The Official Kyl-Lieberman Panic Thread

[Zandor]

If some folks would like to come down off the ledge and read the amendment, they might realize democracy will survive. Much offending language was removed.

What language remaining is so troubling?

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/kyl-lieberman-amendment/

[Jim__]

1. Your link doesn't work.

[Zandor]

2. Fixed I think n/t

[againes654]

3. The part that bothers me is that

they labeled the Iranian army a terrorist organization, and bushco has promised to hunt down terrorists and those that support/harbor terrorists.

[Selatius]

5. That could provide a backdoor entrance to a war with Iran.

That's the greatest worry at the present time.

[USA_1]

32. AND IT'S FURTHER PROOF THAT WE DO NOT NEED A DRAFT!!!

For several months now on this forum some of you have repeatedly (and stupidly, I might add) insist that having a draft was the sure fire way to stop all further war. You continually insist that Republicans would hesitate to expand upon their war plans if a draft existed. Recall that I have been saying just the opposite.

A draft will not stop war if the Republicans continue to get the Congressional votes they want from Democrats. Moreover, none of those pols are going to send their children off to war. You have to have your brains stuck up your smelly butts to believe any of that pro draft propaganda shit.

What we needed all along is a war profits tax that takes away all incentive to create war. This tax should be a permament one with strong enforcement provisions. That, and only that, will stop Republican and Democrat war plans and imperialist expansionism.

Now do you finally see?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

33. Yup. I have no doubt BushCO & the neocons will use that back door, too.

No doubt, whatsoever.

[blondeatlast]

6. Yep--that language is still there. The "terrorist" label allows Bush

to freeze assets and cause all other mayhem (in the classic sense of the word).

Can't be pointed out too often, IMHO.

[cali]

9. slight correction

they labeled the Revolutionary Guard, a terrorist organization, not the Iranian Army. But I agree with you; that's what disturbed me too.

[ShortnFiery]

4. NO, we've just given a blank check to The Unitary Executive to initiate WW fucking III. nt

[EFerrari]

7. Yep. And/but, they really don't need a hard copy.

They have a limitless line of "credit".

[cali]

11. no. bush already had the blank check

under Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution and the War Powers Resolution of 1973. What they did, is give him cover and legitimacy, even though it's only a Sense of the Senate.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. This part. (With thanks to MadMom for the original post on another thread defending the vote).

(5) that the United States should designate the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps as a foreign terrorist organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act and place the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists, as established under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act and initiated under Executive Order 13224;

AND THEN... this allows * to act on terrorist organizations:

Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq



Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on terrorism through the provision of authorities and funding requested by the President to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001 or harbored such persons or organizations;

Whereas the President and Congress are determined to continue to take all appropriate actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;

Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40); and

[Atman]

10. By labeling Iran's security force a "TERRORIST" org, Bush has carte blanche

It's that simple. Those simple words. It's in previous resolutions that Bush can do anything he wants to "protect" us from "terrorist" threats. Now that Iran is officially a "Terrorist" threat, all bets are off.

Or should be, anyway. It's pretty clear what Bush wants to do.

.

[tekisui]

12. This part bothers me:

2) that it is a vital national interest of the United States to prevent the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran from turning Shi'a militia extremists in Iraq into a Hezbollah-like force that could serve its interests inside Iraq, including by overwhelming, subverting, or co-opting institutions of the legitimate Government of Iraq;

(3) that it should be the policy of the United States to combat, contain, and roll back the violent activities and destabilizing influence inside Iraq of the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran, its foreign facilitators such as Lebanese Hezbollah, and its indigenous Iraqi proxies;

(4) to support the prudent and calibrated use of all instruments of United States national power in Iraq, including diplomatic, economic, intelligence, and military instruments, in support of the policy described in paragraph (3) with respect to the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran and its proxies;

(5) that the United States should designate the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps as a foreign terrorist organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act and place the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists, as established under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act and initiated under Executive Order 13224; and

(6) that the Department of the Treasury should act with all possible expediency to complete the listing of those entities targeted under United Nations Security Council Resolutions 1737 and 1747 adopted unanimously on December 23, 2006 and March 24, 2007, respectively.

It authorizes military instruments to be used against Iran. And officially calls their military terrorists. Now, the US can *legally* attack Iran.

[annabanana]

16. that's the old wording

(read a few threads & catch up)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1910906

[mmonk]

13. Page 8

[mmonk]

14. It's kinda like Russia declaring a war on terror around the globe with authorization to strike

what it considers terrorist organizations and then designating the 82nd Airborne and the 101st as terrorist organizations.

[uppityperson]

15. You asked a question, got answers. Any reply or is this a Hit and Run insult?

[blondeatlast]

18. $5 on hit and run to win. nt

[uppityperson]

25. maybe we're all on ignore?

OP blah blah blah blah

ignored
ignored
ignored
ignored
ignored
ignored

[blondeatlast]

26. He's the only DUer I know of who has publicly stated he's okay

with bombing Iran--not just attacking, but bombing.

[uppityperson]

27. Thanks, I hadn't seen that.

[blondeatlast]

28. Here's the suggestion, it gets much worse after that:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1901170&mesg_id=1901301

Brace yourself.

[uppityperson]

29. "here is me without my space hat"

gets funny later. Yup, that poster is a special one.

[gatorboy]

19. Hit & Run.

Or maybe he's too busy signing up to do battle...But probably not.

[blondeatlast]

30. Of course--or maybe he'll be on the frontline diplomatic contingent. nt

[Vilis Veritas]

17. This is not about whether or not democracy will survive,

it is about at what cost to the lives of Americans and foreign nationals and the credibility of the United States and its people.

We cannot allow North Korea, Iran, Iraq or similar states to undermine American leadership, intimidate American allies or threaten the American homeland itself. The blessings of the American peace, purchased at fearful cost and a century of effort, should not be so trivially squandered.

From 'Rebuilding America's Defenses' the PNAC Manifesto. Page 75

To deny the march to war is to deny reality.

No Fear.

EDITED: spelling...

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. The paragraph that was cut was the one which restricted US

reactions to 'within Iraq'. That means our reaction can (and will) be cross-border.

That means war.

[peacetalksforall]

21. Don't fool yourself. If we invade Iran, this is what they will turn to and

the will flip it. This is their TOOL. Whatever george wants, some Dems give him.

[peacetalksforall]

22. JOE LEIBERMAN works for for DICK CHENEY and DICK CHENEY and JOE LEIBERMAN have promised Israel.

We'll have the background to prove it - we always get it.

[damntexdem]

23. Point 4 is worst:

"to support the prudent and calibrated use of all instruments of United States national power in Iraq, including diplomatic, economic, intelligence, and MILITARY instruments, in support of the policy described in paragraph (3) with respect to the Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran and its proxies"

emphasis on Military is mine

[uppityperson]

31. I think they dumped 3 and 4, or changed them a bunch. Or is that the changed one you quote?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

24. You are such a...

buzzzzzzy buzzzzzzy little web bee!