How much faith do you have in the concept of debt?

[undergroundpanther]

When does it become real and manifest? When owning is a collective belief and is backed up with guns jails and threats.The earth once gave us food shelter everything we needed raw material wise for free. But we let the man sit on the box and take it all and "redistribute it" for a price.That day we lost our freedom to economics.

"Empathy is antithetical to control, which is why control systems demand psychopathy as the standard mode of function."

" Keep hierarchy and contractual obligation(debt) prostrate before caring, compassion, and a heart-felt responsibility for all life."

"What we want . . . is the complete destruction of the domination and exploitation of man by man; we want men united as brothers by a consensus and desired solidarity, all cooperating voluntarily for the wellbeing of all; we want society to be constituted for the purpose of supplying everybody with the means for achieving the maximum well-being, the maximum possible moral and spiritual development; we want bread, freedom, love and science--for everybody."


The Parable of the Box....

The box is full of salmon, and a man sits atop the box. Long ago this man hired armed guards to keep anyone from eating his fish. The many people who sit next to the empty river starve to death. But they do not die of starvation. They die of a belief. Everyone believes that the man atop the box owns the fish. The soldiers believe it, and they will kill to protect the illusion. The others believe it enough that they are willing to starve. But the truth is that there is a box, there is an emptied river, there is a man sitting atop the box, there are guns, and there are starving people


http://ranprieur.com/readings/jensenbox.html

[babylonsister]

1. Enough to pay it off. nt

[undergroundpanther]

4. What if you

inherited that debt, as in generational debt.. would your faith require your compliance than? That is what debt is like for some in India, they'll sell their kids to pedophiles to "pay" off the wealthy thugs.Globalism and the system we and other nations live with is evil.It works very well for very few the rest suffer and believe. For What? Fear? obligation,a false one? Ever ask why extortion is assumed so normal??

[babylonsister]

7. I'm a lucky American that's never been put in that position.

I am also one with little to no 'faith'.

[Lex]

2. Eventually the sheriff's deputy will come and put you out of your house

into your yard, after the foreclosure of your house, if you don't move out.

So then I'd say debt gets real.



__________________

[undergroundpanther]

3. Ever ask why?

Why does the sheriff think he has the right to kick you out?

We exist and we have a right to exist.And who has the right to deprive another existing person who needs something to exist when the greedy taker already has enough to live very well at the expense of anothers faith and fear?

Did you read the parable?

Debt is only a mental cage, but because so many BELIEVE in it the bars are made real made by our collective fear and faith so we suffer extortion until enough of us get solidarity and empathy for each other to tell the greedy to get the fuck off the box. Or die.

This is why things like "free stores",squatters, Food not Bombs,music sharing,PSP's like Kazaa scared the SHIT out of the state.


1. Today’s global system of violence. The English word "violence" comes from a Latin root which means "to violate." The dominant world system today is predicated on the violation of both human life and nature. It is a system of death, not life. It is a system that violates the dignity and integrity of human beings worldwide through forcing twenty percent of the world’s population to live in the horror of what the UN calls "absolute poverty." This world system revolves around a legal category called "private property" or "capital" that allows the rich to exploit the poor in order to increase their private wealth.


http://www.radford.edu/~peace/ippno/GM-%20peace%20and%20wg.html

[Dean Martin]

5. I agree

But what to do about it?

[undergroundpanther]

8. Just ask others

get them to ask why, tell them "the parable of the box" in any way that sinks in, get them to question the way things are and the'powers that be'. hat is the first step I think. Than when you know each other better you can start helping each other,share what you got with each other,without money being involved at all. Maybe start up "free stores" and swaps in your neighborhood, pot luck dinners. Some links about this:

Here is a free store swap in Maryland Near sorta where I live..
http://media.www.jhunewsletter.com/media/storage/paper932/news/2006/02/24/Features/A.Challenge.To.Capitalism.Free.Of.Charge-2242217.shtml?sourcedomain=www.jhunewsletter.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com
http://www.supernaturale.com/articles.html?id=222

http://www.answers.com/topic/free-store

Start getting by without using money.Model it for others, share what you know and what you have, network, defend each other.

[yurbud]

6. I was so hoping Y2K was real and would erase my student loans.

[Matariki]

9. here's my version:

There's an apple orchard that was once the commons of a community - until some wise guy decides to wall it off and call it his. The only way the community now gets to eat the apples is if they 'pay' for them. And the only way they can pay for them is by working in the apple orchard.

[rumpel]

10. Danny Schechter

put out a new film

http://indebtwetrust.com/aboutthefilm.html

All people should be able to exist with dignity.

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. You seem to really be asking "do you believe in the concept of property?"

and my personal answer is 'yes'; I suspect the same goes for most people here, though many question if significant amounts of property should be transferable from parent to child without heavy taxation.

[undergroundpanther]

12. When you die

You can't use it.

Who owns air?

What do you think would happen if AIR became property owned by one or very few families all the air on Earth, and sold as a commodity?

Water was once seen as free but as corporations polluted the land they owned (and no one DARED tell the owners what to do with THEIR land)Their pollutants have seeped past their property lines , in the rain, the groundwater..and into our bodies, so now we pay for water that once was free because it must be filtered and treated before it is safe enough to drink.Private property.Ownership is what made it seem OK for corporations to do this.And this fantasy is what lets it keep on happening.

What one person does does effect others and property lines are not recognized by reality or by nature.Only humans play the ownership and compartmentalizing game of make believe.

Animals have territories,And other animal species can move through them freely, birds rest on trees in a lion prides territory, elephants walk by,waterholes are shared..
But when Humans OWN property they try to dominate everything in that space and control every aspect of it, which to me is kinda sick.

I do not believe in private property,control exclusion fantasies.

The Earth is not to be cut up into parcels and divvied out to only those who can afford to pay for it.Did you ASK to be born into a world where you would have to pay some rich manipulative ass-hat every day for sustenance all of us need to exist?

Private property ownership/dominion does not exist. I think it is a destructive group fantasy like debt. WE do not even own our bodies, we die when we die regardless of what we would want and it rots regardless of what we think we own.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. Humans own property, in the way a predator controls its territory

It will attack its prey in that territory, making use of those species. Other species it will leave alone. It will try to keep control of the territory, if another member of its own species tries to use it in the same way.

Humans behave in the same way. You say "Only humans play the ownership and compartmentalizing game of make believe", but clearly many other animals do have the concept of 'territory' which they control.

Property becomes even more important when people have put some work into it, such as planting crops. Just as an animal will defend a nest that it has carefully made, so humans defend the objects or areas they have worked on.

I pay for water because it is delivered in a fashion (clean, with no effort from me) that would be impossible for the concentration of people in this area if someone didn't build reservoirs and deep wells, and maintain the pipes. But it's not industry that would be the problem - it's natural bacteria. Drinking from a lowland stream is dangerous because of living things in it, and their waste products. If it's any consolation, I would rather my water company was publically-owned, as it was until about 15 years ago.