Papal encyclical attacks atheism, lauds hope

[shain from kane]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071130/wl_nm/pope_encyclical_dc


VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict, in an encyclical released on Friday, said atheism was responsible for some of the "greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice" in history.

The 75-page "Spe Salvi," which takes its Latin title from a quote by St Paul (in hope we were saved), is an appeal to a pessimistic world to find strength in Christian hope.

In the second encyclical of his papacy, Benedict urges Christians to put their hope for the future in God and not in technology, wealth or political ideologies.

Atheism could be regarded by some as a "type of moralism," particularly in the 19th and 20th centuries, to protest against the injustices of the world and world history, he said.
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History has proven wrong ideologies such as Marxism which say humans had to establish social justice because God did not exist, the Pope wrote.

"It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice," the Pope said. Such a concept was grounded in "intrinsic falsity".
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The Pope seemed to be addressing the fresh interest in atheism in the developed world with phrases such as: "Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope."
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That last sentence seems to bolster the argument that man created God, rather than God created man.

[hobbit709]

1. So I guess the Inquisition

was run by atheists disguised as priests?

[Buzz Clik]

2. He said some, not all.

[Turbineguy]

3. The Pope

should ride an encyclical to his office.

[Buzz Clik]

5. Interesting concept. It would certainly improve his carbon footprint.

[Buzz Clik]

4. So, atheists attack Catholicism in general and the pope specifically on a daily basis...

... and that's okay. But when the pope returns fire, well, he must be a f***ing Catholic.

[shain from kane]

6. The Pope has a worldwide organization that attacks atheists on a daily basis. I believe

the atheists are outnumbered.

[spoony]

9. But not out-shouted, it would seem.

[Goblinmonger]

24. Yes

the atheists of the world have equal power to the Roman Fucking Catholic Church.

Do you really believe what you are saying or do you just spout off about atheists every chance you can find?

[spoony]

26. Power isn't equal to volume

And some of you lot are so hilariously (imo) obsessed with your proselytising and spend so much time on things you don't believe in that it has inevitably come to pass that the "New Atheists" are heard in today's culture far out of proportion to their actual numbers.

Just like the other side of the coin, the Concerned Family Values Patriots Brigades that claim a great deal more importance and heft than they possess.

[Buzz Clik]

10. I believe that the pope is commenting in atheism, not atheists.

Somebody needs to climb down from their cross.

[shain from kane]

14. The Catholics are the ones that still maintain Christ on the cross through the crucifix.

Many other Christians, including me, contrary to your assumption that I am an atheist, show the cross only. The whole point is that the suffering is over, and He has conquered death.

[SpiralHawk]

34. Pope Ratzinger can crawl down off his pedestal

That's for sure...

Talk about Blatant Hypocricy...

He's as bad as Bush and all the republicons pointing their fingers at others.

Get the beam out of your own corporate-institutional eye, Mr. Pope.

[Buzz Clik]

40. That's right, "Benedict"! You have no right to state your opinions about anything.

Take your stupid hat and popemobile and form your own country! err...

[SpiralHawk]

45. Nah, that ain't it. Just don't be a hypocrite, Pope

Your vast and rich bureacracy has done as much evil as good in the world. So, Pope, own your own shadow rather than pointing fingers at others.

[Buzz Clik]

50. Ok. I'll give you that one.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. I'm an atheist who's never attacked Catholicism in general.

The Vatican, certainly, the Popenfuhrer most definitely.

And the both had it coming.

[Postman]

19. Yes that powerhouse atheist lobby is oppressing the minority Christian movement.

please.

[Buzz Clik]

38. Look, I didn't start this whining session.

Please yourself.

[heidler1]

27. As the main Christian I thought the Pope is supposed to turn the other cheek?

If and when the Christians ever start practicing what they preach the march toward Humanism will be less necessary. Maybe they figure Christ didn't say "Turn the other cheek", it was just Jesus that said it. Who was it that died on the cross? Who's birthday is on 12/25 Jesus or Christ? Maybe Jesusmas don't have the right ring tone to sell stuff with?

[Buzz Clik]

39. Well, that was incoherent.

My point above remains -- the Popester was commenting on atheism, not atheists.

[shain from kane]

42. Is he willing to pay reparations to all the atheist families that his church and its

agents have destroyed over the centuries? The church has stolen their wealth, in many cases, and from the Jewish families that have been destroyed. It still retains that wealth, and without it, its mission would fail, it would be a much smaller institution, and the newspapers and television would probably ignore him and his messages.

[Buzz Clik]

43. Why would he do that?

I'm pretty sure you and I are not talking about the same thing.

[shain from kane]

44. So you don't believe that the church has unjustly enriched itself on the backs of atheists, Jews,

pagans, and others over the centuries by condemning them to death and confiscating their property? It certainly wouldn't exist in its present form, and the current Pope would be a footnote in history, largely ignored by the media without his platform. What we see now is the culmination of what has gone before. Are you proud of the church's history? Or am I to assume that you somehow believe its past actions, and inactions, to be the divine will of God?

[Dorian Gray]

47. The "main" Christian?

I think that there are millions (or billions) of Christians out there who may disagree with that qualification. Hell, I'm RC, and I disagree with that. There is no "main" Christian. And what's this Jesus or Christ thing?

[no_hypocrisy]

7. "atheism was responsible for some of the 'greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice' in

history".

Talk about classic Freudian projectionism.

[northernsoul]

8. My first thought as well

Beyond the fallacies contained in the quoted snippet, this institution is among the last on earth to be lecturing anybody about morality.

[alarimer]

13. I want some specific examples.

As far as I know, most of them were committed by the religious. The Crusades, the Inquisition. I'll give him Stain, if he will a acknowledge Hitler.

[AuntPatsy]

15. I would like to see such compared as well, but of course it won't happen by those guys....

and the blind followers of such rediculous people will not seek any further evidence other than what they are told, pathetic.

[no_hypocrisy]

16. Oh yeah, that Robert Green Ingersoll, a known mass murderer, ate children for

breakfast, the Pope must be right . . .

:sarcasm:


(Robert Green Ingersoll's) radical views on religion, slavery, woman's suffrage, and other issues of the day effectively prevented him from ever pursuing or holding political offices higher than that of state attorney general. Illinois Republicans tried to pressure him into running for governor on the condition that Ingersoll conceal his agnosticism during the campaign, which he refused on the basis that concealing information from the public was immoral.

Many of Ingersoll's speeches advocated freethought and humanism, and often poked fun at religious belief. For this the press often attacked him, but neither his views nor the negative press could stop his rising popularity. At the height of Ingersoll's fame, audiences would pay $1 or more to hear him speak, a giant sum for his day.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_G._Ingersoll

[GodlessBiker]

11. Atheism may be "responsible for some," but theism is responsible for all the rest.

[northernsoul]

18. Unreasonable Dogma is responsible for 100%

Dogma, religious or otherwise, is the true enemy of humanity.

[Postman]

17. And on the eighth day, man created God....

What about agnostics?

I don't know how ANY human can say with absolute certainty that there is a God.

You can hope there is one but the truth is no one knows.

But we CAN say for certain that religion has been the cause of many peoples' deaths over the ages.

[brooklynite]

20. Have any of the proponents of this idiocy...

ever pointed to an action or behavior which can be uniquely attributable to atheism?

[klatu]

21. The pope had better watch his back..............

Whatever the fashionable publishing successes of evolutionary biologists and atheists such as Dr. Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and friends, their impact on religion is superficial at best. Like intellectual suicide bombers, their target is unperturbed and they achieve little; yet the unquestioned veracity of their criticism is a timely reminder of the contradictions and unresolved questions and doubts inhabiting the ‘religious’ milieu. Yet atheism is also unable to resolve the BIG God question.

The true origins of Christianity are heavily obscured. History remains unconvinced exactly what 'revelation' was passed on by Jesus two thousand years ago. Thus do three competing monotheisms exist and growing secularization. And the pope is no more able to to demonstrate the RCC claim to speak in the name of Christ or God than is the man in the moon.

But in true subversive style, a new Christian truth claim has been quietly spreading on the web that could change the entire nature of religion, blowing theology and the whole of 'christian' history, including the pope, right out of the water.

If this new Christian teaching is authenticated in sufficient numbers to make this new truth claim irrefutable fact, and given the growing number of sites and links for downloading this teaching, and growing antidotal evidence of confirmations, one may surely assume this process is under way, the implications defy imagination!

And that is the difference between the historical faith paradigm and this new interpretation of the moral teachings of Christ. This new truth claim is not to be 'accepted' on faith but tested by faith. Apodictic certainty may now be possible. Expect theological, ecclesiastic and atheist feathers to fly. It's beginning to look like the whole of history may have got it badly wrong! Related links:

http://www.energon.org.uk
http://thefinalfreedoms.bulldoghome.com
http://www.dunwanderinpress.org
http://thefinalfreedoms.blogspot.com/

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. "Yet atheism is also unable to resolve the BIG God question."

You mean, if God doesn't exist how come there's presents under the tree X-mas morning?

"The true origins of Christianity are heavily obscured."

Uh, maybe.

"History remains unconvinced exactly what 'revelation' was passed on by Jesus two thousand years ago."

History remains unconvinced if there was ever a Jesus.

"But in true subversive style, a new Christian truth claim has been quietly spreading on the web that could change the entire nature of religion, blowing theology and the whole of 'christian' history, including the pope, right out of the water."

Does this have something to do with that Tom Hanks movie about the albino?

[Goblinmonger]

23. The pope

can kiss my fat, white ass.

Way to speak in vague generalities while providing no specific examples. Pretty smart talk from the head of an organization responsible for several Inquisitions, Witch Burnings, and numerous pogroms not to mention the horrible guidance provided in third world countries re: prevention of sexually transmitted diseases.

[NMMNG]

25. Can you say "projection"?

I knew you could.

[DemGa]

28. "Let us put it very simply: man needs God, otherwise he remains without hope."

I agree with this statement. Without God, let's face it, we are on a tiny blue speck in the middle of nowhere, which will itself be incinerated one day. We are in effect, bookended by nothingness. Indeed,the situation is one of hopelessness without God.

Of course, you may see proceeding from nothing into nothing differently.

[shain from kane]

29. Then we are free to evolve to something beyond man. Rather than being without hope, can't we wish

for something beyond "this tiny blue speck in the middle of nowhere" that has stifled our transcendance? Without the help of the supernatural?

[Book Lover]

31. Let me show you my perspective, please

You say, "Without God, let's face it, we are on a tiny blue speck in the middle of nowhere, which will itself be incinerated one day."

I say that our tiny blue speck is only tiny when you look at it from thousands of miles away. Right now, from where I sit, I can see the mighty Pacific Ocean and the never-ending horizon. if I began to walk east from my spot here, it would take me months to reach the opposite shore. Not too tiny to my way of thinking.

The middle of nowhere? Hey, we are in the middle of the universe! We are in the middle of, literally, everything and everywhere.

Yes, Sol will go nova someday and expand to incinerate the inner planets, of which Earth, sadly, is one. But before that day dawns, we might have stretched forth our hands and set foot on other worlds where our lives and cultures can continue to live and grow. It's a good goal to have, I feel.

[RandomKoolzip]

32. Specifically: hope of what? Hope FROM what?

What does the word "hope" mean to you, in this specific context?

To the existentialists, the realization that god doesn't exist was empowering. How brave it is to walk the tightrope of life without the net of a deity underneath you! To live without god takes courage.

Yes, we are on a tiny speck of life in a vast sea of nothingness, completely abandoned, on our own. This realization doesn't fill me with despair; rather it emboldens my belief that humanity must protect and preserve this tenuous thing called life while we can, and do our best to evolve into something greater than we already are before the sun dies out - because there IS no backup plan.

However, as an atheist, I would like to hear a believer's definition of "hope" in this specific context - because it seems as though the hope you're referring to is the hope for everlasting life, which I think we can all acknowledge is a fictional, man-made construct.

I have to say that even though I do not believe in a deity, I have a large reserve of what *I* consider to be "hope." I KNOW that the lives of the poor can be improved, I KNOW that life is not meaningless (although it would also be nice to know what a believer's definition of "meaning" is too, since mine seems to differ from yours), and neither suffering nor delight are permanent, but both are precious. I know that life isn't a downward spiral of pain, and I know our lives, as a collective, can be improved if we all play our parts while our individual consciousnesses are still extant and sensitive to the needs of other...Because our consciousnesses and our corporeal selves are all we really have.

In any case, the Pope needs to reserve judgment for his followers; us atheists, because we do not regard him as any kind of authority, are unlikely to be swayed by threats.

[DemGa]

49. Okay

Hope in this context is simply the difference between ultimate nothingness and a spiritual reality, of which I believe.

I've read plenty of existential thought, and admire it really. My opinion is that true faith only can be found after its own deconstruction. It can be a difficult process--mine leads me to spirituality.

As for evolving into something greater, this is admirable and I'm for it; but I fail to see how this changes the original scenario.

For what it's worth, I don't recognize the Pope as any authority either, I only agreed with the particular statement.

[hatrack]

46. Yes, we're on a tiny blue speck in the middle of nowhere

Deal with it.

[DemGa]

48. I will deal with it in my own way

now you deal with it in yours, okay?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. Christianity isn't a political ideology?? Since when?

"Benedict urges Christians to put their hope for the future in God and not in technology, wealth or political ideologies."

I suggest Herr Benedict read the words of Jesus and the history of the Catholic Church to see how a-political Christianity was/is.

[malaise]

33. Well atheism is a threat to his bank balance

Popey needs our money and as many gullible peeps as he can find.

[shain from kane]

36. People, don't put your hope in wealth, yet he represents one of the wealthiest

institutions in the world.


"In the second encyclical of his papacy, Benedict urges Christians to put their hope for the future in God and not in technology, wealth or political ideologies."

[heidler1]

54. The Pope sells faith in his Church, but it's a tough sell when the Church is loaded

with child abusing sexually sick leaders. It takes a lot of contributions to pay for this abuse. It takes a lot of nerve to be a hope a dope pope when the finger of guilt is pointed back at yourself. Sure mankind desperately needs decent leaders, until we find one we don't need pretense.

[pscot]

35. Dogs are the most hopeful creatures on earth

and the only answer they want from god, is whether he's going to eat that whole sandwich by himself.

[Bill McBlueState]

37. none of this really addresses the question

Do any gods actually exist?

If the answer is no, then it doesn't matter what kind of social effect atheism has. Any belief that the number of gods is greater than zero would be incorrect, and thus not a good belief to have.

[shain from kane]

41. Since the Catholics absorbed the pagan system, and followed the feast days, and the naming of

multiple gods through saints, and the Holy Trinity, and with the rise in rank granted to the Virgin Mary, they are not true monotheists.

[SidDithers]

51. Who cares what the Pope thinks...

he grows more and more irrelevant with each passing day.

Sid

[Solly Mack]

52. ::raspberry::

[karlrschneider]

53. Fuck a bunch of popes. Never has been one worth a goddamn piece of shit.

:puke: