Hillary Harpies and other harsh critics

[hyphenate]

Okay, I've had enough already, and the primaries are still a year away. I'm fed up with people denigrating the politicians who have already thrown their collective hat into the ring, and so damned annoyed at the waste of breath and energy that is going into these constant attacks.

Sure you "hate" Hillary. Sure you "hate" Kerry. Sure you "hate" Obama, Edwards, Clark, Biden, Vilsack or any one of a dozen others who have made their intent known. Sure you think that someone isn't right for the office of President. But is it necessary to write the same god-damned comments in 25 different threads? I posted ONCE in one thread my opinion on the potential candidates, and I haven't said diddly since. And that was like a week ago. Why does everyone feel the need to post the same attacks over and over and over again, to the consternation of those of us who want to make this campaign a civil one?

I know that it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease, but frankly, the tedium of seeing the same level of attack posts on a daily--nay, hourly basis at this stage of the game is counterproductive. We should be trying to spend more time trying to find ways to keep our people who are in power to stay in power. We should be finding ways to showing the voters "out there" which party they should be supporting, and voting for. We should be making the next election an unsurpassed success by making the many voters not "connected" into firm Democrats by our actions instead of our petty likes and dislikes.

As I wrote in a post just a couple of nights ago, (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3171940), those of us at DU are NOT going to be the ones who are going to decide who the face of America is going to be in 2008. We're just a small portion of that group--the legal voters in the country. We can make all the hoopla we want, but the 100,000 members of DU aren't going to make more than a drop in a bucket of water of the actual votes cast in the general election. It's reality, even if we think otherwise.

The attacks here aren't going to change any of that, and arguing constantly is only helping to raise the ire of a lot of people here, and causing good people to turn into flamethrowers, hatemongers and worse. It's making us look oh-so-petty and the extent of damage it will bring over the next year, to the primaries, is going to be horrible. We think that only the administration is truly evil, but by January 2008, we will also have nothing but contempt for the entire lot of our OWN candidates, who, after being torn down constantly on DU, will look no better than the worst of the candidates on the right.

Is this what we want? I admit that we need to examine all the candidates--learn about them, learn their stances on various issues, look at their voting records and mostly look at what they stand for, but the shit about what they might have supported three, four years ago doesn't mean anything. As we should ALL be aware, we learn something new, and we change our opinion on the new information. The IWR especially was cast in a completely different light back in 2003, and was approved by many who truly believed that the administration had information to prove their allegations. THAT CHANGED. If those in the Senate had only known all the facts, the vote would have been a different one.

We here at DU are a fair representation of the face of our country already, and that's good. We all have our particular "pet" topics, we all have had a wide variety of experiences in our lives, and we all have many varied opinions, and here we like to voice them. But PLEASE!!! Let's cut down the harsh criticisms of the candidates at this time. It's too god-damned early to be spouting off about them, and frankly, it offers a lot of fodder for those who want to prove that we're as petty as everyone else. We need solidarity to bring about the future, and to make it to a Democratic win in November 2008. Let's not blow that chance by being sent to our own corners so often it becomes a way of life.

[Eurobabe]

1. It's the nature of the beast here, take some aspirin

and pass the popcorn. It's going to be a long 22 months. The fighting won't stop until after the election.

[Lost-in-FL]

2. K&R

:thumbsup: :kick: I am sick of the bickering. It is sad to say that there is more negativity here of Democratic candidates that in freeperville. I wonder if the negativity comes from those who helped ** get his presidency in 2000. Nevermind... It was the voting machines.

[tjwash]

6. You and me both.

We need a specific forum for this "my candidate is better than yours" sniping, because we still have over a year of this left. For christs sake the dems are miles away from figuring out who the front runners are going to the primaries, and there is already more negativity and hatred being spewed amongst ourselves than I have seen here EVER.

It's bound to drive off a lot of people and that is just not good.

[hyphenate]

14. Amen

IIRC, they split GD into separate but equal forums last time to contain the viciousness. This time around, an early call on that is perhaps warranted.

[acmavm]

3. Don't read the threads. I have this feeling that no matter how sick you

are of this constant squabbling, it's not going to quit.

[hyphenate]

17. I know

**sigh** I only wanted to make an early attempt at bringing some civility to the barrage of negative posts concerning our candidates. I know it won't stop, but if people would think just a few seconds longer before they posted an attack, perhaps this will have been the reason, and that would justify my rant.

[lvx35]

4. I strongly disagree with one thing.

"those of us at DU are NOT going to be the ones who are going to decide who the face of America is going to be in 2008."

Its true, DU won't DECIDE these issues...But the thing is DUers tend to have the same opinions as most Dems weeks, months or years before the regular public catches up. I've seen it happen again and again, and I can seriously promise that this will happen with Hillary.

Listen, I love her, I really do...But here are the facts moderate Americans are going to care about:

1) She supported the war that will be regarded as a massive mistake in 2008.
2) She *seemingly* didn't earn her position, she got there by marrying a president. (I disagree with this, but its a perception that will be there)
3) Clinton II is a rerun, like Bush II and by 2008 Bush II will be viewed as a massive mistake
4) The entire RW hate machine has spent the last 16 years blasting her name, and were making sure its not wasted.

There is a lot to worry about here.

edit: This post has stuck in my head since I made it. I have got to say that despite all things things I say, I feel it is unavoidable that she will be elected. Its a weird sort of feeling.

[cynatnite]

8. I disagree with some of that...

I don't we'd see a Clinton rerun should she win in 2008. I think we'd get a continuation onto better things.

As far as the RW machine they'll probably do the 'blame Clenis' game and now it's just old repetive news. Even when it was all brand new during Bill Clinton's administration it had little impact on his approval ratings. It's a fact that it all went nowhere. Ask Ken Starr. We can expect that rerun, but I really don't think people will care all that much.

But I could be totally wrong, too. :)

[lvx35]

15. the thing is that I don't know what to expect.

I feel like she's just too much of a stranger, and it makes me feel uneasy. It would be nice to get to know what she's abotu a lot more.

[cynatnite]

19. We should get that in the next year from her...

and other candidates.

I'm actually looking forward to the election. We'll get to know all the candidates pretty well. Has Biden thrown his hat in, yet? Haven't heard much from him lately.

[lvx35]

33. I am too.

it will be nice if we can line them up and ask them all questions. I want to see where priorities lie.

(sorry, don't know about Biden)

[fafafafa12]

5. Why do you have to say "gd" so much?

[hyphenate]

9. Because I want to?

Because it pisses off the radical religious right so much? Because I can? Because it expresses my completely over-the-top pissiness? Because the first amendment gives me that element of free speech? Because it's my choice of a swear word? Because when I want to rant, it's a word guaranteed to convey my anger and frustration?

Take your pick.

[cynatnite]

10. because she goddamn well felt like it n/t

[hyphenate]

20. Yes!

:rofl:

[Catherine Vincent]

12. eh?

[AlCzervik]

13. you writing a book on the ops life?

[cynatnite]

16. You have some...umm...interesting posts

:smoke:

[hyphenate]

21. Perhaps we should get some popcorn?

:popcorn:

[cynatnite]

22. Oh, good idea...

I absolutely LUV your avatar, BTW. :thumbsup:

[hyphenate]

24. Thank you!

Rodney McKay--the sex idol of the geek world. :)

[cynatnite]

26. Oh, most definitely...

He was shining today on sci-fi channel. They did a marathon.

[fafafafa12]

23. Perhaps one should get a thesaurus.

[cynatnite]

25. For...??? n/t

[hyphenate]

28. Have several

and several dictionaries as well. That's why I often use words that are more than 3 syllables in length and over 10 letter to spell. (Plus, I have my BA in English, don't ya know)

[SeattleGirl]

7. Thanks, hyphenate.

I'm sick of it too. I was just thinking earlier that some of the comments on DU about the various candidates are like the negative campaign ads: 90% of them are about how terrible the "other guy" is, with very little of substance about why you should vote for THEM.

It's one thing to point out something in a candidates voting record or whatever, that could be cause for concern. That's called educating people.

It's another thing to rant and rave about a candidate because you "hate" them. That's nothing but bashing.

[AtomicKitten]

11. Brava!

[Catherine Vincent]

18. I call them "cut and pasters".

[tabasco]

27. NEWSFLASH: It's a political message board.

People have opinions and I come hear to read them.

It helps me make an informed choice.

Thank you very little for trying to stifle the debate.

[hyphenate]

30. Oh, I'm not trying to stifle

vigorous debate. I can't really do that, because DUers will rant on regardless of what I might want to see happen. However, I think that perhaps some civility and focus on some level of propriety would be great at this stage of the game, since it's going to be a long time until the election is actually here. If we can't be somewhat restrained in our level of discourse at this point in time with each other, we are not likely to see much in the general population, either. And the very sharp, very divisive line that already cuts our country in half will continue on.

[fafafafa12]

40. Try practicing what is being preeched!

[RiverStone]

29. Here's the good news!

Yes, we love to "rant" and roll on DU - with good reason. We on balance are passionate folks with passionate opinions!

Baseless flaming and naming calling is indeed counterproductive; but the majority of our posts and disagreements are rooted in knowledge (right or wrong) and a strong sense of what we feel is best for us personally and our nation.

The good news to remember is there was plenty of heated debate before the November elections - and yet not one DEM incumbent lost anywhere from sea to shining sea - so much for bad karma eh?

I'm trying to frame my arguments politely, yet enthusiastically. Thank gawd we do NOT march in lock step around here!

I appreciate your intent hyphenate, though I don't see the traffic or method shifting anytime soon. Hey tomorrow night, we will ALL be chopping at the bit to diss Shrub for his continued lies and propaganda after the SOTU address. Good to be on the same side friend. :)



peace~

[Faryn Balyncd]

31. Some of us who think Hillary is the worst possible candidate LIKE Hillary and....

Some of us who think Hillary is the worst possible candidate LIKE Hillary and ....... would vote for her in the general election, should she be nominated.

Some of us just feel that she is the weakest possible candidate, and would continue to be a fence-straddler on the most vital issues, especially on the war and the assault on civil liberties and the constitution.

Does that make us all "Hillary Harpies"?

Is it not better to do everything within our power to prevent a disastrous nomination?

Are you suggesting that we should hold our critism until after she has delegate committments?

Or are you suggesting we never speak?

[hyphenate]

34. If you would check some of the other things

I said, my point was to make the level of conversation on a higher level than ad hominem attacks on Hillary. If people at DU can't use their superior powers of intellect to discuss the candidates and their weaknesses in a civilized manner, then we are no better than her detractors from the other side of the tracks.

[Change has come]

32. Hillary Harpies?

Doesn't that phrase turn your post and resulting thread into the very thing you're ranting against?

[hyphenate]

35. No

I don't think so....don't you think that people who have reservations on Hillary's viewpoints could look at her as objectively as they do other candidates?

A couple of years ago, when there were rumors going around that Hillary might decide to run in '08, the repubs were overjoyed, feeling that she was not electable. Many on our side of the tracks agreed even then. And that's when it became clear that Hillary was never going to be a normal candidate.

But let us examine this situation--what makes Hillary any less electable than say, Carol Mosely Braun? Or Bob Graham? They both ran in the primaries in 2004, and while they both had their share of supporters, neither one of them was likely to win the presidential nomination. They ran because they had something to say, and say it, they did. They got their names out there. They were able to give their opinion on the subjects at hand. Why shouldn't the candidates who have already announced have their say on the matters at hand? They're entitled to their opinion, and while they all have their own take on topics, they all try to remain civilized in public and with each other.

Why can't we do the same? Why can't we look at Hillary and other candidates as innocent until proven guilty. We don't really know most of these people as well as we would like, and it's going to be an interesting year to see them with greater scrutiny placed on them. We might know a couple of them better--Kerry and Edwards for example, but we can't possibly know everything we would like to know about the rest of the field. Instead of prejudging them all based on a couple of factors (something which is close-minded) we need to treat them with some element of fairness and look at a wide range of factors which can help or hinder their bids for the WH. We always accuse our opponents of being incredibly narrow and restricted in their viewpoints, so why shouldn't we criticize our own when they do the exact same thing?

[cascadiance]

38. I don't think many are "Hillary Harpies" as they are "anti-corporatists"...

... who are still looking for a candidate that they can get behind. We're not willing to accept the current field as "final" just yet, much as the MSM and others might try to push us into believing that. It's nothing personal, it's just finding a way to constructively bring down the corporatocracy. And hoping that Al Gore jumps in the race!

[WinkyDink]

36. First Amendment. It's not just for Miss Manners.

"...those of us at DU are NOT going to be the ones who are going to decide who the face of America is going to be in 2008."

Precisely why you shouldn't allow "rants" to torque you up.

[MazeRat7]

37. Well said...

I too posted my one and only comment (for now) about a candidate a couple of hours ago. And yes, the rhetoric of late has significantly reduced my desire to "participate" on this board.

Sure I'll keep reading but I find myself doing :eyes: or :shrug: more than :thumbsup:

Peace,

MZr7

[StudentDUer]

39. It's called Democracy!

And it's a wonderful thing that we're exercising it like we are.

[ChiciB1]

41. What You Say Is TRUE... But To Use A "sports" Metaphor...

There's no "I" in team! We need UNITY to get things done. Having our voices heard is overwhelmingly relevant, but having it heard in UNITY makes a bigger impact!

Working to make it better does need a lot of input, but "positive" input works a little better, IMHO!