I believe that we SHOULD give undocumented people driver's licenses.

[crispini]

I'm from Texas. And yes, we have a LOT of undocumented workers here. Everybody knows this.

Now, twice in my life I have been in fender-benders. Both times, it was not my fault and both times the person who hit me ran off. Both times, the guy who hit me was subsequently caught, and found to be -- surprise -- an undocumented worker driving without a license and without insurance. So, what would have been an ordinary fender-bender where insurance was exchanged and the two participants went their merry way, turns into a call to 911, with extra police resources used, and it gets claimed on MY insurance instead of this other person's insurance, which doesn't reflect well on ME.

This anecdotal evidence is just an example of the statistical facts that Gov. Richardson cited in last night's debate: When they allowed undocumented workers to get licenses, the rate of uninsured motorists went DOWN. Thus preventing more of this kind of thing.

I'm looking at what is a very real, everyday problem for law enforcement and comparing the practical value of doing this, as opposed to the very hypothetical "They'll get drivers' licenses and get on planes and blow them up booga booga TERRA!"

Now. Flame away; asbestos pantsuit ON. ;)

[rodeodance]

1. i have always agreed to this-for public safety reasons.

[mvd]

38. Agreed

I did some research, and it appears that more illegal immigrants drive than I thought. The only conflict would be if the licenses lead to illegals being caught.

[emilyg]

72. Yes.

[Toucano]

81. Agreed.

A license to drive is nothing more.

It's in our interests to have all drivers qualified.

[CT_Progressive]

2. Pros and Cons

Pros:
- Their name is in the system
- Their picture is in the system
- Their age is in the system
- Their height, weight, eye color is in the system
- Their current address is in the system
- They still actually have to PASS a driving test to get a drivers license, so now we know the roads are safer.
- They still actually have to have insurance (in most places) to get the license, as well as a Registered car.

Cons:
- none whatsoever except paranoia from the chickenshit repukes.

[frazzled]

23. The only "con" I can see is ...

I think very few undocumented workers would come forward to obtain a license--they would risk deportation.

So the question is kind of moot, in the end. I think Obama was correct to say this is a distracting wedge issue question.

I really would prefer if every driver on the road with me were a licensed and insured driver--for my safety and that of others. But I think it's kind of unenforceable, except, alas, on the case by case basis when an accident does happen.

[crispini]

28. It sounds like in the experience of NM shows that they DO get a license

New Mexico last year became the latest state to issue driver's licenses to illegal immigrants, and officials say the change has helped contribute to a drop in the state's uninsured rate, which in December of 2002 was 33 percent the highest in the nation and now is 17 percent. Insurance premiums also have dropped in that state and fewer people are fleeing accident scenes, according to Moran of the National Immigration Law Center. Almost 14,000 of the state's estimated 150,000 illegal immigrants have obtained licenses in the past year.

http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=15696

[LakeSamish706]

3. The only question that I would ask is; Do you think even though...

said Illegal Alien has a drivers license that they would stick around at the scene? I don't think so, cause they are still illegal and giving them a drivers license isn't going to change that!

[Dhalgren]

I disagree with your framing. The worker is not "illegal", the employer is.

The worker just comes to get a job that is offered to him/her; this whole issue is based on race and everyone knows it - whether they will admit it or not.

[LakeSamish706]

13. You can disagree with it all you want, but the fact still is the person is in...

this country illegally and therefore is an Illegal Alien....

[SharkSquid]

26. What a BS

Straw man argument...

It is not about race to me and plenty of other people who see this as a huge problem.

[yardwork]

27. The issue is about race and it's about the treatment of human labor.

The entire capitalist myth falls apart when we look at the conditions in which the majority of people around the world are required to work. A few of us live like kings, and the rest of the human population are treated as slaves.

[LakeSamish706]

32. Its got absolutely nothing to do with race... its got to do with laws and borders...

And if you don't care about either of those, then we may just as well disband our borders and forget about our laws... Just have a free for all and who gives a rats ass who enters or leaves this country?

And I take serious exception to those that keep turning this argument into a race issue!

[yardwork]

78. If it has nothing to with ethnicity, then why is our border with Canada unguarded?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

87. Because far fewer people try to cross it illegally?

Even with guards to the South and not to the North, far more people immigrate illegally into America from Mexico than Canada.

[VP505]

33. You have to

ignore a whole hell of a lot of negative economic facts to conclude that those opposed to illegal immigration only do so because of race.

[Dhalgren]

48. If there are jobs for these workers; and when they come to apply for these

jobs they are hired; they rent homes, buy and sell in the economy, pay taxes - in short do everything that any other worker here would do, but they are denied legal status - why? Why does this country deny legal status to these workers? There are jobs waiting for them. They are hired and participate in the economy and society like anyone else, yet are not granted legal status - isn't that odd? Why do you think this is so?

[VP505]

58. With 9, repeat 9

guest worker programs and three or four million allowed to immigrate here legally its misleading to claim that "they are denied legal status." Maybe the requirements are more stringent than what they could be, maybe the process could be streamlined to allow it to be faster, maybe the numbers allowed could be higher. Fact is that the USA has a more generous immigration and guest worker policy than most countries in spite of all its faults.

[crispini]

60. Respectfully,

I'd like to see some links to back up your assertions. :)

[yardwork]

79. A North Carolina Economic research group did a study and found a net gain.

Latino immigrants provide a net gain to the state's economy, not a drain.

[grasswire]

36. how are they not here illegally...

...if they are breaking federal law to be here? I know it's a word game, but the twisting of the reality defies logic.

If you were driving the wrong way on the freeway, you would be driving illegally.

If you were squatting in a public building, you would be occupying it illegally.

So how is it that we can't use the word illegal for illegal activity?

[crispini]

46. It's framing. Read Lakoff; words are important. nt

[crispini]

15. Hey, if you've got a DL and you've got insurance, we don't even call the cops here.

The police would not have been involved in any of those crashes had the person not fled. Why did the person flee? Because they had no DL and no insurance. It looks like NM's experience shows that this works.

[Dhalgren]

4. No flame here, crispini. I agree with you that undocumented workers

should be allowed to get driver's licenses. People come to this country because they can get jobs here. Period. Why this should criminalize the worker, is beyond me. The government should not be in the business of making criminals out of these workers - so, of course, they should have dl's.

:hi:

[eleny]

5. I think this issue has no solution

It's another issue that the republicans don't want to resolve. Like abortion they can use it as a "dog whistle" mechanism to get people to the polls and voting R.

I've heard Gov. Richardson cite those statistic before the debate yesterday. So when he talked about them again I thought they'd be noted. But Wolf dropped it like a hot potato. Good news was not allowed.

[Triana]

6. how about...

...we start fining the crap out of companies who hire and exploit undocumented workers so they'll quit coming here and driving here, drunk, unlicensed, or whatever?

Most recently, the EXCUSE that the SS database was unreliable and out of date was used to poo-poo this solution.

Well duh, geniuses. How about fixing the friggin social security database then? GOD KNOWS who is using YOUR social security number illegally. (and frankly, I'm not sure I buy that excuse - employers are greedy and lazy and don't want to check the papers and IDs of the workers - so they come up with an excuse - and if it IS true, then FIX THE FRIGGIN SS database!)

Shit, let's not FIX any problems, let's just build more on top of them, eh? Pfft!

(edit: Donning flameproof suit) - hey, don't we have a :flamesuit: icon? I think we need one.

[crispini]

17. Well, I agree, but that's a federal-level solution.

When the feds won't address a problem, the states try to develop a workaround. It sounds to me like this workaround works for NM.

[Zywiec]

63. I agree that we should fine the crap out of companies that hire illegals

but believe that if that really starts to happen, and the illegals lose their jobs, most will complain about the heavy-handedness of the government. This is a no-win situation. You either want them here or not and will justify some reason for your position.

[LynneSin]

7. BTW, here in Delaware - I know of 2 people that have had the same exact thing

This isn't a Texas issue

[XemaSab]

8. Not only that

but (correct me if I'm wrong) if I go to another country I can drive there, no?

Like if I go to Canada, there's no problem with me, an American, driving around. Or if I go to Mexico I need Mexican insurance, but otherwise it's no big deal, no?

So why should we have a problem with Mexicans driving here? Or getting licences? :shrug:

[LakeSamish706]

11. Just a wee bit of a difference in your logic... I am assuming that you are..

entering Canada legally... That might change things dramatically if we were comparing apples with apples here.

[crispini]

18. That's another possible solution: allow people to drive with a Mexican DL

and allow insurance to be issued on that.

[On the Road]

67. I Like That Solution

The drawback to the Spitzer plan is that the government is on one hand prohibiting illegal immigration and on the other affirming it by issuing licenses. It also enables the immigrants to integrate into society much better. This may be good from a humanitarian point of view, but defeats efforts at immigration control.

Driver's licenses are used for much more than operating vehicles. Allowing Mexican licenses to be used in the US limits the issue to driving and insurance.

[KamaAina]

74. How many poor, rural Mexicans have a Mexican DL?

Driving in Mexico isn't a near-absolute necessity the way it is here. Many of the people who are most likely to immigrate to the U.S. probably don't have a Mexican DL.

Works in principle, though -- except for the lines at the Mexican DMVs as everyone rushes to get one... :scared:

[peace13]

35. If I go to Mexico they will give me a license from Mexico?

I don't think so.

[crispini]

45. No, but they'll let you drive with your American license if you are there as a tourist.

And let you buy insurance -- which you really *should* if you are going to go to Mexico. This would be a good alternative.

Also, if you emigrate to another country, they will issue you some form of state ID, often a DL or other government ID card.

[peace13]

53. Emigrate...the magic word.

If I follow the laws of most countries they will let me in and allow me the privilege of their citizens. Let's make our system work so people can come and register and have those things as well.

[crispini]

54. Exactly. But, again, that's a federal-level fix.

I think that this issuing of ID is a temporary work around on the part of the states.

[momster]

57. Not "Really Should"

Definitely, totally and completely! Get in an accident down there without it and you may be going to jail.

[LakeSamish706]

9. How about putting pressure on the Mexican Govt. to take better care...

of it's own citizens so that the US doesn't have to carry that burden?

[crispini]

21. Yet again, a federal solution.

What are the states to do with lack of leadership by the feds?

Furthermore, they don't get "taken care of" here -- on the contrary, they are getting paid substandard wage and generally getting taken advantage of by their employers.

[EFerrari]

24. What about putting pressure on your own government

to stop helping the conservatives in Mexico steal elections from the progressives who want to do just that?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

83. AND... 'What about putting pressure on your own government'...

to stop ramming through trade agreements that screw workers, whether American or Mexican?

The genie is out of the immigration bottle. Corporate America and our parasitic elected officials DO NOT CARE where labor comes from -- they just want it CHEAP.

[SharkSquid]

10. If they are allowed to get DL's

then they really are not "undocumented" eh?

Then they will be documented and in this country without proper papers...

I don't think it is paranoia, and this is coming from a guy in FL where Immigration is just as much of an issue. and I can tell you that there are plenty of regular ol felons/former inmates on suspended licenses that are a hell of alot more dangerous that Immigrants.

[crispini]

25. I don't really get your point.

:shrug:

[SharkSquid]

30. My Point

Is that if they get the licenses they are reporting themselves. If they are in this country illegally then they should in no way be recieving any sort of official ID from the govt otherwise they are reporting themselves as the illegal workers that they absoloutely must be in order to be considered "undocumented", but thats just how I see it, correct me if I am wrong.

[crispini]

49. Eh, it depends on how you handle it.

Why not have an "A" license that is more like the universal ID we use it for -- can get on planes, etc. Then also have a "B" license that is just good for driving and you don't have to have as much documentation (don't need to get birth cert or SSN, etc.) If everyone is taught the difference between an A license and a B license, no worry.

what's really going on here is that the DL has sort of turned into a state-issued "omni-ID," you know, banks use it, everyone uses it. Seems to me that if there was a kind of DL that was just used for DRIVING -- that is what we want.

[alarimer]

12. My only concern is that having a license does not guarantee that they wil buy insurance

We a lot of uninsured motorists here; whether they are legal or illegal I have no idea. But what is to stop someone from buying insurance just for getting the license or car registration and then letting it expire in a month? That happens a lot now I know. And it may be a totally separate issue.

Also why would someone here illegally want the government to have their address? I don't see that they will actually get those licenses, even if they were allowed to.

[crispini]

29. It looks like according to the experience of NM they will

Posting again: :)

New Mexico last year became the latest state to issue driver's licenses to illegal immigrants, and officials say the change has helped contribute to a drop in the state's uninsured rate, which in December of 2002 was 33 percent the highest in the nation and now is 17 percent. Insurance premiums also have dropped in that state and fewer people are fleeing accident scenes, according to Moran of the National Immigration Law Center. Almost 14,000 of the state's estimated 150,000 illegal immigrants have obtained licenses in the past year.

http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=15696

[VP505]

43. What makes them get

insurance in NM is the fact that police will impound and tow their car away (at least in Abq) if they get caught driving without it. I suspect that gives them more incentive than "following the law" since they didn't follow the law to get here in the first place.

[crispini]

47. Good! I like that law!

You drive you should have insurance.

[The Straight Story]

14. What makes anyone think they will get them anyway when they won't even file to be here

legally :) And even if they do, will they get insurance as well when they don't have to pay for it now or license fees, etc?

[yardwork]

20. Where can an undocumented worker "file to be here legally?"

[crispini]

31. I'm going to repost this...

Sorry if it's getting old :)

New Mexico last year became the latest state to issue driver's licenses to illegal immigrants, and officials say the change has helped contribute to a drop in the state's uninsured rate, which in December of 2002 was 33 percent the highest in the nation and now is 17 percent. Insurance premiums also have dropped in that state and fewer people are fleeing accident scenes, according to Moran of the National Immigration Law Center. Almost 14,000 of the state's estimated 150,000 illegal immigrants have obtained licenses in the past year.

http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=15696

[Sadie4629]

16. Just one question . . .

What about voter registration? My understanding is that all applicants for a driver's license are given the forms to register to vote at the same time. This would mean that people who aren't eligible to vote could be registered. I think there is enough voter fraud already, without enabling more.

[SharkSquid]

34. Exactly

You have a license, that is all you need to register.

[crispini]

39. Well, like Spitzer said, there could be a different kind of license.

When you go to the DPS, you either produce all of your kinds of identification, and get an "A" license, or you don't, and you get a "B" license. The "A" license could be allowable to register to vote, fly, etc. The "B" license, maybe not so much.

[unpossibles]

44. voter fraud? not so much

election fraud? Way too much.

Can you perhaps share some links with me to prove massive evidence of voter fraud? I don't see it happening, other than as a media smoke screen.

[SharkSquid]

52. Hahah

:tinfoilhat:

[crispini]

55. yeah, no links.

Again, please show us links that show the giant plethora of people trying to register to vote. :shrug:

[unpossibles]

66. I suppose making fun of someone without actually discussing the point

or backing up your side is one way to make a point.

Or you could try to be mature about it.

Enjoy your stay here.

[SharkSquid]

70. I have not said that a "giant plethora" had tried to register.

IMHO one person voting when they dont have the right is a huge deal but voter fraud is voter fraud, and voter fraud is certainly PART of election fraud, no?

BTW, isnt "giant plethora" a little repetitive.

[unpossibles]

76. I guess that's almost like an apology

First of all, you responded to the wrong person, I think.

Secondly, yes registering to vote when you are not supposed to/allowed to is wrong. Like when Ann Coulter did it, and like when anyone else does it. But if you can't tell the difference between voter fraud and election fraud, both in scale of numbers and in harm, then perhaps you should research a bit before claiming I am wearing a tinfoil hat.

On other issues, I would not care if you claimed I was a conspiracy theorist, quite honestly - although I am also sick of people not understanding what a conspiracy is, or just how common they really are. It doesn't mean big foot is out there or aliens or any sort of X-files crap, it means simply that two or more people are planning a crime together.

When it comes to election fraud, however, I think it is far too important of an issue to just try to sweep aside without actually trying to use facts to back up your side. If you don't care about the theft of elections using a variety of techniques including but not limited to simply not allowing hundreds of thousands of people to vote, then I think you might need to consider more carefully what you're saying.

I'll gladly provide a lot of links and research to back my point, but am not going to get dragged into that unless you can do the same. If you're just going to call people conspiracy theorists then try to weasel your way out of it, then I have no interest in continuing this discussion. I can hear your version of a debate from any number of people who also don't seem to care and/or somehow find funny the idea that democracy is no longer as necessary as clever marketing and cheating.

[peace13]

56. In Ohio where election fraud runs rampant we have passed laws

to prevent 'voter' fraud. This entails ID at the polls even if the poll worker is your mother, if you do not have ID you will not vote. Go home and get it and I don't care how long you stood in line or if you do not have an ID or a bill with your name and address. The card that the Board of Election sends you with your name and address does not fill this ID requirement. Now go figure. Someday a poll worker will be killed by an angry voter and then the system will break down completely. Peace, Kim

[yardwork]

19. I agree.

Also, I happen to believe that the issue of undocumented workers in the U.S. is overblown and being used as a red herring by a lot of people. Yes, I understand that it is not a good thing to have people in the country illegally. However, they wouldn't be here except for two reasons:

1. The long-time policies of the United States and our allies have made it impossible for a lot of people in the world to survive in their countries of birth, so they have no choice but to leave their families and communities and make a dangerous journey to another country in an effort to make enough money to support themselves and their families.

2. People would not come into the United States to work if there was no work. The brutal fact is that the companies are very happy to hire undocumented workers as it saves the companies a lot of money. Undocumented workers don't get payroll taxes, health insurance benefits, or safe working conditions.

This is a global problem that involves the systemic mistreatment of human beings used for labor.

[crispini]

41. Exactly!

:thumbsup:

[malaise]

22. It's really uncomplicated

Immigration is a federal matter, but safety on the roads is a state issue. The only way states can guarantee insurance protect for citizens on the road is to ensure that every driver has a license and insures his/her vehicle. It's a fugging no brainer, but Rethugs need an issue to whip up their diminishing base. What's more some coward Dems are playing politics.

[peace13]

50. How does a drivers license relate to safety on the road?

How does having a license guarantee the purchase of insurance? Why is it cowardice politics to want visitors to our country to check in and be documented? As Americans we are asked to jump through hoops and report in all kinds of ways. Why is it racist to want everyone to step forward. Our immigration system is in shambles, partly because that is the way the administration wants it to be. Why do we not stand and demand a system to document non-citizens in this country? If we had this the drivers license would be a non issue. Peace, kim

[crispini]

59. Well, you have to pass a test to get a DL.

Having a DL does not guarantee the purchase of insurance, but it enables it. And, as others in this thread have stated, in NM, if you are caught driving without insurance they will impound your car. Which I like.

Why do people come here illegally? Because they can make money and feed their families. There is DEMAND from the people who hire them to hire cheap labor. The solution is not an easy one but most of the solutions are on the federal level: Crack down on employers, work on borders AND maybe make the day-labor program that allows them to work her, more easy to access. The DL thing is a different solution to a different problem, which CAN be applied by the states, in the interim time that the federal government refuses to address the problem.

[malaise]

61. Until the Federal government deals with the immigration problems

which it won't since special interests want cheap labour, ordinary citizens will remain victims. Bottom line: when someone without a license hits your car, go figure who pays. States are supposed to protect their citizens everywhere including on the roads.

It may not be a guarantee of insurance, but there's no insurance without that license and at least that driver can be identified and taken off the road.

[unpossibles]

37. I agree. nt

[peace13]

40. Think about this.

In Ohio we use a drivers license to verify voting rights at the polls. They are used for much more than driving. Try getting on a plane without one. I think handing them out like candy is a mistake.

[crispini]

62. Exactly, this is because the DL has turned into a two-purpose thing.

It's being used everywhere as sort of an all-purpose ID. Why not have two forms, one that can continue to be used in this way, and a "B" form that is just used for what it was intended for -- DRIVING.

I never thought I would say this, but this confusion around the purpose of the DL does make me think that we should at least consider some universal form of citizen's ID, issued at the federal level, that could be used for flying and other purposes where you need to prove identity and/or citizenship at a federal level. That way the DL could go back to being used for its real purpose -- DRIVING.

[peace13]

64. Why not focus on the solution to the real problem.

You keep referring to the immigration problem as a federal problem but it creates state problems. Why don't the states make a stand and get a real solution? Don't create more problems.

[crispini]

65. Would be nice wouldn't it?

That's the Rube Goldberg-esque political system we live in. :eyes: Look at the state of marriage in the various states, for example. Ah, would that it were a perfect world. :D

[slackmaster]

42. How about Texas honoring their driver's licenses from their home countries instead?

That would avoid any possible confusion as to their citizenship.

[crispini]

51. That would work. As long as they could get insurance with that. nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. I support drivers licenses for white male property owners over thirty only.

You can't trust anybody else.

[SharkSquid]

77. Racial Straw Man

again

[librechik]

69. How will this work? I have to show my birth certificate to get my CDL.

What documentation will they show? How will their driving skills be tested? Will it be a special undocumented document for the undocumented? The whole thing is silly.

I believe we should let anyone who comes here to work enter legally. They would on entry get some kind of documentation of foreign worker status. And of course it's safer to have licensed and tested drivers on our roads rather than uninsured outlaws.

How would this ever work, since there is so much incentive to stay undocumented?

I can't say whether it's a good thing or a bad thing without more specifics, and neither can the candidates.

[crispini]

71. Well, yeah, that's better.

Fix the root of the problem. Indeed. :thumbsup:

[crispini]

73. Thanks for the discussion, all!

This was a very civil thread! :hi:

[hiphopnation]

75. i agree n/t

[Disturbed]

82. Utah has a DL policy, as well. It seems that various States

will try different approaches to this situation. Spitzer didn't present this
concept very well. A DL does not mean a person can use it to vote or board an airplane. I feel that all vehicle owners should have to register their vehicles & posses, at the least, Liability Insurance.
I feel that there will be more States that will put some form of DL into practice. After a long winded explanation Senator Obama did say "Yes" that he favors a DL policy for UWs.

[nonconformist]

80. I was the victim of a hit and run several years ago

There were several witnesses, and one man followed the woman that hit me, got her plate number, then when she stopped at a light he talked to her and told her he had her info, so she might as well come back to the scene. She did. She was an American citizen, who fled the scene because her license was suspended.

It happens ALL THE TIME. People panic and take off, even when they're licensed and insured.

That said, an illegal immigrant even WITH a license is likely to flee the scene, simply because of his illegal status. I don't think that would solve this particular issue.

[Didereaux]

84. Over 70% of the American voters strongly oppose! Dems support-Dems lose the general! n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. I'm in the country illegally. Should I go to the DMV and leave a residential address...?

or go on driving illegally, as I've been doing since I've been here?

Choices. Choices.

[AtomicKitten]

86. Having lived many years in San Diego, I completely agree.