Molly Ivins on Hillary Clinton and why she will NOT vote for her...

[illinoisprogressive]

Molly is one of my all time favorite columists. I just love her and today, I found out another reason why I love her: The woman has good sense.

From Molly Ivins: Enough. Enough triangulation, calculation and equivocation. Enough clever straddling, enough not offending anyone. This is not a Dick Morris election. Sen. Clinton is apparently incapable of taking a clear stand on the war in Iraq, and that alone is enough to disqualify her. Her failure to speak out on Terri Schiavo, not to mention that gross pandering on flag-burning, are just contemptible little dodges.

And now a year later in the WaPo Hillary announces - LIKE IT'S A GOOD THING - she won't use public funds!!!:

By opting out of the system, Clinton will be able to spend as much money as she can raise, both for the primaries and for the general election, rather than being forced to abide by strict spending limits imposed by the Federal Election Commission on candidates who accept public financing.



http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0120-30.htm

[babylonsister]

1. *< - - is my bookmark. I love Molly! nt

[Pithy Cherub]

2. Hillary is on Olbermann right now confirming

every reason why I won't vote for her. She can't even acknowledge the mistake she made on the IWR without triangulating what was happening at the time and what we need to do now. :puke:

[David Dunham]

3. Hillary's going to be the Dem nominee. Get used to it.

[Pithy Cherub]

6. No she won't - GET over it!

[DIKB]

26. Just cause. . .

the Corporate Media, and the repukes want her to be, and dream happily of her being it, doesn't make it so.

[Morgana LaFey]

36. Oh, then I should just go shoot myself NOW, then? nt

[fishwax]

42. I had my doubts. But since you're from the future, I guess I've no choice but to believe

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

69. File it on top of the "Howard Dean=Inevitable Nominee" articles, LOL.

[arewenotdemo]

73. lol

[elehhhhna]

78. LOL

[Oleladylib]

43. Totally agree and I'll bet at that point Molly's tune will be

Happy Days are here again..and she will vote for her..she is too smart to not when push comes to shove.

[Pastiche423]

53. It's obvious that you do not know Molly

She's been singing her own tune since the 70's and it ain't one that Hillary would know.

[Oleladylib]

74. I guess that would mean she would vote for McCain..Guess I don't know her.

[Pastiche423]

75. Thank you for making my point

[Oleladylib]

76. Glad to do it! So you are saying she would vote for McCain?

[Pastiche423]

79. You can not put words in my mouth

I :loveya: Molly!

[Oleladylib]

82. Oh, I thought you said "Thank You for making my point" when I

said " I guess I didn't know Molly and that she would vote for McCain"...Must have misread the words in quotes..are you confused or are you saying she would vote for ANY republican in place of a vote for Hillary or are you saying she just wouldn't vote..?

[Pastiche423]

83. Naw, it is you that is confused

I said none of what you typed.

[Oleladylib]

84. OH MY GOSH! Somebody blatantly forged your name in the post

where it says.."Thank You for making my point." Illusionary...mmm..scary

[Pastiche423]

87. lol

[Oleladylib]

85. Gosh, maybe you didn't say thank you for making my point. Who did?

[Redneck Socialist]

68. LOL! I doubt that very much.

At best she will come in third in the delegate count, probably much lower. I'm going to book mark this thread for posterity.

See you next summer. :hi:

[SaveElmer]

5. And she is absolutely correct in her assertions...

She has nothing to apologize for!

[Pithy Cherub]

9. She has EVERYTHING tyo apologize for as she

was derelict in her duty to the Constitution and her constituents. She TRUSTED Bush before fellow Democrats and that speaks to a lack of judgment and moral craveness and principles that float on the river of blood her vote caused! Hillary :puke:

[SaveElmer]

14. Bullshit...

She was doing her job, just like Kerry, Edwards...all of them were and made a judgement call based on the available information...one does not have to apologize for doing her job...

[Pithy Cherub]

16. Exactly what Hillary stood for on Iraq! On Bush's Bullshit! n/t

[sandnsea]

20. Kerry has confronted Bush on his lies

Which is why he has said his vote was a mistake and took personal responsibility for it. Hillary has never done that and didn't do it tonight. I understand your point, but Bill and Hillary supported the WAR, not just the inspections process.

[SaveElmer]

23. Wrong...

She has said, correctly, that had accurate evidence been presented she would not have voted for it. She is not the one who needs to apologize, George Bush is...

I am sorry Kerry felt like he had to apologize...he did nothing wrong...I read his floor statement...it was excellent and well thought out...he had nothing to be ashamed of with that statement.

[sandnsea]

25. That's the problem

She says if we'd known there weren't any WMD, it wouldn't even have come up for a vote. Well duh. That dismisses all the issues around the intelligence lies and what the hell we're doing there in the first place. It isn't anywhere near good enough.

Her and Bill also had plenty of chances to put the skids on that train by simply saying they didn't know what WMD were left after the 1998 bombing. They didn't. They had a chance to get to the bottom of it when the yellowcake 16 words came out. But oh no, Bill went on Larry King and said all Presidents make mistakes. WTF??

Then, in this very interview, she falls back on blaming the way the war is being conducted, not that Bush lied us into it in the first place.

Her and the From Democrats decided to lay the foundation of 'tough on war' specifically for Hillary. Well it got us this nightmare of a war and she STILL won't accept her personal blame for any of it.

We let them get away with their ridiculous Vietnam revision, 'we weren't allowed to fight'; and people like her are going to let them get away with the Iraq war lies too. The world deserves better.

[SaveElmer]

28. ...

Of course they didn't know what was left after 1998, no one did...and no inspector had stepped foot in Iraq for four years. Against this Congress was receiveing detailed and explicit information from the CIA on WMD's...information even IWR opponents did not seriously dispute...

The yellowcake revelations came after the IWR by several months...

"That dismisses all the issues around the intelligence lies and what the hell we're doing there in the first place."

For which she and many others have been holding Bush's feet to the fire for some time...

"Then, in this very interview, she falls back on blaming the way the war is being conducted, not that Bush lied us into it in the first place."

She has criticized the way intelligence was manipulated on many occasions...

"Well it got us this nightmare of a war and she STILL won't accept her personal blame for any of it."

She is not personally to blame, George Bush is...George Bush manipulated the intelligence, George Bush lied to Congress, George Bush lied to the American people, George Bush abused the authority given to him in the IWR, and George Bush cut short the inspections that had resumed largely as the result of the IWR to take us to war...

Hillary has been holding the administration accountable, first for the scandals surrounding the awarding of contracts, then for intelligence manipulation, for the criminal lack of equipment, for the conduct of the war itself, for his inability to articulate a coherent plan for ending the war, for the shameful way in which wounded veterans were being treated, and for the discrimination against National Guard units in terms of health and pension benefits...

[sandnsea]

32. Get me a quote

Get me a quote where Hillary says Iraq was bombed in 1998 and all the WMD may have been destroyed at that time. Get me the quote where her or Bill opposed the WMD war drums by simply saying they might already be destroyed by the bombing.

The conduct of the war is not the legitimacy of the war. She has been an obstacle in holding Bush responsible on his lies, the oil, all of it. She does not represent anything near the kind of change I'm looking for.

[SaveElmer]

40. ...

From Madeline Albright...

"I don't think we're pretending that we can get everything, so this is - I think - we are being very honest about what our ability is. We are lessening, degrading his ability to use this. The weapons of mass destruction are the threat of the future. I think the president explained very clearly to the American people that this is the threat of the 21st century. <. . .> hat it means is that we know we can't get everything, but degrading is the right word."


No one knew exactly to what level the bombings had degraded Iraqi WMD capability...and by 2002 no inspector had entered Iraq for four years....Iraq had previously used WMD's, on at least 10 occasions, and the Congress was getting explicit intelligence from the CIA on the existence of WMD's

Virtually none of the IWR opponents seriously disputed this intelligence...the argument in October 2002 was how to best remedy the problem...

[sandnsea]

41. That's 1998 , and Albright, not the Clintons

Where's the statement in fall 2002 that we maybe have blown up the WMD and there might not be any in Iraq.

[SaveElmer]

46. Why would they?

Clinton's Secretary of State...who I think we would agree would be authorized to speak for the Clinton administration, stated very explicitly they didn't know what they would get but didn't expect to get all of it...

Add to this no inspectors in 4 years, and exlpicit intelligence from the CIA in 2002, and as most of the IWR opponents acknowledged, the conclusion arrived at by these Senators that Iraq had WMD's was not unusual, but widely held...

[sandnsea]

47. The IWR was in 2002

Good lord, that's why they would say the WMD could have been blown up, or degraded. They didn't say a word about it. They cheered this war on by ignoring that reality. If the President who ordered the strikes won't even remind the country of the strikes, then what the hell is anybody else supposed to do? That's the question I asked and not any other.

[SaveElmer]

51. The question you ask is irrelevent...

It was clear in 1998 they didn't think they got them all...why would they all of a sudden say they did in 2002...the 1998 bombings were not a secret...and the CIA said explicitly in its report to Congress that Iraq was rebuilding the infrastructure that was damaged during Desert Fox...

It's a ridiculous criticism...

[sandnsea]

52. Because the war was in 2002, duh

It isn't ridiculous just because you can't answer it.

If we lost 2004 because of the war, that was the Clinton's strategy. If we lost because of not dealing with election fraud, that was people like Donna Brazil and Terry McAuliffe - as was not having an infrastructure to get out the vote. We've lost Senate and House seats consistently since the Clintons were in control. I don't know why we'd want it back.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

56. That was the truth, as it turns out

Too bad the Clintons chose to cheer for the war instead of slow it down by considering the reason Blix couldn't find the WMD was because Clinton blew it up. They never once spoke a word about that possibility in 2002, never once. They wanted the war, just like Joe Lieberman.

[SaveElmer]

58. Uhh...Blix did not go back into Iraq until after...

The IWR...in fact the IWR was successful at getting inspectors back into Iraq until cut short by Bush!!!

[sandnsea]

62. And the Clintons were STILL silent

They were silent about the possibility that there were no WMD before the IWR, after the IWR, before the invasion, and are STILL silent about the manipulations that got us into this war. If she's elected, it'll be swept under the rug, just like Bill swept Iran/Contra and BCCI under the rug years ago. They are not good for the country or the world.

[SaveElmer]

63. That is not true...

And I will rely on your honesty to go take a look for yourself, and then come back! Not hard to find

[Elidor]

55. Any fool could see the war was bullshit before it even started.

Oops. I guess that leaves you and Hillary out. The lies that led us to war were punctured repeatedly here on DU in the run-up to the war. Ordinary people like us could see through it, but Hillary couldn't? Bullshit.

For someone who wants to be a leader, she has yet to lead on much of anything except flag-burning and hiding in the background. NOW she wants to step out front? Fine. Let's see what she's got. So far I've seen nothing to change my mind about her. Her kung-fu is weak. Her main asset? She's going to steamroller the primary by raising more cash than anyone else. She stinks. You stink. All her apologists stink. You reek of desperation as you try to excuse the inexcusable. She's not a leader, but she will do anything to win except stand on principle. Phony.

[SaveElmer]

59. Show me the authoritative evidence that the intelligence...

Was bullshit before October 2002...

And explain to me why virtually every IWR opponent as well as proponent expressed the opinion that Iraq did indeed have WMD's...

[sandnsea]

18. Mistakes were made

But can she say SHE made a mistake??? Oh no, it's "Congress" bla bla. Takes no personal responsibility at all, then says she has a 'responsibility gene'. She's criticizing the way the war is being run, not that Bush Lied to get us in the war in the first place. This country will never change if we keep putting people like her in office.

And before anybody says it, Kerry has been attacking Bush on his lies right along, as well as launching the war before the inspections process was completed. Very different thing than Hillary.

[Tellurian]

31. Is Kerry running? I haven't heard..nm

[sandnsea]

34. Don't know, doesn't matter

I'll never be a Hillary supporter. I want CHANGE. The country wants CHANGE.

[Tellurian]

35. I want someone that can WIN!

No one is going to get away with stealing any elections from the Clintons.
They have been planning this for the last 4 yrs. They'll be no excuses
when the elections are over.

We needs experienced people to get a handle on all the damage that needs to be repaired.
There isn't a candidate standing that brings the experience and the know how to the WH.

NO ONE!

[sandnsea]

37. You must not need change

I do. I know people who can't wait any longer for health care or a fair standard of living. Not to mention the young people who can't wait for it to be politically correct to end the Iraq war. If we don't win those things, then we won't win anything at all.

And it was Clinton's go to guy, McAuliffe, who didn't put the infrastructure in place to stop election thefts or move the vote in 2002 and 2004. I don't know why you would trust him to get it right this time.

[Tellurian]

48. Really...and just who is going to fill your Xmas wish list? hmm?

Stop making excuses for Kerry.. for crying out loud.
Kerry is still as disorganized as ever.
He just fired his staff and is hiring new people.

Kerry doesn't respect the rules of engagement..

Geezus, doncha know, when you go hunting, ya take your own dogs.

Kerry is an effen disaster running a campaign.

Oh, and here's your bloody quote:

Says Bush 'couldn't responsibly ignore' chance Iraq had WMDs


That's why I supported the Iraq thing. There was a lot of stuff unaccounted for," Clinton said in reference to Iraq and the fact that U.N. weapons inspectors left the country in 1998.

"So I thought the president had an absolute responsibility to go to the U.N. and say, 'Look, guys, after 9/11, you have got to demand that Saddam Hussein lets us finish the inspection process.' You couldn't responsibly ignore a tyrant had these stocks," Clinton said.

Pressed on whether the Iraq war was worth the cost to the United States, Clinton said he would not have undertaken the war until after U.N. chief weapons inspector Hans Blix "finished his job."


http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/06/19/clinton.iraq/

Tell me.. How in the Hell would Hillary suppose to know if WMD existed in Iraq in 03'?
When Bush stated unequivocally his intelligence sources say, Hussein is getting yellow cake from Niger and storing bio-weapons?

Ask an answerable question.

[sandnsea]

50. I'm talking about the Clintons

You seem to be obsessed with Kerry.

The WMD lie came out in 2003 and Bill went on Larry King and said we should just forget about it, it was just a silly mistake. HE was the one that wanted to focus on HOW the war was being prosecuted and not the lies, just like Hillary is STILL doing. Your quote proves my point.

That is a pro-war quote, exactly what I said. He didn't say anything about bombing Iraq in 1998 and possibly destroying all the WMD, or that anything that might have been left would be degraded. And that quote isn't in 2002 either, which is what I asked for. There it was, 2 years later, and the Clintons were STILL supporting Bush's war. Kerry wasn't, but he paid for their stupidity.

[Tellurian]

57. Give me a quote from Larry King..

Larry King is in the air unless you can prove what your claiming, your point is moot.

And why the reference to Kerry at the end of your statement. Kerry's stupidity was caving
into pressure from people like you, to say he made a mistake. None of the Democrats that
voted Bush could go to war as a last resort IF the country was under an imminent threat,
made a mistake. None of them knew Bush was Lying and drawing them into a Catch 22 situation.

The day is going to come when Bush is going to be held accountable.
You can rest assured it's going to happen.

Hillary is the only one who is standing her ground. I have the greatest respect for her, for
being one of the few that has a grasp of the facts that she is guilty of nothing and owes no one
an apology.



Do you even know what you're talking about sandnsea?:

your quote:

"He didn't say anything about bombing Iraq in 1998 and possibly destroying all the WMD, or that anything that might have been left would be degraded. And that quote isn't in 2002 either, which is what I asked for. There it was, 2 years later, and the Clintons were STILL supporting Bush's war."

edited for quote insertion:

Transcript: President Clinton explains Iraq strike

CLINTON: Good evening.

Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.

Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.

Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons.

I want to explain why I have decided, with the unanimous recommendation of my national security team, to use force in Iraq; why we have acted now; and what we aim to accomplish.

Six weeks ago, Saddam Hussein announced that he would no longer cooperate with the United Nations weapons inspectors called UNSCOM. They are highly professional experts from dozens of countries. Their job is to oversee the elimination of Iraq's capability to retain, create and use weapons of mass destruction, and to verify that Iraq does not attempt to rebuild that capability.

The inspectors undertook this mission first 7.5 years ago at the end of the Gulf War when Iraq agreed to declare and destroy its arsenal as a condition of the ceasefire.

The international community had good reason to set this requirement. Other countries possess weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles. With Saddam, there is one big difference: He has used them. Not once, but repeatedly. Unleashing chemical weapons against Iranian troops during a decade-long war. Not only against soldiers, but against civilians, firing Scud missiles at the citizens of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Iran. And not only against a foreign enemy, but even against his own people, gassing Kurdish civilians in Northern Iraq.


http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

[sandnsea]

65. Where were you in 2003??

"There was a disagreement between British intelligence and American intelligence. The president said it was British intelligence that said it ... British intelligence still maintains that they think the nuclear story was true. I don't know what was true, what was false. I thought the White House did the right thing in just saying, `Well, we probably shouldn't have said that.'... You know, everybody makes mistakes when they are president. I mean, you can't make as many calls as you have to make without messing up once in a while. The thing we ought to be focused on is what is the right thing to do now. That's what I think."

And the right wing went wild!! And Bill Clinton buried the yellowcake debate just as surely as he buried the WMD debate against the war before it. And Hillary is following right along in his path. Unless you support the war, I can't imagine what you could think Hillary has stood her groud on - EVER.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

70. Back on ignore

You were rude to the magistrate yesterday, now this. Good bye.

[Tellurian]

71. Believe me sandnsea..I have no need for your validation one way or the other..

[Oleladylib]

45. I really hope not..his mouth will get him in trouble.

[Casablanca]

4. Molly rocks. She's so out-of-step with the "vote with the polls" mindset. nt

[lancdem]

7. Um, every other major candidate also is expected to opt out

according to press reports. Why is it only bad when Hillary does it? :shrug:

[Dinger]

8. How Is Molly Doing?

Isn't she getting cancer treatments? I hope she is doing well.

[Pastiche423]

21. I've asked the same thing about Molly

w/no response. Couldn't find anything on Goggle either.

I agree w/Molly!

[LoZoccolo]

61. Really? I think Molly should be examined for brain parasites.

Something is not right up there.

[onehandle]

10. Who will she vote for in the General?

My guess is for the Democrat.

[AndreaCG]

13. Wasn't Ivins a Nadreite?

After 8 years of Shrub, she of all people should know better. She knew him from Texas.

She'd be a fucking idiot not to support the Democratic nominee.

[NNadir]

27. Bingo.

I'm really fucking tired of Molly Ivens.

I think she had a conflict of interest. Without Bush nobody would pay attention to her.

Hilliary Clinton is not my favorite candidate, but she's a fuck load more ethical and competent than that piece of shit, for whom Ivens did so much, Ralph Nader.

[Mend]

30. agree....read her early books when she giggles about bush...

when he was governor, she implied he was just a good ole boy, nothing to worry about. No warnings when they could have helped from someone who should have known the depth of his evilness.

[porphyrian]

11. I like that lady. - n/t

[jaxx]

12. WoW!

Molly pulls no punches. And she's right. The candidates need to stand up and spit out what will make this country right again.........or sit down and shut up.

[Cha]

15. Molly Ivins and I think

alike. She knows a fake when she's studied one..and a freakin' dynasty wannabe to boot.

We need a leader for a change not another corporatewhore.

[adigal]

81. You don't like Madam Fundraiser???

I was under the impression from the MSM that we all LOVED her! And that Hillary had a strong netroots beginning!! LOL!

Hillary is all about Hillary, and there is no way she will try to undo the damage NAFTA, which her beloved signed into law and which is ruining our middle class, has done.

War - Hillary wrong
Economy - Hillary wrong

[WiseButAngrySara]

17. Thanks for posting this. First I agreed w/ Sheehan re Hillary,

and now with Ivins. BOTH women and BOTH who would give anything to be able to support Clinton without any quirks of conscience--and both with major quirks of conscience.

[jody]

19. I love Molly but Repugs hate her. Thanks Molly, you're opposition to Hillary adds Repug votes. n/t

[spooky3]

22. this column appeared in January 2006--one year ago

check out her predictions. Very interesting.

[babylonsister]

33. Damn, that's spooky.

I couldn't resist! :D

[spooky3]

38. hehe!

:hi:

[bonito]

24. Molly is one sharp woman

Her column's are like magnets to me eyeballs.

[progressivebydesign]

29. In the general election? Well.. hope y'all like President Jeb.

Cuz any liberal worth their salt wouldn't DREAM of voting for anyone but the Democratic candidate in the general election. Hey.. it's one thing in the primaries, that's where we show our individualism. But the General Election? Vote for anyone but the Democrat and we're looking at yet another 8 years of Bush rule (waiting on Jeb to announce any day now). It's just not fucking worth it to make a statement. How many have died in the past 6 years because of who is in the White House?

[The Count]

39. I won't vote for Hillary either, but Molly's advice on voting...not really reliable...

Nader in 2000. she said Clark was rich and dean was poor in ger 2004 BS piece - I am starting to think there may be something good about Hillary if Molly opposes her.

[oasis]

44. Molly "Mover and Shaker" Ivins refuses to support Hillary. Tsk, tsk.

:cry:

[unkachuck]

49. thank you Molly....n/t

[LoZoccolo]

60. Molly Ivins is on super-duper ignore. n/t

[JVS]

77. lol

[Pastiche423]

64. Why is the ignore feature not working?

It'd be nice for the admins to tell us when they turn it off!

[MODemocrat]

67. Has Molly voted for many democratic candidates?

She seems to be liberal, and, I've heard that she votes the Independent Ticket. She didn't vote for the Clintons, even before these things took place that's making her indifferent to Hillary.

[mnhtnbb]

72. Go Molly!

[bigluckyfeet]

80. To Hell with hillary

No more *,no more clintons.

[Oleladylib]

86. Okay..you bought a McCain...Enjoy..

[Breeze54]

88. Right on! Thanks for posting this!

From Molly Ivins:

"Enough. Enough triangulation, calculation and equivocation. Enough clever straddling,
enough not offending anyone. This is not a Dick Morris election.
Sen. Clinton is apparently incapable of taking a clear stand on the war in Iraq, and that
alone is enough to disqualify her. Her failure to speak out on Terri Schiavo, not to mention
that gross pandering on flag-burning, are just contemptible little dodges."

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: