public.

[JCMach1]

132. Mormons babying kids?

Must be a different planet...

Most of the Mormon parents I have known have been extremely tough... some a little too extreme...

[cynatnite]

136. Yep...

It was really sickening to watch. I got to the point I went to the store as early as possible in hopes of avoiding as much of that as possible. There were times I left with a headache because of the numerous screaming kids.

[JCMach1]

146. Mormon parents and Nuns were things to avoid when I was a child

apparently both have become a shadow of their former selves...

[MyNameGoesHere]

121. Brat, spawn, stupid parents,

pitching a fit. did i walk into a freeper rally? Even one person bragging they got "accidentally physical" with children. i wonder.

[rucky]

124. Toddlers are so inconsiderate!

:eyes:

Self-centered and impatient, too. Wee grow-ups don't have time to waste on someone else's screaming brat. I know I would've raised hell if my flight were delayed FIFTEEN WHOLE MINUTES.

[walldude]

150. The flight had already been delayed 15 minutes

and no end was in sight. How long should they have waited? Airports, airlines and people have schedule's to keep. How many people should have to re-arrange their schedule, possibly get stuck somewhere overnight after missing a connection, in order for these parents to get control of their child? Sorry but I have 3 kids of my own and would have volunteered to leave the flight if I couldn't get control of my child. You talk about being self-centered, well who was being self-centered here? Seems to me like the people who wanted to delay a few hundred people so they could learn to control their child were the ones being self-centered.

[nam78_two]

178. Exactly.nt

[XOKCowboy]

236. I should have known you'd be on this thread also. RIGHT ON!

You've been a frequent flyer for years as have I and we've both seen this. Why should hundreds of people be inconvenienced (like airline travel any more isn't inconvenient and stressful enough) so a couple could enhance their little darlings self esteem.

Self-centered? Right.

[JCMach1]

126. America continues to be one of the most child un-friendly

countries I have ever been in...

It amazed me as an American to find out that a large part of the rest of the world loved, respected, and even coddled their children.

Some of the trollish comments I have seen on this thread tend to confirm my observations.

Here, children are expected in restaurants (even late into the evening). Staff and even patrons will fawn over and speak to children. And you know what, children respond. It is much nicer to have a little child noise than stressed-out parents trying to shush their child because they are getting the stinkeye from the spoiled middle-class patrons of some over-priced restaurant!


Although please note I am not advocating delaying a plane! Sounds like the parents were idiots, not the child!

[Katherine Brengle]

129. Amen to that.

[cynatnite]

134. It's not America...

The fact is there are too many parents who let their kids do whatever the hell they want. They run roughshot over their own parents and allowed to disrupt other people who shouldn't be subjected to other people's kids in this way.

When my husband and I went out for a quiet meal away from our kids one night we were subjected to a spoiled child. We got rice thrown at us. What did the parent's do? Nothing.

All I can say is that if my kid is that disruptive, I apologize, take my child and leave. I will not subject my child's bad behavior on anyone because I think it's wrong.

[JCMach1]

142. I think it is... we are schizo when it comes to these things in the States

Schools are highly regimented to the point of being one notch above prison. Then, when kids get home there is lack of supervision, or mom and/or dad are just too tired to care. Then, we take kids out and how do they act?

That's a recipe for what we have...

[Hobarticus]

163. Okay, so delaying the plane was NOT acceptable...

Do you think the problem most people would have in that situation is with the delay, or the child?

I've been on international flights where kids screamed until they passed out. I don't know why they're screaming: the engine noise, the pressure in their ears, the cramped quarters, whatever. It's a hazard of flying. Not much I can do about it, and the child can't help it. I feel sorry for them, actually.

But you're telling me I'm anti-child because I don't think it's appropriate that my flight's delayed because of a passenger who won't comply with the flight crew's requests?

I don't care who they are.....boot 'em.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

187. I don't hate children--I would have loved to have had some

But having observed a couple of generations of relatives grow up, I know that children are not consistently disruptive unless their parents allow it.

I have relatives who could take their children to Brasserie Le Snob, and they would behave. I have others whose children aren't fit to be taken to Chucky Cheese.

It is not being "kind" or "friendly" to children to allow them to think they're the center of the universe and that their whims trump everyone else's.

The difference lies in the parents' underlying attitude (barring abusive parents, of course):

Attitude #1: I'm the parent, I do know how people should act in the adult world, and I either enforce rules of public behavior or keep my kids at home when they're too young or too tired or too hyper for a certain experience.

Attitude #2: I'm my children's friend, and I'm afraid they won't like me if I don't cater to their every whim. I never force them to do anything they don't want to do, but I try to cajole them, and if other people get annoyed, then it's because they hate children.

[Kerrytravelers]

131. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I am no longer teaching in the classroom.

I'd get kids like this all the time. And 5 trillion reasons why it should be ok "just for their kid."

I fear growing older. Can you imagine many children that we see today caring for us in our elderly years? :scared:

[Fleshdancer]

133. a 3yr old should not be separated from her parents on a plane

From the article:

"Elly was sitting in front of our seat crying," she said in a phone interview. "The attendant motioned to a seat and asked if we purchased it for her."


So why was a three year old sitting IN FRONT of her parents? I thought kids that young had to be next to at least one guardian on planes.

[JCMach1]

138. It happens... all 4 members of my family were separated

on an international flight from Istanbul to NY. My daughters were 7 and 10 at the time...

They are the best travelers though and took it like veterans...

My youngest even came back with a knitted had a lady was working on during the flight.

That was an interesting flight... During the war in Lebanon was full of American passport Jews temporarily leaving Israel and Lebanese with American passports getting out of Lebanon! Kids had fun though!

[Fleshdancer]

149. 3 is too young though

I'm also one of those EXTREMELY lucky people that has a kid who doesn't cry, throw tantrums or do anything obnoxious on a plane. If I had to sit in a different aisle from her, I know she would handle it just fine.

About this particular situation though, there is absolutely NO way I would allow a 3 yr old to sit by him/herself. The kid was too young and probably too inexperienced of a flyer to cope. To expect someone this young to deal with separation anxiety on top of the scary noises, strangers, and confining space is ridiculous.

[Solo_in_MD]

140. Should be...but often familes get split up

They try to pickup cheap seats online, but then whine when they can not sit together. They also often do not declare the age of the child. The right answer is to pay a bit more and get good seats together.

[JCMach1]

144. It happens on expensive flights too regardless

of listing age or not (it happens many times to us on international flights)...

Usually, people are very reasonable and you can often switch with the help of the crew.

[kath]

214. I don't think they were separated - sounds like the kid was sitting/lying ON THE FLOOR in front of

their seats, having her hissy fit and refusing to get up and sit in her seat. Why the parents didn't bodily pick her up and PUT her in her seat is sure beyond me.

Of course a kid that young needs to be sitting next to a parent or guardian, so they can assist w/ oxygen mask, etc.

[tblue37]

227. I think maybe she was on the floor in front of her parents' seat. (eom)

[BlooInBloo]

141. Parents shouldn't take their kids out if they are unwilling/unable to control them....

... in restaurants, airplanes, other peoples' houses, etc.

[Patiod]

152. Saw something so depressing recently

A guy was in the liquor store with his son, who looked about 7. The son wouldn't stay put, kept wandering around the store, ignoring the father. At one point, he went BEHIND the counter, and stood watching the cashier. At that point, I realized this wasn't a bad kid, but that there was something wrong with him.

The manager saw him, and started screaming "Hey!!! He can't be back there! He's got to get out! Now! Now!!! Now!!! " The cashier had already completed the transaction at this point, and said "don't worry about it", and the father said, in one of the most tired voices I've heard in a long time: "He's autistic. YOU try to make him listen."

Reminded me of a little girl I was taking care of after her mom died. Mom hadn't disciplined the child, so she was a monster. But if I had to go food-shopping on the way home from school, I had to go food shopping, even if I knew she was likely to lay down on the floor and start screaming and kicking if she didn't get her way. I didn't give in, but I felt bad for the other people in the store. I couldn't exactly pick her up by the hair and drag her out -- she just needed to start learning that a public tantrum would result in nothing but leaving the store without whatever it was she requested. I got in and out as quickly as possible, with as little disruption as possible. It made me feel helpless - I didn't make the child this way, she was too young to leave at home, and few people were willing to babysit her.

Sometimes it's bad parenting and the brats should be kept at home, but sometimes it's beyond control.

[renate]

238. good point... we don't know whether there was an issue like that here

I still think the airline made the right decision because of all the other passengers who had schedules of their own to keep, but I agree that sometimes this kind of behavior is beyond control. As a parent whose kids have, like any kids, had meltdowns (rarely in public, thank goodness), I know that sometimes something as simple as a missed nap can ruin everybody's day. Maybe the kid missed a nap or was hungry. All the good parenting in the world can't stop a tantrum in some kids in these situations.

Or maybe the little girl had some sort of condition like autism or something else that made it really difficult for her to adjust to new situations. I have a neighbor whose daughter has that symptom as part of a developmental delay... I forget what it's officially called.

I doubt that the news article has the whole story. I think we all know by now that articles in the media are not always the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

And I really feel for the father of the autistic boy in the story above. How exhausting and relentless it must be....

[cwydro]

143. I am totally in agreement with the flight crew.

[moggie]

151. Put the kid on the no-fly list n/t

[pitohui]

154. good for airtran

they just went up a notch in my book

15 minutes delaying the plane for an out of control 3 year old is enough, they did the right thing in deplaning these people when this amount of time passed and the demon brat was still out of control

the needs and safety of the many do have to outweigh the wants of the selfish few who won't discipline or restrain their children

[RagingInMiami]

170. I guess that beats getting shot and killed by Federal Air Marshalls

[mnhtnbb]

171. Good for Air Tran. Parents that think their kids deserve special treatment

drive me nuts.

We flew with both our boys when they were young. In fact, we took our oldest when he was 10 months old to London (from Los Angeles) and when we got off the plane I heard one person exclaim, "I never knew there was an infant on the plane!"

We timed feedings, snacks, drinks to deal with ear pressures. We had
favorite stories, games, toys. We ALWAYS sat next to them, and when it became two boys, separated them so they wouldn't either fight or accelerate inappropriate behavior. Mom and Dad were exhausted after the flight, but we made sure our fellow passengers weren't annoyed by our kids.

[nam78_two]

173. Good for AirTran.nt

[distantearlywarning]

175. Good for AirTran.

I support this decision. The parents should have taken control of this situation, they didn't, and the airline decided (wisely) not to inconvenience all the other passengers in the meantime.

They shouldn't have refunded the couple's money, though. I think the lesson wasn't quite learned because the family got their money back.

[ScreamingMeemie]

176. I wasn't there so I can't say "Good for" anyone.

And I'm surprised that so many here seem to be able to. I'm not booing either side. I think the whole thing got out of hand.

[FourScore]

177. Yep! I agree. n/t

[Maddy McCall]

179. Good for AirTran.

:thumbsup:

[LeftishBrit]

181. The headline is a bit misleading

As I understand, the child wasn't removed for having a tantrum; she was removed for not staying in her seat.

If it was just a question of having a tantrum, then I would think that the airline acted wrongly. Small children do have tantrums, especially when they are tired and in unfamiliar and confusing environments, and airlines need to accept this as part of allowing children on board. They could, I suppose, have some flights where only adults or only children over 5 or so are allowed; but once they allow infants and small children, they have to accept the possible consequences - would they also turn off a small baby for crying? Also, some children may have mental or physical disabilities that affect their behaviour; it's not always the parents' fault. In an ideal world, the solution might be don't take very young children on an aeroplane especially if you know it stresses them; but sometimes there is no alternative.

However, not staying in her seat is a safety issue for the child and possibly for others; and I can understand the airline not wanting to take responsibility for the risks that it would entail. It's a tough one.

Incidentally, I was once on a transatlantic flight that was delayed for close to an hour, and it turned out that the reason was a drunk *adult* passenger behaving badly on starting to board. He was turned off, but it took some time to enforce this.

[kath]

217. and the stupid online polls about it are equally misleading - SHE WASN'T KICKED OFF FOR THE TANTRUM

itself, she was kicked off because she wouldn't get in her seat.

The quality of journalism and headline-writing sucks so badly any more...

[treestar]

182. This stuff is getting so ridiculous!

Are we this afraid of everything now?

[mondo joe]

185. Afraid? What does fear have to do with it?

I missed the FEAR report.

[Reterr]

186. Good for AirTran

People with kids need to realize that the world doesn't revolve around their kids. Some of these are usually the same traditionalists who think any woman who isn't married or doesn't have children is an empty,sad creature. I think that is why there is the automatic assumption that people with kids come above all else, and our society accords happy singletons and childless couples with lower status than those with kids.
These people weren't being ill-treated blah blah...give me a break..
They just didn't get special privileges for having ill-behaved kids...

This is almost the only issue I am libertarian on- spoiled kids from well-off families. I like the tag line of this one libertarian site (which I didn't care for overall though) I read on this subject : "The phrase, for the sake of our children, is insulting to those of us who don't want, have or like children" :rofl: (Its tongue in cheek of course but has a smidgeon of truth ;))...

I also find it irritating-the assumption (again I guess by traditionalists) that women automatically have some specific affinity for all things associated with children. I am not talking about wanting children to be taken care of, or feeling sadder about children (since they are so much more vulnerable) being in deprived situations, as opposed to adults and so on. But, that doesn't automatically translate to a desire to cuddle and coochy coo with normal well-cared for kids...

[Blue_Tires]

188. lol....brilliant!

[SemperEadem]

189. the child throwing a tantrum didn't start with this airline trip.

the child sounds like she runs her parents.

Their little darling's tantrum is only cute to them, not the other 112 people on the flight. When one signs for receipt of the plane ticket, they agree to FAA rules and regulations--it's a condition of the purchase. Conditions say that a child over the age of 2 must be in their own seat and buckled in at take-off. It's not a negotiable item. An adult passenger who refuses to buckle their seatbelt at take-off would be removed.

Aside from the fact that one of the parents should have been sitting next to the child, not having the child sit next to a stranger on an airplane flight.... that there is brazen stupidity.

[Roland99]

193. (Brian Regan voice) "Oh, this is *your* world!"

[bonito]

201. Little terrorist

In my day we knew what ivory soap tasted like (still can't forget):sarcasm:

[bonito]

202. LOL!!! Everybody's over here instead of the SOTU

:hi:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

203. This is what happens when you don't spank your children.

:hide:

[tblue37]

228. I didn't spank kids--and my kids never had tantrums.

I also didn't spank the 33 kids I took care of in my daycare during the 18 years I ran it. They didn't have tantrums with me either. You don't have to hit or yell at a kid. You just need to be comfortable in projecting your authority. Children pick up on any sign of tentativeness and exploit it for all its worth.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

270. I was being sarcastic...

Hence the emoticon I used. Jeez.
Duckie

[we can do it]

206. Good Move As Far As I Am Concerned - I Am Sick of Idiot Parents & Their Horrendous Kids

[GoddessOfGuinness]

213. If the child had been seated next to a parent, it probably wouldn't have happened.

I can't believe ther was nobody on that plane willing to make a seat change to help these people. I know I would have. When I recently flew with my 8 year old, it wasn't a big deal to request a seat next to my son.

At the same time, the interview I heard with the parents revealed that they thought the child may have gotten an ear infection from the first flight (they were on their return trip). If this was the case, It was unwise for them to proceed without a visit to a pediatrician.

I can remember my early years as a parent. They were fraught with ignorance and many mistakes. I had no idea how miserable a flight could be for my 6 month old, who screamed during takeoff and landing on both flights...he was fine the rest of the time. It wasn't something anybody warned me about...including my son's pediatrician (Thanks, Kaiser).

I really wish, rather than condemning parents and kids, people would get over their discomfort with the situation and attempt to learn from it. Maybe a handful of people on that plane have discovered that kids can be horribly uncomfortable with pressure changes, and will make an extra effort to help their own kids if they're in a similar situation. Maybe some others will remember the experience, and find a way to be helpful to some other clueless parent with a screaming toddler.

[pitohui]

216. read it again, the child was sitting on the floor

the brat is not allowed to sit on the floor, i couldn't believe that i actually was on a plane with so many ignorant parents from <name of western state notorious for its permissive parents redacted> where they actually had to make an announcement that people could not sleep on the geedee floor of the airplane, they were expected to take their geedee seats for take off and splash down

ain't nobody gonna switch seats when the brat wasn't even in a seat but was instead running up and down and then sitting on the FLOOR

if the child was actually IN a seat, the FA would tell someone to switch if the parents were seated too far away -- all passengers have to comply with crew member instructions, it ain't optional

but the child was too busy swinging from the geedee chandeliers

the airline behaved properly and really bent over backward to place these creeps on another flight after they were properly removed from this one

me, i would have asked tsa to put the family name on the "no fly" list

[GoddessOfGuinness]

264. The child would have been sitting in her seat, if that seat was next to a parent.

Anybody who knows what it's like to parent a child would understand the problem. Sometimes there are compassionate people who aren't parents who understand as well. Obviously, some people without children lack compassion and feel they have all the answers...but don't know squat about it.

By the way, which airline has chandeliers in its planes?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

218. I have gladly switched seats to get a mom and her kid next to each other

Didn't bother me, and helped everybody around us.
Also, was the kid FED before she had the tantrum??? Maybe she had a low blood sugar attack.

I am an adult, and I have to eat regularly and CANNOT skip meals. I've argued with bosses about taking a lunch break, when they didn't want to take a lunch break. And I was getting the shakes.
I asked the boss if he wanted to call my doctor and gave him the doc's name and phone number, and the boss backed down.

[pitohui]

221. the child was sitting on the floor

i am a frequent flyer and i assure you that the FA has the authority to TELL -- not ASK, to TELL -- passengers to switch seats to put parent and child together

the problem is not that no pax would switch seats

the problem is the child was not sitting in a seat to begin with, the child was running amok

i don't care why the child was having a tantrum, just as i wouldn't care why you were having a tantrum, by federal law, if you are having a tantrum, you need to be removed from the plane

if you are having a medical emergency and the plane has not yet lifted off, again, you need to be removed and re-accommodated on another flight when the emergency has passed

the airline gave the entire family tickets on another flight, they were re-accommodated, they simply have no basis for complaint whatever the cause of the child's behavior, mental illness, low blood sugar, doesn't really matter


i am at a loss as to why this family is upset with airtran, it isn't like airtran kicked them off and then tried to make them buy another ticket or refused to ever transport them again

[kath]

232. Yep - once again reading comprehension is at a low level here.

"She was removed because "she was climbing under the seat and hitting the parents and wouldn't get in her seat" during boarding, Graham-Weaver said." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16773655/?GT1=8921

NO WAY would the airlines have a 3-yr-old sitting next to strangers without a parent/guardian.

READ the link in the OP and get a grip, folks. From the link: "Elly was sitting in front of our seat crying," she said in a phone interview. "The attendant motioned to a seat and asked if we purchased it for her." They had paid for the seat. Gerry Kulesza said another attendant then approached the family and told him: "You need to get her in control and in her seat."

Nowhere in any story on this does it say that she was sitting in another row of seats.


"hitting the parents" - tell me any decent parent would let a kid get away with that kind of crap at ANY age.

[FourScore]

250. Thank you for clearing that up, kath.

"Reading comprehension is at a low level here." You are so right and I admit I'm guilty. The Salon article was less clear, but your point is a very important one in this story.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

266. Actually, the wording is unclear...

"she was climbing under the seat and hitting the parents" is easy to interpret as "she got under her seat and crawled to the row behind her to hit her parents.

"Elly was sitting in front of our seat crying," could easily mean the row of seats in front of one of the parents.

"NO WAY would the airlines have a 3-yr-old sitting next to strangers without a parent/guardian."
I'd like to believe that, and I certainly hope you're right.

I see no reason to insult people about their reading comprehension simply because their interpretation doesn't match yours. You could use a grip yourself.

[kath]

284. The wording IS unclear - so called "journalists" all too frequently write an article, or read a

news report, that leaves me with more questions than answers. Whatever happened to the basics of "who, what, when, where, why and how"?

The wording was unclear, but for some reason virtually everyone here immediately jumped to conclusions (actually to the least likely conclusion, and the one that painted the airline in the least favorable light) and assumed that the child wasn't sitting in the same row as her parents. Thinking more about the story just now, this really IS the least likely scenario, and not just for the reason I gave in my previous post. Don't you think that, in telling this story to the press, these outraged parents would have mentioned a problem with the seat assignments: "It was outrageous", the angry mother said "they expected a 3-YEAR-OLD to sit all by herself, and didn't even ask anyone to switch seats. It's no wonder our poor darling was so upset. How could AirTran be so stupid and heartless! I still can't believe they would do such a thing."

In reading even more reports of the incident, I still can find NOTHING that says she was seated in a different row. To try to shed more light on the subject, I did find this:
http://www.10tv.com/?sec=news&story=sites/10tv/content/pool/200701/1721494415.html
"Airline officials say Elly, 3, was climbing under the seat and hitting her parents...
The Kulesza's believe the airline overreacted to their daughter's actions. They say they weren't given an opportunity to hold or console Elly. "She was on the left of me and I was trying to have her sit. First I was trying to console her by holding her and that's when the stewardess came over and said she needs to sit in a seat and I said, 'I'm trying,'" said Julie Kulesza."


I also found this, indicating that the 15-minute delay was caused by this family - the airline had already given the family 15 minutes or more to get her in her seat, and they were making no headway:
http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=50731
Hutcheson says that the tantrum started when the family boarded, and went 15 minutes past the departure time. The crew and gate agent decided the family had to get off, so the flight could go on. Federal regulations require all passengers be strapped into their seats.

Julie Kulesza says she was angry when she found out they'd have to wait 24 hours for another flight. AirTran says connections were available, but the family wanted non-stop only.


Re: my "reading comprehension" comment, I'm sorry I sounded so snippy about it. However, it does seem to happen quite frequently here that whole bunches of people will be ranting and raving about something when they clearly have not read the full article linked, or they have jumped to conclusions or misinterpreted something in the OP. I know I'm not the only one that gets frustrated by this; I've seen others post statements such as "Read the article, people! It doesn't say that."

Apologies, GoddessofG - my tactfulness was at a low ebb at that hour of the early a.m.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

295. You're right...

Articles often beg people to pass judgement when all the facts aren't present.

And it's easy, upon seeing numerous highly emotional comments to jump to conclusions without ever reading the article.

Come to think of it; it would be tough, if not impossible, for even the tiniest 3 year old to crawl completely under a seat to get to the row in back of her. So my initial interpretation really wouldn't make sense.

Having heard an interview with the parents, I wondered why they chose to fly at all when there was concern about their daughter having an ear infection. That seems imprudent, at best.

I appreciate your apology, and I hope you will accept mine, as well.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

265. That's an excellent point as well...

A lot of people don't understand how important it is to feed their kid WELL before going on a trip, or taking in a movie or show.

[XOKCowboy]

231. I totally agree with this decision..

Besides the fact that spoiled and disobedient children are the bane of people who have to fly a lot (flame away) airlines run on very tight schedules. If the flight was 15 minutes late already that jeopardizes the connections of many people on the plane. Why should everyone suffer because these parents can't teach their children manners?

I'm sorry but I've been on too many Orlando flights and it's jaded me. You can let your kids run wild in most places and it won't harm anyone (except them) but an airliner isn't one of those places.

[Bonobo]

241. These seame applauders would obediently sit like sheep on the tarmac

for 9 hours if the pilot said there was no available gate.

But taking a moment for an upset child is unreasonable because the flight was "15 minutes" late.

15 minutes! Ha! You people need an injection of humanity in my opinion.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

268. I wonder if that incident didn't make the airline a little anal retentive...

I wouldn't be surprised...

Between their kid having a tantrum and the flight attendants putting extra pressure on them to "control their child", the parents were probably not at all in the calm frame of mind that's needed to handle the situation.

[mondo joe]

283. Not much to do if there's no available gate, right?

But much to be done with inconsiderate people.

[Bonobo]

289. No gate=let people off with stairs. Crying child=be nice, request cooperation

If you treat people like shit, as they do on US carriers, people act like shit.

If you have EVER flown on JAL, Cathay, or most Eurpopean carriers, you will see what real service is. What treating people like humans is.

If you have not had the experience, we do not have enough common frame of reference to discuss the issue. You could't/wouldn't know what I mean.

In Japan, there is a proverb about a frog that lives in a well that thinks the well is the entire world. THAT is Amerikkka.

[mondo joe]

290. And if I were grounded for 9 hours you can be sure I'd complain my ass off.

That's not relevant to one family delaying everyone else.

[Bonobo]

291. I agree. But I doubt that it was dealt with well.

I have a lot of experience flying and the behavior of our flight attendants is as atrocious compared with other country's carriers.

[mondo joe]

292. Airlines are inarguably rude and discourteous -- to say nothing of inefficient --

but that's all still beside the point.

We've all seen or known ineffective parents who can't take anyone else into consideration.

[Bonobo]

293. Yes, true. It COULD have happened that way.

But it NOT beside the point, if you think about it.

When a child is having a tantrum, parents try their best to stop it almost always.

If, during that time, one of your rude, impatient, unprofessional attendants comes in and DEMANDS they hurry up and get their child in the seat or they will ask them to leave, it is easy to imagine the situation getting worse as the parents object to their rude treatment.

At that point, it is easy to see the flight attendants decide to boot them ---because they can and do have such authority--- and because no one fucking cares about courtesy or treating customers like they deserve good treatment. If the flight had half as many child-haters as this thread, I'm sure he/she had plenty of support.

My point is, that in 999 out of 1000 cases, a little kindness and professionalism goes a long way to smoothing over problems. Rather than naked displays of authority. Understand my point?

[mondo joe]

294. Parents trying their best is nice, but a parent doing what's necessary is far better.

My perspective is somewhat colored by my bratty spoiled neighbor child. I have spent too many hours of my life - and I do mean hours - waiting for her incompetent parents to do what's called for.

Once a van full of people waited an entire 10 minutes because she wanted to buckle her car seat herself. I've sat at dinner tables in which the only topic of conversation was the child, because she'd scream and cry if the conversation bored her, and her parents refused to do a thing about it.

I could go on and on, but I've seen the most atrocious situations in which some very poor parents have forced others to wait on their children.

As the father of two myself, I have very little patience for this sort of thing. I'm not a child hater, but I am a hater of inconsideration.

[LaBanty]

242. time to bust out the pimp hand

and use it on the parents, first, for being such spineless weenies they can't seem to get a three year old in a seat. It wasn't like they had to wrestle an alligator or something. In turn, maybe the parents need to apply a little pimp hand, themselves.

The kid sounds revolting, the parents sound clueless. Makes it rude and miserable for everyone else.

[lse7581011]

253. Way To Go AirTran!

I'll be sure to give them my business whenever possible!

[w8liftinglady]

254. CNN doesn't give the whole story

this is your typical yuppie stepford family that does not know the word discipline.I raised three boys,who weren't great at sitting still....they always stayed in their car seats.no exceptions.

[benEzra]

255. AirTran would have been in SO much trouble had they not deplaned the family...

the FAA would have levied some serious penalties for knowingly taking off with a 3-year-old out of her seat.

Had they waited an hour until the child settled down from exhaustion, the other passengers would have missed connections, meetings, etc. and some might have had cause to sue. This wasn't an "act of God" event like the weather. And they had no idea if the child would EVER settle down and get in the seat.

Delaying the plane for A QUARTER OF AN HOUR to give the family a chance to settle her down, then asking them to get off the plane, was reasonable. Refunding their ticket price was above and beyond, IMO (they didn't have to do that, they could have just put them on the next flight, since it wasn't AirTran's fault).

I think the flight crew and the airline handled this situation as best as it could possibly be handled.

[slackmaster]

256. If I were the pilot, I would have gone for the duct tape option

Works every time.

[XOKCowboy]

271. George Carlin's right about most of today's parents and children

"Something else I'm getting tired of in this country is all this stupid talk I have to listen to about children. That's all you hear about anymore, children: "Help the children, save the children, protect the children." You know what I say? Fuck the children!

They're getting entirely too much attention. And I know what some of you are thinking: " Jesus, he's not going to attack children, is he?" Yes he is! He's going to attack children. And remember, this is Mr. Conductor talking;
I know what I'm talking about.

And I also know that all you boring single dads and working moms, who think you're such fucking heros, aren't gonna like this, but somebody's gotta tell you for your own good: your children are overrated and overvalued, and you've turned them into little cult objects. You have a child fetish, and it's not healthy. And don't give me all that weak shit, "Well, I love my children." Fuck you! Everybody loves their children; it doesn't make you special. : : : John Wayne Gacy loved his children. Yes, he did. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is this constant, mindless yammering in the media, this neurotic fixation that suggests that somehow everything--everything--has to revolve around the lives of children. It's completely out of balance. "

OK so he's going for a reaction but he's right on every count IMHO. The way children are raised nowadays is tragic and it will come back to bite these same spoiled kids in the ass when they get out in the real world.

One other thing. The general consensus of the people I work with was that if we'd have never acted that way when we were kids because our parents taught us proper manners in public and demanded that we USE those manners. It's a tradition that's fast losing out to parents who don't have the guts to tell their kid "no".

[Rowdyboy]

276. If I didn't already love George Carlin.....

I would after reading that quote! Thanks

[XOKCowboy]

282. It just came to mind reading some replies above...

Remember he's Mr. Conductor on PBS so he knows what he's talking about! ;-)

[jazzjunkysue]

272. Plane travel is a priviledge, not a right. The kid couldn't take it. So don't fly.

No one said that a plane is a great place for every living thing.

It sounds like the entire trip would have been hell for the whole plane.

They just shouldn't try to fly a kid who's not up to it , for whatever reason.

When you're trapped on a plane, you have to agree to the rules. This kid couldn't do it. Maybe next year, she'll be ready.

I wish more airlines would do this with screaming kids.

[Radio_Lady]

280. Never took two toddlers on planes (my kids were only 14 months apart in age).

That would have been out of the question. I was a single mother for several toddler years, and being confined with them both in cars and at home(!)was enough for me.

I did fly with my daughter from Miami to New York to visit her grandparents. She was just three years old. We flew in side by side seats and she was a little doll. My boyfriend at the time... sat many rows away. He didn't stay in my life very long.

[HuffleClaw]

273. they should NOT have been REWARDED for their kids horrible behaviour

it'll only encourage others to make a play for 'free plane tickets'. stupid airline.

[Radio_Lady]

279. OT: One relatively little thing like this... gets over 6000 views in one day.

It always amazes me what people will say on issues like this.

Anyone know if the family was on any TV or radio talk shows today (or scheduled for Thursday or Friday)?

[geniph]

281. I say screw it,

since so many people think the li'l darling's rights were violated...next time, take off with little Kaitlin running around the plane. I guarantee she'll be sitting - one way or the other - the minute they hit turbulence.

:sarcasm:
(mostly)

[XOKCowboy]

287. They'd be filing a bigger lawsuit..

if little darling got seriously hurt you better believe that. Then it'd be AirTrans fault for NOT making sure the child was strapped in.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

296. My spouse says:

Has anyone noticed that the family not only got a refund, but
they got tickets to fly free anywhere. Does this bother ANYONE?
Where is the reward for being well behaved? It was the OTHERS who
arrived late, thanks to that brat. I would love to have
been on that flight to point that out to the family AND the airlines!

(I say: AirTran could perhaps benefit from Gary Larson's "Wing Baby" from the Far Side)

[Bonobo]

298. Why would 100 out of 100 Japanese people think the airline behaved badly?

Could it possibly be..let's see because they start off with the EXPECTATION that people (especially customers) deserve to be treated better? Even if they are parents who need help with their common-sense.

And guess what? Guess what? You'll LOVE THIS!!! The irony is delicious!

The people treated so well RETURN that good treatment by and large! Wow! Imagine!!! Giving kindness to get kindness!? What!? Are you crazy!?

Why you kid-loving, err, I mean over-indulging, umm. self-righteous, atheistic blah blah blah



Americans (me included probably) are SO FUCKED! And it's we who do it ourselves!!!


I wish I could express how dissappointed all this...hatred and nonsense and lack of tolerance, that's it lack of tolerance and concern for eachother... I wish I could tell you all how broken it makes me to be an American who has lived in both cultures to see this. It is literally fucking sad. Cold shit.