How Do I Put this Nicely Without Offending Anyone?

[AuntPatsy]

I have never once proclaimed to understand the truth depths of the political arena, in that respect I find coming to this site beneficial to my not only want but "NEED" to understand just exactly what it is that upsets me so much about the political climate.

It's only my opinion but mine nevertheless so I will state it that far too many people on this board have no real wish to understand the inner workings of how politics work, most of the threads which valiantly attempt to explain such get ignored more often than not and sink so fast one would think this site has nothing at all to do with working inside the political spectrum but more so just a place to vent one's obvious lack of true understanding which leaves them resentful and angry but at times after reading so many posts one has to wonder just who they are angry at and what they are angry about.

You don't have to be able to write using words most ordinary folks have trouble comprehending, having such does not make your position any less valid than one who cannot voice their concerns in the same manner, I think in that lies a huge problem for quite a few Dur's, they don't feel they are up to par with arguing or debating, whichever word applies their points of view without resorting to mindless rhetoric that is no better than the school yard bully who everyone despised in the early years.

I'm not sure about you but I left other boards years ago for just that reason, name calling and unwarranted ridiculously worded attacks that went on and on but said little and meant even less.

Do I feel like that atmosphere of Du has changed? Yes, definitely I do, some of the best voices have left us some time ago, thankfully we still have many that have stood it out and still come here sharing this wisdom but we could have them all, what is so wrong with debating your opinions with "facts" as we know them, along with links and proof of where we have come up with those facts.

And in doing so what is wrong with allowing someone to question those very facts you present with a much needed style of calm temperament and reasonable doubt?

I wonder sometimes just exactly some of us truly could be called as far as political style labeling.


What are Dem's for?

What are the re pubs for?

What are independents for?

What are progressives for?

What are fundies for?


Do we relay understand just exactly where those that label themselves are coming from?

To be honest with you I have become confused as to what most Dur's want from this country's politicians.

All that I know is that my beliefs do NOT stem from my personal biases nor do they come from my personal needs to have a satisfying life, they come more from viewing the world around me and the constant obvious need to fight those that continue to act as if they must be the decider in how myself or others live their lives by aiding in enacting laws to ensure we meet with just those terms set by others needs.

Bottom line is that I don't feel the need to demand other's adhere to the same values and or lifestyle that I choose to live mine.

If life was so valuable their would be no death period.....If people were supposed to be similar to the next their would be no different ethnic groups.....if sexual orientations were so cut and dry people would not be born with both and our genetic makeup for want of a simple way to state that science has proven that it is entirely possible to be born what some call gayness so why the constant bickering about it.

I don't care if people choose to believe that man was not made until God made him from a lump of clay and in the same respect I don't care if people choose to believe we evolved from apes. Seriously, what difference does our personal beliefs really make to the world around us?

Do I dislike certain people, most definitely and yet how I deal with that dislike is that I just stay away from them, pretty simple to do.

Someone once told me that the world is infinite we are not and considering the very powerful forces that nature has shown us can so easily do us in I would have to say he had wisdom....

Why can't we just except that we are not all that special? Why is that so hard to do? Do we have to feel special or can we just live our lives day to day and just have at least some hope that when we go in won't be as painful as it was to get through some days, everyone has those, to pretend you don't or never had is in my mind a lie.

Why can't we expect truth? Why is sometimes the truth too hard to bare? And why can't we realize that someone's truth is not always the truth for another? Why can't we learn to get along better, why can't we learn to tolerate each other more? Why are we so worried about dying when its inevitable and nothing we can do can change that, thats a fact no one can dispute nor argue nor debate without looking foolish. I think for me its the only real truth that I can rely on.

I wish the other thing I could rely on is that Du would go back to the place I once found refuge in from those that hate simply to hate and with no real reason to other than an intolerant viewpoint of excepting the fact that those we all bleed red we are different and hey, its okay, it really is.

Sorry if this bores anyone

[ret5hd]

1. Well, i never!!! Welcome to my ignore list!!!

;)

[AuntPatsy]

4. ;-) Lol, for some that means you've arrived, thank you....

:yourock:

even if my post lacks true intelligence or approved intellectual debating techniques, at least I got a response, appreciate it honestly.

[melody]

21. Actually, I use my ignore list for the people who do name-call and use personal attacks

Don't knock the ignore list ... it's very helpful for surviving DU. lol

[CT_Progressive]

2. I totally agree with you.

This is a website filled with normal people, who don't necessarily have a real grasp on how politics work in our country. Some do, and that's great. But most do not, and I guess thats ok too. A board like this sometimes is a place for people to just vent, gripe or ask questions.

[Mutineer]

3. I agree with you too.

I've seen too many very, very, very naiive posters, not to mention all the conspiracy theorists and butt-kissers. We need to deal in reality, not in what we WISH could be. We have to accept this world as it is at this moment and work from there to make it better. I've seen a lot of posts from people who just aren't that informed on the other side or ANY side and then they cop a radical attitude based on very limited information. It's frustrating to read.

[AuntPatsy]

9. Agree, Ive done the same and in doing so I learned nothing, One of the

main reasons I read more than post, but every now and then I like to put words to the woman who does read and admire so many on this board.

I love Du even with it's faults we are people, good bad and ugly and we make the world interesting, as a group, not alone, how boring it would be if we just had ourselves to deal with and how really boring it would be to have someone constantly agree with your every word....it would take the little bit of fun out of life to live in such a world in my opinion.

[AuntPatsy]

10. I agree, nothing wrong with venting and nothing wrong with realizing we are normal

and normal is okay. But all in all this is a great avenue to attempt to understand how politics has evolved and how it is working in today's climate.

[Flabbergasted]

53. Excellent Post. K and R.

Why do we need to feel special? To our ego acknowledging the truth is death.

(on edit meant to reply to OP)

[AndyA]

5. I pretty much think most of it is OK, until a person starts to personally attack you.

When they become insulting, belittling, rude, abrasive, or start calling you names, that's where it needs to end.

It's possible to disagree and still learn something from it, but when a person gets out of line, they've just lost the opportunity to teach me anything, or show me where I'm wrong.

When that happens, it's best to just walk away from that thread and not look back. They aren't worth it if they have to insult you to make their point.

Yes, DU has changed recently - there seem to be more willing to cross the line and insult others. But that's mostly their issue and their loss, no doubt they do it on other boards as well. :shrug:

[AuntPatsy]

12. I agree it is their loss, some people with high IQS find it hard to understand

that those with less are just as interesting and can be if given the chance just as informative just in a different way, no reason to lord it over people like me at times.

[AndyA]

17. Exactly.

And today's novice is tomorrow's expert, given the opportunity.

I try not to close doors on anyone, because I believe everyone has something to offer, even if they don't believe they do. We can all learn from others. And most experts got to be experts by listening to others.

Which makes me really wonder about the ones who think they're experts, but have to resort to rude remarks and insults. :shrug:

[melody]

27. And people with truly high IQs know that an IQ only measures certain types of intellect

Therefore, people with supposedly "lower IQs" shouldn't feel threatened by people with high IQs. Their type of intellect simply hasn't been mapped by a testing method.

[AuntPatsy]

32. Exactly, I saw some testing recently on tv and what is proved was that

for some with higher IQS they showed a lower common sense factor, it was really interesting, what some don't realize is that IQS are mostly based on one's ability to have something of a photogenic memory chip where they can read something once and never forget it and be able to repeat it the same way it was read even if they veer off slightly.

The test also showed that those with an ability to understand the written word and repeat it eloquently would more or less fail if they had to survive nature without a society protecting them.

very interesting show, strength was also seen as an useful ability that could very well win over someone who can easily pass an IQ test.

But having at least one strength helps and I don't believe the current commander in chief to possess any real strength other than being born into a high society family.

I think on his own he would more than likely end up homeless and or jailed.

[melody]

52. Precisely

My SB IQ is 160 but I can't find my way out of my doctor's office without wall signs. I'm serious.
My husband is supposedly dyslexic which seems to be an ignorant term for having a 3D cad system in
the brain. My husband can literally "see" a schematic in his head, then move it around to look at it in detail. We don't have a way of measuring that ability, though, so we call it a "disability".

[niceypoo]

6. Sadly, in America, it comes down to left or right

And the two party system is broken. We have no real choices in this country and the two choices we do have are at each others throats, so less and less gets done. I cant see this country being functional much longer with the present system. Its just to polarized.

[AuntPatsy]

13. My husband and I are as far left and far right as one can be and yet thirty

years in two weeks and we can somehow function, it takes work, it's give and take, I may not like having to give an inch but I learned as has he that in order to reside in the same place we have no choice, its not that hard to do...

[Kajsa]

7. Great post, Aunt Patsy.

I've heard it stated,

" you are entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts".

A good discussion, with varied opinions, based on facts
( that can be substantiated) is what debate is about.

This " my way or the highway" reminds me too damn much of
the BA mantra, " you are with us or against us".

Thanks so much for a thoughtful, great post.

:hi: :applause:


K&R.

[AuntPatsy]

14. And thank you for taking the time to read it. I would like to see those good discussions

abound more frequently, and your right it is what debating is all about and it can be not only informative to gather facts for the oncoming debate but fun as well.

[acmavm]

8. Yep! We're all morons who couldn't spell CAT if you spotted us

the C and the T.

[AuntPatsy]

15. ;-) I love that spell check, makes me feel smart.

[H2O Man]

11. Nominated.

Very interesting. Thank you for posting this.

[AuntPatsy]

16. I wish I could write as well as some but this is me, honestly thank you for taking the time to read

what could have been ten times better if I took more time to c choreograph my thoughts but sometimes we don't do that nor have the time. I know many work that visit here and I love seeing the different opinions and the different people that come through so vividly when reading not only what they write but how,, you, you I see as poetic and spiritual in how you post and in my world that holds my attention....

I don't post that often because my husband thinks this is a waste of time but I read as often as I can and as many as I can and you always.

[emilyg]

18. Thank you.

[AuntPatsy]

33. Your welcome.

[Zodiak]

19. A good post, and I agree

this place is chock full of people who think they know everything and will spend 100+ posts a day trying to prove it while stepping on everyone's heads. If there was a ten post a day limit, I think the level of discourse on this board would rise because most of the nasty people are VERY prodigious posters.

[AuntPatsy]

34. Some people don't have alot of patience with others they feel are not on their level

of intellect, others with high intelligence love being able to share their knowledge and don't mind having to perhaps repeat it, character has alot to do with it.

[melody]

20. Because we are all, at base, primates

Most people react out of emotion -- emotions drive their judgments, their means of expression, etc. Most people think in fundamental ways. Thus, it often becomes a fight between extremes.

[AuntPatsy]

35. I'm guilty of responding with emotion at times but as I have grown older

I've learned to listen more and talk less and I find I learn more that way.

[melody]

42. We all respond with emotion - the key is to not mistake our own emotional reaction as "truth"

For many, it feels like that. I don't mean you, just a kind of general trend on message boards.

[tomreedtoon]

22. We're not DU'er's...we're DURs!

This reminds me of the retarded kid from a Bill Cosby routine, running around in his underwear screaming "Dur! Dur! Dur! Dur! Dur! Dur!"

Come to think of it, there's a lot of people on DU that DO act like that.

[JuniperLea]

28. It reminded me of Carlos Mencia...

Dee Dee Dee!


:rofl:

[AuntPatsy]

38. I kind of like using the term, I honestly find being part of such a great group

feels good at times. I might not agree with the way everyone interacts but for the most part I seriously think this is the best site on the net today for those frustrated with today's political grandstanding.

[nashville_brook]

23. well said. i'd add that not every post needs to "be argued" -- i think that's a bias

in itself.

the thing i liked best about DU (back in the day) was the spirit of shared enterprise. someone came along with some info and others added to it with links and commentary.

for some people, "arguing" is the only kind of communication done online, and that's a form of bullying -- and i bet if you asked, expats from any forum, 9 out of 10 would say the reason for leaving was to avoid the environment of attack. non-bullies tend to depart a warzone voluntarily leaving a forum where bullies are the majority -- ergo, every statement postures for a retort. every retort is met with anger, and the forum becomes inhospitable to discussion.

[AuntPatsy]

39. I'd have to agree, I love seeing that as well when everyone comes together

adding more information from doing investigating themselves involving a certain issue. I agree that it is a type of bullying behavior from those who do nothing more than find argumentative style of communicating more to their liking, a character flaw is how I see them. Others are obviously here to simply disrupt the momentum of gathering facts and fighting these criminals who run our country.

[bvar22]

24. In a nutshell:

This is what most of America (Democrats & Republicans) want from opur government.
DU is not much different from the rest of America when it comes to these issues.

In recent polls by the Pew Research Group, the Opinion Research Corporation, the Wall Street Journal, and CBS News, the American majority has made clear how it feels. Look at how the majority feels about some of the issues that you'd think would be gospel to a real Democratic Party:

1. 65 percent (of ALL Americans, Democrats AND Republicans) say the government should guarantee health insurance for everyone -- even if it means raising taxes.

2. 86 percent favor raising the minimum wage (including 79 percent of selfdescribed "social conservatives").

3. 60 percent favor repealing either all of Bush's tax cuts or at least those cuts that went to the rich.

4. 66 percent would reduce the deficit not by cutting domestic spending but by reducing Pentagon spending or raising taxes.

5. 77 percent believe the country should do "whatever it takes" to protect the environment.

6. 87 percent think big oil corporations are gouging consumers, and 80 percent (including 76 percent of Republicans) would support a windfall profits tax on the oil giants if the revenues went for more research on alternative fuels.

7. 69 percent agree that corporate offshoring of jobs is bad for the U.S. economy (78 percent of "disaffected" voters think this), and only 22% believe offshoring is good because "it keeps costs down."

http://alternet.org/story/29788/

8. Over 63% oppose the War on the Iraqi People.

9. 92% of ALL Americans support TRANSPARENT, VERIFIABLE elections!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x446445

The divide on DU is over the methodology.

Side 1. If you want any of the above, you MUST support the Democrat no matter what they say or do becuase you won't be getting any of that from a Republican.
Party Unity above ALL.


Side 2. Some Democrats have a history of supporting issues that move us away from the above goals. Supporting Democrats who move America away from Working Class values is counter productive.
Unity is stupid if we are united behind the wrong goals.

These two sides are fighting it out for the Heart of Our Party.

[TahitiNut]

30. 65% x 86% x 60% x 66% x 77% x 87% x 69% x 63% x 92% = 6%

:shrug:

[AuntPatsy]

41. In a nutshell, pun intended, that is really interesting and your right we are not that

far away from each other concerning really important issues. The trouble comes when people give up their values and or needs in order to just play follow the leader even when they know it is self defeating.

[lumpy]

25. All I know is that some of the stuff posted here should be

confined to the lounge. Flame baiting has become rampant. I agree with your post completely, Aunt Patsy.

[AuntPatsy]

44. I think your right, I rarely go to the lounge but I think this site needs such, a good way

to take a break, but I think the reason the lounge was made is valid and great for people in Du and what goes on there should remain there.

[JMDEM]

26. Yes, it is all a cosmic game, and we are a part of that game, and we are all God's Children

But a part of that game is playing the game the best you can.

So many near death experiences start with a holy figure (Jesus, or whoever your personal savior is) asking the person "did you live a meaningful life? Was your life rich and full? Did you help others? Did you give and receive lots and lots of love?"

Regarding politics: what we have now is a rare and precious commodity -- some degree of freedom for the common person. Look back on history and see how incredibly rare that is. We cannot lose it. If we do, then we return to the dark ages where life was short and meaningless, and our life reviews may only cover 30 or 40 years, at best, and perhaps the most noble thing we did was share a blanket with the other freezing person next to us.

I think politics, done right, is a noble fight, and worthy of our efforts. I think most people at DU CARE. Perhaps too much sometimes -- perhaps so much it hurts, and we get enraged at the injustices we become aware of. And this rage can turn into bitterness and cynicism. There is a lot of injustice in the world. And it is a noble cause to fight it when we see it. We just have to make sure that in fighting injustice "we" don't become "them".

[AuntPatsy]

43. Your last line is what worries me the most, I agree, I don't want to become

that which I abhore and it is a fine line sometimes that can be easy to cross.

[Trillo]

29. Nice!

You wrote: "...the constant obvious need to fight those that continue to act as if they must be the decider in how myself or others live their lives by aiding in enacting laws to ensure we meet with just those terms set by others needs."

That seems how it is designed, to keep us fighting with each other, to take us well past democratic agreement and discovery, to take us deliberately into democratic division. That way, the shadow rulers can continue to operate the privatized money-printing presses, because we're fighting about lessor things they created to keep us divided.

[AuntPatsy]

45. I don't wish to start another fight but I think the smoking issue is nothing more than a "smoke

screen" pun intended that aids in keeping people divided if the number of threads of that very subject is any indication.

[RainDog]

31. k & r

GREAT post. thank you.

here's my try at some personal understanding.

[AuntPatsy]

46. I should begin spending a little more time reading people's journals...

I think that is a good place for people to allow others a closer look into who they are and what they stand for....Thank you for the link.

[earth mom]

36. I wasn't interested in politics until I got a DSL connection and was able to surf the net easily

and began to learn and understand what was really going on in this country and the world. Oh how I loved DU when I first came here-lol! But I quickly learned that the freepers and the paid moles will do their damnedest to muddy the water and stir the pot around here. They thrive on it. They are loud, they are obnoxious and they don't give up. But believe me when I say that they are the minority. I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that all the propaganda that is being spewed at us is not what the majority of people in this country believe. Not by a long shot.

The political rhetoric that the talking heads on T.V. use is what turns people off to Politics. Most of them are a bunch of overpaid bores who are paid to promote the corporate view and they have not a clue to how real people live and how real people think. Sure, they have succeeded in brainwashing SOME of the people but not all. They are now aware that the tide has turned and that many in America have woken up to the lies, deception and corruption that is running rampant in this country. The knives are out because the talking heads and the powers that be are worried and afraid-OF US.


I expect it will get rougher around here in the months to come.

But, the thing of it is-is that I'm stubborn-I dig my heals in when the going gets rough.

I won't give up. We can't give up.

Speaking truth to power (and to freeper moles) is important, now more than ever.

[AuntPatsy]

47. I agree with you, I have no desire to give up, not at this stage nor the next....

and perhaps it is a good thing they come here, maybe they will one day get it if they are forced to read it all on a daily basis. What do they say, sometimes if you hear it enough it finally becomes truth....

[DefenseLawyer]

37. If hand wringing produced electricity

DU could light up half the country

[AuntPatsy]

49. LOL that is a good one and for the most part true but then again everytime

you take a look at today's headlines it is enough to make anyone wring their hands and shake their heads without missing a beat. Each day it seems brings another outrage.....trying times we live in, though I believe that to be true from the beginning of time it is just easier with world wide access to be unable to go even one day without hearing of another attrocity.

[librechik]

40. there's too many of us for us all to behave

it's like watching a movie in a big crowded theater instead of in a tiny arthouse with just the devotees.

Damn it's annoying when those jackasses down in front start slapping each other, laughing and cursing.
But it's such a good movie, I think I can overlook the roughhousing, or avoid it. I'm a big girl!

[AuntPatsy]

50. ;-) I like that analogy....

[alfredo]

48. I've been here for a long time. DU is always a mess around election time.

There's always a bit of ugliness and hurt feelings. I just try to stay out of it.

The partisanship spills over to other topics because everyone is a bit on edge. After the primaries, things will cool and there will be a bit more unity.

[AuntPatsy]

51. I hope so but I just feel as if its getting more desperate than in years past

which means its liable to become even uglier than anyone will be able to handle if not addressed.

[alfredo]

55. We have problems dealing with success. We had become comfortable

being in the minority. It will take a while to get our sea legs.

[B Calm]

54. You don't care much for periods, do you?