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Kadie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-01-07 11:50 AM
Original message
The National Coalition of American Nuns calls for impeaching Bush and Cheney
Saturday, September 1, 2007
Religion Briefs Coalition of nuns calls for impeaching Bush and Cheney


A progressive group of U.S. nuns has called on Congress to impeach President Bush and Vice President Cheney because of their roles in the war in Iraq.

“The National Coalition of American Nuns is impelled by conscience to call you to act promptly to impeach President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney for ... high crimes and misdemeanors,” the group wrote in a letter written on behalf of its board members.

The letter says that impeachment is warranted for their “deceiving the public under the false pretense that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction” and “destroying” the reputation of the United States and the good will of other nations.

“The time for impeachment is now — before the example of George W. Bush’s regime is set in stone,” they wrote. “Future generations will thank you for preserving the freedom of our nation and its relation to the entire human community.”

more...
http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ/MGArticle/WSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1173352587402&path=rss

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spindoctor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-01-07 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. They also added that they will resort to nun-violence if their demands are not met
:rofl:
:rofl:

Seriously, keep church and state separated. Even if they are on our side for a change.

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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-01-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. don't laugh... they have rulers.. and know how to use them..
Edited on Sat Sep-01-07 12:24 PM by sam sarrha
:cry:

this isn't a matter of separation it is a matter of Free Speech and a Righteous Demand for Accountability
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. Don't piss off the penguins!
:rofl:

There's got to be a jillion Blues Brothers jokes in this.

-Hoot
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spindoctor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Or else, I guess you're really up Shit Creek n/t
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. So...they shouldn't have opinions or vote?
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spindoctor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. They should not preach their opinions and no, they shouldn't be allowed to vote
If you don't pay taxes, you don't get to vote. I assume that nuns don't pay tax.
A better solution yet is to simply tax the churches, an old favorit of mine.

I have a lot more sympathy for liberal nuns than for the likes of Jerry Falwell, but no church should be preaching politics. An official statement from the blessed holy sisterhood is arguably the same as preaching.

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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I'm no defender of churches not being taxed, but in point of fact, many
nuns hold positions out in the world and are indeed taxed.

I have no problem with them voting, organizing, or making press releases.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Does it follow then that other organizations
should make no statement based on their faith - no matter what denomination or belief? No muslim, jewish, methodist or presbyterian, etc. group should speak out about any injustice they see. Just sit mum in other words wishing they could pay taxes to have a say in how the govt spends its time and resources? What did you think of Martin Luther King Jr speaking out as he did? Was that wrong?

What group or individual doesn't pay taxes? They may not have to pay federal taxes but EVERYONE pays sales tax and if they own property, property tax. Perhaps, depending on the states they live in, they have to pay state taxes too.

Certainly you aren't saying that only taxpayers should have a voice in how they are governed? That would exclude the very poor from that determination as well.
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spindoctor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. MLK spoke out for human rights, not against a political figure
A preacher, regardless of religion, should not endorse a political party or speak out against it. That's what separation of church and state is all about.

In Italy there is currently a lot to do about certain tax advantages that the Vatican is getting (for commercial activities). It is however unlikely to change because every politician needs the catholic vote. Even though the Vatican is not directly represented in the government, they have an incredible political power and they are not afraid to use it.

In the US there isn't a real religious powerhouse but there are plenty individual churches that commit this type of indirect representation and they are the reason that we do not have stem cell research or gay marriage and that creationism is now considered a scientific theory.

Just because a flock of penguins is on our side for a change doesn't make it right.

I most certainly am saying that only taxpayers should have the privilege to vote. Government is all about how we distribute tax dollars. If you don't contribute, you shouldn't have a say.
Actually, deep in my heart, I believe that there should be many criteria for voting privileges, including a written exam, but that's a different subject all together.


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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. We disagree.
'Flock of penguins' not said in jest is, to me, a derogatory bigoted and borderline misogynous phrase.

I don't doubt for a minute that MLK would be speaking out against Bush and his regime if he were alive today.

Those who graduate from high school ARE required to pass a government test in order to receive their diploma.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. "separation of church and state"
You do know what your constitution actually has to say on the matter, right?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..."

That's it.

It really says nothing at all about clergy not being entitled to express political opinions.


I most certainly am saying that only taxpayers should have the privilege to vote.

I gather that clergy who have taken a vow of poverty do in fact receive income + benefits that would ordinarily be taxable, even if low, and I would object to non-taxation of them as well. I expect they are taxed in Canada, where I am, if they pass the threshold.

I fail to see how denying the vote to someone granted that tax exemption would be a good idea. Denying the vote to anyone who is not a "taxpayer" would exclude social assistance recipients, many full-time students of voting age, anyone who is the adult dependant of a taxpayer (like a non-working spouse, or a person with a disability), and undoubtedly others. Seems like a pretty bizarre proposition to me.


Just because a flock of penguins is on our side for a change doesn't make it right.

And there's nothing at all that makes it wrong. What they choose to say may well be very wrong; it is not wrong, however, for them to speak.

It is any individual's choice whether s/he heeds what anyone says, and that includes the clergy.

I despise the Vatican, and I despise the governments in the world that choose to do its bidding on so many matters. No religious organization should be given any governmnet's special ear, as the Vatican is in many places, including the UN. These nuns have no special entrée with the Bush administration, and are not seeking any. They are speaking out just as any member of the public or organization composed of members of the public may and might do.

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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-03-07 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. Wow, here I thought that was a rhetorical question.
I had no idea you'd actually answer it with the dumbest assembly of words and notions I've ever seen on this site, and that's saying something.
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skater314159 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
36. Wrong.
If you don't pay taxes, you don't get to vote. I assume that nuns don't pay tax.


You are wrong. Nuns do pay income tax.

Secular nuns pay income taxes on the income they recieve working in the world.

Free speech is a right of everyone in this country. Just because you don't like a demographic group or what they have to say, you can't take their rights away... or are you a Repulican?


Peace! :hippie:
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-01-07 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is Good.
Edited on Sat Sep-01-07 12:49 PM by patrice
It would be interesting to know something about the process they went through to decide this. I am going to see if I can find what orders are members.

BTW, this doesn't have squat to do with separation of church and state; religious have a right to their political voice too, just not un-due privileges. And I'd pretty much bet that Nuns are nowhere near a po$ition to un-due privilege$$$$$. As a minority, their voice should be supported for the unique perspective that it contributes to the Whole.
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wellstone dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-01-07 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. Nuns back Kucinich--My sister is in a precinct which also has a Benedictine convent
She said that every nun who came to the precinct caucus was a Kucinich supporter.

This convent (which refers to itself as a monastary) has a deep history of supporting peace, justice, and environmental issues. I am proud that I have been educated by these strong, progressive women.
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GenDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I didn't know this at the time
but last year at our county headquarters one of our best volunteers was an ex-nun. She spent hours making phone calls for Dem's.

I work at a Catholic School and our nuns have Democratic values -- help the least among us and that sort of thing. They were all against the war from the very beginning. They have these I LEAVE PEACE PRINTS (shaped like a foot print) yard signs in front of our school and at their convent.

I think that Kucinich spent some time in a Catholic orphanage when he was a child -- I may be wrong about that, but there is some kind of connection with the Catholic church. Help me out if I'm wrong about that.
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DesertRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. Kucinich indentifies himself as a Roman Catholic
and has many Catholic supporters. I don't think he was ever in an orphanage, but his family was very poor and they were occasionally forced to live out of their car.

http://www.catholicsforkucinich.com/
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jumptheshadow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-01-07 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hmmm....wonder if they will be spied on?
Like the Quakers were spied on?
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Kadie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-01-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Probably. n/t
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
8. About time
K & R
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GenDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
9. This can't be anything but good
We need a religious left to counter the crazies on the religious right.

Read the beatitudes -- it's a biblically progressive agenda given to the people by a dude named Jesus on a hill. Believe or not believe -- this guy in the sandals had social justice values.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
10. nice!!!
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
12. Mental image of the Chimp getting his hand slapped with a ruler
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. that's the problem nobody ever corrected him
Edited on Sun Sep-02-07 12:02 PM by MissWaverly
But, I do think the ruler thing as too much, but no one who ever went to
Catholic school ever said they didn't emphasize right and wrong.

What does it profit a man if he gains the world but loses his soul.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. As long as they use this ruler...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
13. Is Pelosi Catholic? n/t
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MissWaverly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
14. listen, I went to Catholic School
Never underestimate the power of the nuns. They are like the law of gravity. I am glad that they support Dennis Kucinich,
if Gore doesn't run, I will be voting for and supporting DK.

I support Gore although I may be flamed for this becuz I believe that the presidency was stolen
from him and that he should serve as president and I have a gut feeling that he would be the
one for election reform and a referendum on these touchscreens.

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Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
15. Non-cloistered American nuns are very progressive--
The days of ruler hitting are gone (that was mostly Irish sisters)and now these women are on the forefront of social justice, feminism, peace, and environmentalism.

I went to the National Coalition of American Nuns website (http://www.ncan.us/) and was delighted to see that I knew three of the women speakers for the August event that was held in Chicago: Cindy Pile, Clare Wagner, and Ann Sullivan--all of them are AMAZING, STRONG women!
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txwhitedove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. Posting to K&R....
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. Yeah, I bet the pope hates these uppity feminist American nuns
just like he hates the uppity American priests who think for themselves.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
27. nuns are different from doctors and lawyers?


Physicians for social responsibility
http://www.psr.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Home
PSR ASSERTS A STRONG MEDICAL VOICE...
... for the prevention of nuclear war, against the development and use of nuclear weapons, and for a reduction in the role of armed force in US foreign and security policy.
... to slow, stop and reverse global warming and toxic degradation of the environment.

Lawyers for human rights
http://www.lhr.org.za/
Lawyers for Human Rights is a non-governmental organisation that strives to promote, uphold and strengthen human rights. The organisation has had a proud history since its inception in 1979 of fighting oppression and the abuse of human rights in South Africa.
http://www.claihr.org/
Canadian Lawyers for International Human Rights (CLAIHR) is a non-profit, non-governmental organization, established to promote human rights globally through legal education, advocacy and law reform.

Journalists for Human Rights
http://www.jhr.ca/
Journalists for Human Rights (JHR) is Canada's largest international media development organization. By building the capacity of the media to report effectively on human rights issues, JHR's work pressures abusers to stop and empowers victims to fight back.
Journalists for Human Rights (JHR) is expanding their programs into the United States. Headquartered in Dallas, Texas, JHR USA has spent the last several months getting off the ground with the launch of the U.S. School Chapter Program.

I took a wild google, and sure enough:

Centre for Architecture and Human Rights
http://www.architecture-humanrights.org/
A rights-based approach to development + design
“Equitable distribution of resources cannot be effected unless there is democratic space, which respects the rule of law and human rights. Such democratic space gives citizens an enabling environment to be creative and productive.”


Some people don't like these things.

http://www.moha.gov.zw/violencereport2.pdf
In our Volume 1 of the document Opposition forces in Zimbabwe, “A trail of violence”, the Zimbabwe Republic Police mentioned a plethora of civic organisations that form the Zimbabwe Broad Alliance, which is the reincarnation of both the main and fringe allies of the Movement for Democratic Change. It is not a secret that the emergence of the MDC was a result of local civic organizations coming together to form a western sponsored political front against the Government being led by the liberation movement that ushered independence in the country in 1980.
... The branding of professions in Zimbabwe as “Lawyers for Human Rights”, “Doctors for Human Rights” etc, is mischievous, and nefarious. We are only waiting for another opportunity to see the MDC opening other fronts as
Engineers for Human Rights;
Teachers for Human Rights;
Pilots for Human Rights;
Nurses for Human Rights;
Bishops for Human rights;
Lecture<r>s for Human Rights, etc.


Hey, one can hope.


NCAN - National Coalition of American Nuns
http://www.ncan.us/
Since 1969, NCAN has been working, studying and speaking out on justice issues in Church and Society.



Nobody's forced to recognize nuns as authoritative on matters of conscience any more than anyone is forced to recognize doctors, lawyers, journalists, architects ... or engineers. Because there are people who do recognize all of them as worth listening to, at least, good on them for saying the right things.


I'm just gonna throw this in while I'm here. The elected head of my former church is in the list of signatories.




Canadian church leaders' letter to the Prime Minister, February 28, 2003
http://www.ploughshares.ca/libraries/Statements/ChurchLeadersFeb2803.htm

The Right Honourable Jean Chrétien
Prime Minister of Canada
House of Commons
Ottawa, Canada K1A 0A2

28 February, 2003

Dear Prime Minister Chrétien:

We write as Christian leaders in many communities in Canada to encourage you in the pursuit of peace in relation to the crisis over Iraq. We pray with people around the world for the human community, that God will make us all instruments of peace. We pray with the psalmist for God’s promise, that leaders will emerge in whose days justice shall flourish, and peace, till the moon fails (Psalm 72:7).

We share the concern of millions at the relentless efforts to mobilize the world for another war in the vain hope that it will bring peace and security. We fear that the combination of the Iraqi government’s intransigence and the war preparations of the American and British governments will inflict deadly consequences on the people of Iraq. We implore you to redouble Canada’s efforts to prevent this war.

We are aware that the regime of Saddam Hussein has led Iraq on paths of violence and defiance of international standards that protect human rights and that prohibit the acquisition and use of weapons of mass destruction. This must be condemned, as must the readiness of Washington and London to resort to violence. Neither are means to sustainable disarmament and peace.

Despite the gravity of this situation, we see hope as people the world over express grave concern about a potential war and its devastation. We are encouraged by the tens of thousands of Canadians who have endorsed “Prepare for Peace in Iraq”, the Canadian churches’ statement that declares, “war is not the answer!” Your office has received weekly deliveries of the names of people who have signed this statement.

We are grateful that you and your government continue to seek and support alternatives to war and to insist that decision making in this crisis must be collective, not unilateral, through the United Nations. Still, we must impress upon you at this time our firm belief that war on Iraq, even with explicit Security Council authorization, would be the worst option.

In our letter of September 25, 2002, we strongly urged attention to alternatives, especially a renewal of the inspections process. We are therefore enormously heartened that, through the United Nations, the inspections process has been renewed. It represents an important part of a credible strategy and alternative to war. It appears to be making a significant impact.

We understand and respect the concern about Iraq’s possible possession of weapons of mass destruction and whether it has, or might acquire, the means to use them against its own people and its neighbours. However, as long as inspectors are active in Iraq it will not be possible for the regime to undertake such activities without being detected.

In as much as there is a continuing danger that chemical and biological weapons which are not accounted for could be diverted to non-state terrorist organizations, it must be recognized that such a danger would increase, not decrease, in the context of the unanticipated consequences of war.

While the inspections process is not perfect, it is now fulfilling the most urgent requirement: providing credible assurance to the international community that there is not an imminent threat of Iraqi use of weapons of mass destruction.

In light of this, there is no justification for choosing war when an alternative to the use of military force is already working to provide verification and containment.

The need now is to continue with the inspections and to set up the “Ongoing Monitoring and Verification” process as mandated by the UN Security Council. This must remain in place until all weapons of mass destruction have been accounted for and destroyed, until the Government of Iraq permanently disavows such weapons, and until the world community is confident that its disavowal is credible.

We ask you to remind the international community to remember first the safety and well-being of the people of Iraq. They have suffered much under the present regime. The rest of the world, as the churches’ joint statement puts it, must support them with new vigour in their struggle to free themselves from an oppressive regime, “not with more bombs and missiles, but with sustained moral, political and material support” toward the achievement of human rights, peace and security.

Therefore, we again appeal to you and the UN Security Council to say an unambiguous “no” to war on Iraq, and a clear “yes” to building on the current process. To sweep aside hard won achievements in favour of war would be a travesty of justice and a tragedy of frightening proportions.

We recognize that this is a time of immense pressure and reflection for you and your colleagues. Please be assured of our continuing prayers and support.

Sincerely,

Archbishop Michael Peers
Primate
The Anglican Church of Canada

Archbishop Hovnan Derderian
Primate
Armenian Holy Apostolic Church, Canadian Diocese

The Rev. Dr. Kenneth Bellous
Executive Minister
Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec

The Right Rev. Maurice Hicks
General Superintendent
British Methodist Episcopal Church

Bishop Jacques Berthelet, C.S.V.
Bishop of Saint-Jean-Longueuil
President
Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops

John Calder
Clerk
Canadian Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)

The Rev. Fr. Messale Engeda
Presiding Priest
Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church in the Western Hemisphere

The Rev. Raymond Schultz
National Bishop
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada

Don Peters
Executive Director
Mennonite Central Committee Canada

Henry Krause
Moderator
Mennonite Church Canada

The Right Rev. Seraphim
Bishop of Ottawa and Canada
Orthodox Church in America

The Very Rev. Anthony Nikolic
Polish National Catholic Church of Canada

The Rev. J. Mark Lewis
Moderator, 128th General Assembly
The Presbyterian Church in Canada

The Rev. Siebrand Wilts
Stated Clerk
Regional Synod of Canada
Reformed Church in America

Metropolitan Archbishop Wasyly (Fedak)
Primate
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada

The Right Rev. Dr. Marion Pardy
Moderator
United Church of Canada

The Rev. William F. Veenstra
Canadian Ministries Director
Christian Reformed Church in North America

The Rev. F. Thomas Rutherford
Regional Minister
Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in Canada


Ecumenical agencies:

Jane Orion Smith
Chair, Board of Directors
KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives

Moira Hutchinson
Chair, Board of Directors
Project Ploughshares

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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
30. He even pisses off nuns.
I do that too...but I TRY to. :P
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-02-07 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
31. GEEEEEEZ! When you've lost the Nuns.....
Go get 'em, Sisters!:bounce:
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-03-07 02:07 AM
Response to Original message
32. Impeach!
Everyone with a conscience wants them impeached.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-03-07 05:00 AM
Response to Original message
34. K&R
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DemGa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
35. K&R
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